Help! Neon won't start

[cordes]

Our 97' ATX SOHC neon was running fine on the way to pick up the GF. I stopped to pick her up, and turned the car off. I noticed that she was standing in the doorway and quickly turned the car back on. It chugged and died. It will only do that now. I am wondering if the slowing motor being hit quickly by the starter could have caused it to jump a tooth?

I reset the codes by pulling the fuel pump fues, and tried to start it again, and the code 11 is now gone, but it still dies out almost instantly, and won't run well at all. Is that a dead giveaway that it is the timing belt?

Thanks for all the help, I need this car running so we can get to work tomrrow :(

[deuce dodge]

pop distrib cap and make sure its all there and spinning ok might also want to try reseting comp (if that works on new cars )

sounds like maybe a belt tooth........its an easy belt to do and check....just like ours.....kinda sort of :)

deuce

[shadow88]

You know from doing the cam seal that repairing it on the spot is almost impossible.

Plugs wet with gas? no codes, right?

I'm going out on a limb and going to suggest using a screwdriver to try to pull the egr diaphragm closed (towards the head) It's an easy thing to attempt. IF that's it, remove the egr hose and plug it until you can get an egr valve.

[cordes]

So you are saying that the EGR valve might be causing this? Why would I get a code 11 from the EGR?

[shadow88]

My mistake. I thought code 11 was an older code. No an egr will not set code 11.

Code 11 can be caused by cam/crank out of sync. or cam sensor signal fault or crank sensor signal fault. Sorry for the confusion.

[cordes]

I tested the EGR valve and it looked great. However, I turned the key and the FP wouldn't prime. The car was doing the same thing in the lot at the school with the not priming, but I was focused on the code 11 at the time. I never reset the PCM after I removed the timing belt the last time, so perhaps that kept the code 11 in there? Could any of the sensors dying cause the car to not want to prime the pump after the PCM was reset?

Is the parts store fuel pump just as good as the next one?

[Turbodave]

If the neons are like our older cars they won't energize the ASD circuit if they don't see crank rotation (your code 11), so I would start down that route before blaming the fuel pump.



Timing belt skipped 1 tooth or more from initial learned value;
Intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position sensor;
No crank reference signal detected during engine cranking

Sounds like the timing belt may have jumped from your description.

[shadow88]

If I were you, I'd clear the codes with a battery disconnect for a few minutes, while it's off, I'd push in the fuel rail shrader valve to releive any fuel pressure. Re connect battery. Then attempt to restart. The battery disconnect will clear the codes and allow the computer to attempt a new fuel pump re-prime. Fuel pressure gagues would be preferred (44 psi) but a shrader valve poke will be fine too.

If it's not starting, check for the presense of fuel pressure, and then re check codes. I good 10 second crank time should help to set any codes.

[cordes]

Thanks guys. I think I am off to bed tonight. I will just take the omni in the morning. It is not running the best, but it should do well enough to get the job done. I will check the cam timing and the FP tomorrow night. Thanks again.

[deuce dodge]

this may make me look silly so what....i am silly :)

go to pik n pay n pull a distributor and take wires and cap .........whole thang.

unplug yours........install pik n pay set up....if it fix problem woooooooohooooooooooooo

if not ya have a back up.....yikes only a TM person would say that........that will diagnose entire assmbly in one fell swoop..........i had same problem..........and it wasdist. bearing....would never have found problem without swap peice for peice.........and i use dialectric grease at couplers......maybe a bad idea.....works for me

deuce

[cordes]

The neons don't have a distributor.

[JDAWG]

I have sold a few coil packs for those as well as asd relays, id is getting spark?

[cordes]

I have sold a few coil packs for those as well as asd relays, id is getting spark?

I honestly don't know. I will have to check that tonight when I go out there. Thanks for the suggestions. I would really hate to tear it all apart only to find out that it wasn't the cam timing.

[deuce dodge]

sorry bro .......having done at least one head gasket on neon i should have remembered...:)

deuce

[shadow88]

Normally, I'd edit my last post, but I don't think Cordes would notice the change. The only think I would do differently is to read the code with a proper scanner and record it before disconnecting the battery. This could save you alot of time and grief.

[cordes]

OK, I just got back in from outside.

The FP still won't prime.

I cranked it over for some time and there are still no codes since I pulled the FP fuse the other night.

I checked the FP fuse and it is good.

I took the FP relay, AC relay, and ASD relay and flip flopped them around since they are all the same PN. That did nothing for me.

I pulled the inspection plug on the cam cover, and the belt is still on there, but that is all I could see (that and the fact that it did not sound like there was any interference at all would lead me to believe the belt is still in loop form).

I used a scanner I forgot I had lying around and there were no codes, I pulled them by using the Key on, key off method and only got 12 and 55.

I pressed in on the schrader valve and there was NO fuel that came out of it at all.

I checked for spark and it was there, although the plugs all look rather fouled.

In conclusion, I believe that the code 11 was caused by the misfire adaptive beyond limit business judging by the look of the plugs, and that my FP crapped out on my in a spectacularly sudden way. Any other thoughts for what to test before I pull the FP out and replace it?

Thanks guys, you have all been a huge help.

[shadow88]

OK, I just got back in from outside.

I pressed in on the schrader valve and there was NO fuel
In conclusion, I believe that the code 11 was caused by the misfire adaptive beyond limit business judging by the look of the plugs, and that my FP crapped out on my in a spectacularly sudden way. Any other thoughts for what to test before I pull the FP out and replace it?

Thanks guys, you have all been a huge help.

Key on engine off, remove the fuel pump relay cover and jump the relay with your fingers. If the pump is not working, remove the connector and check for power and ground at the pump while you have someone else hold the relay closed(the outside wires??) I think the 2 middle ones are for the sending unit.

[cordes]

Thanks. I will run out ther eand give that a go in a couple of minutes.

[cordes]

OK, I just checked the wiring to the pump. When I jump the relay the pump won't normally come on. It did come on a couple of times intermitantly, but I tried jostling all the wires, and I really don't think that it is a wiring issue unless the two middle wires on the FP connecotor are indeed for the sending unit.

I got 10.45V to the purple wire in the FP connector. Both the grounds are good, but there was not any voltage from the green wire with the white tracer. I really hope that wasn't the one for the FP. If it is, I think I have a wiring problem somewhere.

[shadow88]

Black wire- ground
Black with light green - ground (for the level unit)
Dark Blue- fuel level sensor signal
Dark green with White- Fuel pump relay output.

[cordes]

OK, that really helps. Now, I just read over on neons.org that the ASD relay will only energize the FP for the few seconds to prime the pump unless it is cranking. Could my test be invalid by just jumping the FP relay with the key in the run position if the car is not being cranked or ran? Should I jump the ASD relay while jumping the FP relay to ensure that power will get to the plug at the pump regardless?

[shadow88]

OK, that really helps. Now, I just read over on neons.org that the ASD relay will only energize the FP for the few seconds to prime the pump unless it is cranking. Could my test be invalid by just jumping the FP relay with the key in the run position if the car is not being cranked or ran? Should I jump the ASD relay while jumping the FP relay to ensure that power will get to the plug at the pump regardless?

That's why I suggested have someone hold the relay closed when the relay cover is removed. The asd relay will be energised with the key in the on position. I suppose jumping the fuel pump relay with a wire would be fine, I just like using the relay so you know you're jumping the correct terminals.

[cordes]

I would certainly have someone else crank it for me, but I don't have anyone else right now. The GF is out of town until Tuesday. I just read what seems to be a great post over on neons.org in which it was suggested to jump terminals 30 and 87 on both the ASD relay, and the FP relay so that the ASD will constantly feed power to the FP relay, and that will then feed power to the pump. If that checks out, but the pump won't run it should definitely be the pump.

[cordes]

OK, after jumping both the ASD relay and the FP relay from 30 to 87 on both of them I am still not getting any voltage to the pump.

When I jump the ASD relay I get voltage pin 30 for the FP relay, so I know that is not the problem now.

Where should I start looking to track down this problem?

[cordes]

After doing some more testing, I decided that it was the power feed to the pump. Knowing that I would have to rip the whole car apart to get the wire fixed I just ran a new one, and it works great now.

Thanks to everyone for their help. :thumb:

[shadow88]

Glad it's up and running.

[JDAWG]

sweet