How do I copy 2.5 timing to 2.2?

[tryingbe]

I have a 89 Daytona Shelby TII A555, stock wiring.

Spec of the engine is
Fast burn head
2 piece instake
slightly ported exhaust manifold
74k stock 2.5 short block
83 lbs injectors
Rebuilt TII Garrett turbo
2 bar map

I got a socketed 89 ECM
27C256 chip
zCHEM 2.0.0.8
Ladybug60.zip


I tried to download 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE.zip from http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12058 and copy the spark to the Ladybug60 cal, values, name, address, common, etc... are all difference.


How do I set the copy the spark timing for a 2.5L to the LadyBug60 cal?

Please help, this is the last piece to get my engine running.
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/Daytonaproject/enginedone4.jpg

[raccoon]

I would love to help, but I fear i'm a step or 2 behind you. just ordered my stuff to socket my extra SMBC.

nice clean setup btw, whats with the plain jane valve cover?

[tryingbe]

The TBI valve cover have a better baffle system, which is metal curtain that cover the entire cam shaft, lash adjusters, and rockers instead of the little metal bracket that cover only the # 1 and 2 cam cap. It also replaces the little baffle that RTVed onto the back of the turbo valve cover.

TBI valve cover have two vent outlets for the PCV system vs. one outlet of the turbo valve cover. It gets rid of the rubber T which keep making a oil mess because of the loose fit in my case.

Beside, if they don't already know my car has a turbo, they don't see the word TURBO under my hood. ;)

[Aries_Turbo]

ok, its not too hard. I assume you are running a 3-bar setup. you need to copy the tables from the 3-bar version of the T1 MTX cal. they may be slightly different in name but its not hard to get them in there. just make sure that the X and Y axis unit limits are the same before you overlay the tables to copy.

ill make a little comparison of the different names for you to copy.

robs cal name = ladybug name

AdvanceFromMapCold = AdvanceCold FromMap

AdvanceFromMapWarmPart = AdvanceWarmPartThrottle FromMap

AdvanceFromMapWarmFull = AdvanceWarmFullThrottle FromMap

AdvanceFromRPM2 = Advance FromRpm

now with the part and full throttle ones, i really think that rob has them backwards. the cal should call for less timing at WOT and more timing at part throttle and the way that Rob has them labled, there is more timing at WOT which doesnt make sense.

Brian

[tryingbe]

I figure the name out fine. How do I copy them over?

[Aries_Turbo]

oh ok, i see. you get a copy of d-cal (if you dont already have it) and you open the ladybug cal. then you hit "options" and browse for the shelgame cal and hit ok. then, change the table names so that they are the same in both cals and you will be able to see the comparison cal in the background. move the points on top of each other and you are all set. now, you will want to lower the timing after 15psi as it just levels off and thats bad. see the last slope? extend that more or less down to 29.4psi and you should be safe.

Brian

[tryingbe]

I only have zCHEM 2.0.0.8.

Can you send me a copy of the D-cal?

[cordes]

I only have zCHEM 2.0.0.8.

Can you send me a copy of the D-cal?

You might as well join the group so that you can read past posts and get at the other files on there whenever you want.

If you really need it I could send you D-cal and Chem1.

[Aries_Turbo]

tryingbe, PM sent....

[tryingbe]

Had to create a .tbl file for the ladybug60.bin in order to open in D-cal. Instructions didn't help. Scan didn't help. This is where I am stuck.

All I want is to copy the 2.5L timing table to the Ladybug60's timing table. Am I missing something here or is this really this difficult?

[moparzrule]

So you have D-cal now?
My version of ladybug I downloaded came with a TBL file, not sure why you had to create one. But I just did a comparision calibration on D-cal and the timing tables appear the same between ladybug60 and the 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE.zip.
Just a question though, why do you want to keep stock timing? Set the CEL to come on if knock is seen and advance the timing in small increments until it comes on and then back off slightly. If you do that with the part throttle and full throttle timing your out of boost power will be better along with pretty much more power throughout the RPM band. Oh and better fuel economy as well.

[Aries_Turbo]

he should have D-cal now if he checked his PM's.

matt I dont know what you are looking at but those timing tables are NOT the same at all.

tryingbe, ladybug60 comes with a tbl file. if you want, I can make a cal for you and email it to you.

Brian

[tryingbe]

So you have D-cal now?
My version of ladybug I downloaded came with a TBL file, not sure why you had to create one. But I just did a comparision calibration on D-cal and the timing tables appear the same between ladybug60 and the 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE.zip.
Just a question though, why do you want to keep stock timing? Set the CEL to come on if knock is seen and advance the timing in small increments until it comes on and then back off slightly. If you do that with the part throttle and full throttle timing your out of boost power will be better along with pretty much more power throughout the RPM band. Oh and better fuel economy as well.


Because if I am having trouble doing a "SHOULD be simple" task as copying timing table over, I'm sure I'll have trouble doing all the advance stuff such as advance my timing while watching the CEL. I don't want to blow my engine because I tried to learn how to run without even knowing how to walk first.

Alright, found the TBL file for ladybug60. I can load both ladybug60 or 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE. But when I opened one and then use the option button to open the comparison calibration in D-Cal, nothing seems to happen.

Aries_Turbo, that's a very kind offer. I'll take you up on it.

[moparzrule]

Alright, found the TBL file for ladybug60. I can load both ladybug60 or 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE. But when I opened one and then use the option button to open the comparison calibration in D-Cal, nothing seems to happen.
.


Yeah I found out why, the TBL files are different so they cannot be compared.
You'll have to get out a pen and paper, write down what RPM is how much advance at each point, and then do it manually to the other cal.

[moparzrule]

Because if I am having trouble doing a "SHOULD be simple" task as copying timing table over, I'm sure I'll have trouble doing all the advance stuff such as advance my timing while watching the CEL. I don't want to blow my engine because I tried to learn how to run without even knowing how to walk first.
.


You don't have to ''watch'' for the CEL, it's VERY easily seen out of the corner of your eye even while watching other gauges you see it come on.
Like I said, you take the conservative stock base cal, and bump timing up slowly until the light comes on. You will have to change different points several times. It's a trial and error process, I just learned it a couple months ago. But you pick up on it very quickly, trust me. My car has about 350 WHP, so if I can still see the CEL at WOT while watching other gauges, so can you.
Besides, ALWAYS start with the wastegate directly hooked to manifold vacuum, thats usually gives 5-7 PSI. You won't blow anything up at 7 PSI almost no matter what. You could hear audible pinging, and it won't do anything 7 PSI, and the knock sensor picks up far before you hear it.

[moparzrule]

matt I dont know what you are looking at but those timing tables are NOT the same at all.
Brian


Yeah I messed up, the TBL files are different so they cannot be compared. I thought at first they were the same because if you do a comparison and no black lines are there it's only behind the blue line. Then when I moved the blue line to find no black line I realized the tbl files where different thats why they weren't comparing.

[Aries_Turbo]

Because if I am having trouble doing a "SHOULD be simple" task as copying timing table over, I'm sure I'll have trouble doing all the advance stuff such as advance my timing while watching the CEL. I don't want to blow my engine because I tried to learn how to run without even knowing how to walk first.

Alright, found the TBL file for ladybug60. I can load both ladybug60 or 89_T1_MTX_SwBst_CE. But when I opened one and then use the option button to open the comparison calibration in D-Cal, nothing seems to happen.

Aries_Turbo, that's a very kind offer. I'll take you up on it.

ill do it for you but you are VERY close in being able to edit it yourself. youll need to learn these things anyway so you might as well take a crack at it. you dont need to use a pen and paper. it would be nice if EVERYONE used the same naming scheme but alas, they decided to be different. D-cal compares the tables by the name in the list... the descriptive name. Chem2 had to be different and compare by the chrysler common name. annoying. just find one and stick with it. i sure wish someone would combine the best features of both programs ie the crisp interface of d-cal with the tweaks and power of Chem2. then i wouldnt have to use both.

you need to open TWO instances of D-cal at the same time. with one, open the Ladybug cal, with the other, open the correct 3-BAR cal. you are still pointing to the stock 2-bar version. you need to download the 3-bar version.

all you do is look at the table name of the one cal in the 1st Dcal program window, and double click on the other cal name in the list in the second d-cal program window and another window pops up. make the names match the same in both cals.

then save the one you changed and reopen and compare. then it will pop up and youll be like "woah, that wasnt that bad"

Brian

[tryingbe]

you need to open TWO instances of D-cal at the same time. with one, open the Ladybug cal, with the other, open the correct 3-BAR cal. you are still pointing to the stock 2-bar version. you need to download the 3-bar version.

all you do is look at the table name of the one cal in the 1st Dcal program window, and double click on the other cal name in the list in the second d-cal program window and another window pops up. make the names match the same in both cals.


Alright, got the names straighten out and now I can compare them, thanks.


ok, its not too hard. I assume you are running a 3-bar setup. you need to copy the tables from the 3-bar version of the T1 MTX cal. they may be slightly different in name but its not hard to get them in there. just make sure that the X and Y axis unit limits are the same before you overlay the tables to copy.

ill make a little comparison of the different names for you to copy.

robs cal name = ladybug name

AdvanceFromMapCold = AdvanceCold FromMap

AdvanceFromMapWarmPart = AdvanceWarmPartThrottle FromMap

AdvanceFromMapWarmFull = AdvanceWarmFullThrottle FromMap

AdvanceFromRPM2 = Advance FromRpm

now with the part and full throttle ones, i really think that rob has them backwards. the cal should call for less timing at WOT and more timing at part throttle and the way that Rob has them labled, there is more timing at WOT which doesnt make sense.

Brian

So, what do you suggest me to do with the part and full throttle timing?

[ShelGame]

Why copy the 2.5 timing to LB60? Why not just use of the 2.5 T1 cals?

Not sure if it helps, but I have a 'new' 89T1-based code nearly ready. I used the same naming conventions as LB60. The only problem is, the 89 T1 uses an option flag byte for some of the cal options. And, I added another one for the optional features. These flags don't work right in CHeM2. But, they're fine in CHeM and D-Cal.

I'm not sure if anyone is interested in testing it, but I'd be glad to send it to anyone that wants to. It does have a single problem (that I've found so far) - the ASD does not cycle 'off' when you key-on. It should come on for 1-2 sec and then turn off. But, it never turns off. My car seems to run just fine with it, though.

[tryingbe]

Because scaling injectors with the ladybug60 is much easier, that cal already have all the fuel table selected to be scaled, I don't have to individual select the tables and risk missing one or more.




now with the part and full throttle ones, i really think that rob has them backwards. the cal should call for less timing at WOT and more timing at part throttle and the way that Rob has them labled, there is more timing at WOT which doesnt make sense.

What do you think about what Brian said?

[ShelGame]

I've checked several times. They're labelled correctly. You have to remember, in the '89 T1, there is a factor added in based on the open-loop timer. The max for this factor is +1.5 deg. So, in effect, the WOT and P/T timing is the same in boost (-6.5deg).

I don't think the '89 T2 uses this open-loop timer factor.

[tryingbe]

I don't know anything about calibration so therefore I can't remember anything.

Here's what I'm going to do.

1. Add 3 bar map to my car, and double check the wiring
2. Get a clean Ladybug60 cal
3. Adjust the cal for my 83lbs injectors
4. Get the 2.5L timing in there
5. Burn chip and start the car!

DONE, right?
Am I missing anything?

[Aries_Turbo]

I've checked several times. They're labelled correctly.

now with this being different and more like a 87T2 in the ladybug stuff, what do you suggest? my car runs great with them switched.

Brian

[ShelGame]

I think the factory 2.5 cal is very conserative. So, if it works for you, leave it...