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turbo2point2
03-02-2008, 12:25 PM
It's been a while since I posted anything about progress ion the race car so I figure I would update a bit. Since Nov. 06' the car has been decomissioned for upgrades to the safety and performance of the car. The last 2 times out with the car were an absolute dream, the car was straight as an arrow from the launch to shutdown. This was after I lowered it, extended the wheelbase and had a wicked wheel alignment on it. 60's improved over a tenth and probably had more to gain if I had more seat time.

Fast forward to today. I think every aspect of the car has changed since that last time it went down the track. The safety aspect, a parachute now sits out back just in case I need some help slowing it down. The roll cage is now certified to 8.50 :thumb: The rest of the factory window were swapped for MR-10 lexan pieces. The car will still use a 2.2 hybrid, but will have a set of upgraded billet main caps(Thanks, Aaron!) to hold the crank in place. Choice of turbo went to a S300 Borg-Warner unit with a 72mm inducer. This sucker is large! I welded up a stainless header for it, also using a dual wastegate setup, one for each pair of runners. I fabbed up a new intake as well, it consists of a 5" plenum and a 75mm mustang TB. Outback I decided to fab up a new roll pan, after stretching the wheelbase, the rear bumper looked weird. And underneath the car, used some sheet aluminum to keep the air flowing nicely under the car.

I made the decision to use all of the Neon DOHC timing pieces on this motor. The crank gear, cam gears, idlers and even the belt were a combo of 2.0/2.4 parts. I made a custom spacer to use the crank gear and the available aftermarket damper for the 2.4. The electronics were removed in favor of a Bigstuff3 system. Capable of individual cylinder timing and fuel control, coil-on-plug and many other features should help this combo run great. I am attaching some shots of the car I took this week, I have a ways to go, but I think soon enough I will be getting back to the track. Thanks for reading!!

shadow88
03-02-2008, 12:48 PM
Very nice. That turbo is ginormous!

Do you have any predictions for this race season? Is it heavier with the new safety gadgets, and do you know the bsx's race weight?

raccoon
03-02-2008, 12:49 PM
good stuff!

cordes
03-02-2008, 12:55 PM
VERY impressive. I can't wait to see the results.

mcsvt
03-02-2008, 01:03 PM
Hope to get to see you race this year! Nice progress Brian :thumb:

2.216VTurbo
03-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Brian, you've been holding out on us man, I want to give you one of these:clap: but any one of those things you upgraded were worth a little write up and a right click save as:amen: Got a debut date yet:eyebrows:?

Turbo3Iroc
03-02-2008, 01:54 PM
Looking good Brian, can't wait to see it run.....

Clay
03-02-2008, 02:21 PM
wow, I cant wait to see how it runs now!

Turbodave
03-02-2008, 02:26 PM
Looks awesome!

turbo2point2
03-02-2008, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the kudos all! To answer the weight question, I think between the safety stuff, larger turbo, etc. I will be adding approx. 80-100lbs. of weight..ugh. But, I still have some sheet metal I can remove from the car. I most likely will not do much weight reduction this season in the interest of getting it to the track. Race weight is currently 2200lbs. so I am looking at probably 2300 or so. I am hoping to debut the car late May early June. I won't get into et./mph predictions, but I am shooting for 700whp.

Xtrempickup
03-02-2008, 02:43 PM
i cant wait to see this car run again. i was there when it broke into the 9s the first time. Good Luck Brian. hopefully i get to see it run this year again

gasketmaster
03-02-2008, 02:50 PM
Looks AWESOME Brian! :hail:

BadAssPerformance
03-02-2008, 02:53 PM
Looking good Brian! :thumb:

Turbo224
03-02-2008, 04:41 PM
WOW! :clap:

minigts
03-02-2008, 06:50 PM
Good grief that turbo is big.... How in the world is that thing going to spool up, sheer desire and will?

Frank
03-02-2008, 10:19 PM
The real question is where did you get the header?

iTurbo
03-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Looks good! What kind of timing belt tensioner is that?

Turbo3Iroc
03-02-2008, 10:35 PM
Here ya go Frank:


I welded up a stainless header for it, also using a dual wastegate setup, one for each pair of runners....

:D

contraption22
03-02-2008, 10:37 PM
The real question is where did you get the header?

Here ya go



I welded up a stainless header for it, also using a dual wastegate setup, one for each pair of runners.

Frank
03-02-2008, 10:54 PM
Here ya go

Umm, I hate you. ;)

contraption22
03-02-2008, 10:57 PM
Umm, I hate you. ;)

But I love you, Frank.

I had to... it was fresh off you pointing out my REPOST.

Frank
03-02-2008, 11:04 PM
LOL. I figured as much! I wonder what it would take for Brian to make me one of those headers. :)

badandy
03-03-2008, 12:23 AM
LOL. I figured as much! I wonder what it would take for Brian to make me one of those headers. :)
From the looks of it a welder and some tubing:p

I just had to get into the smart ---'d comments going on:D

turbo2point2
03-03-2008, 07:27 AM
Wow, thank again everyone for the comments. I really helps in the motivation department:thumb: The timing belt tensioner is a T-III piece that i had around. But I could use almost any eccentric type.

"The real question is where did you get the header?''

Thanks Frank, while I was building it, I did try and remember some of the things that you felt were necessary for a good piece.

"Good grief that turbo is big.... How in the world is that thing going to spool up, sheer desire and will?"

I believe that it will be all in the tune up. Plus, some ATDC timing should get some heat in that exhaust;)

Frank
03-03-2008, 07:34 AM
Thanks Frank, while I was building it, I did try and remember some of the things that you felt were necessary for a good piece.


Ya, that header is probably one of the better SRT/16V headers I have seen. It should really help in spooling that turbo.... if you need much help at all!

contraption22
03-03-2008, 08:27 AM
It's gonna be so badass.

GLHS592
03-03-2008, 09:36 AM
Nice work! I like to see people try new things. Whatever happened to that thread showing how you rebuilt the rear suspension and altered the wheelbase? Was that on the other forum? I'd like to see those pictures again.

Frank
03-03-2008, 09:49 AM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7746

R/T
03-03-2008, 11:32 PM
Looks great, BUT:

What about hood pins????


















:drum: :p

turbo2point2
03-04-2008, 07:23 AM
"Looks great, BUT:

What about hood pins????"

Good one:D That is one of those things that I don't think I will ever forget again.

Thanks for posting that link Frank. I wanted to try a few different things this time around. The aero stuff is something that I wanted to try out. I also intend to fab up a airdam extension for it and some fender extensions/new fenders to cover up the tires, but some of that stuff will be put on hold to get the car down the track sooner.

Bubba
03-04-2008, 05:23 PM
WOW! Very nice set-up Brian. Look forward to seeing it run down the track, get lots of videos!

Dusty_Duster
03-04-2008, 05:45 PM
That turbo is almost as big as the head. Very nice! :thumb:

iTurbo
03-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Wow, thank again everyone for the comments. I really helps in the motivation department:thumb: The timing belt tensioner is a T-III piece that i had around. But I could use almost any eccentric type.

Thanks. I've been searching for a suitable tensioner from another application to work for the TIII since they are out of production and have no aftermarket. That one looked close, but apparently a little too close. The search continues:thumb:

8valves
03-07-2008, 07:38 PM
That S300 should work well on there Brian. I'm glad the main caps worked out well for you, hopefully they aid in keeping the bottom end in good shape. Is your block filled as well?

The car looks great though, sir. I look forward to seeing your hard work pay off.

Any particular rpm range you plan to leave the line at and stay above?

Also, BS3 will help out with the spool, just put the car on some anti-lag and let it eat before you leave the line! We can get 27 psi at 8000rpms on my brother's car on a 2.0L with an 81mm inducer GT series turbo in 1.7 seconds on the line. I think that would let you leave plenty hard! Ha!

turbo2point2
03-08-2008, 11:44 AM
"That S300 should work well on there Brian. I'm glad the main caps worked out well for you, hopefully they aid in keeping the bottom end in good shape. Is your block filled as well?"

After looking at a bunch of maps, comparing prices, racer feedback, etc. I felt the S300 was my best choice. The block is filled, but so was the last one. That's why I'm counting one those caps:nod:

"The car looks great though, sir. I look forward to seeing your hard work pay off."

Thanks! I am getting pretty excited to get 'er running. Waiting on very few small parts and the mock motor/trans will come out and in with the good stuff!

"Any particular rpm range you plan to leave the line at and stay above?"

Unsure of launch rpm at the moment, I don't need to make a ton of power to cut a nice 60'. Time will tell how the powerband looks in this car, 4800-5200 seems like a good starting point, and keeping it above 5500. For some reason, I still think this combo will make low end. We shall see...

"Also, BS3 will help out with the spool, just put the car on some anti-lag and let it eat before you leave the line! We can get 27 psi at 8000rpms on my brother's car on a 2.0L with an 81mm inducer GT series turbo in 1.7 seconds on the line. I think that would let you leave plenty hard! Ha!"

Agreed on the anti-lag stuff. Pretty sweet stuff 27psi @ 8000 nice in 1.7 secs. Nice!

Speedeuphoria
03-09-2008, 01:23 AM
I know you were the 1st hybrid I ever heard off, were you r=the 1st period?

I wish you great success with the car, as its a monster and you have learned me many things:thumb:

What kind of head/cam are you running?

turbo2point2
05-05-2008, 08:52 PM
OK, an update since it has been a while. I decided to do the front end before I debut the car for the first time since Nov '06. I felt that a fiberglass front end was probably most beneficial. Weight savings & improved aerodynamics would be the most realized benefits from a 1 piece front end. But there are a few other benefits as well.

After a search, I found the only way to get what I wanted for what I wanted to spend was to do it myself. I have never had much to do with fiberglass but I figured wtf, just try it. I spent a bunch of hours reading on how to go about my project. The pictures came out ok, detail cannot really be seen but you can get the idea of what I am trying to do.

I also molded a new rear roll pan copied directly from the one I fabbed from sheetmetal. That piece came out sweet! Weighs in about 3.5 lbs. compared to 13lbs and is strong as heck!! The first pic of the roll pan shows the mold and the part after seperation. The front end pics are of the mold only since I haven't started making the part yet. This has really taken a bunch of time to do, but I think it will all be worthwhile in the end.

moparman76_69
05-05-2008, 09:15 PM
What process did you use to make the mold?

cordes
05-05-2008, 09:57 PM
That looks great. Thanks for posting up the pics. I too am interested in the process.

turbo2point2
05-06-2008, 06:29 AM
"What process did you use to make the mold?"

I don't know if there is a special term for the way I did it. I used the front end that was on the car, and modified it. For instance, I used fender flares from a Dodge Nitro and modified them to fit my car. I also used modeling clay to fill in low areas and transitions. After aligning the front end, I went to town waxing it. Fiberglassing requires a special wax so that the molds and parts will release easily. After 8 coats of the wax, it was time to spray on a few layers of PVA. PVA is like an insurance policy that your part will release and the underlying surface will not be harmed by resin or gelcoat. When the pva dries, I sprayed on 3 heavy coats of gelcoat for a thickness of about 15-20 mil. The gelcoat provides a nice, smooth durable surface for molding parts or can be left alone as the topcoat on the finished part.

So when the gelcoat cures, you start laying the glass in. For the molds I used 1.5oz. chop mat. This is great for building thickness and for getting in those compound curves. I molded the front end in 3 pieces and the roll pan in 2. The reason is so that when the mold or part is finished, the mold can be taken apart for easy removal, otherwise it may not come apart without breaking. For the front end, I did the fenders first, then the hood area. The first pic shows the front before the hood mold was started. Second pic is the pva going down on the hood. You can also see the modeling clay where the grill meets the bumper.

When a bunch of layers are built up and a lot of resin consumed, you can remove the mold from the car. Mold thickness should be 2-3 times thicker than the part to be produced. If the mold will be a one time deal, you can go thinner. I built mine thick in case I needed to make a copy down the road. For making the part, it is the same for making the mold. Start by fixing any trouble spots on the mold, wet sand, polish and wax. PVA the mold, spray the gelcoat on, wait, and start glassing. After many hours, you too can have fiberglass parts for your car!

I realized that after typing this I have made one mistake, that was not thanking my great friend Justin Cronk, a fellow TD'er who has given me 30 hours of his time so far! This is a good friend tester, a true friend will still come back to help after putting so much time in. Thanks Bud!!

moparman76_69
05-06-2008, 07:35 AM
I was watching musclecar sunday and they used a similar process to reverse mold some fiberglass flares they had made. According to him it took like a week to do because they used three layers of mat on the mold and two on the new piece from the mold, and had to let each layer dry 24 hours before the next to make sure heat didn't build up.

Clay
05-06-2008, 07:38 AM
this is just to bad arse! I cant wait to see this in person one day! Keep up the good work Brian!!!!!!

Speedeuphoria
05-06-2008, 07:54 AM
Frickin Awesome as usual:nod:

2.216VTurbo
05-06-2008, 09:18 AM
Extra thick mold in case you need to make a copy eh:nod:? I'm sensing some BSX clones down the road:thumb:...Gotta be some other P body guys with a drag car project on the drawing board:D Looking good like always Brian:hail:

If we start a 'debut at SDAC chant', will it help:D?

omni_840
05-06-2008, 10:33 AM
Wow, that is very impressive! When do think it will make its debut?

Clay
05-06-2008, 10:40 AM
Im hoping SDAC!

turbo2point2
05-06-2008, 09:11 PM
"Extra thick mold in case you need to make a copy eh? I'm sensing some BSX clones down the road...Gotta be some other P body guys with a drag car project on the drawing board Looking good like always Brian

If we start a 'debut at SDAC chant', will it help?"

BSX clones...possibly, looks like I'm a P-body man for life! A debut chant would be sweet. If the car works out as planned, an SDAC debut wouldn't be out of the question. However, this time around, almost everything has changed. And accordingly there will be issues to resolve. But I will do my best to get it done:thumb:

Thanks to everyone for the Kudos!

jcronk23
05-06-2008, 10:14 PM
What process did you use to make the mold?

Yeah what Brian said... and 3 half pints of crown royal for me to pass the 30 hours of time waiting for drying :confused: I did drunk dial my friend Dave's parents too during the wait...


I realized that after typing this I have made one mistake, that was not thanking my great friend Justin Cronk, a fellow TD'er who has given me 30 hours of his time so far! This is a good friend tester, a true friend will still come back to help after putting so much time in. Thanks Bud!!

De Nada my good man.... I got your back and am prepared for my share of d__kridin' once you fire the old bird up :thumb:

The bumper looks great!

Justin

Xtrempickup
05-06-2008, 10:33 PM
whats the actual weight savings over the stock front end?

WickedShelby88
05-08-2008, 02:40 PM
That right there shows dedication to our hobby. WOW! Its nice to live in the information age.

contraption22
05-08-2008, 03:55 PM
If this doesn't work as planned... Brian is planning to sell P-Body-shapped recreational fishing boats.

Captain Chaos
05-08-2008, 04:27 PM
If this doesn't work as planned... Brian is planning to sell P-Body-shapped recreational fishing boats.

My luck it would take on water like my P body convertible. lol

turbo2point2
05-08-2008, 05:31 PM
"whats the actual weight savings over the stock front end?"

An estimate of weight savings for my car is around 50-60lbs. I will know more when the part is complete.

"If this doesn't work as planned... Brian is planning to sell P-Body-shapped recreational fishing boats.

Absolutely, equipped with a neon head hybrid inboard/outboard engine:D Maybe it's time for that kit....

turbo2point2
05-23-2008, 06:26 AM
Hey Gang, another small update. After some sweet talking to my friends Justin Cronk and Mike Marra, I convinced them to lend a hand in laying down the first couple layers of glass. I don't know how anything got done between laughing all day and watching the neighborhood people. I do know that Justin does his best work with a half a load of Crown Royal on, lol.

The part released as expected from the mold, and turned out nice for my first piece. The first 2 pics show the part just after the demolding. The second 2 are after a quick trimming of the edges. The part fits nicely and can even be removed and installed by myself. I still have some more work to do to it, like install all the mounting tabs, finish trimming and of course it needs paint. More updates to follow!!

8valves
05-23-2008, 06:50 AM
Very cool, I love the Weld Magnum's as well.

Frank
05-23-2008, 07:04 AM
You might want to be concerned if someone mistaken you for laughing at the neighborhood, which might get you killed. I was a little scared the last time I was there, lol.

Clay
05-23-2008, 08:24 AM
again, freakin bad arse! :)

contraption22
05-23-2008, 08:46 AM
Congratulations on it turning out so well Brian! Looks wicked!

2.216VTurbo
05-23-2008, 11:36 AM
Awesome Brian:thumb: I see you adapted a new style courtesy/dome light, You're leading the way again, I don't think anyone else has used that style:D 80 watts ought to be enough for reading maps and whatnot:lol:

turbo2point2
05-23-2008, 06:21 PM
"I see you adapted a new style courtesy/dome light, You're leading the way again, I don't think anyone else has used that style 80 watts ought to be enough for reading maps and whatnot"

LOL, quite a few have poked fun at my dome light. I may have to trim it though, it gets in the way when I'm driving. Or I could just lower the seat:D


"You might want to be concerned if someone mistaken you for laughing at the neighborhood, which might get you killed. I was a little scared the last time I was there, lol."

I hear ya Frank, hehe. The neighborhood has degraded a good bit over the years, but someone has to fix the junk they cruise around in.

cordes
05-23-2008, 08:20 PM
Thanks for the update. That is a sweet ride for sure.

R/T
05-24-2008, 08:24 PM
Waaaay too cool..... :thumb:

Dez
05-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Looking very good there :]

Keep up the great work.

turbo2point2
07-10-2008, 10:04 PM
IT RUNS!!! Fired it up for the first time since Nov. '06. Went off on the first turn of the key. Have to fix 2 minor coolant leaks and a trans fluid leak. I expected a lot more things to have to go over. Also need to finish wiring the car, it's about 90% complete after probably 20 hours into it. I really wanted to get a video of it running but didn't have a video camera handy.

Now, to iron out those small issues and head to the dyno for some full power tuning:thumb: I will post a link when I have a video ready.

BadAssPerformance
07-10-2008, 10:07 PM
Sweet!!!

Bringing it out to the Mopar Nats? :eyebrows:

contraption22
07-10-2008, 10:07 PM
Awesome man!

Pat
07-10-2008, 10:35 PM
Congrats Brian. Now get her tuned and out to the track!

mcsvt
07-11-2008, 12:52 AM
That's great Brian! :thumb:

neonkitten63
07-11-2008, 08:05 AM
So glad to hear it Brian! Can't wait to see her run at the track! :)

dds78910
07-11-2008, 09:09 AM
The car is looking good! I've been wanting to do a fiberglass setup for my car and this thread is very helpful. You have done a great job!

8valves
07-11-2008, 12:09 PM
Great news!

cordes
07-11-2008, 12:12 PM
That's great. I can't wait for the video.

turbo2point2
07-12-2008, 06:17 AM
"Bringing it out to the Mopar Nats? "

Sorry JT, I wish I could. Even though it is running, it seems that there is a never ending list of things to finish.

Fixed the trans leak friday. Had it running for a good 35 min. playing with the map. Starts and idles almost like a stocker even with the crane 18's. Thanks everyone for the kudos. Still tryin to get that video...

BadAssPerformance
07-12-2008, 08:46 AM
Bummer, but I hear ya on the neverending list... mine is all apart again trying to finish stuff taht did not gety fixed before SDAC, LOL!

DaveSkrab
07-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Awesome progress Brian!! Looking forward to seeing you and the car again soon. Maybe some shakedown runs at Cecil in the near future? or maybe shakedown runs at Cecil in November? ;)

At any rate, Keep up the Great work!

2.216VTurbo
07-15-2008, 12:30 AM
HURRY! Finish the BSX before the baby is born... Things tend to grind to a halt after that, believe me;)

turbo2point2
07-15-2008, 08:56 PM
Shakedown passes are definitely in the future, however I can't say just when. I think the car should be ready to go before Cecil in November. Bigger injectors are on the way, might need a fuel pump upgrade as well...

Thanks for the advice Alan. I will be busting my butt getting that car done before he gets here. I will be looking forward to spending a lot of time with him and my wife.

Ok, on to the good stuff. I uploaded 2 videos, unfortunately I had to shoot them with my digital camera because the dvd camera wouldn't work for some reason, so I apologive for grainy footage and audio.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPLGR4UCU_k
Cold startup


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw4hFBQQ0OE
warm restart with some interior footage

Enjoy!!

cordes
07-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Looks like it is running well. I can't wait to see some new times.

contraption22
07-15-2008, 10:55 PM
It seems to sound alot like the recording of the PPG car at the Chrysler museum!

Speedeuphoria
07-19-2008, 04:57 AM
looks good whats the 10 on that display box in 2nd video, vac?

briceturbosports
07-19-2008, 07:58 AM
looks great can't wait to see it run :clap:

mcsvt
07-19-2008, 11:10 AM
Sure does purr Brian!!

turbo2point2
07-19-2008, 11:40 AM
"looks good whats the 10 on that display box in 2nd video, vac?"

The 10 is the boost controller. I haven't set it up yet so the default settings are still there. Still haven't decided if I am going to use co2 to control it or not.

I think your are right Mike, it does sound kinda like that PPG car from what i can remember. As far as progress goes, I got some more wiring done and cleaned up a bit. Still need to wire the boost control solenoids, install replay arming switch and tidy up the rest of the wiring. Then install the new injectors and start tuning. Also I have to get a video of the car on the 2-step, it sounds menacing!

