FD options for L bodie

[slasky]

I am thinking about putting an OBX in my 555. I know I have to change the ring gear and output shaft and there are a few options. What would work best for my set up?

[MiniMopar]

I think the only ratios for the A520 were 3.50 and 3.85. I've actually never seen a 3.85 in an A520, but I do have an A523 with it. The 3.50 ratio is nice in my Daytona and I imagine it would be even better in a lighter car.

[WickedShelby88]

I second the taller ratio working better in a lighter car. I could walk a lot of cars just in first gear in my SVO. I remember doing my 0-60 time and getting it at least as quick as 6 seconds all in 1st gear:D

[tryingbe]

A555 or A568 gear ratio is horrible in my GLH. I hated it for daily driving and freeway driving.

Mainly because the GLH uses 195/50/R15 tires while my 89 Daytona Shelby uses 205/55/R16 from my 89 Daytona. That's almost 10% difference there!!! Second is weight, even though it had a Phantom Grip extreme in there, traction was always an issue with only 6psi. I was using a 2.5L and Kumho tires. (no more Kumho tires for me, by the way)

I'm building a A520/A555 with OBX LSD for my GLH so I can get the 3.5FD and LSD in there.


I like the 3.85FD in my Daytona just fine.

[MiniMopar]

I had a stock A568 in my CSX for a long time with the stock 205/50 tires. While it was fun to use 5th gear as a passing gear, it was not a very practical setup. 1st gear was pretty much useless due to traction.

Our motors are torquey by nature. The 2.2 in the Daytona has no problem coming out of the hole with the A568/523 hybrid with 3.50:1. You just need a good clutch. :D

[tryingbe]

I like the 2.5L in my Daytona better than the 2.2L I had. 1500rpm cruising is possible and engine won't complain.

But then, I am comparing a 70k short block to a 130k short block.

[Pat]

What rpm are you crossing the line at? If you're running 23" slicks, and doing 110-112 trap speeds, you're out of usable rpm with the 3.85 gear in 4th. Without doing the math, you're probably crossing at around 5800.

[MiniMopar]

I like the 2.5L in my Daytona better than the 2.2L I had. 1500rpm cruising is possible and engine won't complain.

But then, I am comparing a 70k short block to a 130k short block.

My only grip with my setup is the lag until about 4k. I can launch it hard and deal with it, but I don't like to do that at every stop light. The new turbo and exhaust mani will solve that, hopefully. :eyebrows:

[slasky]

What rpm are you crossing the line at? If you're running 23" slicks, and doing 110-112 trap speeds, you're out of usable rpm with the 3.85 gear in 4th. Without doing the math, you're probably crossing at around 5800.

I think you are pretty close. I usually end up spinning the slicks through first gear in low boost. So I think a gear change would give me more usable power.

[moparzrule]

Running 205/50 tires in the shadow I was out of usable RPM at the end of the 1/4 with a 2.5L, wasn't pulling much the last couple hundred feet, I was about right at 6000 RPM. Now, with a 2.2L they like to pull to 6500+ so I'm sticking with the 3:85 since I went back a 2.2L myself because at the end of the 1/4 that will be about where it's making it's peak power so I'll probably pull a few more MPH out of it and some ET.
I don't mind turning 3000 RPM on the highway, it's a better RPM to start at. I remember the 520 in my old daytona, 4th to fifth gear was a huge drop, I think I was at like 2200 in 5th on the highway. You have to wind out 4th to 110-115 before shifting into 5th to keep it in the good RPM band.
My shadow is not my daily driver so I don't care about mileage too much would rather have a better pulling 5th gear.

[Speedeuphoria]

Personally for FWD and 300WHP+ I'm all for a lower gear ratio, since traction is a huge factor, and especially if street driving with street tires. Thats what the turbo's for , torque, it will still move you. Also if you want to get technical about I think the lower gearing creates more load so slightly faster spool which=more torque so its a win win

[87glhs232]

LOVE love love my 568/OBX 3.50 FD in the GLHS. Nearly no car around here can match my 2/3/4 pulls. With the steeper FD and OBX traction out of the hole has improved unbelievably. In fact I was just telling someone today that I find it hard to ... ahh... warm the tires on the street. Unless I REALLY dump it.

[rbryant]

I put a 3.77 FD in my 568/OBX combo. I think it is a good compramize for the lbody with a 2.2/2.5.

Now that I am switching to the SRT engine in the future perhaps I should have goen with the 3.50 FD.

Everyone should really consider a newer 523 with a 3.50 FD swapped in. The newer 523 gears are stronger than the older ones and give you a ratio that is just a touch higher than the 568gears with 3.77 FD but not as high as the 568 with 3.50FD.

Plus 523 parts are easy to find and cheap.

