Comparing Intercoolers Thread

[Whorse]

From reading through the induction and lounge threads, I gather that a lot of us have a lot of questions about intercoolers, how well they work, which cars they are good for, pros, cons, inlet and outlet sizes, what PSI they hold, pressure drop, you name it.

I'm looking to upgrade (maybe an SRT4, not sure how that will fit in a J body), so I'm hoping that with some discussion and experiences I can learn a bit to help my decision and the rest of us can benefit.

As A Start:

As we all know, the stockers are a bit limited. I don't know much, except that the Audi 10V IC I'm using is only slightly better (at least my PSI went up and the car felt faster) than my stock VNT intercooler. The inlets and outlets are both on the same side which made plumbing quite easy, but not so good for flow, and I don't think I'd try it over 14psi.

[shadow88]

I can only offer info on stock, vs volvo vs srt-4 and I really don't want to re type the whole thing so i hope this link works.http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?p=901932#post901932

if you want to see a pic of the srt in my shadow, it's in the "show off your i/c pics" section. I can't see why it can't work in a j body, there's a little more room.

[cordes]

I picked up a spearco for my omni because it is a proven performer. I have only run it at 15PSI, and I made many other changes at the same time so there is no direct comparison.

After all the work it took to put an SRT-4 IC into the front of my shadow, I think I would have rather picked up a large NPR and been done with it in about 1/10th the time.

[Whorse]

Isn't the NPR so large that you have to sacrifice A/C though? Where are the inlets and outlets on it? I think they're on either side, which means more difficult plumbing, but better flow through the intercooler. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Whorse]

Has anyone used the Porsche 944 Intercoolers? I've heard they're pretty good for under 300hp, which is what I'm looking for, and seem like they should be easy to plumb. How are the end tanks on them and what are the inlet/outlet sizes.

[Mario]

Paul Veliky (MRBOOST) has been running one on his Daytona for quite some time. He's running really low 12s.

[cordes]

Isn't the NPR so large that you have to sacrifice A/C though? Where are the inlets and outlets on it? I think they're on either side, which means more difficult plumbing, but better flow through the intercooler. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

most don't keep the AC with the large NPR from what I have seen. You are right about the outlets. Although think it flows well because it is so large. Any IC where the tanks are on opposite sides and do not require the air to do a 180 in the IC with no outlet on that side are going to flow better than those that dont'/

[Whorse]

How does the NPR compare to the Powerstroke (This would be for my van, not my lebaron)? Both are about the same price on ebay usually, but the powerstroke is harder to find.

[cordes]

How does the NPR compare to the Powerstroke (This would be for my van, not my lebaron)? Both are about the same price on ebay usually, but the powerstroke is harder to find.

The powerstroke ICs are a waste of time IMO. They don't flow for anything.

[Whorse]

They seem to be more money as well and harder to plumb. Any advantages or just go NPR?

[cordes]

They seem to be more money as well and harder to plumb. Any advantages or just go NPR?

Between the NPR and PS, there is no contest IMO. NPR hands down.

[Whorse]

What about 944 vs. SRT 4? Seem to be similar in size, heard good things about both. SRT is supposed to have very efficient end tanks from what I've read.

[cordes]

Not too sure how much of a difference there would be between the SRT4 and 944ICs. I know that the 944 flows well, as it is 4" thick IIRC.

I wonder what the difference in cooling would be between the two?

[Whorse]

I've talked to an old Porsche vet that really stood by the 944 IC because of how thick it is. Apparantly being so thick helps the cooling a lot on a low front mounted application as it's not exposed to much heat and won't warm up as quickly. If it's getting a lot of engine/rad heat though, the back side can stay a bit warmer and not cool as well, so according to him, mounting is important, but when done well, probably one of the best for it's size.

[Whorse]

Just an interesting note for today. I put my stock IC (I think the VNT IC is supposed to have less fins than the T2) back in the car, instead of the Audi unit I had in. I put it up front and down low and had some interesting results. The car seemed to pull a lot harder across the powerband, but only hit 11psi, while the audi unit would hit 12-13psi, but didn't seem to pull nearly as hard. I redid a couple vaccuum lines, but I know they didn't leak before, just shortened them a few feet to clean things up, so I don't think that's in.

[Ground Rat]

FYI, the probe intercooler isn't that great. lol

[Wink]

FYI, the probe intercooler isn't that great. lol



They're better than a poke in the eye!!!!

Or nothing at all for that matter.