Reaper1
07-20-2008, 12:51 PM
When I first read about the new mods I got this evil little grin and laughed out loud! That thing is going to be SICK!!

8valves
07-22-2008, 12:26 PM
"looks good whats the 10 on that display box in 2nd video, vac?"

The 10 is the boost controller. I haven't set it up yet so the default settings are still there. Still haven't decided if I am going to use co2 to control it or not.

I think your are right Mike, it does sound kinda like that PPG car from what i can remember. As far as progress goes, I got some more wiring done and cleaned up a bit. Still need to wire the boost control solenoids, install replay arming switch and tidy up the rest of the wiring. Then install the new injectors and start tuning. Also I have to get a video of the car on the 2-step, it sounds menacing!

Is that an AMS1000 boost controller? We've used them on a few Vipers and they are fantastic to work with, especially when using C02 to control the gates. I would recommend it if you have the means to do it!

minigts
07-22-2008, 12:37 PM
Anyone notice how the engine DIDN'T move when he rev'ed it?! Dude, that's tight! Awesome looking AND sounding!

turbo2point2
07-23-2008, 05:59 AM
The boost controler is made by Velocity racing. It is an update of the MSBC-1 that Innovate used to sell. It can be used with CO2 to control wastegates. I will be eventually hooking up the CO2, but to expedite getting it to the dyno and down the track I think I will have to deal with manifold pressure:)

The AMS-1000 and the VRBC are very similar and actually work the same. But, I believe the AMS has inifinite amount of possible progressive boost combinations whereas the VRBC has 256. This is the same controller that my cousin runs on his turbo Hayabusa, 7.21 @ 206mph.

8valves
07-23-2008, 11:08 PM
The boost controler is made by Velocity racing. It is an update of the MSBC-1 that Innovate used to sell. It can be used with CO2 to control wastegates. I will be eventually hooking up the CO2, but to expedite getting it to the dyno and down the track I think I will have to deal with manifold pressure:)

The AMS-1000 and the VRBC are very similar and actually work the same. But, I believe the AMS has inifinite amount of possible progressive boost combinations whereas the VRBC has 256. This is the same controller that my cousin runs on his turbo Hayabusa, 7.21 @ 206mph.

As much as infinite sounds nice, I'd imagine 256 breakpoints will be more than adequate! Any reason you don't want to use the boost control function in BS3?

turbo2point2
07-24-2008, 06:34 AM
I had thought about using the BS3 for boost control, the main thing is that I had the VRBC before I got the BigStuff3. It also seems that most who use the BS3 system use external means of controlling boost. But there are some who like the internal boost a lot. I didn't want to use stock GM solenoids either, I think it would be hard to keep the lines on from all that boost:eyebrows:

Reaper1
07-24-2008, 10:41 AM
I've been trying to figure out what kind of solenoids are being used to control these high amount of boost. I've looked through McCaster, Grainger, as well as another huge electrical supply type place and come up with nothing really good. Can somebody point me int he right direction?

airagitated
07-25-2008, 11:39 AM
Two thumbs up for amazing dedication and excellent craftsmanship!

Now if you'll excuse me I have to get some of my own turbo projects done.


Mike.

8valves
07-25-2008, 12:12 PM
I've been trying to figure out what kind of solenoids are being used to control these high amount of boost. I've looked through McCaster, Grainger, as well as another huge electrical supply type place and come up with nothing really good. Can somebody point me int he right direction?

I know AEM has some 'noids for their system that are better at not clogging up with fuel particles that the GM style sensors do often on big boost/rich setups.

The AMS 1000 solenoids I've seen are hardcore, metal based, all that jazz. I assume they come with the system. They look very similar to a nitrous solenoid.

Reaper1
07-25-2008, 12:27 PM
OK. See, I'm looking for alternatives to the stock solenoids for a gear based controller I've designed. I just don't want to have to worry about the old stockers mesing up, or not being able to handle the pressure on one side of them('cause when one is closed it HAS to hold the pressure, otherwise the controller won't work right).

Thanks for the tip on the nitrous solenoids...that might actually be the ticket(although expensive!).

turbo2point2
07-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Do a search for "mac valve 36a-aaa-jdba-1ba" I believe these are the same or very similar to the AEM solenoids. I think they are around $20 each.

Reaper1
07-26-2008, 12:30 AM
Cool! Thanks for the tip. I was searching today before I saw this response and found some other options that might work for people as well. They are a tad more expensive, but for me it's local and if they have it in stock it'll be worth the extra money vs. the wait time to get the parts.

These are Ingersol-Rand pnumatic valves and I've seen them used for boost control applications. I have a design for a 3-stage, gear based boost control I want to build, so the combination of a 4-way valve and a 3-way valve would work perfect for my design!
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?from=Search&newSrch=yes&operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&action=Go%21&QueryString=6jj43
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?from=Search&newSrch=yes&operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&action=Go%21&QueryString=6jj52

What do you think about those?

Frank
07-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Cool! Thanks for the tip. I was searching today before I saw this response and found some other options that might work for people as well. They are a tad more expensive, but for me it's local and if they have it in stock it'll be worth the extra money vs. the wait time to get the parts.

These are Ingersol-Rand pnumatic valves and I've seen them used for boost control applications. I have a design for a 3-stage, gear based boost control I want to build, so the combination of a 4-way valve and a 3-way valve would work perfect for my design!
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?from=Search&newSrch=yes&operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&action=Go%21&QueryString=6jj43
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?from=Search&newSrch=yes&operator=keywordSearch&search_type=keyword&action=Go%21&QueryString=6jj52

What do you think about those?


The larger the valve, the harder it is to maintain fast valve movement in a PWM setting. When this happens, you draw more current and also cause more back EMF from the coil. While it may not matter, just be aware that your circuits may have to work hard and your response may decrease.

Reaper1
07-26-2008, 10:38 AM
I forgot to mention that the valves themselves don't regulate the boost level, they only select a pathway for the air, so the only time they will be switching is when the driver shifts gears(I'm desigining it for a 5-speed). So really almost ANY small electrical valve will do the job I need it to. I'm regulating boost via MBC's and Gus's "Ultimate Boost Controller" design.

Once I build this thing and see if it does work as I intend it, I'll release my design. So far though, unless you are willing to put faith in 15+ year old stock solenoids, it is almost going to be cheaper to BUY an electronic boost controller that has multiple stages. The reason I like mine is that once it is set where you want it, you don't have to mess with it anymore! Not only that, but you HAVE to adjust it under the hood(or you should). This eliminates that "a little more won't hurt" while in the middle of a race, plus the highest boost you can achieve is maxxed out by whatever the wastegate can arm tension is set at(which YOU set it there!), or the turbo.

The only real fault with mine is that it relies on MBCrs, which a lot of people don't particularly care for. Personally(knocking on wood), I've not had any major issues with them.

The good thing is that if it fails electrically, it defaults to the lowest boost setting, so you aren't stuck in "hi" boost where you can potentially fry your engine. It also should never allow "hi" boost in part throttle, unless you have the over-ride on.

Anyways...I spent a good deal of time thinking this thing through, but it's taking longer to build than I anticipated becuase I'm wanting to use good quality parts, not just rigged up becuase I'm VERY comfident it is going to work. Witht he good quality parts I want to use, I can be sure than any issues I have is either user error, or something stupid. The only anomoly in the whole thing is the MBC's. If they decide to be finiky it could throw it all out of whack, but that's something I'm going to have to deal with when I get there....

Dave
08-12-2008, 08:09 AM
Has the car made its maiden voyage yet?

turbo2point2
08-13-2008, 06:25 AM
"Has the car made its maiden voyage yet?"

Unfortunately not. I changed around the fuel system a bit. New pump, relocated cell to the stock location, new feed lines, etc. Now that the fuel system is taken care of, I can get down to tuning. Probably a dyno session or two to smooth it out and the off to the track.

Some shop testing showed that the new combo is very responsive. It builds boost suprisingly quick for the size of the turbo. Can't wait to get out there...

2.216VTurbo
08-13-2008, 10:28 AM
...Yeah, we're kinda waiting too Brian:D

Dave
08-14-2008, 09:52 AM
Can we atleast get a 2 step video?? :D

glht_omni
09-03-2008, 09:45 PM
that car is just retarted......in a GOOD way!!
awesome brian, that thing sounds sick.
and you are going a different route than SMP....safety first!
i really hope you blow past 700whp!!

turbo2point2
09-04-2008, 06:09 AM
"that car is just retarted......in a GOOD way!!
awesome brian, that thing sounds sick."

Thanks! A small update since my last. I've been playing around with the fuel tables, etc. getting the transient fueling tuned. I threw the larger injectors(160#) in last week in anticipation of getting on the dyno this week for some tuning.

So, I am off today to do some dyno tuning. I was hoping to hit the track this weekend but, a large storm is threatening...

Wish me luck!

BadAssPerformance
09-04-2008, 08:25 AM
Good luck! :thumb:

cordes
09-04-2008, 09:00 AM
160# injectors. Wow. Good luck on the dyno!

glht_omni
09-04-2008, 11:14 AM
good luck, yeah them some big-o injectors.
video on the dyno hopefully?

turbo2point2
09-04-2008, 09:07 PM
Thanks for the well wishing all. Got to the dyno @ 3:30 and loaded her up. Got it strapped down tight and warmed the car up. I made 3 pulls today, the printer was DOA so no printout til tomorrow.

First pull was a no boost pull to 4200rpm 162 hp

Second I added boost. Datalogger showed 10.6-10.8 psi of boost. If memory serves, 435 hp and 419 torque. AFR 10.6:1 7900rpm

Third pull I took some fuel out since the computer was pulling quite a bit out. Also added some more boost. datalogger showed a max of 11.5 psi boost. 473hp and 438tq. AFR 11.5-11.8. This was an interesting run, the left front tire threw a chunk of tread and hit me on the arm. Time to call it a day and get back to it another day. Not worth hurting anything. I will try and get back to the dyno next week for some more tuning and hopefully get it to the track next weekend. :D

Clay
09-04-2008, 09:11 PM
:eek: :hail:

HORY COW!!!!!!!! 11 psi and knockin on 500 psi!!!!!!!!!! SCHWEET!

mcsvt
09-04-2008, 09:48 PM
Brian is the tuning master :hail:

A few minutes with Bruce's car and every run got quicker!

Sounds like it's coming together :thumb:

glht_omni
09-04-2008, 09:59 PM
thats incredible! 162 hp on 0 psi and 475whp on 11psi!!!
soooo what the hell is it going to do on 25psi....700whp?

cordes
09-04-2008, 10:22 PM
Wow indeed.

20w/ashelby
09-04-2008, 11:17 PM
I can't believe I missed this thread until now but keep up the great work brian. I've never seen the car in person however I remember when you first completed the swap. I can't wait to see some full boost numbers and timeslips.

Reaper1
09-05-2008, 02:04 AM
Keep at it! I can't wait to see what this car will do!

86trbolancer
09-07-2008, 08:58 PM
What are you lookn at for max boost???

BTW very nice ride...i hope to be there 1 day

2.216VTurbo
09-07-2008, 11:21 PM
:faint: Nice tire shredding torque:D

Ubmbass
09-08-2008, 12:20 AM
What are you lookn at for max boost???

BTW very nice ride...i hope to be there 1 day

I would say it's not so much a question of boost, but a question of power.;)

glht_omni
09-08-2008, 12:39 AM
he is looking at putting down 700whp or better and has a damn good chance at it.
it definetly sounds like its that type of machine.
brian what were you putting down before on the old setup and at how many psi?

turbo2point2
09-08-2008, 06:20 AM
Thanks for the kind words everyone. I've been super excited since getting the car to the dyno. I am hoping to get back there Wednesday or Thursday for another tuning session.

To answer the how much boost question, as Josh stated, I would like to make over 700whp, but I am most concerned with having a car that gets down the track safely. That being said, I have felt that around 30-35psi would get the job done.

In regards to the old setup, I was pushing 27psi to run my fastest and quickest times. And the power was probably similar to what the car has already made on the new setup. But, these are dyno numbers not actual e.t's so until I hit the track, the dyno is just another tuning tool.

glht_omni
09-08-2008, 08:53 AM
thats awesome! i know you have to be excited if your making the same power now on 11psi as you were on 27psi!!!!

i think i speak for everyone, dyno video next time....please!

turboshad
09-09-2008, 02:58 PM
I totally didn't know you had another thread going on your car. Progress is looking awsome. I'm so happy to finally see some one make fibreglass parts using proper techniques and it definately shows in the final product. If I wore a hat it would definately be off to you and the quality of your build. It gives me inspiration in my own work. Power to the P-bodies :D

DJ

glht_omni
09-09-2008, 03:10 PM
www.hairyglass.com makes a few for fwd dodges, all3 gen daytonas, omni/charger and lebaron. they dont make a shadow kit and making your own unique mold has to be more satisfying.

8valves
09-09-2008, 09:48 PM
Brian, mains doing well for you so far?

What power per PSI are you estimating it's doing given a set AFR?

turbo2point2
09-10-2008, 06:50 AM
"If I wore a hat it would definately be off to you and the quality of your build. It gives me inspiration in my own work."

Thanks! I am glad that I can start to finally enjoy all the work and time to build it.

"Brian, mains doing well for you so far?"

Oh yeah! They help with keeping peace of mind as well:thumb:

"What power per PSI are you estimating it's doing given a set AFR?"

Hmm, if I take what it made with no boost vs. with boost, it works out to be 27. I was thinking low 20's, but I should have a better idea on Thursday.

rib256
09-12-2008, 03:10 PM
Thanks for thinking and doing outside of any box you can think of. Awesome work, and dedication to the hobby. What do you do for work when you are not shaming all of us into working on our rides?:hail:

DaveSkrab
09-12-2008, 06:20 PM
" but I should have a better idea on Thursday."

Thursday was yesterday... Any updates? Additionally, Keep up the GREAT work!

turbo2point2
09-13-2008, 07:17 PM
"What do you do for work when you are not shaming all of us into working on our rides?"

I am a mechanic. My father and I own a repair shop in Phila.

"Thursday was yesterday... Any updates? Additionally, Keep up the GREAT work!"

A small update, took the car on Thursday. First pull, the intercooler pipe split where I had the bov mounted. The bov has seen its last day on my car. Also, the balancer slipped, looks like it spun 15 degrees retarted. Since this is also a mount for my crank trigger, the timing was thrown off as well. Time to put a keyway in there(I think JT had a similar issue). So a few more bugs will be worked out and I should head back around mid week.

2.216VTurbo
09-14-2008, 12:26 AM
Crikey Brian! How much boost does it take to split an aluminum IC pipe? I know you can weld:thumb:...

8valves
09-14-2008, 12:22 PM
Crikey Brian! How much boost does it take to split an aluminum IC pipe? I know you can weld:thumb:...

Funny thing, a lot of factors can come into play with that. I made a wicked 4 core W-A intercooler for a special project at work and the endtank had a weld split on it at only 6 psi. Obviously that's not normal since I make all of the other intercoolers at work as well.

Turns out that the direction of the air coming through the core and how it hit the end tank seemed to be allowing the rather wide (20 3/8") facing flex at the two weld points causing it to fatigue and crack. That sucked.

turbo2point2
09-15-2008, 06:28 AM
Like Aaron said, it doesn't take much, in my case it was 11 psi. I think there is more to it though. Last time on the dyno the tires were causing some pretty rough vibrations. I don't think it was weld quality, I feel a combination of the bov on the outside of a mandrel bend, harsh vibrations and virtually no movement allowed(no silicone connectors) on that pipe made for a easy break. I will get a pic of it today.

Dave
09-17-2008, 07:32 AM
Pics?;)

turbo2point2
09-17-2008, 07:44 PM
Pics?



Here ya go!

2.216VTurbo
09-17-2008, 07:55 PM
Ah yes, the same kinda break I had on my Aluminum sheet metal intake. Each spot where the fuel rail boss was welded just 'popped' out, left me with two quarter sized holes:o I think it has something to do with the heat affected zone next to the weld... Been too long since that Jr College Metalurgy class:o

Sexy welds BTW Brian:thumb:

cordes
09-17-2008, 08:27 PM
Ah yes, the same kinda break I had on my Aluminum sheet metal intake. Each spot where the fuel rail boss was welded just 'popped' out, left me with two quarter sized holes:o I think it has something to do with the heat affected zone next to the weld... Been too long since that Jr College Metalurgy class:o

Sexy welds BTW Brian:thumb:

The vibrations couldn't help either. Probably a combination of a lot of factors.

Clay
09-17-2008, 09:51 PM
yeah, elbow probalby isnt the best place for that BOV. Concentrates more pressure on the outside of the turn. With the extra volume right there, ie pocket, it probalby makes a high pressure area right under the BOV due to the bend.

BadAssPerformance
09-17-2008, 11:26 PM
^^^ that and the fact that the metal on the outside of a bend is stretched thin and stressed so the welded area is annealed and the area next to the weld was still stressed so it is kinda brittle.

turbo2point2
09-18-2008, 06:27 AM
"Sexy welds BTW Brian"

Thanks Alan.

Im sure it was a combination of things that lead to its failure, but I can say that the bov can not break off now;)

8valves
09-18-2008, 01:06 PM
"Sexy welds BTW Brian"

Thanks Alan.

Im sure it was a combination of things that lead to its failure, but I can say that the bov can not break off now;)

Just don't run one. :)

Dave
09-18-2008, 08:59 PM
Just don't run one. :)

Is that how you do it on your twin turbo lambos? ;)

8valves
09-18-2008, 10:49 PM
Is that how you do it on your twin turbo lambos? ;)

Nope, they run twin TiAL 50's.

With Lee's "big" twin car (twin 90mm's) we don't run one though. Just a chance for failure in reality. With a race car that sees some street duty from time to time, with an auto especially, we deemed it not necessary.

I would think Brian's could get away without one as well. A little compressor surge out of the burnout box makes for some serious intimidation at the beams too :p

turbo2point2
09-19-2008, 06:18 AM
I would think Brian's could get away without one as well. A little compressor surge out of the burnout box makes for some serious intimidation at the beams too

I removed it permanently from the car. I am sure it will be fine without it. I may try and get to the dyno before the weekend is over. Gotta get it done, the baby is almost here!:thumb:

2.216VTurbo
09-19-2008, 11:26 AM
I removed it permanently from the car. I am sure it will be fine without it. I may try and get to the dyno before the weekend is over. Gotta get it done, the baby is almost here!:thumb:
Hurry! EVERYTHING else gets sidelined when Dad duties start:nod: Still my kids are the best part of my life:amen:

turbo2point2
09-23-2008, 08:12 AM
A bit of bad news, got to the dyno on sat. for another round of tuning. Started out a bit rough, cam trigger was giving me fits and throwing off timing. Got the cam trigger fixed and the car woke up. On the fifth pull after the small issues were fixed, #4 connecting rod suffered a major failure. It let go around 7700 rpm, the car was pulling nicely. The rod failure took out the crank, block, oil pan, pump, etc. I pulled it apart yesterday, the aluminum rod came out in 8 pieces. There are no signs of any type of heat or fault of the tune up.

This obviously throws a major curve ball my way. I am in the process of trying to get the major parts need to fix her up.

On a side note, the first trip to the dyno yeilded horsepower numbers that seemed a bit too high for the amount of boost the car was making. After going over the setup with the dyno operator, the numbers seem a bit more realistic. 11psi yeilded 301 running a rich 10.8:1. The pull before the rod let go yeilded 418hp @ 16 psi and was still on the up slope at 8100 rpm.

Pics to come.

Clay
09-23-2008, 08:36 AM
:( Awwwww man, that sucks!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry to hear, but I guess this means you get to build it stronger? ;)

mcsvt
09-23-2008, 08:43 AM
:faint: o man that is rough, sorry to hear that Brain.

If I have anything you need your welcome to it!

cordes
09-23-2008, 10:19 AM
I am very sorry to hear that. Hang in there and you will get it together in the end. Hopefully you are taking it better than I would have.

BadAssPerformance
09-23-2008, 01:18 PM
Ouch! :(

What kind/brand of Al rod was it?

2.216VTurbo
09-23-2008, 01:18 PM
Dude!:( No way that rod shoulda let go at that HP or RPM's We're pullling for you and personally I'm impressed that you are right back on the new build. If it were me, I'd drag it into the corner of the shop and throw a cover over it, and probably not look at it again for a looong time.:o I'm glad you are not me:hail:

BadAssPerformance
09-23-2008, 01:31 PM
I'm glad you are not me:hail:

the rest of us are too, only enough room for one Alan ;)

I agree 100% tho, kickass that you're back at it! :clap: After I put the rod out of the 2.2L it took 8-10 months before I looked at the Z again!

8valves
09-23-2008, 05:06 PM
I sent you a PM Brian.

turbo2point2
09-24-2008, 06:08 AM
Thanks everyone for your offers, I will certainly let you know if I can use some help.

The rod was manufactured by GRP, of course they couldn't understand why the rod failed, but they did say that total failures such as mine usually happen on the dyno. The did suggest I upgrade to their pro series aluminum rod, but I will be going with steel this time around.

I have too much time into this thing to sit and wait. I need some track time this year!

Dave
09-24-2008, 07:20 AM
:eek: wow! Why not go with a forged H-beam? They're just as strong and will usually last a little longer. Unless the RPMs may be of concern. How high are you planning on revving this thing?

Great numbers by the way! I could certainly see near 700WHP at 30psi with a gain of 23.5WHP per 1 psi.

BadAssPerformance
09-24-2008, 01:59 PM
Ouch!!! :(

2.216VTurbo
09-24-2008, 05:14 PM
I've been talking to Pauter Machine out of Chula Vista, CA about my next set of rods:evil: Ever looked at thier stuff? Lots of ProMod class VW guys are running them with good results. I can borrow some for pics if you like.

Dave
09-24-2008, 06:06 PM
I've been talking to Pauter Machine out of Chula Vista, CA about my next set of rods:evil: Ever looked at thier stuff? Lots of ProMod class VW guys are running them with good results. I can borrow some for pics if you like.

For a set of 6 for $1,500 they better have good results. Unfortunately theyre one of the few companies who make rods for us. I think turbo mopars have more rod manufacturers than us VW guys.

CSXRT4
09-24-2008, 06:51 PM
Couldnt you run an aftermarket rod for an SRT-4?? I thought I had heard that the stock SRT-4 rods were the same dimensions as the 80s turbo dodge rods except the wrist pin size is larger.

2.216VTurbo
09-24-2008, 06:57 PM
For a set of 6 for $1,500 they better have good results. Unfortunately theyre one of the few companies who make rods for us. I think turbo mopars have more rod manufacturers than us VW guys.

Uh, no. I'm gonna pay less than $800. for a custom set. Who are the "Turbo Mopars" rod manufacturers you refer to? GRP, Eagle, TU's K1 rods? I have a set of the K1's for another motor, they are nice pieces but they are not gonna build me a custom length/dimension/pin size rod...

BadAssPerformance
09-24-2008, 07:10 PM
Brian, did that rod used to look like this?

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10482&d=1222297775

turbo2point2
09-24-2008, 08:22 PM
"Brian, did that rod used to look like this?"

Sure did. I have three others that still look like that:D

Alan, I have heard many good things about Pauter rods. A friend spoke with them yesterday, for what I needed, it would take approx 2 weeks and somewhere around $250-$275 a piece. Pretty much, the upper end of what I wanted to spend.

I have a brand new set of Oliver rods in my hand that are almost a perfect match to what I run. After I double check the specs I will decide on what I will install into the next block.

BadAssPerformance
09-24-2008, 08:27 PM
Damn... remind me not to rev my rods that high then :eek:

unless you think it was more crank mains than rod?

Ubmbass
09-24-2008, 09:56 PM
I am very curious to know what caused that failure., I have the same rods in my engine and I would HATE for that to happen to me.. :( sorry to hear about it! good luck on your next build

Ondonti
09-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Thank you for going with steel. I believe a few others lost their 16v motors (ohio rob?) to aluminum rods.

Pauter is a great rod. They often use them when upgrading mitsu 6g72s, and while they look heavy, they are actually lighter then 6g72 (3.0) stock rods, but they will handle ungodly amounts of power (nobody has ever found a limit or had even a fatigue failure).

Carillo would be great but sounds like they are out of your price range.

Pat
09-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Damn... remind me not to rev my rods that high then :eek:

unless you think it was more crank mains than rod?

Hey JT, don't rev your rods as high as Brian. ;)

Brian...that sucks. How soon is the baby coming?

BadAssPerformance
09-24-2008, 10:33 PM
Hey JT, don't rev your rods as high as Brian. ;)



Thanks Pat :thumb:

Directconnection
09-24-2008, 11:13 PM
Thank you for going with steel. I believe a few others lost their 16v motors (ohio rob?) to aluminum rods.

Pauter is a great rod. They often use them when upgrading mitsu 6g72s, and while they look heavy, they are actually lighter then 6g72 (3.0) stock rods, but they will handle ungodly amounts of power (nobody has ever found a limit or had even a fatigue failure).

Carillo would be great but sounds like they are out of your price range.

Brian's rods did not destruct due to not being up to the task. Stocks rods handle 420whp. GRP rods are very good. Something was wrong in the prep, and not the rod itself.

Brian, did you do any special prep like buffing, sanding, etc...? A simple nick causes a severe stress riser.

One of the best steel rods out there is Crower's Maxi-Lites. $2,200 for a SBC set..but they are the cat's meow.

2.216VTurbo
09-24-2008, 11:35 PM
Brian's rods did not destruct due to not being up to the task. Stocks rods handle 420whp. GRP rods are very good. Something was wrong in the prep, and not the rod itself.

Brian, did you do any special prep like buffing, sanding, etc...? A simple nick causes a severe stress riser.

One of the best steel rods out there is Crower's Maxi-Lites. $2,200 for a SBC set..but they are the cat's meow.

Hmm, Steve. Sounds like you have it all figured out what happened inside Brians motor. Crystal ball must be working huh?:rolleyes:

Did you read back your post to see how it comes off? It is a bit insulting to a VERY competant engine builder...

Reaper1
09-25-2008, 12:19 AM
While I agree with Steve about stress risers, by looking at the rod is shows "necking" just under the wrist pin indicating the rod suffered from a tensil stress failier. This is the area that rods fail most typically, but it usually happens on decleration. The necking is a result of the rod stretching. There are a few things that come to mind with this. The first thing I thought about was rpm...it failed around 7700rpm. In my thinking I'm taking in to account the mass if the piston assembly and thinking about the forces it exerts on the rod at those velocities....it's quite a bit! Now, I don't know what the specs are for the GRP rods, but could it be that they are not designed to handle that sort of rpm combined with whatever mass those pistons might be?

Another possibility comes from a friend of mine's experience with the LW stock rods in his roundy-round cars. He told me that they experienced failiers in that same location with the LW rods when using pressed pins. However, if they made the rods so they were floating pins they had pretty decent success with them. This appearantly has something to do with letting the rod move ever so slightly so it doesn't get ----ed. Now, what if for some odd reason the piston pin became tight in its bore on the rod and caused a bind?

Another idea...similar to the above one...what if there was excessive drag on one part of the rod, either on the crank side or the piston? That would also cause a tensil stress on the part.

It could also very well be that the rod was improperly manufactured. It sucks to think about that, but it's completely possible.

One last idea for this post...what if a foreign object caused a stress riser on the rod that happened to be flaoting around in the crankcase. I know...unlikely, but still possible.

Directconnection
09-25-2008, 02:23 AM
Hmm, Steve. Sounds like you have it all figured out what happened inside Brians motor. Crystal ball must be working huh?:rolleyes:

Did you read back your post to see how it comes off? It is a bit insulting to a VERY competant engine builder...

I work with rods of all kinds and makes all day so I do know what I am talking about. Oliver, Crower, Eagle junk, Carrillo, BME, GRP, King, etc..

Needless to say... I was referring to Brent's post about not liking aluminum rods and assuming they are subject to coming apart for no apparent reason... which is not the case. Nowhere's was I talking about Brian except for a possible nick or polishing. Other sentence when I said "prep" I was referring to the company and/or machinist's prep... ie: wrong torque spec.

Your post was a "bit insulting" to me as a "competent" engine machinist. :thumb:

turbo2point2
09-25-2008, 07:02 AM
Brian, did you do any special prep like buffing, sanding, etc...? A simple nick causes a severe stress riser.

Nothing whatsoever. I always take extreme care with handling, installation and final assembly.

Don't worry Alan, in no way did I take Steve's comment as a shot. I feel the same as he does, this rod came apart for a reason.


How soon is the baby coming?

In as little as 2 weeks!! Yikes:D

Pat
09-25-2008, 08:24 AM
In as little as 2 weeks!! Yikes:D

Wow, that's great. Best of luck to both you and your wife. Kids are both the most frustrating and most rewarding thing you'll ever do. So far for me (we have three), it's been a wild ride to say the least!

Was there any sign of lack of oil on any of the bearings? If the oiling system wasn't keeping up with the rpm, maybe you were seeing additional stresses on the big end of the rod. Just a guess...

Ubmbass
09-25-2008, 08:59 PM
Well, IDK if this means anything to anybody.. but Stephane ran grp aluminum rods in his car revving to 9700and putting down 1300 hp.. So I would say there isnt anything wrong with the rods.. Sounds like something caused it to fail, I would say maybe faulty manufacturing.. who knows.

"Top Fuel" Bender
09-25-2008, 10:45 PM
Mmmm Pauter

Gotta love'em
I've had mine in since '98-99 never had the oil pan off since
along with my wiseco pistons
firm believer in both

My bother-in-law has a pretty built vw bug
pauter rod came out of a cracked piston, went thru the engine block and got sucked back in (never let go of the crank)
took it a machine shop and there was less the .010" deflection in the rod after all that :hail:
of course they have them ready to go for the vw crowd so he got another one right away
his motor has been together longer then mine
definetly worth the wait

talking about weight my chromoly rods are the 6.250" long and weigh less then l.w. factory rods

contraption22
09-25-2008, 10:56 PM
Well, IDK if this means anything to anybody.. but Stephane ran grp aluminum rods in his car revving to 9700and putting down 1300 hp.. So I would say there isnt anything wrong with the rods.. Sounds like something caused it to fail, I would say maybe faulty manufacturing.. who knows.

How many passes did stephane make on a set of rods?

WickedShelby88
09-26-2008, 01:28 AM
I've done quite a bit of reading in my day about engine builds.. One thing stand true. Aluminum does not equal longevity. However as young as this engine was it sounds like a defect of some sort. When you said you had aluminum rods in that engine JT I had to cringe. I wonder what the rod ratio is on a 2.4? Pauter FTW~! Crower makes some extremely good rods as well. Thats what were in my SVO and I can't count how many times that quick revving SOB of a 2.3 bounced off the rev limiter at 6700 with just sportsman rods.. Was making 280 peak hp though a far cry from your engine. Looking at the rod though and knowing the way force is exerted it looks as though it broke on the bottom first and literally tore off into pieces. I really dislike the way aluminum handles those kind of loads. That beast is just awesome though Brian... Sounds like the one thing you won't ever be is slow;)

2.216VTurbo
09-26-2008, 02:03 AM
Funny thing is when I talked to 'Don' (the rod guru) at Pauter Machine about a custom set, he said he'd have to look and see if he had done a 'similar' set for a 2.2 Chrysler so he wouldn't have to start from scratch on the programing. Seems like he would remember doing a few sets... Maybe each set has been custom so far:eyebrows:?

Ondonti
09-26-2008, 04:25 AM
I work with rods of all kinds and makes all day so I do know what I am talking about. Oliver, Crower, Eagle junk, Carrillo, BME, GRP, King, etc..

Needless to say... I was referring to Brent's post about not liking aluminum rods and assuming they are subject to coming apart for no apparent reason... which is not the case. Nowhere's was I talking about Brian except for a possible nick or polishing. Other sentence when I said "prep" I was referring to the company and/or machinist's prep... ie: wrong torque spec.

Your post was a "bit insulting" to me as a "competent" engine machinist. :thumb:

Nice, you cant apologize for pretending I said something and you delete my post.

Sounds competent to me. Dont tell lies about me then delete my personal defense. Coward.
Try deleting your Slander and apologizing instead.
Be a man and at least throw some PM's around.

Ondonti
09-26-2008, 04:27 AM
How many passes did stephane make on a set of rods?

He said he went a whole season, checked the bearings halfway through, didnt replace them, and kept running the rest of the season. That was on an 8 second year.

Now Corby, the brand is the same but did Stephane actually run the same GRP rods?

Frank
09-26-2008, 06:13 AM
Nice, you cant apologize for pretending I said something and you delete my post.

Sounds competent to me. Dont tell lies about me then delete my personal defense. Coward.
Try deleting your Slander and apologizing instead.
Be a man and at least throw some PM's around.

Actually a different mod deleted your post for name calling. If you keep it up.... well you know what is up.

turbo2point2
09-26-2008, 06:26 AM
Was there any sign of lack of oil on any of the bearings? If the oiling system wasn't keeping up with the rpm, maybe you were seeing additional stresses on the big end of the rod. Just a guess...



No sign of any oil issues. Every rod and main bearing, minus the failed cylinder, are in excellent shape. The crank would show some bluing from heat, there are no traces of heat. I was thinking of maybe having one or all of the rods tested to look for any possible clue as to what may have happened.

"Top Fuel" Bender
09-26-2008, 08:32 AM
Funny thing is when I talked to 'Don' (the rod guru) at Pauter Machine about a custom set, he said he'd have to look and see if he had done a 'similar' set for a 2.2 Chrysler so he wouldn't have to start from scratch on the programing. Seems like he would remember doing a few sets... Maybe each set has been custom so far:eyebrows:?


well it was a long time ago plus yes mine were custom
wiseco had mine listed as stroker 2.2 pistons when Ken called about them

here just found this

Clay
09-26-2008, 09:43 AM
Nice, you cant apologize for pretending I said something and you delete my post.

Sounds competent to me. Dont tell lies about me then delete my personal defense. Coward.
Try deleting your Slander and apologizing instead.
Be a man and at least throw some PM's around.

Ondonti bite your tounge. Steve didnt delete your post, and you did call him names in that post. .

pot meet kettle.

Speedeuphoria
09-26-2008, 01:48 PM
Funny thing is when I talked to 'Don' (the rod guru) at Pauter Machine about a custom set, he said he'd have to look and see if he had done a 'similar' set for a 2.2 Chrysler so he wouldn't have to start from scratch on the programing. Seems like he would remember doing a few sets... Maybe each set has been custom so far:eyebrows:?

Pauter should have them in stock for a SRT-4, they did when I bought mine.
The only spec I see thats different is the "Big end width" and "Small end width". Mine shows 1.012" for those while "Top Fuel bender" shows 1.020". Well other then the pin size and his custom length.


Mine say 658 grams for weight with the stock 5.945" length and 464 grams big end weight(this is with .8665" pin).

8valves
09-26-2008, 05:55 PM
He said he went a whole season, checked the bearings halfway through, didnt replace them, and kept running the rest of the season. That was on an 8 second year.

Now Corby, the brand is the same but did Stephane actually run the same GRP rods?

I generally don't see a big difference in al. rods these days from mfr to mfr, do you? They all run a grooved cap setup of some sort, and all have a basic dsign pattern except for some Brooks pieces.

I know the 04 season pro stock rods from Darts engine are spot on besides dimensional changes to ours. They rev a lot higher and make a lot more power, although the R/S ratio is far better too so who's to judge?

Directconnection
09-26-2008, 07:31 PM
No sign of any oil issues. Every rod and main bearing, minus the failed cylinder, are in excellent shape. The crank would show some bluing from heat, there are no traces of heat. I was thinking of maybe having one or all of the rods tested to look for any possible clue as to what may have happened.

Just checking back into this thread... (wow did I miss some things)

What did they reccomend for torque on your bolts? 3/8 or 7/16?

Some aluminum rods come with a 3/8" bolt and at work, we almost had an issue with thye torque spec being used for a 7/16" (45ftlbs vs 75)

What did they stretch at when you torqued them?

Here's the exact engine in question: 388" SBC w/.800+ lift!

Directconnection
09-26-2008, 07:46 PM
I generally don't see a big difference in al. rods these days from mfr to mfr, do you? They all run a grooved cap setup of some sort, and all have a basic dsign pattern except for some Brooks pieces.

I agree... yet disagree.:D The serrations are what you are talking about and they really do a great job w/alignment., But, saying they are mostly all the same would be like saying an Oliver I-Beam is like an Esgle I-beam, or closer yet... Carrilo H-beam vs Eagle H-beam;)

My point earlier was not a slam as 2 people took it... I was pointing out that his rod should NOT have had a failure as new as they were, and at that power level. #1) a turbo rod sees alot less stress due to the backpressure in the turbine causing a slight resistance on the TDC exhaust stroke. It is this rapid decelleration that causes a rod to let go. Compound that with someone hitting 8k and snapping off the gas and engine braking to slow down. #2) they were newish #3) Reputable company #4) Brian assembled the engine and is not a hack as we all know.

This leaves open the window for how? Usually, a rod lets go at the BIG end, not the small end *from what I have seen* I have 2 examples I could post, one of an H-beam on big block Chrysler (over-revved) and another on a BB Chevy aluminum rod (at the shop still) All failures I have seen are always on the big end on steel rods. Usually, a crack develops out of the bolt holes and makes it's way. EVERY race engine we does gets a full mag job looking for cracks (crank/rods).

Talking to a Top Fuel team years ago, they don't trash their aluminum rods based on passes... it's by the bolt stretch spec. (we do the same at work for most, too)

Back to the "how" ??? Maybe a handler dropped it and created a stress riser? Maybe a bad forging? Bad machine work on the threads? Wrong torque supplied? Defective bolt? etc....

Ondonti
09-27-2008, 04:34 AM
Actually a different mod deleted your post for name calling. If you keep it up.... well you know what is up.

Oh Ill keep whatever I need to up when staff members are slandering me.
Why don't you try playing fair with the moderation? I guess rickp aint the only bad gang in town.

Ondonti
09-27-2008, 04:37 AM
I generally don't see a big difference in al. rods these days from mfr to mfr, do you? They all run a grooved cap setup of some sort, and all have a basic dsign pattern except for some Brooks pieces.

I know the 04 season pro stock rods from Darts engine are spot on besides dimensional changes to ours. They rev a lot higher and make a lot more power, although the R/S ratio is far better too so who's to judge?

Well they may look the same but who knows how careful they are about the quality of the aluminum.
I think that is one of the things that separates good Steel rods, quality control of the alloys they use.

I am not an aluminum rod hater since they have put up with 11,000 rpms in a 6g7x mitsu. Aluminum was not used to save weight but to help absorb some of the vibrations that crack the soso stock crankshafts (they also run stock heavy flywheels and pulleys to help stop the vibrations/flexing/whip). I guess the aluminum rods somehow soak up some of that nastiness.

I dont see the point of trying to pick up 2 horsepower running aluminum rods unless you are trying to compete in a heavily restricted racing class or are using them to bandaid something.

Ondonti
09-27-2008, 05:16 AM
Also, turbocharged motors tend to bend rods rather then have them let go from RPM's. You cant really compare a pansy 1000hp v8 putting 125hp on each rod to a 800 hp 4 cylinder putting 200hp to each rod..especially when each rod is half the size.

Those turbo 4 cylinder rods are dealing with 2-5x as much compression (per rod size) then comparably built v8's. Usually the stock rods can already deal with ridiculous rpms, so the better aftermarket rods, built to withstand higher power, dont even wink at the RPM's

So they all tend to fail at the small end, then carnage ensues depending on how long the motor is run after the bend.

The bend is usually from detonation, or on older rods, just fatigue (with a few previous bouts of detonation weakening the rod).

Reaper1
09-27-2008, 10:05 AM
The compression usually isn't what causes a rod(in this case it is effectively a column) to buckle. If you look up specifications for different alloys, usually the compression strength is the same as the shear strength becuase buckling actually happens due to shear. If the rod is ----ed, it could induce a side loading that could induce a bending moment. THAT can cause buckling.

The thing is, that rod(this is soley based on the pictures I've seen) shows signs of tension failier at the small end of the rod. The rest of the pieces just look like they were sent through a shredder...the breaks all look like brittle fracture, but that is going to happen when it gets beat all up inside the engine.

Directconnection
09-27-2008, 10:08 PM
Brent... rods BREAK from RPMs as I mentioned. Rods BEND only from compressive forces such as detonation or hydraulic lock. And N/A is much harder on a on rod than turbocharging. That is why our 2.2 HD stock rods can handle so much abuse like Reeves for instance. 450whp and they are much inferior to a stock SB Chevy rod, as they should be by design. Think of that piston's acceleration and especially the decelerative forces as rpms increase,and the piston's mass becomes compounded exponentially as the rod is trying to put the brakes on at TDC. Compression won't bend a rod... it's the pressure rise that can and the two are seperate identities.:love:



Also, turbocharged motors tend to bend rods rather then have them let go from RPM's. You cant really compare a pansy 1000hp v8 putting 125hp on each rod to a 800 hp 4 cylinder putting 200hp to each rod..especially when each rod is half the size.

Those turbo 4 cylinder rods are dealing with 2-5x as much compression (per rod size) then comparably built v8's. Usually the stock rods can already deal with ridiculous rpms, so the better aftermarket rods, built to withstand higher power, dont even wink at the RPM's

So they all tend to fail at the small end, then carnage ensues depending on how long the motor is run after the bend.

The bend is usually from detonation, or on older rods, just fatigue (with a few previous bouts of detonation weakening the rod).

turbo2point2
09-28-2008, 01:00 AM
What did they reccomend for torque on your bolts? 3/8 or 7/16?

Some aluminum rods come with a 3/8" bolt and at work, we almost had an issue with thye torque spec being used for a 7/16" (45ftlbs vs 75)

What did they stretch at when you torqued them?



My rods came with 3/8 ARP fasteners. The torque recommended was 50 ftlbs. I torqued them with a stretch gauge to .006". Every rod bolt was measured and identical in overall length prior to installation. This was double checked because of the rods being reused.



Back to the "how" ??? Maybe a handler dropped it and created a stress riser? Maybe a bad forging? Bad machine work on the threads? Wrong torque supplied? Defective bolt? etc....


Anything is possible Steve. One of the things about the failed rod pieces I have found is that the threads from the rod were pulled out/missing. Not sure if it has any bearing on what happened or not. The rear of the pan shows where a bolt had punctured it. The inside of the block shows how the big end was forced into it. I think the fracturing on the small end was caused when the piston smacked the head. I do feel that the failure started on the big end.

Directconnection
09-28-2008, 04:37 AM
Brian, how close are the big ends to the block? Also, what is the deck height of the piston in reference to the head?

Aluminum rods require more clearance due to them stretching a bit more and probably due to heat causing them to grow as well.

Supposedly... and this is 2nd hand info from a guy who builds top fuel nitro engines... that a TF piston should just touch the chamber of the head if set up properly. I wouldn't go that far myself... Guy at work has a KB hemi at 540ci and BAE former TF Nitro heads. Bryant crank... BME aluminum rods... 14-71 ... sweet engine.

Not looking back at the pics... did the rod bolt break, or as you say...just pulled the threads out? They didn't feel sloppy thread-wise?

50ftlbs and .006" sounds about right. I ask... because the SBC in the pic I posted had the build started by one of our shop's engine builders (guy with the KB) He didn't have time to assemble it and passed the job onto another engine builder at our shop. Told him the bolts were 85ftlbs w/moly and went home for the day. Mike asks me if that sounds right, and I noticed they were only 3/8" bolts! Good thing we were both skeptical.... 45-50vs 85 surely would have taxed those bolts!

glht_omni
09-29-2008, 12:41 AM
Mmmm Pauter

Gotta love'em
I've had mine in since '98-99 never had the oil pan off since
along with my wiseco pistons
firm believer in both

My bother-in-law has a pretty built vw bug
pauter rod came out of a cracked piston, went thru the engine block and got sucked back in (never let go of the crank)
took it a machine shop and there was less the .010" deflection in the rod after all that :hail:
of course they have them ready to go for the vw crowd so he got another one right away
his motor has been together longer then mine
definetly worth the wait

talking about weight my chromoly rods are the 6.250" long and weigh less then l.w. factory rods

so how much money and time are the pauter rods?

badandy
10-15-2008, 12:04 PM
Oh Ill keep whatever I need to up when staff members are slandering me.
Why don't you try playing fair with the moderation? I guess rickp aint the only bad gang in town.

Whoa! :mad:

Man, I gotta ask you...do you have your own garage?

Dave
10-25-2008, 12:17 AM
so how much money and time are the pauter rods?

I don't know how much they charge for 2.2/2.5 rods, although on my 2.8 V6 Volkswagen, Pauter wants $1,200 for a set of Chrome Moly Steel I-beams. You'll pay for them, but I doubt they'll break. ;)

Speedeuphoria
10-25-2008, 01:20 AM
$800 a set, thats what I paid and last I knew was the going price. So $200 a rod but any specs you want, long rod ect.. same price as the stock size even if they have those in stock on the shelf

black86glhs
10-25-2008, 01:35 AM
Brian, great name BTW!! I know from talking to everyone that you are one of the best engine guys, but damn! That is one of the best setups I have seen in years!! Definitely deserves a toast.
I take it you are in the process of putting together another bottom end at this time? I would love to see this thing run down a track.:thumb:

Ondonti
10-25-2008, 01:55 AM
Brent... rods BREAK from RPMs as I mentioned. Rods BEND only from compressive forces such as detonation or hydraulic lock. And N/A is much harder on a on rod than turbocharging. That is why our 2.2 HD stock rods can handle so much abuse like Reeves for instance. 450whp and they are much inferior to a stock SB Chevy rod, as they should be by design. Think of that piston's acceleration and especially the decelerative forces as rpms increase,and the piston's mass becomes compounded exponentially as the rod is trying to put the brakes on at TDC. Compression won't bend a rod... it's the pressure rise that can and the two are seperate identities.:love:

I didnt say anything about static compression, i am talking about compression force.
Turbo motors are only easier on rods when it comes to long term RPM durability.
Turbo motors are much worse on rods for compressive force.

Why are you constantly trying to correct me on things I never said?

If you want to say that turbo motors usually have RPM failures instead of bending failures, you wont get far. If you are talking upgraded rods, then that is a different ballgame. Upgraded rods will usually pound out the bearings or crack the crank or break the piston pin bosses before bending, but upgrading a rod doesn't mean it has a very good fastener or was installed correctly so RPM failures are still hiding around the corner :(

One problem with diagnosis is that when a rod fails, it is likely to be destroyed on the big end and the small end by the time you shut down the motor. Sometimes you get lucky if you are just "skirting" the problem but if you go way beyond what is safe, then carnage :P

Ondonti
10-25-2008, 02:08 AM
The compression usually isn't what causes a rod(in this case it is effectively a column) to buckle. If you look up specifications for different alloys, usually the compression strength is the same as the shear strength becuase buckling actually happens due to shear. If the rod is ----ed, it could induce a side loading that could induce a bending moment. THAT can cause buckling.

The thing is, that rod(this is soley based on the pictures I've seen) shows signs of tension failier at the small end of the rod. The rest of the pieces just look like they were sent through a shredder...the breaks all look like brittle fracture, but that is going to happen when it gets beat all up inside the engine.

If what you say is true, then it hopefully its not a quality control problem with the rods. Maybe just bad luck.


But you are absolutly wrong on turbo motor rod failures. Just about every turbo motor (with stock rods) that suffers rod failure, bends the rod.
We already know that turbo motors are easier on rods regarding RPM.

Turbo rods almost always fail from detonation. I have seen some fail (bend) after running on the ragged edge for a long time, but usually there is some detonation that has also weakened the rod.

Like i said before, small displacement turbo motors are handling 2-4x more compressive forces then most v8's, AND their rods are much much much smaller, so yes, they bend, and they bend often!
You cant compare to what you have experienced in the v8 world. They are nothing alike. The v8's are hardly working when they put 50hp/cylinder into a rod more the double the size of 4 banber. But the 4 cylinder is putting 100-200hp per cylinder into a rod half the size.

What do you think happens when you ask a rod that is half the size, to do 4x the work?
When you are talking small displacement motors, bending rods becomes an issue that v8 guys never had to worry about.

Reaper1
10-25-2008, 05:56 PM
But you are absolutly wrong on turbo motor rod failures. Just about every turbo motor (with stock rods) that suffers rod failure, bends the rod.
We already know that turbo motors are easier on rods regarding RPM.

I'm just going to smile and nod "yes" here. How many engines have you been through due to rods bending? You PERSONALLY? How many engines have you seen that bent a rod that had NO OTHER problems besides running a lot of boost?

I think the fact is here that people that have these problems you are describing have engines that were never designed to have boosted type forces put on them and the rods were not designed for those loads. So, yes, buckling CAN occure if the rods are not designed for those loads. This is due to many different reasons ranging from the alloy choice, heat treatment, area moment of inertia, inherant stress risers, ect.

However, if the rods WERE designed for the loads I'd just about put money on that if a rod bent(as in buckled from compressive forces) there was some other issue that contributed to the failier and boost was only a catylist.



Like i said before, small displacement turbo motors are handling 2-4x more compressive forces then most v8's, AND their rods are much much much smaller, so yes, they bend, and they bend often!

The only reason *I* can think of for a V8 rod being larger is to deal with the tensil stress put on it due to the larger mass of the piston/pin assembly. Other than that they will put not more compressive force on a rod than a 4-banger car...and the alloys all have the same properties!

If you ever get to see a F1 rod it is really a sight to behold! They are very short and stubby and have a pretty large effective cross sectional area(compared in ratio with other engines). But the internal components are comparitively small to a V8 or even our engines, why to they need such large(cross section wise) rods? Three letters: R P M. They need to be able to handle the forces that the iniertia of the pistons, ect. put on them.

Anyways, point being is that to buckle a rod takes a LOT of force if there are no other issues with the engine or tune. That is why I am saying that a rod that is designed to handle forces above and beyond stock power should NOT have that issue, all else being equal and fair. I honestly have a hard time believing that one of our engines, yes even one built as much as this one, could develop enough force to buckle a rod(aftermarkent hi-performance such as the one that failed) if there were no other issues running on gasoline(race gas or pump).


Turbo rods almost always fail from detonation. I have seen some fail (bend) after running on the ragged edge for a long time, but usually there is some detonation that has also weakened the rod.

Detonation will do two things, it will cause the big and small ends of the rod to become out of round, which can then enable the rod to be at angles wich willc uase the forces to put a beding moment on them, and ti will also cold work the metal and fatigue it, which in the end will lead to brittle fracture over time.

Size only has a part in how a mechanical object reacts to loads. The shape, alloy, tempering, and manufacture ALL have important roles in how "strong" a part will be. There's a LOT more behind the scenes than just...oh look...it's smaller! That only has a little bit to do with it honestly.

Directconnection
10-25-2008, 06:39 PM
Good post Reaper!

Dave
10-27-2008, 07:33 AM
Size only has a part in how a mechanical object reacts to loads. The shape, alloy, tempering, and manufacture ALL have important roles in how "strong" a part will be. There's a LOT more behind the scenes than just...oh look...it's smaller! That only has a little bit to do with it honestly.

Which is why you will never break a $5,000 billet crank. :thumb:

On that note, do they temper the rods the same as cranks? I read an article that showed how a factory cast crank is tempered. They simple put it in a small container and shoot high frequency sound waves to it. They say it only hardens the surface up to .030" I think.

Reaper1
10-28-2008, 05:14 PM
^^Are you sure it was sound waves? Usually cranks are plasma (ion) nitrided or gas nitrided. Either one required the part to be put in a container and heated in a nitrogen rich environment. These processes yeild a very hard and wear resistant "shell" on the part, but keep the internal toughness.

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-16-2008, 09:59 AM
is it ready , is it ready ???????:eyebrows:

turbo2point2
11-16-2008, 03:30 PM
is it ready , is it ready ???????

Should be. Looking to start it on Monday, work out any bugs during the week, and go racing Saturday. BTW, the weather looks like it will be on our side(crossing fingers).

Turbo3Iroc
11-16-2008, 09:18 PM
Excellent!

rx2mazda
11-17-2008, 06:16 PM
I'll be there, can't wait to see it run!

Dave
11-17-2008, 06:36 PM
^^Are you sure it was sound waves? Usually cranks are plasma (ion) nitrided or gas nitrided. Either one required the part to be put in a container and heated in a nitrogen rich environment. These processes yeild a very hard and wear resistant "shell" on the part, but keep the internal toughness.

Positive. There are several methods of tempering cranks. I'll photocopy the article I got. I think it's from SCAT.

Reaper1
11-18-2008, 06:26 PM
^^OK, I look forward to reading it.

Brian, good luck!! I can't wait to see what this monster does!

turbo2point2
11-20-2008, 08:51 PM
Well, it looks as if I will get to make my main goal for this year of getting down the track in the Shadow. Got her fired up this week, she sounds nice. A few small items left to tackle and we'll be good to go. Nothing like making a debut in 30 degree weather. :thumb:

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-20-2008, 08:57 PM
Well, it looks as if I will get to make my main goal for this year of getting down the track in the Shadow. Got her fired up this week, she sounds nice. A few small items left to tackle and we'll be good to go. Nothing like making a debut in 30 degree weather. :thumb:

Hell that makes going to Cecil worth it alone :hail:

BadAssPerformance
11-20-2008, 09:05 PM
Well, it looks as if I will get to make my main goal for this year of getting down the track in the Shadow. Got her fired up this week, she sounds nice. A few small items left to tackle and we'll be good to go. Nothing like making a debut in 30 degree weather. :thumb:

Cool deal! Good luck with traction, it was slippery our last trip out and it was warmer at 50°F!

cordes
11-20-2008, 09:09 PM
Good luck Brian. I'm glad you got the car back together.

neonkitten63
11-20-2008, 09:14 PM
Oh boy! I really cant wait for Saturday now!

mcsvt
11-20-2008, 09:33 PM
Can't wait to see you there Brian, let me know if you need anything.

tsiconquest88
11-24-2008, 11:15 AM
so whats the deal man? howd it go?????

turbo2point2
11-24-2008, 12:37 PM
Sorry, thought you might have caught it on the other thread. Copied from the other thread:

I wound up going to Atco today as did a few others. Not many cars showed up for t&t, around 40. I rolled in around 9:30, unloaded the car from the trailer and realized I had a frozen motor. When I flipped the water pump switch on, the fuse blew. So it took a bit of warming up to get the water flowing.

By the time I had the water moving and ready to run it was after 12 noon. I rolled into the lanes and up through the water box. Do a decent burnout to get the new slicks warm. Stage, and leave at about 4 psi, running on wastegate springs-12 psi, 1st run:

r/t... -.013 red,whoops
60'... 1.886
330... 4.866
1/8... 7.277
mph... 101.10
1000... 9.390
1/4... 11.201
mph... 123.91

Wow!! I was shocked. The car felt great, drove nice, and pulled hard. Head back to the pits to look things over. Forgot to datalog that run(doh!) I felt that the car had a 10 sec pass in it with a better short time. 2nd pass:

r/t... .319, wow I suck
60'... 1.663
330... 4.523
1/8... 6.897
mph... 102.06
1000'... 9.000
1/4... 10.803
mph... 125.13

Awesome!! I knew it had it in it. If I was able to cut a regular 60' she might have gone low .60 but I will save that for a later date. I did get a third and fourth pass, 3rd pass was a mirror image to the 2nd and for the final pass I tried to load it a bit harder only to spin and ran an 11.23.

I am very pleased with how the car turned out. Unfortunately, a few months behind schedule but I did reach my goal of getting the BSX down the track in '08. Thanks to everyone who helped today. Mike Marra, Ruthie, Gary, Justin Cronk, Kelly G, I needed the support!! I know some of those guys got some good video, so when I have a link I will post it.

ohiorob
11-24-2008, 01:00 PM
Glad to see you made down the track :thumb:. Hope to see the car at SDAC next year:nod:

t3rse
11-24-2008, 07:02 PM
10s at 12psi FTMFW

BadAssPerformance
11-24-2008, 07:10 PM
Nicely done Brian! :clap:

8valves
11-24-2008, 07:12 PM
Great stuff Brian! How did the car run previously at around 12 psi?

tsiconquest88
11-24-2008, 08:02 PM
wow very nice man, i talked to gary earlier today cus he said hewas there and was impressed by the car. Sounds like u hardly got on it, which is a good thing to do first off with fresh engine and feel things out like u did. Very impressive numbers for such low boost... kudos brotha!!!

turbo2point2
11-24-2008, 08:14 PM
Glad to see you made down the track . Hope to see the car at SDAC next year


I plan on attending SDAC and also bringing the car. It would be the first time bringing it to an SDAC event since 14.



Great stuff Brian! How did the car run previously at around 12 psi?

It has been a while since I have run that amount of boost. I recall running around 15 psi on the old setup to the tune of mid/low 11's. I'll have to look through some of my notes from years past to see if I have anything about that boost level/performance.

2.216VTurbo
11-24-2008, 09:35 PM
Great job Brian, as already pointed out 10's on 12PSI is astounding:hail: Hmm, wonder how it will trap with about 200 more HP:thumb:? I'll be looking forward to seeing you, Ileana, the little Slowe and the car at SDAC:)

cordes
11-25-2008, 11:35 AM
Very impressive. I am glad to see that your hard work has paid off.

Rampage16V
11-25-2008, 06:44 PM
Good to here you got it out this year Brian.

turbo2point2
11-26-2008, 07:30 AM
Thanks again everyone. I got the itch to go racing again, so I might be heading out Sat. to Cecil if the weather holds out. Looks like it would be that last chance for me to get the car out this season.

R/T
11-26-2008, 08:38 AM
Tear 'em up!!! :thumb:

cordes
11-26-2008, 09:29 AM
Thanks again everyone. I got the itch to go racing again, so I might be heading out Sat. to Cecil if the weather holds out. Looks like it would be that last chance for me to get the car out this season.

Good luck. I can't wait to hear how you do.

turbo2point2
11-26-2008, 06:59 PM
Video from last week. Thanks to Justin for loading it for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1ADj_txVx4

cordes
11-26-2008, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the video. That was pretty good quality.

BadAssPerformance
11-26-2008, 07:13 PM
Sweet video! :thumb:

t3rse
11-26-2008, 07:19 PM
That thing looks totally badass with the extended wheelbase and glass work. What size skinny are you running?

mcsvt
11-26-2008, 07:23 PM
Video turned out great, it was pretty windy up in the stands.

2.216VTurbo
11-26-2008, 08:05 PM
Nice:eyebrows: Was that Kelly's Daytona clicking off a 12.64@111 ? :clap:

Turbo3Iroc
11-27-2008, 01:05 AM
Thanks for the vid!

Yes that was my best run of the day Alan. For what ever reason they weren't running the left lane then they direct me over there for that pass. Remember its ~30 degrees and windy = no heat in the track. Still cut a 1.9 60' I think.

The last one against Brian I missed 3rd.

turbo2point2
11-27-2008, 09:50 AM
That thing looks totally badass with the extended wheelbase and glass work. What size skinny are you running?


Thanks for the kind words. The rear tires are 24.5x4.5x15 Mickey Thompson ET fronts.

tsiconquest88
11-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Hey out of curiosity what saturday are u going to the track again if weather permits?, this comming? or the following? I am thinking of maybe goin out there and seein the car in action lol. I am only a 3-4 hr drive from cecil so i figure hey if ur goin next sat i wont be workin lol

Turbo3Iroc
11-27-2008, 07:54 PM
You can hear the announcer talking about his car in one of the runs but he was stuck on it every pass he made. He kept calling it a Plymouth, doesn't he know it is the BSX?

Reaper1
11-28-2008, 03:31 AM
Very nice passes for sure! You certainly make it seem a lot easier than I know it really is! Congrats! I hope I an make it to SDAC again this year so I can see it in person. It really depends on finances and school....

turbo2point2
11-28-2008, 07:26 AM
Hey out of curiosity what saturday are u going to the track again if weather permits?

This coming Sat. the 29th. Looks like we should have a pretty decent day:thumb:


Very nice passes for sure! You certainly make it seem a lot easier than I know it really is! Congrats! I hope I an make it to SDAC again this year so I can see it in person. It really depends on finances and school....

Thanks! I am already working out the specifics with going to SDAC:D

tsiconquest88
11-28-2008, 04:54 PM
damn i was hopin next sat lol, im workin tomorrow till 3:30 tomorrow. Ah no biggy there will be plenty more times im sure lol

turbo2point2
11-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Had a pretty good day at Cecil. The weather was beautiful and track conditions weren't far behind. I pulled into the the lanes around 10am. Car felt nice during the burnout, I launched the car soft to see what the track was like:

r/t- .327
60'- 2.037
330- 5.429
1/8- 8.029
mph- 96.11
1000- 10.23
1/4- 12.10
mph- 121.51

Hit the rev limiter on the 1-2 shift and the car was way rich. Boost was 9psi. Head back to the pits, do a once over and load the cal from last week. I made some changes during the week to the fuel tables since the computer was subtracting a good bit. Made another 3 passes on 12 psi while making small fuel changes in between passes. Last pass on 12 psi:

r/t- .034
60'- 1.761
330- 4.775
1/8- 7.151
mph- 103.95
1000- 9.214
1/4- 10.971
mph- 128.21

Nice! the car picked up 3 mph from last week with dialing in the fuel table.
Ok, now it was time to add some boost. I made 3 more passes, the last pass I had the boost set to 17 psi:

r/t- .427
60'- 1.658
330- 4.496
1/8- 6.750
mph- 109.32
1000- 8.711
1/4- 10.379
mph- 134.67

Sweet, 3 mph shy of my previous boost with 10 psi less boost. I looked over the data from that run. The boost ranged from 16.9- 17.5 over the course of the run. The computer was subtracting 11% fuel to maintain 9.8-9.9 AFR, way richer than my target of 10.9:1. Intake temps at the start of the run were 82* at the top end they were 72.5*

I learned a bunch just having the car out the past 2 weeks. Most importantly, I need to leave much harder. The car feels like it would handle a bunch more boost on launch. I wanted to try and leave on the 2 step, but I ran out of fuel and so did the track, oh well theres always next year...

Thanks again to everyone for their support and the help at the track. Mike Marra, Joe Marra, Dave Skrab, Ruthie, Steve Menegon, you guys rock!! Thanks for reading this extended post!

"Top Fuel" Bender
11-30-2008, 12:39 PM
freakin sweet
good to hear things are going smoother now
wish I could've gone yesterday
sure we'll see plenty of the BSX next year

Directconnection
11-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Cool runs for 17psi!

I bet 20psi could get you that 137mph and then some (along with a 9 second pass)

Wish we had more season to hear more of your success on the track!

Pat
11-30-2008, 02:23 PM
I passed Cecil yesterday on my way home from NY at about 1:00...if the kids weren't already loosing it from being in the van so long, we would have stopped. I can't wait to see this beast in person.

Great job Brian!

cordes
11-30-2008, 05:20 PM
Congrats again Brian. That is really moving out. I can't wait to see what it does next year!

BadAssPerformance
11-30-2008, 06:37 PM
Kickass Brian! :thumb:

2.216VTurbo
11-30-2008, 10:15 PM
109 in the 1/8th:hail:

turboshad
12-01-2008, 01:56 AM
Absolutely amazing.:clap:

I'm going to be happy if I can get into the mid 11s using 25 psi next year. I can't believe what you did on 12 and then 17. Definately gives me something to aspire to. Can't say enough about your build.........wow!!


DJ

mcsvt
12-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Great to hear Brian, wish I could have been there. :thumb: