Intermediate Axle Shaft Replacement?

[Swart]

1990 Dodge Shadow, 2.5L turbo...
Does anyone know if the minivan or other application intermediate shaft axle
will interchange?

The bearing and axle are NS1 from the dealer for my application, and the bearing numbers that I have, SKF 1639207B (which interchanges to HB88521) I can't seem to locate anywhere.


Any help is appreciated!!!
:)

[tryingbe]

Easy thing to do is to get the longer unequal length axles and bolt it on.

[badandy]

Easy thing to do is to get the longer unequal length axles and bolt it on.

I 100% agree. You will thank yourself if you ever get to see pics of the carnage caused by a intermediate shaft failure:amen:

[Turbodave]

As mentioned above the longer passenger axle from an automatic Turbo car or any TBI Shadow will work fine.

If you want to stick with the equal length axles, the intermediate shaft should interchange with any 87 and newer K-based turbo car.

Minivans have a longer intermediate shaft, and L-body's are shorter (and the wrong splines) so stay away from those.

[Swart]

Thanks for the replies...

Any noticeable increase in torque steer due to the unequal length setup?
That's mainly why I am reluctant to use it...

This is going to be a very high HP/tq car.
I have pics I can post perhaps when I get home.
I've been working on it awhile now :)

[moparzrule]

There less torque steer with the unequal setup. Chrysler used equal length for marketing reasons, it sounds good.
But a U-joint transfers power FAR less efficiently than just a longer axle ever would.
BTW, all of my cars one of the first mods is to trash the int shaft and go unequal. Got mine for my shadow out of a TBI sundance, putting 350 WHP to it.

[Swart]

There less torque steer with the unequal setup. Chrysler used equal length for marketing reasons, it sounds good.
But a U-joint transfers power FAR less efficiently than just a longer axle ever would.
BTW, all of my cars one of the first mods is to trash the int shaft and go unequal. Got mine for my shadow out of a TBI sundance, putting 350 WHP to it.

Simple physics would lead me to disagree with the fact that if you apply the same amount of torque to a longer arm vs. a shorter one that the longer one will be biased somewhat more... Agree with the u-joint bit.

I guess I'm just surprised to see that the unequal length axle seems to be the better choice now :confused2: .. of course, my options are limited, not being able to locate a bearing either, so...

Good to know that you're throwing down some big #'s with it too, so I may end up going with that.

I appreciate the info guys, if you have any more opinions on equal vs. unequal, please, chime in!!
Thanks

[moparzrule]

Simple physics would lead me to disagree with the fact that if you apply the same amount of torque to a longer arm vs. a shorter one that the longer one will be biased somewhat more... Agree with the u-joint bit.



You aren't applying the same amount of torque to the passenger side BECAUSE of the intermediate shaft drivetrain losses. U-joints are known to be very inefficient in transfer of power, and they are also the weak link in the axle system at high HP levels.
There's a reason that aftermarket replacement axles (built to stronger than stock specs) only come in unequal length.

[Speedeuphoria]

Go with the unequal hands down. Less failure points (including people that have riped the back of the block mounting points off) and less or equal torque steer

[tryingbe]

Did somebody say broke parts?

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/156980-bits-halfshaft-2.html

[turbovanman²]

You can't use Minivan axles in a car as there aprox one inch longer, and so is the jack shaft. Also, the OEM bearing is NLA but someone found a replacement but no one has tried it and I can't find the link anymore.

I have driven both setups back to back, and I find the equal length has less torque steer and I have poly everything. :confused:

One thing to help reduce ts, is to run poly mounts and suspension bushings, :nod:

[moparzrule]

I have driven both setups back to back, and I find the equal length has less torque steer and I have poly everything. :confused:



Must be something about minivans then, because all the cars I've had the unequal has less torque steer not to mention everybody I've talked too and everybody posted in this thread has had the same experience LOL.

[badandy]

Simple physics would lead me to disagree with the fact that if you apply the same amount of torque to a longer arm vs. a shorter one that the longer one will be biased somewhat more... Agree with the u-joint bit.

I guess I'm just surprised to see that the unequal length axle seems to be the better choice now :confused2: .. of course, my options are limited, not being able to locate a bearing either, so...

Good to know that you're throwing down some big #'s with it too, so I may end up going with that.

I appreciate the info guys, if you have any more opinions on equal vs. unequal, please, chime in!!
Thanks

I'm sure the equal length setup did a better job with reducing torque steer or else Chrysler would not have engineered it...but at the power levels we seek no matter how you design it there will be torque steer...so equal length benefits are nil and it becomes a week spot in the driveline.