-Rich

[iTurbo]

I have an A568 w/ 3.50 FD and OBX in my big heavy Spirit R/T and it really doesn't bother me at all. It takes some getting used to, but getting to 40 MPH in 1st gear is pretty nice. Car really stretches it's legs. Cruises at about 2500 RPM @ 75 MPH.

[Juggy]

im running 2.2 and keeping the stock 3.85 fd.....if I went down it would only be to a 3.77 shaft. Unless your running 2.5L theres no need to go down to 3.50fd...your just gonna kill the top end power of your 2.2 in 4th and 5th gear!

I guess it all comes down to tire ratio etc....if your running smaller tires you can get away running the longer gears...

[MiniMopar]

Umm, what top end power? Our cars tend to have wide power bands from 3500-5000 or so. Unless you have a well-ported head and an aggressive cam or DOHC, winding it out to 7k is usually just a waste of time.

Being able to use that bottom-end grunt for as long as possible works well for me. I have 2.2s only and had 3.85:1 in the CSX for years. I did not like it at all. Was always looking for 6th. 1st gear was useless and 2nd was a way to spin the tires fast enough to nail 3rd and finally bite. Now 1st gear actually does something and it's great!

[Speedeuphoria]

im running 2.2 and keeping the stock 3.85 fd.....if I went down it would only be to a 3.77 shaft. Unless your running 2.5L theres no need to go down to 3.50fd...your just gonna kill the top end power of your 2.2 in 4th and 5th gear!

I guess it all comes down to tire ratio etc....if your running smaller tires you can get away running the longer gears...

In an NA motor yes, but the 2.2 8 valve normally still makes more torque then HP so lower gearing is better IMO

[moparzrule]

Umm, what top end power? Our cars tend to have wide power bands from 3500-5000 or so. Unless you have a well-ported head and an aggressive cam or DOHC, winding it out to 7k is usually just a waste of time.


:confused: 3500-5000 RPM? Even a bone stock 2.2 I shift around 6000 RPM, and a stock T2 turbo has full boost around 2800 RPM on a stock setup.
My 300 WHP 2.2 had full boost from a super 70 at 3200 RPM and I shifted at 6700 RPM, and that was still a stage 1 turbine, stock valve head (yes ported though), stock unported 2 piece intake, and stock cam. Lots of more upper RPM power could have been had.
My 2.5L ran out of steam about 6K RPM.
My newest 2.2 build I fully intend to be shifting around 7200, and it should have full boost around 3500-3600 or so, maybe a hair more with the cam. I have a stage 3 turbine turbo, and one of Simon's super 60 roller cams.

[powermaxx]

I like my 3.50 FD 555/520 hybrid in the GLHS. I run on the street with no issues at all on the 205-50 Falken's (got to watch it though as I can break them loose anytime I want :D). I have TU clutch setup and it has very light pedal pressure also.
I did this to get some better gearing off the line. Seemed to work okay with the taller 225-50 Hoosier DOT stickies and I installed an OBX at the same time. I launch at 5200rpm (side stepping the clutch at the track) and shift at 6200rpm. No spin at all. :thumb: Trap speed is 115mph and I still have a bit of RPM left (I don't look at the tach as I'm usually chasing my competition so I'm focused on them and the finish line. :D) I love to fender race!

[MiniMopar]

In stock form, these motors start to fall on their face much above 5k, especially those running a Mitsu...2.2 or not. That's just reality. The 2.5s are even worse and there are a lot more of those running around than T2s. Tall gears can make the most of it. Sure, with a Super 70 and a ported head you can wind it up, but a lot of folks are stuck with what they got.

I just remember my 88 Shadow would be screaming at 6k but hardly accelerating. It's like it was saying "shift you moron!"

[cordes]

im running 2.2 and keeping the stock 3.85 fd.....if I went down it would only be to a 3.77 shaft. Unless your running 2.5L theres no need to go down to 3.50fd...your just gonna kill the top end power of your 2.2 in 4th and 5th gear!

I guess it all comes down to tire ratio etc....if your running smaller tires you can get away running the longer gears...

Tell that to the inumerable people who have gone quicker in the 1/4 with a hybrid trans. I wish I had a numerically lower FD at 12PSI in an omni. Granted I have a bit of work done, but I don't get any traction until I'm in 3rd gear at that boost level.

[moparzrule]

In stock form, these motors start to fall on their face much above 5k, especially those running a Mitsu...2.2 or not. That's just reality. The 2.5s are even worse and there are a lot more of those running around than T2s. Tall gears can make the most of it. Sure, with a Super 70 and a ported head you can wind it up, but a lot of folks are stuck with what they got.

I just remember my 88 Shadow would be screaming at 6k but hardly accelerating. It's like it was saying "shift you moron!"


