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View Full Version : 1991 High Torque 5spd ECM on a 413 auto



Gearjamer
02-28-2008, 02:23 AM
Hey guys,

I've gotten a hold of a ECM out of a '91 Daytona CS 5spd car. I'm finishing putting together my 90 Daytona ES that has a T1/413 in it. Can I just plug in the '91 High torque ECM and run it? I know the 413 isn't suppost to handle the power but I don't care. I've got 3 of these 413's sitting in my shop. All from T1 cars. The ECM dosen't control the trans right? The only plug goint to the trans is the back up light and neutral start switch. The shift is controled by the modulator cable. But are all the pin outs the same for the ECM plug? I've got 3 T1/Auto ECM's and the one '91 T1/5spd High Torque. So I was going to socket one and try my own custom tune. But this one would be cool for the interum.

Dodge Aries K
02-28-2008, 02:58 AM
If I recall right the high torque 2.5 turbo was ONLY with the automatic and the 5 speed cars was still the regular 150 HP and 180 lb ft of torque.

Someone else will know better than me I'm sure.

John B
02-28-2008, 03:50 AM
It'll work fine; no worries.

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 08:18 AM
If I recall right the high torque 2.5 turbo was ONLY with the automatic and the 5 speed cars was still the regular 150 HP and 180 lb ft of torque.

Someone else will know better than me I'm sure.

Strike that, reverse it....

5 speed cars only.

Automatic tranny if it's healthy can handle a lot more than the high torque ECU. Regular T1's auto's limit boost to 7 PSI until 4000 RPM and then 9 PSI. The high torque gives I think ~11 PSI, sooner in the RPM band giving it the higher torque. Thats really the only difference, you'd be better off just running a manual boost controller set to ~13 PSI. You'll have boost sooner and a lot more power pretty much throughout the whole RPM band. Most auto's can handle 13 PSI.

Gearjamer
02-28-2008, 09:58 AM
I wasn't going to run a manual boost controller because I didn't think it would work out the fuel and spark as well. I've got the controller. 15 min and it's in. I'll mess with the trick tuning when I socket one of the other controllers. Besides the wife and dear old mom might be using the car from time to time. So I want simplified operation for them.

Murphy
02-28-2008, 01:11 PM
up till 14.7 you can run whatever boost an you'll be fine, just slap a g-vavle in on your stock cal and set it to 14 psi and you'll be good

badandy
02-28-2008, 02:18 PM
If I recall right the high torque 2.5 turbo was ONLY with the automatic and the 5 speed cars was still the regular 150 HP and 180 lb ft of torque.

Someone else will know better than me I'm sure.
True...

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/22.html

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 02:31 PM
I've found MANY things wrong with allpars facts, find another source because I'm pretty darn certain that the high torque didn't come with the automatics because the tranny's can't handle it. It doesn't even make sense to put the high torque in the automatics anyway, it's the reason they got the 568 tranny's and not even the 523 (although we know the 523 can handle pretty high HP).

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Allpar is wrong, 5 speed only-
http://www.moparautos.com/daytona89-91.htm
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f21/141259-re-210-ft-lbs-torque-170-a.html

This one from your favorite wikipedia, an answer clearly states the high torque had the 568-
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_put_a_1991_dodge_spirit_turbo_engine_in_a_ 1993_dodge_spirit_without_having_to_do_major_work

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 02:48 PM
How about the person that just found one in a junkyard recently?
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22836

Is that enough yet?

Dodge Aries K
02-28-2008, 03:20 PM
The high torque was with the automatic because they also put lockup torque converters in for that year (91-92) as well.

badandy
02-28-2008, 03:22 PM
How about the person that just found one in a junkyard recently?
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22836

Is that enough yet?

Is that enough yet? :lol: if I say no will you post more links?:clap: j/k ;)

I have no solid proof other than what i was told by Gary Donovan and what I have previously read on Allpar. If you say Allpar is not factual than I will have to dig a little deeper for the correct answer.

I could have sworn my old 1991 Daytona Shelby was in fact a "high torque" 2.5 T1 but that was what I was told and I have no proof of that. To be honest most of the links you supplied quoted the 568 transmission as being "high torque"...which it was indeed due to it's power handling capability...but none of those links said anything about the computer being "high torque" as they are two different things...which I think is where the confusion is.

I know Gary told me he wanted my old stock and MP computers because they were the "high torque" code. Maybe he was wrong?...therefor maybe myself and Allpar are wrong/ Like I said I have no proof but I will search later when I have some time for the facts.

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 03:23 PM
Whats does the lockup converter have to do with the high torque 2.5? Did you not read the 4 links I posted? The auto tranny was not rated for that high of torque which is why only the 5 speed was used.

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Read the first link I posted, in the chart near the bottom it clearly states high torque 2.5 and for auto trans it reads N/A.
Second link I posted to turbo dodge will several people claim the HT 2.5 came with a manual trans.
third link, yeah thats questionable about ''high torque'', but whatever what about the 3 other links I posted?
Last link, the guy actually found the car in the junkyard with the T1/568 combo. The T1 only got the 568 if it was the high torque version.
The automatic trans for cars was NEVER rated for more than 200 ft/lbs (not even that I think, 190?) therefore was never put with the high torque 2.5.

badandy
02-28-2008, 06:47 PM
Read the first link I posted, in the chart near the bottom it clearly states high torque 2.5 and for auto trans it reads N/A.
Second link I posted to turbo dodge will several people claim the HT 2.5 came with a manual trans.
third link, yeah thats questionable about ''high torque'', but whatever what about the 3 other links I posted?
Last link, the guy actually found the car in the junkyard with the T1/568 combo. The T1 only got the 568 if it was the high torque version.
The automatic trans for cars was NEVER rated for more than 200 ft/lbs (not even that I think, 190?) therefore was never put with the high torque 2.5.

I think you are right and it only makes sense...but I too understood that the high torque boost schedule along with the lock up converter went hand in hand. Saying one web site is right and one web site is wrong really makes things a wash IMO and just like this thread shows there is confusion among us all.

badandy
02-28-2008, 07:17 PM
It looks like we have allot of wrong web sites if what you say is true:

http://www.shelbycsx.com/history.2.2L.shtml

I'm seeing allot of web sites saying that the "High Torque" 2.5 Turbo 1 engine was standard in all Daytona Shelby's.

I bet Rob knows as he does allot of calibration work...and it's in the code of the SBEC so that should settle the question.

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 07:24 PM
It looks like we have allot of wrong web sites if what you say is true:

http://www.shelbycsx.com/history.2.2L.shtml


That site is copied directly from allpar, your first misinformed site you linked to ;)

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 07:24 PM
I bet Rob knows as he does allot of calibration work...and it's in the code of the SBEC so that should settle the question.


Read the turbo dodge link I posted! Shel-game (rob) posted in it saying the HT 2.5 is a 5 speed!

Edit-
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f21/141259-re-210-ft-lbs-torque-170-a.html

If you put a hi-torq computer into an auto car, you get 210ft-lbs

badandy
02-28-2008, 07:35 PM
Read the turbo dodge link I posted! Shel-game (rob) posted in it saying the HT 2.5 is a 5 speed!

Edit-
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f21/141259-re-210-ft-lbs-torque-170-a.html

If you put a hi-torq computer into an auto car, you get 210ft-lbs
Now that makes sense and is factual! Good Job:thumb: I wonder how everyone else got so confused?

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 08:08 PM
You didn't read all the links I posted way back 10 posts ago?

badandy
02-28-2008, 08:43 PM
You didn't read all the links I posted way back 10 posts ago?
Yes I did and I gave them the same respect you gave mine in another thread ;)

moparzrule
02-28-2008, 08:45 PM
All I did was repeat the link to turbo dodge in which shel-game posted, it's been there since post number 9 of this thread.
I gave all links that pertain to turbo dodges only, your link in the other thread was a very general link not pertaining to any car in particular.

Turbodave
02-29-2008, 03:33 AM
I had always thought the high torque cal was on the stick cars, but now I'm beginning to question that. In the thread Matt linked to on TD there was a poster who mentioned that his 92 TI auto car showed 210lb/ft on the window sticker.

Recently in reviewing some 91 sales videos they also state that the auto cars got the high torque calibration. Maybe Chrysler marketing was confused as to which cars they put it in...

Logic still tells me the 568 cars would have it, but I'll have to research a little more to see if I can prove that.

John B
02-29-2008, 03:58 AM
Recently in reviewing some 91 sales videos they also state that the auto cars got the high torque calibration. Maybe Chrysler marketing was confused as to which cars they put it in...


I bought my '91 new and it was advertised as having the hi-torque engine. In any case a 413 can easily handle the torque.

moparzrule
02-29-2008, 07:36 AM
In any case a 413 can easily handle the torque.

We know it can, but it was not rated for that from the factory.
The stock T2 engine was 210 ftlbs also, it's the reason it never received the automatic.

badandy
02-29-2008, 09:31 AM
I had always thought the high torque cal was on the stick cars, but now I'm beginning to question that. In the thread Matt linked to on TD there was a poster who mentioned that his 92 TI auto car showed 210lb/ft on the window sticker.

Recently in reviewing some 91 sales videos they also state that the auto cars got the high torque calibration. Maybe Chrysler marketing was confused as to which cars they put it in...

Logic still tells me the 568 cars would have it, but I'll have to research a little more to see if I can prove that.
That's just it Dave. I see some literature that says auto only and then I see some that says manual only...and then I see some that says all 2.5 T1's were high torque. I'm like you with the logic...but I had mixed thoughts based off what others I respected had told me in the past and had never researched it for myself. let us know what you find out:thumb:

P.S. Thanks again for the help with the K-frame:hail:

badandy
02-29-2008, 10:08 AM
All I did was repeat the link to turbo dodge in which shel-game posted, it's been there since post number 9 of this thread.
I gave all links that pertain to turbo dodges only, your link in the other thread was a very general link not pertaining to any car in particular.
Okay, so? :confused: I admitted you were right about this subject and you still want to have a debate? I agree 100% that misinformation on here is not good...hence why I doubted things. I never argued with half witted comments or conjecture. All I wanted was a straight answer from a trusted knowledgeable source.

jonnyb
03-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Well, being that I have started collecting quite a few factory brochures lately, I took a look at them. It seems that Chrysler did something weird (imagine that) with their high torque motors and wasn't consistent about it (imagine that too...LOL).

In the 91-92 daytona brochures, they list the output for both auto and manual as 152 hp and 210 tq and refer to it as high torque motor.

In the 91-92 shadow and spirit brochures, they list the auto as high torque (211 tq) and the 5 speed as standard 2.5 turbo motor (185 tq).

I couldn't find it, but I seem to recall seeing a 90 daytona brochure with the auto having the 185 tq motor and the 5 speed having the 210 tq motor.

badandy
03-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Well, being that I have started collecting quite a few factory brochures lately, I took a look at them. It seems that Chrysler did something weird (imagine that) with their high torque motors and wasn't consistent about it (imagine that too...LOL).

In the 91-92 daytona brochures, they list the output for both auto and manual as 152 hp and 210 tq and refer to it as high torque motor.

In the 91-92 shadow and spirit brochures, they list the auto as high torque (211 tq) and the 5 speed as standard 2.5 turbo motor (185 tq).

I couldn't find it, but I seem to recall seeing a 90 daytona brochure with the auto having the 185 tq motor and the 5 speed having the 210 tq motor.

...and the controversy continues...lol.

moparzrule
03-07-2008, 05:26 PM
Honestly, Chrysler did whatever the hell they wanted too usually, mix and match....leftover parts used the next year for a little bit, ETC.
But it still doesn't make sense because the A413 was not rated for more than 200 ftlbs which is why the T2 engine was never offered with it. The HT 2.5 and the 2.2 T2 have the same torque, 210 ftlbs.

Xtrempickup
03-07-2008, 05:28 PM
i was pretty certain High torque was 5spd only

Captain Chaos
03-07-2008, 05:56 PM
I like lamp.

moparzrule
03-07-2008, 05:57 PM
I like lamp.

:confused2:

jonnyb
03-07-2008, 07:03 PM
Honestly, Chrysler did whatever the hell they wanted too usually, mix and match....leftover parts used the next year for a little bit, ETC.
But it still doesn't make sense because the A413 was not rated for more than 200 ftlbs which is why the T2 engine was never offered with it. The HT 2.5 and the 2.2 T2 have the same torque, 210 ftlbs.

Yes, but the T2's all came with the a555 to handle the 200 ft/lbs. The T1's with the lower torque got a520's. I bring this up because the same type of thing holds true for the 91-92 vintage cars. The cars with a523's are the lower 180 (spirit) and 185 (shadow) torque rated cals, and like you said earlier in this thread, the daytona got the a568 and it also got the 210 torque cal.

All 91 and 92 brochure's show the 210 ft/lbs. ratings for daytona's and spirit's with the auto and 211 ft/lbs. for the shadow with the auto. I don't think the chart that you mentioned in the first link you posted makes sense. It shows the 2.5 T1 (non high-torque) as N/A for 91, but that's the only turbo motor listed that allowed an auto. Were there no auto T1 daytona's made in 91?

I would put more faith in the factory brochure's that I'm looking at. I think that Karl was onto something with the lock-up torque converter. The 91 brochure I have mentions an upgraded torque converter, so maybe the lock-up allowed Chrysler to use the higher torque rated cals with the auto tranny in 91 and 92.

With all that being said, I feel bad that we've cluttered up this thread on the original poster, so I'd like to at least give him my .02 on using the 5spd cal with an auto.

As other people have said, you can use the 5 spd with your auto, but there are things in the auto cal for stuff like idle adjustments between being in park and stopped while in gear that aren't in the 5 spd cal. You may find yourself really standing on the brakes when you're at stop lights - and it seems to be intensified in some cals when the engine is cold.

Jon

Gearjamer
05-10-2008, 02:59 AM
High torque ECM in and working great!. However, I think I need an external trans cooler. I noticed that after the car is good and warmed up that the car feels sluggish on launch. It will also go to full boost @ 11ish psi then drop back down to 7-8psi. My temp gauge will also spike but I think that's due to a radiator issue. On a good launch it will smoke the tires though. Never did that before!

moparzrule
05-10-2008, 06:41 AM
Fix that other stuff, and just run a manual boost controller at 12-13 PSI. If you think your car has power now, wait until you put the boost controller on!!! It's like night and day.

CSXT802
05-10-2008, 08:10 AM
Fix that other stuff, and just run a manual boost controller at 12-13 PSI. If you think your car has power now, wait until you put the boost controller on!!! It's like night and day.

+1 for the manual boost controller.

ShelGame
05-14-2008, 08:52 AM
STD ECU + MBC = HT ECU + MBC - The only difference in the HT cal is the boost schedule.

FWIW, The HT .bin file I have is MTX. I've never seen an ATX HT cal. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. But, all the ATX cals I've seen have lower boost than the HT cal.