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View Full Version : GTS is experiencing....technical difficulties. :(



Subliminal
02-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Hey guys,

So I drove my car home for lunch today, and she drove fine. Parked it, got outhad lunch, got back in, started it, and she started all lopey like. Like it was very out of tune. Anyway, I drive about a mile from my house, and then turn around and bring it back home and park it again.

It's very slow to rev and, like i said, it acts lopey like it's out of tune. Not quite like it's missing, but maybe. It even shut down on me one time, which felt like overboost shut down, but couldn't have been. I think the LM I'm using (GLHS Stage 2) has a 10 second delay for shutdown, and I hadn't had the gas down for more than 2 or 3 seconds at the time.

Any ideas of what could be wrong?

I looked under the hood for a detacthed vac line, pulled the intake tube off the turbo and stuck a finger in there to feel for looseness, checked all the wires I could see, and then jumped in the truck and came back to work.

I figure when I get home I'll pull the plugs and maybe give it a quick compression test. Hope I didn't kill a piston...that would be more work than I really want to do in my driveway this weekend. Head gasket wouldn't be too bad, but it didn't seem to be smoking any more than usual. ;)

The S is Silent
02-23-2006, 03:39 PM
Timing belt jump a tooth? Check your cam timing and ignition timing before anything. I don't know why they would all of a sudden jump out of whack, but I'm going to suggest this as a starting point.

Subliminal
02-23-2006, 03:41 PM
Roger that. Will add that to the list.

The list of things to check so far includes:

Plugs
Compression
Timing

It does feel like it's out of time, but I don't know how it would have gotten there. Stupid gremlins..!

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2006, 09:48 PM
I bet the belt did jump, if it was loose, the sudden tension of stopping and starting could have let it jump.

Subliminal
02-23-2006, 09:52 PM
Nope, belt is nice and tight, and the plugs looked fine, and the compression was where it has been (between 95 and 110).

Not saying that's not crappy compression...lol..but it certainly isn't anything different than it was yesterday.

I also changed out the HEP and that made no difference. I feel like it isn't getting enough gas.

It also has an old school 1 wire o2 sensor. I'm thinking that it could be that or it could be the fuel filter...but i believe the filter at least to be semi new.

Man. Silly car, tricks are for kids.

cordes
02-23-2006, 11:47 PM
No codes?

Subliminal
02-24-2006, 09:30 AM
Haven't had a chance to check that yet. Lunch time, I'll check...

I get home at 4:30, I pop the hood, check a few things, the wife comes out and we argue over getting a new dog for 45 minutes. Now the light is fading and I have to run up the road to my cousin's house to borrow a compression checker. Talk for a few minutes about the rims he's polishing, look out the window and see it's darker than when i got there, so i run home. Get home, check 3 cylinders, and my neighbor comes over to BS. While we're talking, I check that last cylinder, then it's dark.

sigh...poor GTS. Now I'm back in the lightning gettting 13 mpg again...;)

The S is Silent
02-24-2006, 11:18 AM
My horizon did this when I was in Illinois. I cruised into Joliet to go to the bestbuy there. On the way home, I was flooring it to maintain 65 mph on the highway. The car was absolutely gutless. I had no idea what was wrong...timing belt looked good to me. I couldn't figure it out, so I had a mechanic take a look at it.

It eneded up being the timing belt and jumped a tooth on the cam sprocket. Line up the marks and see if it's off.

How's the compression test look?

Subliminal
02-24-2006, 11:32 AM
The timing looked good. I checked that.

The compression was kind of shitty, averaging 100 across the 4 cylinders...but it's been that way since I bought the car. That can't (I assume) account for the change yesterday.

It does feel like a car with the timing jacked up, though...

ludwig340
02-24-2006, 12:48 PM
Did you check the logic module connectors when you were having trouble before (right after you bought it)? Check them, clean if necessary, plug/unplug...check all your grounds...do you have an A/F gauge on it?

Subliminal
02-24-2006, 03:10 PM
No A/F. Haven't check the LM connectors. I will check those this weekend.

I didn't go home at lunch, I went and bought a dog. Sigh. Women...

Anyway, I don't have an A/F or a boost gauge on the car. i run what I brung, baby...

ludwig340
02-24-2006, 04:19 PM
Well, hard to say, but sounds like O2 is a definite possibility. Good luck with it. Scrub those connectors well w/ contact cleaner if they don't look nice and clean - I had bad ones on both my H's (that both caused problems!).

Subliminal
02-24-2006, 07:39 PM
Cool. Will do!

I bought my wife a puppy, so no work tonight...and it's supposed to be REALLY cold outside this weekend...oh well, soon.

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 10:32 AM
Well, I changed out the fuel rail and injectors/rail harness/regulator. No luck

i checked/fixed the timing. No luck

Checked compression. Good enough

Checked for fuel. Lots.

Checked for Spark. Looked good.

Checked codes: Code 26, I believe, dealing with the injectors... Might have popped up when checking compression with injector harness unplugged

Checked connections at LM. They were fine.

At this point I'm really baffled. Anyone have any other ideas?

looneytuner
03-01-2006, 10:55 AM
Check to see if shutter wheel is loose on plastic mount. It WILL run like sXXt if the plastic rivets have come loose. It is held to the plastic base by two melted "rivets". Since you are working out side, the repair is to take dist inside to warm up and use jb weld or fresh epoxy to tighten to attachment.

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 10:57 AM
You mean the HEP?

I forgot to mention I switched that out too.

Sigh...I hate problems that are hard to diagnose!

Thanks for the ideas though...keep em coming if you have any more!

Rattlesnake
03-01-2006, 11:45 AM
You mean the HEP?

I forgot to mention I switched that out too.

Sigh...I hate problems that are hard to diagnose!

Thanks for the ideas though...keep em coming if you have any more!

Check the brake booster and the one way valve, I had a similar problem and it was that the one way valve was defective, it was flowing both ways when I tested it. I put 2 in series to avoid any future problems. Desconnect the line to the brake booster and plug it and see how it runs. Also check all your vacuum lines.

Reinaldo Moloon

looneytuner
03-01-2006, 02:23 PM
You mean the HEP?

I forgot to mention I switched that out too.

Sigh...I hate problems that are hard to diagnose!

Thanks for the ideas though...keep em coming if you have any more!

No, the shutter wheel is UNDER the HEP. The shutter is metal and the mounting on dist shaft is plastic. It comes as one unit with the dist shaft.
I got a TC for $1895 because it ran so bad. It was just the loose shutter wheel.
If it's loose the computer is hunting for tdc cause it's moving around.

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 02:27 PM
No, the shutter wheel is UNDER the HEP. The shutter is metal and the mounting on dist shaft is plastic. It comes as one unit with the dist shaft.
I got a TC for $1895 because it ran so bad. It was just the loose shutter wheel.
If it's loose the computer is hunting for tdc cause it's moving around.

You know what. I was just driving back to work after lunch, thinking about what could be wrong with the car, and I actually realized that when I changed the HEP, I didn't check the shutter wheel underneath it. I need to do that when I get home. Thanks again for the suggestion! I'll report how that goes this evening. That would be sweet action...I have an extra dizzy or two around here somewhere.

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 02:28 PM
Check the brake booster and the one way valve, I had a similar problem and it was that the one way valve was defective, it was flowing both ways when I tested it. I put 2 in series to avoid any future problems. Desconnect the line to the brake booster and plug it and see how it runs. Also check all your vacuum lines.

Reinaldo Moloon


I'll check that too. What do you mean with the 'one way valve' You mean the PCV on the back on the valve cover? If so, I checked that, and while i could blow through it both ways, one way was so close to closed that I figure it couldn't possibly matter. I mean, it was tight, but not 100% sealed.

d

3Bar_Mopar
03-01-2006, 04:47 PM
I mean, it was tight, but not 100% sealed.




Well...normally it don't matter too much, but on these turbo cars...boost can pressurize the valve cover and blow out the gasket or cam seals....even if there's a small leak. It's kinda crucial to have a 100% sealed PCV valve with a TD.
I think he meant the check valve that's attached to the brake booster.

Your problem sounds like a bad hose to the map sensor or a bad map sensor. When I drove my car after I changed a blown headgasket, I still had enough coolant left in the intake manifold to clog the vac line to the MAP sensor... The car ran rough and lopey, and completely bogged, farted and spit under any boost....similar to overboost.

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 04:54 PM
That's kind of the problem I'm having. However, the car has a GLHS Stage II LM, which has the map right on the LM.

Sigh...stupid car problems. And now snow! I'd much rather drive this than my no traction RWD truck.

Thanks again!

d

Rattlesnake
03-01-2006, 05:22 PM
I'll check that too. What do you mean with the 'one way valve' You mean the PCV on the back on the valve cover? If so, I checked that, and while i could blow through it both ways, one way was so close to closed that I figure it couldn't possibly matter. I mean, it was tight, but not 100% sealed.

d
I mean, the plastic fitting on the brake booster. That is a one way valve. It could have a leak around the grommet or the brake booster itself has an internal leak. Just take the vacuum hose to the brake booster and plug it and see how she runs.

3Bar_Mopar
03-01-2006, 07:44 PM
That's kind of the problem I'm having. However, the car has a GLHS Stage II LM, which has the map right on the LM.

Sigh...stupid car problems. And now snow! I'd much rather drive this than my no traction RWD truck.

Thanks again!

d

Is the MAP sensor on those built onto the LM, or can you actually remove it from the LM?

Subliminal
03-01-2006, 08:41 PM
Welp, checked the shutter...it was fine.

Removed the brake booster line and plugged it. No difference.

The map is removable from the LM, I believe.

I'm now getting a code 26. It deals with the injectors. I replaced the rail and injector harness, but same problem exists. Could be wiring, could be power module maybe. All i know is i'm getting a little tired of trying to fix this thing every day for the 1.5 hrs of daylight i have in the cold.

Argh.

Rattlesnake
03-02-2006, 10:28 AM
Welp, checked the shutter...it was fine.

Removed the brake booster line and plugged it. No difference.

The map is removable from the LM, I believe.

I'm now getting a code 26. It deals with the injectors. I replaced the rail and injector harness, but same problem exists. Could be wiring, could be power module maybe. All i know is i'm getting a little tired of trying to fix this thing every day for the 1.5 hrs of daylight i have in the cold.

Argh.
Check injection pulse to the injectors. You can buy a noid light in a NAPA store and this sight will blink as injection increases or decreases. Look at the plugs and see if they all look similar. I'm sorry about the weather:mad: , but right now here it is at 70F and will be 80 by noon:) .

Rattlesnake
03-02-2006, 10:33 AM
Also do a resistance check on the injectors with an ohmmeter. Let me know the year of your application and I can get you the resistance value if you don't have it handy.

Subliminal
03-02-2006, 10:37 AM
Well, it's an 86 car with a glhs stage 2 lm and an 88 t1 engine. I would guess the injectors are out of the 88, but the power module is out of the 86. Just my guess at this point. ;)

Thanks for the help!

Rattlesnake
03-02-2006, 12:51 PM
I believe you need another computer. That code 26 is for injector drivers on the computer not reaching peak current target. That could also be caused by bad injectors with increased resistance. Buy the noid light to test the signal to the injectors and test the injectors with an ohmmeter. All injectors should have the same resistance, if they are not the same there is your problem.
And in your application it refers to the 1 and 2 injectors. Swapem, 1 and 2 for 3 and 4, if code 27 appears then the injectors are faulty, if code 26 reapears then the drivers in the computer for injectors 1 and 2 is faulty. In other words you would need another computer.

Subliminal
03-02-2006, 02:34 PM
Power Module, eh?

Man. I sold the other one I had, I think. I wish I still had it, as I only asked like $15 for it.

Subliminal
03-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Got another power module today. No change. Still getting code 26 and car still won't fire. Sad emoticon.

jckrieger
03-07-2006, 04:06 PM
It sounds like you have a broken wire/bad connection somewhere in your wiring. I've had the connectors on the fuel injector harness act funny where the engine speed would change if I moved the connector around. The only way to find if there is a problem is to look at the wiring diagrams with an ohm meter and find out where the resistance increase is.

I was troubleshooting the horn on my mom's Neon and the resistance from the horn relay to the switch in the column was 78 MegaOhms. Should have been more like 100 MicroOhms :) Turns out a piece of the wire's insulation wore off and then the wire oxidized and stopped conducting over the years.

Subliminal
03-07-2006, 04:36 PM
Man. That doesn't sound like fun at all.

Oh well, I guess i have to start a lookin'.

looneytuner
03-07-2006, 05:06 PM
Some hard to find problems. The map inside can get condensation in line. Blow it out. That's the reason they moved it under hood.
The fpr can get a small leak that is way down on the diagnostics list. IE after trying everything else it must be....fpr.
Check the wiring from power module to injector harness for resistance. Use dielectric grease on connectors. Work it in female connectors with toothpick.
Don't slop it on with fingers. this area is most likely the problem. I'm guessing cracked wire from pm just before plug to injector harness.
Check all three grounds. fuel harness to intake, intake to firewall, jumper on right engine mount.
Try a post for hard to diagnose code 26 to get the pro's help.

Subliminal
03-08-2006, 09:48 AM
Thanks Looney,

I replaced the fuel rail/injectors/harness and it was no change. I did find out that the car had problems before I got it, and that they turned out to be a cracked wire by the PM for the ASD Relay.

I guess I just need to get down and dirty and check out some wires. I think that's almost what it has to be.

Sigh...problems problems.

I won't be driving the car for a few weeks anyway, as I'm having shoulder surgery on my shiftin' arm. It's auto time for damon!

But, I'd still like to have it fixed. I had to fight the wife to get the damned thing, and now its sitting broken in the driveway. Makin' me look like an idiot.

jckrieger
03-08-2006, 04:10 PM
It might be time to get a good, lower miles wiring harness and call it a day. I'm sure you could get something really nice for under $200.

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2006, 05:29 PM
Makin' me look like an idiot.

Well, you know how to solve that, ;) :nod:

looneytuner
03-08-2006, 06:06 PM
Thanks Looney, I won't be driving the car for a few weeks anyway, as I'm having shoulder surgery on my shiftin' arm. It's auto time for damon!
A customer's husband had pack surgery. She went out to get the paper several days later and broke her right arm. Their only car was a stick Volvo.

They put their good parts together and she drove the car and operated the clutch and he shifted the gears.:nod: You could just solder one new wire from the pm to the harness for the 1/2 injectors till you get a new harness.


Personally, I try to stay away from the doctor place after my wife got the two for one price on brain tumor removals. That's why I'm the Looneytuner

Subliminal
03-08-2006, 07:51 PM
A customer's husband had pack surgery. She went out to get the paper several days later and broke her right arm. Their only car was a stick Volvo.

They put their good parts together and she drove the car and operated the clutch and he shifted the gears.:nod: You could just solder one new wire from the pm to the harness for the 1/2 injectors till you get a new harness.


Personally, I try to stay away from the doctor place after my wife got the two for one price on brain tumor removals. That's why I'm the Looneytuner

Wouldn't happen to have those pinouts would you? ;)

looneytuner
03-08-2006, 10:42 PM
pinouts sent email. They would hae been too small here. Haynes manual.

Subliminal
03-08-2006, 11:23 PM
Looney,

Like Bette Middler said...you are the wind beneath my wings!

Thanks Man!:thumb:

Subliminal
03-13-2006, 12:18 PM
Ok, so I got somewhere, but still not all there...

I cut off the last 6 inches of the main wiring harness wire before the fuel harness plug and soldered on new wires, cleaned them out, and used dielectric grease on the connector. Double checked the timing, and fired the car right up...which is good.

However, it sounds like it's running on about 2 cylinders. She's got some sort of knock that wasn't there before this wiring problem, and it takes her a while to rev.

Basically, it still isn't right.

However, now it isn't throwing any codes, other than the usual 12, 33, and 55.

I guess I'm at a loss of what to check next.

HEP, ditributor, and shutter are fine.

Plugs look decent.

Wires are new

Coil looks good and it seems to be giving plenty of spark.

Fuel flow aplenty

Compression around 100 in each cylinder (I know that's not optimal, but it isn't any different than how it was when it was running good.)

Sigh....what a pain in the buttocks!

turbovanmanČ
03-13-2006, 01:28 PM
Do you have your firing order right, mixing up 2 and 3 will make it do what its doing now.

looneytuner
03-13-2006, 02:18 PM
Firing order clockwise 1,3,2,4? If that's right, pull the plug wires (using rag as insulator) 1 by1 to see which cyls don't change idle.
BTW the 88 Daytona Z I'm working on has a bad injector or wire for 1 or 3. Code 26. So this thread is good for me. I finally got everything else fixed and found this.

Subliminal
03-13-2006, 02:53 PM
Yeah, 1324...Checked and triple checked.

I'm going to try the pulling plugs.

Thanks!

turbovanmanČ
03-13-2006, 05:20 PM
Yeah, 1324...Checked and triple checked.

I'm going to try the pulling plugs.

Thanks!

Dude, its 1 3 4 2, :eyebrows:

looneytuner
03-13-2006, 08:52 PM
Firing order clockwise 1,3,2,4? Found his problem???;) That's why the question mark was there. I'm gonna be 62 next week. Sen'or moments come more often.

midohiomoparsource
03-20-2006, 09:04 PM
I may sound stupid, but just a thought
I once had a Lancer and it ran like crap as well, bucked and all and would not barely move itself.
I checked the rod on the wastegate and it was unhooked. Hooked it back up, and it ran like a you know what.
Just a thought.
lots of good info in this thread.

Matt