Not sure what was wrong with your shadow, but my 88' shadow ES, stock mitsu, only mods I had was a grainger at 14 PSI, and a stock T2 rad/ic. STOCK exhaust, it pulled fine to about 5500 RPM and had full boost well before 3000. After I put the 3'' exhaust on (stock downpipe, no cat, ultraflow muffler out the back) it spooled by 2500 and it pulled good to 5800 RPM.
To say 3500-5000 is like saying you have the spoolup of a large hybrid and the choke point of a mitsu! If you said 2500-5500, thats a mitsu's range. 3000-6000 for a stock T2 (on a stock engine).
My whole point is for some reason you are only saying we have a 1500 RPM power band when we have atleast a 3000 RPM power band on a stock engine, and more when modded. Even comparing that to a high rev engine, lets take the honda B18C1. Vtec kicks in a little after 5000 RPM, and they shift about 8K, right there 3000 RPM power band it's just higher up. And our tranny's even stock are geared way higher than theirs so it evens out.

[MiniMopar]

Well, I guess you are making my point for me. Thanks. All I was saying was that our power bands are low and wide and so we benefit from taller gears. Yes, my Mitsu hit full boost below 2500.

[moparzrule]

Than why would you say 3500-5000? 2500-5500 makes more sense, and is double what you said.

[moparzrule]

Oh and when I said geared higher, I meant higher, which is *numerically* lower. Our trannies are geared much higher than a honda's already.

[Juggy]

Umm, what top end power? Our cars tend to have wide power bands from 3500-5000 or so. Unless you have a well-ported head and an aggressive cam or DOHC, winding it out to 7k is usually just a waste of time.

Being able to use that bottom-end grunt for as long as possible works well for me. I have 2.2s only and had 3.85:1 in the CSX for years. I did not like it at all. Was always looking for 6th. 1st gear was useless and 2nd was a way to spin the tires fast enough to nail 3rd and finally bite. Now 1st gear actually does something and it's great!


thats a pretty narrow power band for a TD.....im aiming from the 3500-7000RPM range.....my car will be able to rev, so Id rather make use of ALL of 4th gear at the track..on the 24.5" slicks....im not worried about street racing around here, its a $5K fine and impoundment, loose your ride and liscence for a week....

besides....a longer gear ONLY helps traction..WHEN YOU NEED IT....if I have a problem spinning the 24.5 x 8" slicks with the 3.85 fd I will find something to help tame all that power...."shadow" on the TD boards ran his 10 second pass with the STOCK 3.85 gear...and he told me that the 3.50 just slowed him down 4-5mph at the far end of the track :nod: so im not tooo worried ATM since I wont be running that fast anytime soon....or anytime for that matter :o

[Juggy]

Tell that to the inumerable people who have gone quicker in the 1/4 with a hybrid trans. I wish I had a numerically lower FD at 12PSI in an omni. Granted I have a bit of work done, but I don't get any traction until I'm in 3rd gear at that boost level.


are these people running slicks, are they gettin traction to both wheels???? granted a low mod car could make use of the gearing potential since it cant rev like a modded motor....but I plan to be screaming through the traps in 4th close to 7K RPM with the A568 trans and traction to BOTH wheels...if I had a hybrid id be too fast to stay in 3rd, and wouldnt be able to max out 4th.....

besides....I bet you a car at 6K RPM hyrbid trans wont be doing much more MPH than I would be doing at 7K in my stock 3.85 gear....if I break out the calculator I could give you exact #s....

like i said it all comes down to what you what, what your cars capable of rev wise....and if its a track or street car......I could care less about the MPG savings with the longer gear, my car was built for racing, not cruising around town tryin to save on gas.

A CAR CAN ONLY GET AS MUCH TRACTION AS THE TIRES WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH......so all those who ran faster with the hybrid trans, need to learn to lay off the gas a little with the lower gear ratios.

Also I can throw up a debate here......from what ive heard about....the lower FD is goign to get you to the line FASTER...but with a slower MPH ( the 3.85) and the higher FD is gonna get you there a little slower, but with more MPH.

[Juggy]

Tell that to the inumerable people who have gone quicker in the 1/4 with a hybrid trans. I wish I had a numerically lower FD at 12PSI in an omni. Granted I have a bit of work done, but I don't get any traction until I'm in 3rd gear at that boost level.

Id also like to add there is an inumerbale about of people who DIDNT GAIN A THING, and potentially went slower from doing the swap...ive read a few posts where people said it was a complete waste of time and money....altho these people may not have had L bodies.

[t3rse]

With more power you are not going to run out of gear. Assuming perfect conditions and optimum traction, a revolution of the motor turns the transmission some constant amount based on the gear ratio, which thus turns the tire some constant amount based on tire size. This of course is not true in the real world, but the point being is that your assumptions aren't correct.