But two should get you up to about 300hp.

[Ground Rat]

They're better than a poke in the eye!!!!

Or nothing at all for that matter.


:lol: True. I'm using one on my van.

[Whorse]

What about the RX7 IC for a Van?

[cordes]

I believe that turbovanman was running one, and it worked well for a while. He has since suprpassed its abilities though.

[Whorse]

Yeah Simon never talks about it though :P

[WrkInPrgrSS]

Anyone have any thoughts on how well 2 - 1st gen. talon ICs welded together would work? How much performance increase, pressure drop, etc?

[cordes]

The talon ICs are said to flow really well, but that they dont cool for anything. I would think they would be a great candidate for a multi core setup should one have acess to a cheap welder and cores.

[Whorse]

How do the big truck coolers compare to each other, namely NPR, Powerstroke, pre 02 Cummins, current Cummins, etc...?

[cordes]

This is all from what I have read, but the PS ICs are horrible, as the don't flow well at all. The NPR coolers people seem to love. The early cummins ICs seem to work well, and the latter ones you supposedly cant fit in the car.

[89DaytonaTII]

I always hear bad things about the PS IC, but have never seen much proof. I have a friend that doesn't seem to mind the PS cooler in his 550+whp turbo buick?

[cordes]

I always hear bad things about the PS IC, but have never seen much proof. I have a friend that doesn't seem to mind the PS cooler in his 550+whp turbo buick?

I have seen the flow numbers on it posted from time to time. They are in the low 400CFM range IIRC. Not impressive by any means for a cooler that size.

[Whorse]

The newer cummins might fit in a van easier than a car, kind of like the PS. What about Mack truck cores with new end tanks? I've seen that done a couple times.

[shadow88]

check your e-mail, i hope the pic went through. that may help you decide if it's a good idea.

[Whorse]

Anything's possible with a Sawzall and Zap Straps :D

[thx138]

what about two stock ic's? If one is good, two must be better, so long as they are parrallel.

[cordes]

what about two stock ic's? If one is good, two must be better, so long as they are parrallel.

That has been a good cheap option that many have opted for.

[Whorse]

Welding isn't cheap if you can't do it yourself though, and I don't know how running them in parallel would work, but they do work well with multicores.

[JacksRage]

11.62 at 125 with dual stocks in parallel.
http://img13.imagevenue.com/loc196/th_41e_ic3.JPG (http://img13.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc196&image=41e_ic3.JPG) http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc150/th_93b_ic.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc150&image=93b_ic.jpg)

[Whorse]

Do you have your front bumper in there? I have mine out right now, but I want to put it back in, being a street car and all. How's the flow on that setup? The stockers seem like they'd be difficult to run efficiently in parallel with the angles of the outlets from the endtanks.

[TurboMinivan]

I have seen the flow numbers on it posted from time to time. They are in the low 400CFM range IIRC. Not impressive by any means for a cooler that size.

This is correct. The PS IC will outflow a stock IC, but dual stock ICs in parallel will easily outflow the PS. Dual stockers also outflow the small NPR, too.

-Dempsey

[turbovanman²]

The 2nd Gen RX7 IC is good for a stockish motor-meaning minor porting, stock turbo. It has decent flow and cools extremely well. But yeah, stepping up to a ported 2 piece intake, header, hybrid turbo and heavilly ported head, its was my cork, :(

BTW, just installed the new IC-

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2904

[shadowdude]

Has any one ever heard of how good a 1994 Saab 9000 intercooler flows?? I have a chance to get one for next to nothing for my 91 shadow ,will it flow enough for 275 WHP?

[turbovanman²]

Has any one ever heard of how good a 1994 Saab 9000 intercooler flows?? I have a chance to get one for next to nothing for my 91 shadow ,will it flow enough for 275 WHP?

How big is it? Can't recall what they look like.

[tryingbe]

How big is it? Can't recall what they look like.

Like a upside down volvo ic.

[shadowdude]

How big is it? Can't recall what they look like.I never got the exact size ,but i do know it is about the same surface area ,size wise, as a stock NA rad from the shadow and it is 3/4" to a 1" thick.Thats why i was wondering ,it is very big for surface area but it is really thin, i think anyways.I could get the exact size if you need it.

[89DaytonaTII]

it's junk

[Whorse]

From what I've read, seems like the Volvo and Saab ICs aren't bad, but there's better value for the same money available. Friend of mine is into 5.0 Mustangs, and said he gained almost half a second switching from a Volvo to a Spearco, including new IC pipes.

Edit: He's running about 11psi in his setup, but no dyno time yet.

[stampederunner]

Whats everyones opinon of the conquest/starion intercooler?

[shadowdude]

it's junk No worries ,i agree. The info i found was that it is to thin ,so my buddy "barron" set me up with a very sweet intercooler from a school bus ,international to be exact,very nice piece. :thumb:

[TurboMinivan]

I never got the exact size ,but i do know it is about the same surface area ,size wise, as a stock NA rad from the shadow and it is 3/4" to a 1" thick.

Is it the one labeled SAAB in this picture?

http://www.gusmahon.org/images/coolertest.jpeg

If so, avoid it like the plague.

-Dempsey

[shadowdude]

yup that is the one ,it is the plague!!!,but like i was saying ,i got one out of an International School bus.That one should flow 20 psi nicely.

[Ubmbass]

haha, the PS IC is a big pile of crap, but, I broke the record with it and paul had the record with it.

[turbovanman²]

haha, the PS IC is a big pile of crap, but, I broke the record with it and paul had the record with it.

That all itself is amazing, :thumb:

How's the van coming?

[TurboMinivan]

How's the transmission coming?

Fixed it for you.

-Dempsey

[Turbulence]

And Gus lives on.....


Is it the one labeled SAAB in this picture?

http://www.gusmahon.org/images/coolertest.jpeg

If so, avoid it like the plague.

-Dempsey


Martin
90 voyager tII
89 Horizon

[turbovanman²]

Fixed it for you.

-Dempsey

:lol: :lol: Funny guy, :eyebrows:

[TurboMinivan]

:lol: :lol: Funny guy, :eyebrows:

That's a habit from the Car Lounge (which I visit far more frequently than any turbo Mopar forums). Still, my point is simple; last I knew, Corby was simply waiting on a transmission to get ol' Clifford back on the road. I hope he finds one soon.

-Dempsey

[turbovanman²]

That's a habit from the Car Lounge (which I visit far more frequently than any turbo Mopar forums). Still, my point is simple; last I knew, Corby was simply waiting on a transmission to get ol' Clifford back on the road. I hope he finds one soon.

-Dempsey

Yeah, I know he's waiting for a tranny, just figured it was easier to say VAN, :eyebrows:

Hopefully, mine-which I just beefed the crap out of, will take my abuse.

[gti_7]

11.62 at 125 with dual stocks in parallel.
http://img13.imagevenue.com/loc196/th_41e_ic3.JPG (http://img13.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc196&image=41e_ic3.JPG) http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc150/th_93b_ic.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc150&image=93b_ic.jpg)


How do you have them mounted? Inlet to inlet? or inlet outlet? or outlet outlet? does it matter?

thanks
bernard

[Whorse]

I swapped out my stock mounted VNT IC for the Porsche 944 IC I bought, and even with some 1-7/8" pipes, it's still noticeably faster, and on my first quick drive, it spiked to 15psi, which is about 2.5psi higher than before.

It's a pretty good shape for mounting and plumbing as well, so I'd like to figure out a good permanent setup for this intercooler.

[Ubmbass]

Yeah transmission is on it's way. Should be here by thursday, I'll get it installed thursday night, then take it to get tuned next week and be ready to race the following event. It is going to be somewhat interesting to see what the van will be capable of with a darrell cox transmission.

[turbovanman²]

Can't wait Corby, :thumb:

Why did you use Darrell Cox? have you used Ramsdell before or what?

[Whorse]

Here's two pictures comparing the Porsche 944IC and the stock VNT IC. The end tanks on the porsche seem better than they look, and the thickness makes a huge difference as well.

http://www3.telus.net/braun/944vsVNT-1.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/braun/944vsVNT-2.jpg

[tryingbe]

That thing is thick! At least 5 iches...

[Whorse]

Yeah it's 5"x5.5" I think it's actually thicker than it is wide. Even the simply putting a rag and blowing through it I noticed the less restriction. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to mount as the stock brackets on it should be easy to make a custom mount for.

[turbo xtc]

FYI, the probe intercooler isn't that great. lol
speaking of probe coolers what about the mazda mx 6 it is the similar engine as the probe but it is a cross flow ic and is very similar to a tIII but not as thick as the tIII and it would bolt the same as the mopar cooler with a little modifying

[shadowdude]

well ,at the risk of dragging up an old thread ,here is a picture of the bigger intercooler i am running compared to the stock shlby daytona one i "was" using.I think this will flow 22psi from the 1989 garret TII nicely.And no i am not holding it there with the bungy permitly ,the brackets and all are in and made now ,just half to plumb this thing.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/677000-677999/677471_48_full.jpg

[Tony Hanna]

I've had pretty good luck so far with a 1g DSM cooler. I measured about a 2 psi drop at 28 as I recall. That really surprised me considering I was even still using the tiny stock inlet/outlet pipes.
I don't know if what I want to do is even possible, but I'd like to find a really good flowing intercooler that could be used in a tII style side mount configuration, look fairly stock, and flow enough for 300-350 whp.
I don't know how they flow, but if a person shortened up a porsche cooler, it looks like it would fit right in place of a stocker.

[MiniMopar]

Whats everyones opinon of the conquest/starion intercooler?

Ran it for several years on my Shadow. Flowed a lot better than the stocker at 15psi, but I'm sure it didn't cool as well since it was a tube/fin design with no internal fins.

[Whorse]

If you look at the pictures of my Porsche IC, it's a lot thicker, so you'd have to shorten it a lot. I think it uses a lot of that length for cooling so it doesn't heat soak, but it would certainly flow well enough. If you used some kind of a fan or ducting to direct a lot of cold air at it and shield it from hot engine air it would do like you are hoping. If you rewelded the outlets for even better flow it would probably help, but with the width it's not bad. The cooler is actually 5.5" thick and only 5" wide. Narrower than the stocker, so you'd have room to use a big radiator if you wanted.

[Tony Hanna]

Sure, a little creative ducting, maybe a small fan or two to help it shed heat.
My considerations for an intercooler are a little different than most people's. The two most important points to me are internal flow and ease of plumbing.
I'll never run another TM in a high boost application without alcohol injection, and that makes up alot for an intercooler that doesn't shed heat as well. Also, I refuse to give up the air conditioning this time, which makes an intercooler mounted in a stock tII configuration ideal. The only problem I'm having so far is finding one that will fit and still flow enough.

[Whorse]

Here's comparing my 944 IC and the VNT IC. They're pretty close, and if you're willing to tig weld some aluminum, it's not much more than a cut and patch job with the end tanks.

[Tony Hanna]

Here's comparing my 944 IC and the VNT IC. They're pretty close, and if you're willing to tig weld some aluminum, it's not much more than a cut and patch job with the end tanks.

I think that would do the trick.:nod:
Something else I'd considered, and I know I'll take some heat for this, is to do a 2 core setup with stock cores, but instead of going side by side, make it double thickness like the supercoupe guys do. I know it wouldn't cool as well like that, but it should flow great, and I'll have the alky to take up the slack. I did some looking around for for a 944 ic on ebay, and didn't see anything like the one you have, so the 2 core stocker might be easier to make happen.
Now I just need to find a TII or equivalent size radiator that will fit the Sundance. That should be fun...:(

[Whorse]

There's a company on ebay that sells porsche parts. You can get one from them for about 200 bucks usually. Otherwise dual stockers in parallel would work if it's cheaper.

[Tony Hanna]

I know this is off topic, and I'm sorry, but it ties into the whole intercooler choice thing. I don't know if anybody else is trying to sidemount a non-stock intercooler, but fitting a smaller radiator would really open up some options.
I know most people that get away from the stock radiator probably go bigger to improve cooling, but I wonder how small a person could go before running into any overheating problems when it's hot out. I tried one of the 2 pass n/a Omni radiators on the Daytona, and it wouldn't quite keep up. I wonder if there's anything about that size that would do the job. Maybe something off of another car that could be made to fit...

[Whorse]

Look into a custom or aftermarket radiator with a performance rating. Shrouding and air dams can do amazing things to a radiator, just like an air intake. The radiator from a caravan, or a TII/TIV can be remounted very close to the passenger side, and if you're willing to do a bit of chopping like I did, you can fit a T1 rad AND the TII/TIV intercooler in its stock location.

[Tony Hanna]

Look into a custom or aftermarket radiator with a performance rating. Shrouding and air dams can do amazing things to a radiator, just like an air intake. The radiator from a caravan, or a TII/TIV can be remounted very close to the passenger side, and if you're willing to do a bit of chopping like I did, you can fit a T1 rad AND the TII/TIV intercooler in its stock location.

I moved the TI radiator over toward the pass side like you're talking about in the Daytona to make room for the IC plumbing, but it looks like I'd run into some interference issues with the alternator if I tried that on the Sundance.
Plus I can't go too far without getting into the AC lines coming from the condenser. I'll have to look into the Caravan radiator idea. I'd just assumed they were too tall.

[MiniMopar]

Top to bottom: Spearco "1080" sold by FWD-P and others, RP triple stock core, and an early Conquest with 2-1/4" connections welded on. You can see how the Spearco core is close in surface area to the stocker, however it flows well since the tubes run the other way. I was surprised how small it was...seems like it would heak soak easily.

[Tony Hanna]

It seems like the intercoolers with a bunch of short tubes do flow better.
Makes me wonder how the cheapie ebay coolers they are selling for civics flow since they're about 9 miles long between the end tanks. I'd be willing to bet they don't flow worth crap.

[GLHSKEN]

Whorse... Ever seen a twin 944 cooler.... Works remarkebly well....

The 944 is a good unit for our cars..

[Whorse]

I've actually been considering exactly that idea for some time now, and trying to find a cheap one if something comes up. My only concern would be mounting it up front above my existing one.

[GLHSKEN]

You take 2 coolers to a shop. Have them converted to a single unit and go from there. If a twin 944 cooler can fit in an OMNI with the grill still in place.. your car will be a snap.

[Whorse]

I'm sure it *could* fit, but keep in mind the lebaron front end is a lot more sloped than an omni. Now...say 2 944 intercoolers in parallel...

[Ground Rat]

I see a few people here prefer a large NPR to a PS intercooler. I know the NPR flows more CFM, but is it really a better IC? If so why? I ask because the turbo volvo guys seem to prefer the PS over the NPR.

[Ground Rat]

NPR IC (the bigger one): at 329cfm and 290°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.09psi,
outlet temp is 130°F,
heat rejected is 55553 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1404 square inches.

Starion IC: at 324cfm and 292°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.29psi,
outlet temp is 139°F,
heat rejected is 52287 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1217 square inches.

Saab 9000 IC: at 332cfm and 295°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.81psi,
outlet temp is 123°F,
heat rejected is 60350 BTU/Hr, and
calculated heat exchange area is 1602 square inches.

Volvo IC: at 331cfm and 293°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.55psi,
outlet temp is 126°F,
heat rejected is 58809 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1539 square inches.

Powerstroke IC: at 351cfm and 289°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is .02psi,
outlet temp is 92°F,
heat rejected is 73305 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 3278 square inches.




The PS sounds like a much better IC than the NPR.

[JMotorsprt]

Do we have numbers on the SRT-4 Intercooler to compare?

[csteffee]

Here's comparing my 944 IC and the VNT IC. They're pretty close, and if you're willing to tig weld some aluminum, it's not much more than a cut and patch job with the end tanks.

I wonder if you couldn't mount the 944 IC IN the bumper of an Omni.

[elle bawdy]

I wonder if you couldn't mount the 944 IC IN the bumper of an Omni.

Gary D did it....

[Whorse]

I put mine in the bumper of my Lebaron, so I'm sure it's possible.

[csteffee]

Gary D did it....

Cool!!!!!!!! Any body know how to contact him?

[Directconnection]

NPR IC (the bigger one): at 329cfm and 290°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.09psi,
outlet temp is 130°F,
heat rejected is 55553 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1404 square inches.

Starion IC: at 324cfm and 292°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.29psi,
outlet temp is 139°F,
heat rejected is 52287 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1217 square inches.

Saab 9000 IC: at 332cfm and 295°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.81psi,
outlet temp is 123°F,
heat rejected is 60350 BTU/Hr, and
calculated heat exchange area is 1602 square inches.

Volvo IC: at 331cfm and 293°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is 0.55psi,
outlet temp is 126°F,
heat rejected is 58809 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 1539 square inches.

Powerstroke IC: at 351cfm and 289°F on the inlet side of the IC,
pressure drop is .02psi,
outlet temp is 92°F,
heat rejected is 73305 BTU/Hr,
calculated heat exchange area is 3278 square inches.




The PS sounds like a much better IC than the NPR.


Good info, but I'd also want to know what it does in the real world testing. Meaning...measured at 20+psi boost on the car. I don't like the temp results on the NPR, but flow seems great. I have seen a car make 15 consecutive 300+whp pulls back to back and the outlet of the NPR was still cold.

BTW...how was the "calculated heat exchange area" figured? The PS has more than double anything else...is this a thick cooler?

[puppet]

So according to Ground Rat's findings the IC's ranked by cooling effiency are as follows:
BTU's per inch removed .. best to worse:
Starion = 43
NPR = 39.5
Volvo = 38.2
Saab = 37.6
PowerStroke = 22.38

I don't think flow is at all important on our engines. They all flow plenty for our heads. Cooling ability is were it's at for us 8V guys. To bad there isn't any stocker info ... (hint hint)

[Directconnection]

I don't think flow is at all important on our engines. They all flow plenty for our heads. Cooling ability is were it's at for us 8V guys. To bad there isn't any stocker info ... (hint hint)


No way dude! Flow is ALWAYS important... but even more so on an engine that suffers from poor flow to begin with. An intercooler seeing 20psi boost has alot more of a pressure drop than .5 psi or so that you are seeing in these tests. I think a stock T-III cooler was tested as a 7psi loss on a stock T-III (running more than stock oost hough). I would assume the better NPR or other bigger coolers to be much better somewheres around 2 or 3psi and a spearco much better.

These Hondas I get a kick out of with the long and wide coolers. Looong tubes and not many of them. They may gain alot of VE on our 8v engines, but lose alot of that advantage when they bolt on a cooler that looks and cools great, but flows as well as our stockers.

BTW... it's not the amount "flow" we look at, it is the pressure drop that is most important. 7psi drop at the cooler at 20psi boost means basically your turbo is spinning the required shaft speeds to make 27psi which equals a ton more back pressure in the turbine and elevated charge temps which both rob HP.

[puppet]

Why would I need an IC that flows more than twice the engines cylinder head?
An IC that flows 1024 cfm will still only have 180 cfm flowing through it feeding a well ported 8V head. My thinking is that flow is/should be a secondary concern for us. Cooling the charge is way more important when you don't have flow.

I understand how pressure drop works. Whether it's real world or in an example such as posted by Ground Rat .. the ratio's between the IC's tested should still be valid.
BTW ... that 7psi drop across the stocker you site seems pretty big to me. I don't think that can be accurate simply based on what some guys are boosting at with a stock turbo. Add another 7psi to that figure and I smell bearings.

[shelbyplaya]

why dont we all just get IC's like this?

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/2220000-2220999/2220232_19_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/2220000-2220999/2220232_20_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/2220000-2220999/2220232_21_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/2220000-2220999/2220232_22_full.jpg

[Ground Rat]

Good info, but I'd also want to know what it does in the real world testing.
Me too. I would like to know from real world testing which is better, the big NPR or the PS. I really need to upgrade the Probe IC in my mini. In the process of trying to find the answer I came across these numbers and just thought I'd post them up for you guys. I know numbers aren't everything, so hopefully someone here has some real world experience with the big NPR vs the PS?

[cordes]

Why would I need an IC that flows more than twice the engines cylinder head?
An IC that flows 1024 cfm will still only have 180 cfm flowing through it feeding a well ported 8V head. My thinking is that flow is/should be a secondary concern for us. Cooling the charge is way more important when you don't have flow.

I understand how pressure drop works. Whether it's real world or in an example such as posted by Ground Rat .. the ratio's between the IC's tested should still be valid.
BTW ... that 7psi drop across the stocker you site seems pretty big to me. I don't think that can be accurate simply based on what some guys are boosting at with a stock turbo. Add another 7psi to that figure and I smell bearings.


There is usually a direct correlation between pressure drop and how much an IC can flow at X boost pressure. The forementioned test could not have been conducted at the boost level at which most of us are switching to a larger IC. There is just too little pressure drop through most of those cores.

IIRC the PS is a very thin cooler and does not flow that well at all especially for its size. I know that a dual core stocker is said to beat the pants off of a PS IC in flow.

The better flowing the IC the more efficient you will be. As mentioned earlier the less pressure drop through the core, the more efficient the whole system becomes.

I believe that some one tested the stock TII coolers and there was a 5-7PSI drop through the core at about 18PSI. Not good at all.

[puppet]

For my money, efficiency is best cooling. Cooler air, denser oxygen, makes more power. Seems like IC's that flow better do so at the expense of cooling better .... like less fins to increase interior flow. I'll take the cooler, denser air anyday .. even if it means compromising on 1024 cfm of flow :P

On the stock IC.
I've read 2psi at #15 boost level. Think I've seen this mentioned on Gary's site before. Hard to imagine #3 more boost adding an additional 3-5 psi pressure differential. That can't be right or repeatable.

[cordes]

One must compromise between flow and cooling. More often than not the better flowing IC of an appropriate size for the aplication will do the best due to the pressure drop through the core.

What really needs to be addressed is the PSI at which those coolers were flowed. Like I say, I know that a 1080 CFM spearco is said to have a .5 PSI pressure drop, which I believe is based on a ~20PSI standard so I don't really see how anyone can compare the others with out a given boost pressure.

[turbovanman²]

ShelbyPlaya, can you say HEAT SOAK, :nod:

[Whorse]

Speaking of Ray, and Heatsoak...nevermind I'll leave your mom out of this one.

I think most people don't get big truck intercoolers through lucrative deals and then chop them up to put in Daytonas. For the effort, and the cost for those of us who don't know a cheap welder, there's pretty good alternatives, often much smaller (like my 944 which is great for my application).

[Directconnection]

For my money, efficiency is best cooling. Cooler air, denser oxygen, makes more power. Seems like IC's that flow better do so at the expense of cooling better .... like less fins to increase interior flow. I'll take the cooler, denser air anyday .. even if it means compromising on 1024 cfm of flow :P

On the stock IC.
I've read 2psi at #15 boost level. Think I've seen this mentioned on Gary's site before. Hard to imagine #3 more boost adding an additional 3-5 psi pressure differential. That can't be right or repeatable.



As boost goes up (meaning increase in airflow) so does the pressure drop. This means as the airflow increases, the the intercooler becomes more of a restriction. I believe this to be exponentially, as well. Just like a 1-7/8 exhaust system is fine for a 2.2 n/a because it produces 93 HP, the pipe will flow enough for a 200hp turbo II, but at quite the cost of HP. So...cooler and denser air can easily be offset by the flow losses. If it weren't true, everyone would be running the Volvo coolers of a while back. Or... use 2 stockers in series.


Larry did many dyno tests on his T-III car in many various states. 501whp was his last test and initially tried to see if he could squeeze 300whp from the stock drivetrain including the intercooler. That was when he found roughly a 7 psi pressure drop.


Nobody wants a hot intercooler, but #1 priority in choosing an intercooler is it's pressure drop. Then find out it's thermal efficiency and make your decision in my opinion. I'd choose the Spearco as #1.

BTW... how did you come up with only 180cfm in your example of the 8v head? There's alot more air being pushed through.

[Directconnection]

What really needs to be addressed is the PSI at which those coolers were flowed. Like I say, I know that a 1080 CFM spearco is said to have a .5 PSI pressure drop, which I believe is based on a ~20PSI standard so I don't really see how anyone can compare the others with out a given boost pressure.

Word.
















:eyebrows:

[puppet]

I just pulled the 180cfm figure out of my hat ... don't know what a well ported head flows on the bench exactly ... figured that would be close considering the 156 cfm stock fastburn measurements I've seen posted.

I do realize that it takes about 150cfm to produce 100 HP. That aside, it seemed obvious that the examples Ground Rat posted for IC cfm air flow were also done on a flow bench. Just trying to compare apples. If it's not the case that those figures are derived on a bench test, then even the NPR wouldn't flow enough for us. If it's so, the ratios should be close enough.

... got a twin stocker set-up on my daytona and since I'm real curious about the pressure drops being stated by you and myself I'm going to test them @20psi. I'll drill and install a couple fittings bfore and after the pair ... mutiply by two and that should yield the answer. It'll have to be after I correct a top end problem though. Three cylinders are pressurizing the coolant system.

[cordes]

I just pulled the 180cfm figure out of my hat ... don't know what a well ported head flows on the bench exactly ... figured that would be close considering the 156 cfm stock fastburn measurements I've seen posted.

I do realize that it takes about 150cfm to produce 100 HP. That aside, it seemed obvious that the examples Ground Rat posted for IC cfm air flow were also done on a flow bench. Just trying to compare apples. If it's not the case that those figures are derived on a bench test, then even the NPR wouldn't flow enough for us. If it's so, the ratios should be close enough.

... got a twin stocker set-up on my daytona and since I'm real curious about the pressure drops being stated by you and myself I'm going to test them @20psi. I'll drill and install a couple fittings bfore and after the pair ... mutiply by two and that should yield the answer. It'll have to be after I correct a top end problem though. Three cylinders are pressurizing the coolant system.


I got curious and did a search over on TD, and found the ansewer to both the single core and double core flow loss questions.

I would be eager to hear your findings though. I would also like to see pics of your double core stocker, as I think a lot of the home made jobs out there leave some thing to be desired in the flow category when tye are designed.

[puppet]

It's not dual core ... it's twins in parallel.
On the '89 daytona they are mounted lengthwise behind the chin spoiler openings. ... one each opening.

Pipe from the turbo is 2-1/2" and "Y"s to both IC's with 2" pipe.
Pipe from the IC's is 2-1/2" and those "Y" into 3" pipe on up to the TB.

It was tough stuffing this in the front and returning to the TB. Both passes are on the battery side ... full sized V6 radiator and a Neon battery just allows the 3" to pass.

I think that there still are pic's up on TD.com. http://www.turbododge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114842

[mock_glh]

Why would I need an IC that flows more than twice the engines cylinder head?
An IC that flows 1024 cfm will still only have 180 cfm flowing through it feeding a well ported 8V head.

That figure of 180 cfm is what the head flows at 28 inches of vacuum, which is less than 1 bar. The flow at 20 psi is quite a bit more than 180 cfm. Also a better flowing IC will not require the higher exhaust pressures and boost temperatures to give the desired manifold pressure and charge temp.:nod:

[puppet]

I just pulled the 180cfm figure out of my hat ... don't know what a well ported head flows on the bench exactly ... figured that would be close considering the 156 cfm stock fastburn measurements I've seen posted.

I do realize that it takes about 150cfm to produce 100 HP. That aside, it seemed obvious that the examples Ground Rat posted for IC cfm air flow were also done on a flow bench. Just trying to compare apples. If it's not the case that those figures are derived on a bench test, then even the NPR wouldn't flow enough for us. If it's so, the ratios should be close enough.

... got a twin stocker set-up on my daytona and since I'm real curious about the pressure drops being stated by you and myself I'm going to test them @20psi. I'll drill and install a couple fittings bfore and after the pair ... mutiply by two and that should yield the answer. It'll have to be after I correct a top end problem though. Three cylinders are pressurizing the coolant system......

[Directconnection]

I just pulled the 180cfm figure out of my hat ... don't know what a well ported head flows on the bench exactly ... figured that would be close considering the 156 cfm stock fastburn measurements I've seen posted.


180 cfm on a flowbench... but that's at 28" depression. An engine flows alot more than what the flowbench can give. I think I read in a N/A eninge, it would be more to the tune of 120" test pressure... but something is telling me I read it was much more than that even. Then add in boost. The 1080cfm or whatever it is for the Spearco is the rating they get from seeing .5psi pressure drop from what I believe.

Frank is more savy with the #s than I am, and he could pull up the airflow of a turbo 2.2 with good flowing cylinder head at 30 psi boost in a couple minutes, where it would take me an hour+ searching for a basic formula. (or just use engin dyno software)

[Directconnection]

That figure of 180 cfm is what the head flows at 28 inches of vacuum, which is less than 1 bar. The flow at 20 psi is quite a bit more than 180 cfm. Also a better flowing IC will not require the higher exhaust pressures and boost temperatures to give the desired manifold pressure and charge temp.:nod:


Bastage! You beat me to it:thumb:

[JMotorsprt]

How does the SRT-4 Intercooler compare?

[W.P._Turbocars]

I'm running a 23" X 18 1/2" X 3" New Holland I/C in my tona and noticed a huge difference over stock (obviously) But as far as flow rate, etc. I couldn't say. Also 3" in/outlets

Will try to get some pics in the next week under Show of your I/C's

Gary

[GLHSKEN]

Gary D did it....You can mount a twin 944 cooler in the grill of an omni... The 944 cooler is larger than the VNT

[Whorse]

Here's the exact comparisson.

[Dave]

Not to hijack, but can we touch base with the Powerstroke intercoolers?? I've been doing some digging. Apparently the aluminum P/S's only flow 351 CFMs. :eek: I knew they were nicknamed Powerchoke's for a reason. :( But this site also showed it's cooling capacity, which is where the cooler really shined. It cooled at inlet of 289 and cooled down to 92. I'm assuming that's fahrenheit.

Many Ebay intercoolers are said to flow anywhere form 800-1,020 CFMs. Looks like I should invest in one of those...

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/lane/6272/tech_info/ford_ic/