True, u-joints are not efficient, but the design of the intermediate shaft lends itself to minimal to no u-joint articulation. It's a straight shot from the tranny output to the carrier bearing. It is when there are angles involved that u-joints become inefficient. In our case the u-joint only operates in a radial fashion on a straight axis so there would be no loss. The failures happen due to weakness. I can't remember who at the moment...but someone on this board completely did away with the u-joint successfully.

As far as the physics go:

The "long" axle was designed in such a way that through tubing diameter and wall thickness the axle mimics (as much as possible) the "short" axle in twist...or winding up if you will. If I remember correctly Volkswagon was the first company to reduce torque steer by utilizing this method...it works...and it works well while continuing to be strong.

[looneytuner]

One replacement bearing is...................................
.................................................. ........................

BTW the way to FIND a replacement bearing is measure the inny and outy and thickness and go to a bearing wholesaler.

............................
............................


Jaf 630080-2rs
c-3

It is a radial bearing.

[slasky]

I run unequal on mine. It has more torque steer on it than it did with the equal however it has a lot more HP and torque due to upgrades than before. I agree with everyone that you really want the unequal for high HP so you don't end up with carnage.
You get used to the torque steer anyway. Now I just instinctively turn the steering wheel as I push the gas pedal down.

[moparzrule]

If you have torque steer something is wrong with your setup, engine not centered or sagging mounts. That or you don't know what torque steer is.

[moparzrule]

I'm sure the equal length setup did a better job with reducing torque steer or else Chrysler would not have engineered it...


I already stated, for marketing reasons. It's a selling point because it sounds good.

[turbovanman²]

I already stated, for marketing reasons. It's a selling point because it sounds good.

Its not a selling point. High end cars use them, imports have been using them for years to eliminate it.

Turbo Sunbirds also use them, the turbo comes on violently on these cars and the 5 speeds have equal length-they still torque steer but not as badly as the auto cars, which use unequal axles. Still can't figure out why GM did that? :confused:

Test for yourself back to back, I bet you'll be suprised, I was, ;)

There is a slight angle at the u-joint but that could easily be elimated with slotting the bracket. I think Dodge used it for ease of assembly-IE LAZY, lol.
I might have my friend help me eliminate the U-joint and run a solid jack shaft. Another benefit to this setup is you only need to carry one size axle with you to the drag strip, not 1 or 2 of each length, :mad:

[badandy]

If you have torque steer something is wrong with your setup, engine not centered or sagging mounts. That or you don't know what torque steer is.

Not completely true at all. A car that is setup appropriatly CAN indeed still have torque steer...and I do indeed know what torque steer is...but for those that may not here is the definition and primary causes.

Torque steering
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Torque steering is the influence of the engine torque on the steering for some front-wheel drive vehicles. For example, during full acceleration the steering may pull to one side, which may be disturbing to the driver. This either causes a tugging sensation in the steering wheel, or else the car veers from the intended path. As the Torque Steer Effect is directly related to the engine torque capabilities this problem becomes more and more evident with high output engines with strong low rpm range torque.
Torque steering may be confused with steering kickback.


[edit] Causes
Root causes for Torque Steer are:[1]

Incorrect sidewall ply design allowing deformation of the tire sidewall.[2]
Nonsymmetric driveshaft angles, e.g. due to
Nonsymmetric design of the vehicle, e.g. different driveshaft length
Transient movement of the engine
Tolerances in engine mounts
Different driveshaft torques left to right
Suspension geometry tolerances
Unequal traction forces due to road surface (µ-Split) in combination with Kingpin Offset
Open differentials may not equally distribute the torque between the two driveshafts, due to friction in the side gears etc. The same will be seen if a limited slip differential is used. Either way there is a tendency for the slower wheel to receive more torque.

[edit] Ways to reduce the effect of torque steer
Employ the use of a tire with proper sidewall ply design, mitigating the sidewall deformation.
Have both driveshafts of the equal length by using an intermediate shaft (or "lay shaft") on one side of the transmission. This is already implemented on most modern cars.[3] When the driveshafts have different length and excessive torque is applied, the longer half shaft flexes more than the shorter one, thus causing one wheel to momentarily spin more slowly than the other, resulting in a steering effect. So the equal length of the driveshafts reduce the torque steer effect. Implement double wishbone suspension[4][5] or multi-link suspension.[6]
Distribute the torque better between the driveshafts. Automobile transmission manufacturers like Quaife, Torsen, TrueTrac, Gold Trac offer worm-gear-based torque-biasing limited slip differentials for front-wheel drive vehicles, which help to reduce the amount of torque steer[7][8] and improve cornering.
Reduce the amount torque from the front axle by passing part of torque to the rear axle. This is achieved on all-wheel-drive (AWD) vehicles with full-time AWD, e.g. with mechanical gear-based transaxle differential.
Power assisted steering (set on most modern cars) make the torque steer effect less noticeable to the driver. Steer-by-wire[9] also hides the effect of torque steer from the driver.
Note that rear-wheel-drive vehicles do not suffer from the torque steer, since the engine is not connected to the steering gear unless it has all wheel steering.

[moparzrule]

Test for yourself back to back, I bet you'll be suprised, I was


;)
Done it twice, and have friends that have done it too. ALL of us have notably less torque steer if at all. My daytona had NO torque steer at all going in a straight line, 300 WHP car. I have some torque steer in my shadow, but I never got around to centering the engine as I never took out the drivers side axle at all I just guessed based on what the passenger side axle movement was.

[moparzrule]

Not completely true at all. A car that is setup appropriatly CAN indeed still have torque steer...


*sigh*
I've done it twice, and the majority of people that have posted in this thread are running unequal setups. Argue with that.

[badandy]

*sigh*
I've done it twice, and the majority of people that have posted in this thread are running unequal setups. Argue with that.

Argue? there is not arguing...at least not on my side...just the facts sir. I said what you said wasn't completely true...and I backed it up with fact to prove it.

[moparzrule]

Fact? Whats more of a fact, many people doing it and seeing real results or what you found written down on a website? Please.

[MiniMopar]

Once I spent the time to get the K-frame-to-body and engine-to-K-frame geometry setup, I had no real problems with torque steer on the Daytona. It had the unequal length setup and the stock T1 at the time. I think the key from an alignment perspective, besides making sure the drivetrain drive line is parallel with the K-frame drive line, is to make sure it STAYS that way. Under load the drivetrain pivots back on the side mounts. The axis of that pivot is not parallel to the drive line. So the more the drivetrain pivots back, the more its drive line is not parallel to the K-frame drive line (assuming it was parallel to begin with).

At least that is how I visualize it. Being a CV joint, the only way the torque can become unequal given the same input torque is due to frictional losses in the joint itself. These should be relatively negligible. Instead, what I think is actually happening is a weird interaction with the open diff once torque starts to become unequal (turning, road conditions, etc). Later, when I swapped in the new power train with a Quaife, I have no torque steer problems at all even at much higher performance levels than before. I actually thought it might get worse, but it didn't.

[badandy]

Fact? Whats more of a fact, many people doing it and seeing real results or what you found written down on a website? Please.
If you can dispute and prove that website wrong than I would gladly like to hear your explaination.

People do the swap for durability...not to solve torque steer. If you don't think this is true make a poll and let's get the answer. I'll make a friendly wager;)

[Swart]

The trans. has an OBX in it as well.... how do you suppose it will react with torque steer equal vs. unequal?

[moparzrule]

If you can dispute and prove that website wrong than I would gladly like to hear your explaination.

People do the swap for durability...not to solve torque steer. If you don't think this is true make a poll and let's get the answer. I'll make a friendly wager;)

You make the poll, I don't really care because I've done it MYSELF twice and both times had less torque steer than equal length.
Have YOU tried it? I'll make a friendly wager probably not.

[badandy]

You make the poll, I don't really care because I've done it MYSELF twice and both times had less torque steer than equal length.
Have YOU tried it? I'll make a friendly wager probably not.

Yes, I've tried it many times;) But I won't bore you with my experiences with these cars.

I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree...I understand what your results have been and have not once disputed your results on your own car...I have said that mine and others differ. I'm telling you that not everyone has the same results...and just because someone elses results doesn't match yours doesn't mean their car is not setup right or they don't know what torque steer is.

Sometimes your experiences yeild good results for you...but they are not always true or accurate for the masses. This being a car forum people come here for answers...and you have to look at both sides of the coin before calling it in the air.

I agree to disagree :thumb:

[moparzrule]

The problem is the ''masses'' are not properly informed. I'm not going by my experiences alone. I've had more people agree with me than disagree. The people that don't agree *usually* haven't tried it and/or don't have their cars setup properly with the engine centered and proper mounts.

[badandy]

The trans. has an OBX in it as well.... how do you suppose it will react with torque steer equal vs. unequal?

I apologize I completely missed this...

The limited slip diff will dramatically reduce torque steer and would produce much greater benefits than equal length axles could possibly provide. I do not believe that one axle layout would produce greater benefits than another in combination with a OBX.

[turbovanman²]

I apologize I completely missed this...

The limited slip diff will dramatically reduce torque steer and would produce much greater benefits than equal length axles could possibly provide. I do not believe that one axle layout would produce greater benefits than another in combination with a OBX.

Yeah, the OBX rocks except I found with snow tires, in boost, it wants to wander big time!!!!!! :confused:

[Swart]

Thank you all for your help and information!!