I can tell you this, my 60 improved a lot with the change the 3.50. With the old trans, the car would go 20 feet before hitting the 7.5k rev limiter, after I hit the limiter at the 60 mark on a good pass, and cross the 660 in 3rd around 4k: both with slicks.

I'm willing to bet that the people who didn't like it have less than 300 chp.

[MiniMopar]

Than why would you say 3500-5000? 2500-5500 makes more sense, and is double what you said.

Yes, you are right and I am wrong. :hail:

[moparzrule]

Yes, you are right and I am wrong. :hail:

Whatever man, just waiting for the 3500-5000 explaination.

[MiniMopar]

Those were the numbers I pulled quickly out of my head, but after thinking about it is more like 3-5.5k in the CSX before the 3" exhaust (now it pulls pretty good to 6k, but I still don't like doing it) and 2.5-5k in the Shadow. The Shadow's been gone for a long time, but I usually shifted around 4.5k because the boost started rolling off pretty quick after that. The Mitsu seemed to just run out of breath. So you were correct to call me on those numbers, but the point I was trying to make was that the short gearing of the stock A555/568 is not ideal for most TMs. I don't really understand the appeal unless you have tall tires or a really heavy vehicle (like a minivan).

Been driving my Daytona too long. The S70 doesn't give me full boost until well over 4k. Should have gone with the S2 wheel I think. Hopefully the hybrid + header will be better.

I was mainly comparing to some Honda racing friends, who make good power but have to wind the crap out of the motors to 8k or whatever to get at it. They need that short gearing to take advantage of where their motors make power. My personal experience is that our motors become very inefficient at anywhere near those levels. Why torture the bottom end for no reason? We have these nice wide power bands low on the scale with limited traction and you can optimize both by going with taller gears. That's all I was trying to say

[Juggy]

Why torture the bottom end for no reason? We have these nice wide power bands low on the scale with limited traction and you can optimize both by going with taller gears. That's all I was trying to say

on that note....the hybrid trans is a great option for those with 2.5L engines :thumb:

if your running a 2.2 and making REAL power up top, your going to benefit better with the shorter gear

[moparzrule]

A GSR integra has a final drive of 4.40 vs the 555's 3.85, not to mention each gear is shorter as well. First gear for the GSR is 3.23 vs the 3.00 for a 555. Thats huge, it's over double the difference shorter gearing for the GSR compared to going from the 3.85 to 3.50 on a 555.

[cordes]

A CAR CAN ONLY GET AS MUCH TRACTION AS THE TIRES WILL PROVIDE YOU WITH......so all those who ran faster with the hybrid trans, need to learn to lay off the gas a little with the lower gear ratios.


Thanks for letting everyone know how to do this. I am so glad that after all these years someone has finally found the secret to getting power to the ground in a FWD car. I cant believe anyone has even put together a hybrid trans after coming to grips with this great revelation.


on that note....the hybrid trans is a great option for those with 2.5L engines :thumb:

if your running a 2.2 and making REAL power up top, your going to benefit better with the shorter gear

Have you compared a lot of graphs of 2.2s vs. 2.5s? The 2.5s will make a little more torque in the middle of the powerband, but it is not that much of a difference. I would add that the guys who are making "real" power "up top" are running hybrid transmissions as time and money will allow. Short shifting 1st, 2nd, and 3rd due to the 3.85FD has never gotten anyone down the track faster. If you are able to modulate the throttle with enough skill to make a hybrid trans a disadvantage, you should think about a career in racing.

[moparzrule]

The higher revving the engine the shorter the gears need to be, so I don't understand whats wrong with the statement that a hybrid trans would be better on a 2.5L than a 2.2. I had the same top end on a 2.5 that I did on a 2.2, on the 2.2 I shifted at 6700 and the 2.5 shifted at 6000. Hybrid trans would have really helped my MPH and/or trap speed because I didn't gain much after the 1000' mark since I was almost at 6000 RPM in 4th at that point. But since I went back to a 2.2, I'm sticking with the stock 555 gearing because at 6000 RPM on a 2.2 this thing will be pulling hella strong.
And with slicks, anything under 400 WHP should have no issues with traction.

[cordes]

The higher revving the engine the shorter the gears need to be, so I don't understand whats wrong with the statement that a hybrid trans would be better on a 2.5L than a 2.2. I had the same top end on a 2.5 that I did on a 2.2, on the 2.2 I shifted at 6700 and the 2.5 shifted at 6000. Hybrid trans would have really helped my MPH and/or trap speed because I didn't gain much after the 1000' mark since I was almost at 6000 RPM in 4th at that point. But since I went back to a 2.2, I'm sticking with the stock 555 gearing because at 6000 RPM on a 2.2 this thing will be pulling hella strong.
And with slicks, anything under 400 WHP should have no issues with traction.

When you really look at a lot of graphs of fairly equal setups with the exception of 2.2/2.5, there is really not a huge torque advantage with the 2.5 like some people like to think there is.

I would put forth that any L-body with 300HP and up would benifit from a hybrid trans regardless of what displacement is being run etc.

[Juggy]

When you really look at a lot of graphs of fairly equal setups with the exception of 2.2/2.5, there is really not a huge torque advantage with the 2.5 like some people like to think there is.

I would put forth that any L-body with 300HP and up would benifit from a hybrid trans regardless of what displacement is being run etc.


Robb from Manitoba running sub 11s high 10s with a A568 trans and 3.85fd in his shelby charger @ over 130mph

the hybrid slowed him down, and he was never able to break the 130mph barrier with the 3.50fd....going back to the 3.85 netted him 4-5mph

I remember seeing a dyno of his car....wasnt it something crazy like 467whp??

A longer gear is not needed for a rev happy car....because we can make up the mph difference by revving higher and making more use of the powerband....if I was planning to granny shift my 2.2 at 6K RPM then id go with the hybrid :p like I said I think its a more appropriate mod for a 2.5 which doesnt like to rev as much

[Juggy]

Thanks for letting everyone know how to do this. I am so glad that after all these years someone has finally found the secret to getting power to the ground in a FWD car. I cant believe anyone has even put together a hybrid trans after coming to grips with this great revelation.



I bet you most of these people are building hybrid trannies B4 they even put out some greenbacks for slicks.....its a land of monkey see monkey do around here....most TD people will run out and do something to their car just because someone said its a "proven" mod. Yes proven on thier car and setup......so we have people running out and doing transmission work jsut because they think they are going to possibly go faster, and get more traction.....ive cut 1.8 60 footers with a 3.85 trans and 24" slicks and there was still more rooom for traction.....your telling me the 3.50fd is going to make me that much faster off the line than I already am???

the money I have invested into my slicks is well under the price of what people would pay to have the transmission taken care of (unless they know what they are doing...or know someone) and they will make me alot faster than changing my fd.

anywho back on topic.....slasky's car is a 2.5L......the hybrid swap would be most beneficial for him in his L body, as it will allow him to make more MPH with the RPM he is limited too in the 2.5

[cordes]

I bet you most of these people are building hybrid trannies B4 they even put out some greenbacks for slicks.....its a land of monkey see monkey do around here....most TD people will run out and do something to their car just because someone said its a "proven" mod. Yes proven on thier car and setup......so we have people running out and doing transmission work jsut because they think they are going to possibly go faster, and get more traction.....ive cut 1.8 60 footers with a 3.85 trans and 24" slicks and there was still more rooom for traction.....your telling me the 3.50fd is going to make me that much faster off the line than I already am??? If you crunch the numbers you will see that you could run a 22" slick with a 3.50FD and have the same effect gear wise as the 24" slick with a 3.85FD which will really help to keep the front of the car down, in turn getting more weight over the front wheels and better traction. I think that this is one of the biggest advantages of the 3.50FD, especially in an L-body which is riding very high in the front when a 24 or 24.5" slick is on the front. The taller slicks also kill aerodynamics (even more than is already inherent in most TMs) as it will increase the frontal area of the car by a significant amount.

the money I have invested into my slicks is well under the price of what people would pay to have the transmission taken care of (unless they know what they are doing...or know someone) and they will make me alot faster than changing my fd.

anywho back on topic.....slasky's car is a 2.5L......the hybrid swap would be most beneficial for him in his L body, as it will allow him to make more MPH with the RPM he is limited too in the 2.5 There is one fast 2.5 in particular that revs to 7+K RPM. Although part of your argument is sound, it fails to take into account several factors, ride height, slick height, and weight distribution being among them.

:amen:

[Birddog]

I bet you most of these people are building hybrid trannies B4 they even put out some greenbacks for slicks.....its a land of monkey see monkey do around here....most TD people will run out and do something to their car just because someone said its a "proven" mod. Yes proven on thier car and setup......so we have people running out and doing transmission work jsut because they think they are going to possibly go faster, and get more traction.....ive cut 1.8 60 footers with a 3.85 trans and 24" slicks and there was still more rooom for traction.....your telling me the 3.50fd is going to make me that much faster off the line than I already am???

the money I have invested into my slicks is well under the price of what people would pay to have the transmission taken care of (unless they know what they are doing...or know someone) and they will make me alot faster than changing my fd.

anywho back on topic.....slasky's car is a 2.5L......the hybrid swap would be most beneficial for him in his L body, as it will allow him to make more MPH with the RPM he is limited too in the 2.5


:amen::amen::amen: And one more.....:amen:
Seriously.
I like my 3.85 FD Omni... Gets my fat arse moving easier...:D

[MiniMopar]

You make a good point about the slicks. I guess I am weird in that I don't care that much about slicks because I hardly ever go to the track. My cars are 95% street cars with street tires. Did the short ratio thing and it sucked for that whole 95% usage bit.

At the track, the CSX did go faster with the 3.85, but I was spinning the tires like crazy (more accurately I was spinning A tire). With the hybrid the clutch slips like mad which slowed me down, but I also have an OBX in there now. So I'm guessing that if I keep the tall gears and put in a better clutch, I will go much faster. On the street, the tall gears rock.

On the subject of 2.2 vs 2.5, I don't really buy into that too much for a lot of folks. At sane boost levels, the 2.5s make noticeably more torque. But I think the cylinder heads become the real limiting factor when pushed hard and as I think someone already pointed out, a lot the motors making big numbers these days are 2.2s. A DOHC 2.5L would probably be an entirely different beast I suspect.

[Birddog]

At the track, the CSX did go faster with the 3.85, but I was spinning the tires like crazy (more accurately I was spinning A tire). With the hybrid the clutch slips like mad which slowed me down, but I also have an OBX in there now. So I'm guessing that if I keep the tall gears and put in a better clutch, I will go much faster. On the street, the tall gears rock.


Could you be little more vague please.. 3.85 was slipping with a hybrid clutch and 1 tire. So An OBX and a 3.50 and a better clutch is going to fix it and make you faster?? Hell a better clutch may do the job alone..

Not trying to be a dick, I swear, maybe a little:eyebrows:... But that didn't make any sense to me...

[MiniMopar]

Sorry...LOL. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up because I suck at drag racing and the story is a little more complicated than that. My useful comparisons come from the street where I know certain landmarks can be reached at certain speeds and certain other cars...you know. ;)

The long boring story is the CSX had a bone stock A568 in it for along time with a Mopar T3 clutch (circa 1998). At SDAC 10 with this setup on street tires running about 18psi of boost IIRC and my sucky drag racing skillz, I ran a best of 14.737@96.35. I drove the car like that for many years and would spin the tire(s) through 2nd and even 3rd all the time. It was really annoying. Also, at highway speeds, I was turning crazy RPMs at 80mph.

The A568 got pulled for the Daytona buildup and an A520 with a chrome moly plate was installed with a 6-puck ceramic clutch. That setup worked great on the street. The car was faster based on a few...incidents because I could put the power TO THE GROUND even though it was still 1WD. I later blew up 2nd gear on that trans and that's when I built the A520/555 for it with an OBX. The 6-puck was done so I went to a T2/T3 clutch (same type as before). When I finally went drag racing again a couple of years ago, the clutch slipped like crazy and I ran mid 15s all day.

So, my convoluted conclusion is that I will be able to beat my best time once I install a better clutch because I can get more useful power to the ground now. The motor has not changed at all since 1998 other than having about 35k on it.

[tryingbe]

I hated the A568 in my GLH. Not so much because of the gearing of the transmission, but because the size of the tires... GLH's 195/50/R15 vs my Daytona's 205/55/R16

[Birddog]

Sorry...LOL. I probably shouldn't have even brought it up because I suck at drag racing and the story is a little more complicated than that. My useful comparisons come from the street where I know certain landmarks can be reached at certain speeds and certain other cars...you know. ;)

The long boring story is the CSX had a bone stock A568 in it for along time with a Mopar T3 clutch (circa 1998). At SDAC 10 with this setup on street tires running about 18psi of boost IIRC and my sucky drag racing skillz, I ran a best of 14.737@96.35. I drove the car like that for many years and would spin the tire(s) through 2nd and even 3rd all the time. It was really annoying. Also, at highway speeds, I was turning crazy RPMs at 80mph.

The A568 got pulled for the Daytona buildup and an A520 with a chrome moly plate was installed with a 6-puck ceramic clutch. That setup worked great on the street. The car was faster based on a few...incidents because I could put the power TO THE GROUND even though it was still 1WD. I later blew up 2nd gear on that trans and that's when I built the A520/555 for it with an OBX. The 6-puck was done so I went to a T2/T3 clutch (same type as before). When I finally went drag racing again a couple of years ago, the clutch slipped like crazy and I ran mid 15s all day.

So, my convoluted conclusion is that I will be able to beat my best time once I install a better clutch because I can get more useful power to the ground now. The motor has not changed at all since 1998 other than having about 35k on it.


I understand now... A few too many variables to condemn the 3.85 for me but I get it.
I picked up a bunch of time using the SOTP clock by riding the clutch in 1st and 2nd on the 3.85 over the 3.50 on the "backroads" over here. I pretty much smoked the clutch doing so however...

[BadAssPerformance]

Does anybody sleep in Chicago? ;) Since it's late and I dont want to retype it, I borrowed my post from this thread on gear ratios (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=276347&postcount=4)


My '87 T2 Shadow has gotten ~1.8x 60's with each of the combos below:

A520 (3.50:1) 24.5" M&H
A555 (3.85:1) 24.5" M&H
A555 Hybrid (3.50:1) OBX 24.5" M&H
A555 Hybrid (3.50:1) OBX 23" M&H

the car doesn't have enoughass to pull the big meats with the hybrid looooong gear combo... same 60' but picked up a consistent ~0.10s in the 1/4 by going to the 23" tires.

The combo that was not tried above but might be a tad quicker is to use the 23" slicks with a straight A555 3.85:1 which (for this stockass car) has enough gear to stay off the limiter in 4th.

So with slicks on the track, if you can hook the shorter gear out of the hole and it is close to (but not hitting) redline running thru the lights, it is the right gear combo :thumb:

Street tires on the street? I would take the OBX hybrid with the long gear all day long. :D

[Birddog]

Sleep??

I have to wake the wife up in 2 1/2 hours so she makes it to work on time... Bars at Midway open at 4..

[BadAssPerformance]

Doh! I never understood that until I flew my first redeye that connected on an 8am flight home.

Stewardess: Would you like coffee or orange juice?
Me: Orange juice with vodka please.

:D

[Birddog]

MMMMM Vodka...

[MiniMopar]

Yeah, still up drinkin. Got a bunch of Belgian beer for my birthday....

[Birddog]

Ooooh! And I'm sitting here "rockin the Hi Life"... HINT: Belvedere show.. Who screamed it while leaving the liquor store???


Crap I derailed another thread!:D Sorry...

[Juggy]

Does anybody sleep in Chicago? ;) Since it's late and I dont want to retype it, I borrowed my post from this thread on gear ratios (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=276347&postcount=4)



The combo that was not tried above but might be a tad quicker is to use the 23" slicks with a straight A555 3.85:1 which (for this stockass car) has enough gear to stay off the limiter in 4th.

So with slicks on the track, if you can hook the shorter gear out of the hole and it is close to (but not hitting) redline running thru the lights, it is the right gear combo :thumb:

Street tires on the street? I would take the OBX hybrid with the long gear all day long. :D

ok so if your 60's were all real close with them different combos....id like to hear about the actual 1/4 and MPH times to go with it :)

[BadAssPerformance]

Ooooh! And I'm sitting here "rockin the Hi Life"... HINT: Belvedere show.. Who screamed it while leaving the liquor store???

Crap I derailed another thread!:D Sorry...

Good times :thumb:


ok so if your 60's were all real close with them different combos....id like to hear about the actual 1/4 and MPH times to go with it :)

The car runs quite consistant 13.00's @ 104mph with each of those combos. I'd have to dig thru over 100 timeslips and make some spreadsheet to get you anything better than that.

[Juggy]

Good times :thumb:



The car runs quite consistant 13.00's @ 104mph with each of those combos. I'd have to dig thru over 100 timeslips and make some spreadsheet to get you anything better than that.


so in other words,the hybrid swap had not given you that "2 tenths and 2mph" as someone had orignally proclaimed?

[Speedeuphoria]

and it has not given you more MPH as you proclaimed

[Turbodave]

Ooooh! And I'm sitting here "rockin the Hi Life"... HINT: Belvedere show.. Who screamed it while leaving the liquor store???


I remember the liquor store, and I remember cheap cigars, but much of the rest of that evening escapes me.



The long boring story is the CSX had a bone stock A568 in it for along time with a Mopar T3 clutch (circa 1998). At SDAC 10 with this setup on street tires running about 18psi of boost IIRC and my sucky drag racing skillz, I ran a best of 14.737@96.35. I drove the car like that for many years and would spin the tire(s) through 2nd and even 3rd all the time. It was really annoying. Also, at highway speeds, I was turning crazy RPMs at 80mph.


I remember this dude in a CSX driving back from MI asking those of us that were towing to slow down to 70 because of the rpm's his car was turning.

My 89 Shadow has a 555 in it now, and on the street it does spin the tires more than I would like, but it's tolerable on the highway, possibly because my 89 has an inch taller tires (205/50/16) than the 205/50/15 the CSX.

[iTurbo]

FWIW

My Omni w/A525 3.05 FD is at ~2400 RPM @ 75 MPH with 205/50/15 tires.

My Spirit R/T w/A568 3.50 FD is at ~2500 RPM @75 MPH with 225/50/16 tires.

My Shelby Lancer w/A568 3.85 FD is at ~2750 RPM @ 75 MPH with 205/60/15 tires.

[t3rse]

Juggy: you cut a 1.8 60 with the 3.85. Whoopdy do. I've done better with a 3.50 as have plenty of other people.

I'm not saying that the 3.50 is an end all cure or that anyone should throw one on, but I (that means me, no one else) like it much better than the 3.85 that I had.

If the 3.85 works for you, keep it.

The point being: everyone here has an opinion on what is faster, the 3.50 or 3.85, and you are all wrong.

The auto is faster.

[moparzrule]

Haha, no argument there about the slushbox. But stick to me, more challenging and WAY more fun.

[BadAssPerformance]

so in other words,the hybrid swap had not given you that "2 tenths and 2mph" as someone had orignally proclaimed?

Being that on slicks I can consistantly launch each of the different combos above from 5k w/o much wheelspin... no.

[Juggy]

Juggy: you cut a 1.8 60 with the 3.85. Whoopdy do. I've done better with a 3.50 as have plenty of other people.

I'm not saying that the 3.50 is an end all cure or that anyone should throw one on, but I (that means me, no one else) like it much better than the 3.85 that I had.

If the 3.85 works for you, keep it.

The point being: everyone here has an opinion on what is faster, the 3.50 or 3.85, and you are all wrong.

The auto is faster.

auto is more consistent ;)

my 1.8 60s was on a measly 6-7psi boost the car was falling on its face after each lauch...im sure once im running some real boost, and my quaife ill be cutting that 60 time down even more.

[t3rse]

I'll bet when you are running real boost you are going to spin through the slicks.

I'm going to switch to an auto once I grenade my 568, and hopefully it won't take out the motor with it. :D

[moparzrule]

I plan on using a dual stage boost setup with 2 graingers. First one about 10-15 PSI for first and second gear(I'll take the boost to the highest point I have full traction so I don't have to short shift it), and once I pop it into third slap the switch and off to 30 PSI we go.

[t3rse]

I tried that and it didn't work as well as I would have hoped, so much that I never used it on the track. You'll probably have better luck though.

[moparzrule]

I did use it last time I was at the track, but I was having boost creep issues because I didn't port the wastegate hole like I wanted to because I was in a hurry installing the engine. Lowest I could get it with a direct line to the wastegate was 15 and it creeped to 20 PSI by the time I shifted anyway, hit the switch once in third gear and I was running 25 PSI at the time.
But this time, I'm going back to a 2.2L and porting the WG hole so I shouldn't have any issues holding 7 PSI if I need to. Plus the 2.2 will be better for traction, along with the top end gain I'll get as well.
I also do my own cal's so I have the staging limiter set to about 4000 RPM so I can snap off the line with about 3-4 PSI boost like an auto can. Last time I was at the track I didn't have slicks so it did me no good anyway.

[slasky]

I have the two stage boost and I still rip the slicks all the way through first. I should probably lower the boost but those 5k launches with the launch rev limiter are quite an experience. I think I would lose a little excitement with less boost.

[moparzrule]

How much boost do you have the 1st stage set for?
And why 5K launch when 4-4.5K might be better? I can still build a few pounds of boost at 4K RPM to jump off the line with, no need for more than that.

[Juggy]

I was dumping the clutch @ 5K-5500 as well...once your running slicks matt those 4K launches bog you out the hole....you need more rpm off the line because now you have more traction with slicks

[moparzrule]

4K RPM with the staging limiter I'll be launching with 3-4 lbs of boost, it's not the same as free revving 4K RPM. With slicks I might bump it to 4500 and that would net me like 6-7 lbs of boost, thats a good bit on a launch.

[Speedeuphoria]

Speed based Boost FTW!, rpm switches and solenoids!

[slasky]

How much boost do you have the 1st stage set for?
And why 5K launch when 4-4.5K might be better? I can still build a few pounds of boost at 4K RPM to jump off the line with, no need for more than that.

My low boost is 15-16psi. I am going to try and set my launch limiter to 4k this year.

[Reeves]

Juggy: you cut a 1.8 60 with the 3.85. Whoopdy do. I've done better with a 3.50 as have plenty of other people.

I'm not saying that the 3.50 is an end all cure or that anyone should throw one on, but I (that means me, no one else) like it much better than the 3.85 that I had.

If the 3.85 works for you, keep it.

The point being: everyone here has an opinion on what is faster, the 3.50 or 3.85, and you are all wrong.

The auto is faster.

Wrong..... The auto is quicker.....not faster.

OMNI = 3.50FD A-555 with M+H 25" x 8.7" x 13"

Hoping to go to a 3.05FD in the very near future (as time allows).

:nod:

[t3rse]

Well, considering the gear ratio change, the auto has a higher top speed, so eat that!

screw you and your semantics!!! :lol: