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View Full Version : NO BS: Welded Diff, fact vs. fiction



8valves
02-21-2006, 10:08 PM
Alright- first and foremost. I don't want to hear "it shouldn't be used for on the street, it's dangerous, etc etc" from someone who has never run one. Sorry, theory tends to not work here in my eyes.

I am highly considering welding my diff on my daily driver, yes, daily driver vehicle for the utmost traction when for once I can't save enough due to lack of employment for too long for the "right parts."

I have TWO seperate people right now that have personally run them in their daily driven vehicles, one in a FWD Talon TSi pushing some decent power (340 whp), and one Honda that does it as well (520 whp). According to them you just need to be careful on tight corners, parking, etc. Normal driving, highway curves, etc... no worries. Neither of them have broken anything in over a year and a half besides weak axles, and both say they'd do it again in a heartbeat. These cars also had NO power steering on a power rack, just like I do.

If you have personal experience in a FWD welded diff car with street tires, not trying to turn on big slicks etc, please speak up. I know this isn't the optimal setup, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Aaron Miller

GLHS592
02-21-2006, 10:22 PM
Have you driven either of those cars? It sounds to me like it would cause more worry than it's worth. I know I'd be worrying about breaking something all the time. Also, why the concern for traction right now? I'd personally save up the money to solve this problem. You have sold some parts lately. :)

mrboost
02-21-2006, 11:40 PM
Well, I could tell ya, but instead, c'mon over and you can take the Daytona for a spin. It has street tires on it, and then if you like you can try the slicks, they're just in the basement. My car is rack and pinion (obviously) and doesn't have power steering like the ones you're comparing to.

I do drive it short distances on the radials, but with the slicks, FORGET IT!

If you're thinking about doing this to your car that you drive regularly, don't do it until you've driven mine or someone else's. One of the biggest problems is that on radial tires if you do break traction the steering wheel is really hard to hold on to, and of course there is always the 3-4 cuts to get it in the driveway. I might be spoiled by driving my Jeep everyday, but this isn't something I'd want to deal with on a day to day basis. Hooks like a mofo though!


Alright- first and foremost. I don't want to hear "it shouldn't be used for on the street, it's dangerous, etc etc" from someone who has never run one. Sorry, theory tends to not work here in my eyes.

I am highly considering welding my diff on my daily driver, yes, daily driver vehicle for the utmost traction when for once I can't save enough due to lack of employment for too long for the "right parts."

I have TWO seperate people right now that have personally run them in their daily driven vehicles, one in a FWD Talon TSi pushing some decent power (340 whp), and one Honda that does it as well (520 whp). According to them you just need to be careful on tight corners, parking, etc. Normal driving, highway curves, etc... no worries. Neither of them have broken anything in over a year and a half besides weak axles, and both say they'd do it again in a heartbeat. These cars also had NO power steering on a power rack, just like I do.

If you have personal experience in a FWD welded diff car with street tires, not trying to turn on big slicks etc, please speak up. I know this isn't the optimal setup, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Aaron Miller

altered7151
02-22-2006, 12:07 AM
I was good friends with a guy that had a welded diff in his honda, he was pushing a little over 300 at the wheels. He drove his car on the street regularly, and although you had to pay attention quite a bit more, its definitally doable. He would just pay attention to parking lots and park in areas where he wouldn't have to make tight turns, and he quite using drive-thrus, but hey we could all use the exercise. You'll burn through tires pretty good though, that thing would howl like a dirty whore on tight freeway on ramps. Pulled like a raped ape on the straights though. It was a huge pain to move around in the shop by pushing it though, it was easier to just jack up the front end and move it on the floor jack. He said he would do it again though it he had to do it all over.

turbojerk
02-22-2006, 05:30 AM
If you're really that concerned about traction, spend the money on the LSD. Welding the diff may work, but it will also make the car unreliable and aggravating for everyday driving....

8valves
02-22-2006, 11:52 AM
If you're really that concerned about traction, spend the money on the LSD. Welding the diff may work, but it will also make the car unreliable and aggravating for everyday driving....

This is what I'm not looking to hear, sorry. If i had the cash I'd buy an LSD, but it's not a viable option right now. This particularly upsets me because for once I have to skimp out on my car, and that's just not my style.

And I don't understand why there is this concencus that something will break when you have a welded diff... most surely the tires will slip/scrub before the difference in turning speed with over torque the axles.

Kevin, nope, haven't driven either of them. I've only driven a couple of LSD cars that were tightened up pretty good, and on tight corners would shudder a bit or squeel a little.

To me streetable is as long as it'll idle without overheating, stop, have registration and insurance, and it won't kill me. The latter is the only one I'm concerned about when it comes to this.

Paul- I may have to take you up on that offer. It'll give me a reason to drop off your radiator as well. Also, the DSM and the Honda both did NOT have PS working on their vehicles, and were still going through a power rack... same thing I do right now.

You know how I am, and you know that a streetable race car is my idea of a perfect daily driver. I just think this is the next step is not having any qualms about lining up with the F body boys and Mustang guys down here at school. I've got to defend my title this spring, and the smack talking has already begun.

So we've got one other Honda guy that did it and said the same thing my guys said, if they had the choice they'd do it again. Paul said he has driven it for short jaunts, but probably wouldn't want to deal with it all the time. Anyone else have some real world experience?

Thanks for your input, sorry if it sounds like I'm set in my ways... but maybe I am. I think this is a real alternative for those that aren't scared to use a little muscle and a little common sense while driving. As long as it isn't absolutely I'm-scared-for-my-life horrible, I'm game.

Aaron Miller

Frank
02-22-2006, 12:03 PM
Does it make a difference if you have PS or not? I wonder what the effects are...


Frank

GLHS592
02-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Let me tell you something. Even with a welded diff/limited slip, you aren't going to get much traction on the street. Multiply that by 5 if you are making any kind of power. I have an Alabama Man diff. insert. When I hammer on the car at 45 mph in 3rd gear, all I do is spin. That's on just 15-16 psi of boost.

Mirage
02-22-2006, 12:56 PM
I have a welded diff in my Honda LSR car. I can only say that it takes the fun out of life. Imagine having to make a 3 point turn just to go through a drive-thru, and breaking a sweat doing it. Struggling with your car is not cool nor fun. If you are running a P/S rack without power steering then it's only worse. I consider my Honda to be undrivable on the street now. I can tough it out, I just dont WANT to drive it anymore.

I have 3 words for you:

DON'T
DO
IT

john

tryingbe
02-22-2006, 01:02 PM
I bet it would suck big time when you're turning and stopping or stopping on an un-even road.

And I hope you don't have to drive in the rain.

Marcus86GLHS
02-22-2006, 01:05 PM
"...Even with a welded diff/limited slip, you aren't going to get much traction on the street. ..."

exactly what i was thinking.

in my experience, tires make more of a difference in traction/60-foot times than the differential with the TD's.

8valves
02-22-2006, 01:35 PM
I'm surprised there is this much negative feedback going on. I mean, I guess I'm not, because it's a general concencus that it's a race only type deal... but that's my kind of style.

I was getting the 370 whp to hook if I was very gragdual into the throttle and feathered it once into it in third. 4th would hold without too much drama. This is on the Azenis ST115's that you're getting Kevin. The car now has 225/50/15 BFG DR's for everyday driving.

We can't just keep putting our heads in the sand over "we can't get traction." There are ways to do it, it just requires taking steps that are out of the ordinary, away from the comfort zone of modifying our cars, if you will.

If guys are getting 500 and 600 or even more wheel cars to hook a gear or two on the street then why can't we? I'd love to say "It's because we make more torque", but when some of the good Honda guys are making 400-500 tq then it's possible for us.

Want to go really extreme? M&H and MT both make a 235/60/15 Drag Radial. For those doing math that is over 26" in diameter, for a street drag radial. Mark's hatchback is making 363 whp and 280 wtq and it hooks FIRST GEAR, with a GT30R DBB turbo coming on HARD... and this is on an OPEN DIFF. Does it look silly with baloon tires? Yeah, but he doesn't care. Would a car be hard to drive with a welded diff, yeah, but to me it might be worth it. I've yet to decide.

Please keep those experiences coming, I'm actually open to people's opinions/suggestions as it makes me think it through really well. Thanks.

Aaron Miller

mock_glh
02-22-2006, 01:37 PM
You don't want to know what the car will do if one axle breaks when you're racing. You might swerve off into the guard rail (or side of the road) or into the car you're racing. (I don't suppose you have billet axles that won't break.) One wheel burnouts can be reduced or eliminated by adjusting the left to right balance of the drive wheels. I have a Quaife in my Omni and it made no difference in my drag strip times after doing this.:thumb:

8valves
02-22-2006, 01:39 PM
I bet it would suck big time when you're turning and stopping or stopping on an un-even road.

And I hope you don't have to drive in the rain.


Why a problem in teh rain? If you think about it, you have MORE traction at all times in comparison. Same with snow driving, although this car doesn't see the snow. Obviously I'll need to be very concious of when the car starts to loose traction, or push, etc, step in the clutch and calmly reign her in... and that's if it gets out of shape that much.

I think people need to realize that the only function that will be affected is tight corner turning, in which I'll just have to muscle it out. That is, if I do it.

Aaron Miller

8valves
02-22-2006, 01:43 PM
You don't want to know what the car will do if one axle breaks when you're racing. You might swerve off into the guard rail (or side of the road) or into the car you're racing. (I don't suppose you have billet axles that won't break.) One wheel burnouts can be reduced or eliminated by adjusting the left to right balance of the drive wheels. I have a Quaife in my Omni and it made no difference in my drag strip times after doing this.:thumb:

I respect your opinion Boyd, and I fully understand the suspension setup and weighting to hook the primary drive wheel. However on the street it's much easier to lose traction, and as soon as the one wheel starts to slip, as I'm sure you know, all power will be transferred to that wheel... bye bye acceleration.

Now, when you break an axle you should already be on the clutch and out of the gas. Once this is accomplished there shouldn't be any pulling, as far as I can figure. There of course will be the initial pull as power just goes one way, but to me won't that be the same as the open diff spin game? My car tries to change lanes when it starts to let go! Boyd, have you ran a welded diff before?

Aaron Miller

turbovanmanČ
02-22-2006, 01:54 PM
Sorry, I don't have experience but based on reading etc and hearing about the steering wheel rip out of you hand. If driving in the rain, its the same as losing traction, the it pull you side to side as the tires grip and unload, I can't imagine that would be very safe, even on damp roads.
Also, if your running DR's, you will have a one week lifespan, :(
Have to add, I know about the tire wear as when I work on 4x4's and engage it, drive around the parking lot, I can't get into my bay and I leave blackies trying to do a sharp turn.

jckrieger
02-22-2006, 02:05 PM
Also, if your running DR's, you will have a one week lifespan, :(

Turbovanman is right, welding the diff will make your tires wear 1000% faster. Both of my friends welded their rear differentials in their Rangers and both of them regret it for a daily driver... and this is RWD we're talking about. Both of my friends have a dark area going into the driveway where the tires are laying down the rubber as they drive in and out of the driveway. Also, the trucks will hop when trying to make even a soft u-turn. I remember watching the SMP guys trying to turn their Charger around at SDAC 12 or 13 with the welded front diff. I think it took 10 tries to get the car straight at the starting line. As stated before, you might be ok with a welded diff until you get sticky tires, but once you get tires you'll be in for some trouble.

Mirage
02-22-2006, 02:13 PM
Also, keep in mind that when the wheel is turned hard (assuming you could actually do it), the engine wants to stall since you are going to have to do a 1 wheel burn out just to move forward at all. When you let off the pressure, the steering wheel wants to RIP out of your hand and do 1-2 complete turns. I can not overstate the forces required to drive like this. It gets very old, very very fast.

Without driving one, you simply can't believe what it's like. You have to experience it, hopefully before you do it to your car.

Also, it wears out your clutch real fast.

tryingbe
02-22-2006, 02:45 PM
Why a problem in teh rain? If you think about it, you have MORE traction at all times in comparison. Same with snow driving, although this car doesn't see the snow. Obviously I'll need to be very concious of when the car starts to loose traction, or push, etc, step in the clutch and calmly reign her in... and that's if it gets out of shape that much.



I'm sure you have no problem ACCELERATING in the rain.

It's the slowing stopping, turning, handling part in the rain. Think about it, you're only going to have one front wheel for traction at all time unless you are going absoutely straight and it is a completely even road. *good luck finding that on public street*

Rubber skipping and slidding does NOT equal to traction. Not when you want to stop your car nor take that corner.

altered7151
02-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Well you could always just try find a diff from a bad or spare tranny and try it. Then if it doesn't work put the other diff in. There's no real way to know if its for you unless you try it yourself. Some people are going to tell you they like it, some people are going to tell you it sucks. It all in the preference and how much you are willing to give up in comfort for performance. It will probably also make more of a difference in different cars, you will probably notice it alot more in a fully trimmed daytona then in a lightened L-body.

Mario
02-22-2006, 03:48 PM
You can weld the diff in my piece and see how you like it. :)

mrboost
02-22-2006, 09:17 PM
Instead of doing this right away, maybe take me up on the offer to set up speed based progressive boost control. If I can spend a day with the car, I can get you on the threshold of traction in each gear. It might not be a cure all or the ultimate, but it will get the car to hook and make it much nicer to drive. You will think it's slower from the progressive rise however, but I know the timeslips will reflect otherwise.



Paul- I may have to take you up on that offer. It'll give me a reason to drop off your radiator as well. Also, the DSM and the Honda both did NOT have PS working on their vehicles, and were still going through a power rack... same thing I do right now.

You know how I am, and you know that a streetable race car is my idea of a perfect daily driver. I just think this is the next step is not having any qualms about lining up with the F body boys and Mustang guys down here at school. I've got to defend my title this spring, and the smack talking has already begun.

Ondonti
02-22-2006, 09:47 PM
Balance the front end with some cheap air shocks or cheap helper air bags that fit into the springs. I use the helper air bags and they work great.

The 800-700whp hondas in utah all run open dif. If dont do one legged burnouts by balancing the front end then a welded dif isnt going to help anything.

Mirage
02-22-2006, 10:15 PM
Here is the welded diff in my a413

http://www.bonneville200.com/weldeddiffa413_2.JPG

http://www.bonneville200.com/weldeddiffA413_1.JPG

At least with the Dodge transmissions it's easy to R&R. On a Honda gearbox, you have to remove the transmission, split the case and then remove all the gear clusters before you can remove the diff.

8valves
02-22-2006, 10:48 PM
Balance the front end with some cheap air shocks or cheap helper air bags that fit into the springs. I use the helper air bags and they work great.

The 800-700whp hondas in utah all run open dif. If dont do one legged burnouts by balancing the front end then a welded dif isnt going to help anything.

I balance my car using my coil-overs, it gets it pretty good. You know what makes the biggest difference in chassis balance? Tire pressure. That is the end all be all in adjustment of weight/heights in the front end. If you don't believe that, go throw the car on corner scales and drop .25 psi out of a front tire and watch how every corner is affected in frame height and weight distribution.

Anywho. I might try to find a spare diff and weld it and see how I like it. I think people are just being a bit over cautious, but I could be 100% wrong. I'm not too worried about rain stopping/turning. Only in super tight corners will I be worried. Just because your diff is locked up now doesn't change light corner stopping/turning (light as in gradual bend). There isn't a huge differntial (haha, get it!?) between wheel speeds at those radius corners, so it shouldn't be too big of a problem.

Paul- we'll have to take the car out for a couple of hours after the dyno this spring and see how it acts. My only gripe is that I'd want to be able to change it back and forth between all out power in all gears (slicks) and moderated for street driving. I'm not sure if that's a doable thing or not. Even still I'd like to see how yoru car acts on the roads on some street tires.

Aaron Miller

Directconnection
02-22-2006, 11:40 PM
Please keep those experiences coming, I'm actually open to people's opinions/suggestions as it makes me think it through really well. Thanks.

Aaron Miller

No experiences...but talking to my friend years ago about RWD cars and spools... with a spool in a high HP rwd car, if an axle breaks, the car instantly shoots for the wall. He's seen it happen before.

FWD...not sure what would happen, but something to think about as we know TD's can break axles too.

8valves
02-22-2006, 11:57 PM
No experiences...but talking to my friend years ago about RWD cars and spools... with a spool in a high HP rwd car, if an axle breaks, the car instantly shoots for the wall. He's seen it happen before.

FWD...not sure what would happen, but something to think about as we know TD's can break axles too.

Yeah, people talk about how hard the car will pull if you break an axle... but think about it. If I break an axle, I'm going to jab the clutch immediately because i KNOW something went wrong. To me it would be just like when the car loses traction on one wheel. If you think about it in logic it is the same thing. When an open diff spins one wheel ALL power goes to that side, pulling it hard as I'm sure anyone in teh upper power echelon can understand.

Does anyone see where I'm coming from on this? Then again, that's logic and theory, exactly what I don't want to go with on this. I want to hear from people that have driven a FWD welded diff car on teh street.

Aaron Miller

mrboost
02-23-2006, 12:07 AM
Yeah, I can do that.


Paul- we'll have to take the car out for a couple of hours after the dyno this spring and see how it acts. My only gripe is that I'd want to be able to change it back and forth between all out power in all gears (slicks) and moderated for street driving. I'm not sure if that's a doable thing or not. Even still I'd like to see how yoru car acts on the roads on some street tires.

Aaron Miller

8valves
02-23-2006, 12:12 AM
Yeah, I can do that.

Hey- I'm gonna call you. Dumb decision because i have class in 8 hours, an dhaven't slept lately, but oh well!

AM

Ondonti
02-23-2006, 02:51 AM
Well if you havent noticed, it takes 4-17 seconds to complete the 1/4 miles. The faster you are, the less time it takes. Not being an a-hole here, just trying to make this simple. If it takes you 11 seconds to run 1320 feet, think how fast it takes you to travel 10 feet into the wall when your axle breaks. Im pretty sure you will just hit the wall unless you get lucky. Wheelspin you can predict, but if your spool randomly breaks an axel at halftrack every 100 passes, you arent going to be prepared.


Yeah, people talk about how hard the car will pull if you break an axle... but think about it. If I break an axle, I'm going to jab the clutch immediately because i KNOW something went wrong. To me it would be just like when the car loses traction on one wheel. If you think about it in logic it is the same thing. When an open diff spins one wheel ALL power goes to that side, pulling it hard as I'm sure anyone in teh upper power echelon can understand.

Does anyone see where I'm coming from on this? Then again, that's logic and theory, exactly what I don't want to go with on this. I want to hear from people that have driven a FWD welded diff car on teh street.

Aaron Miller

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2006, 02:55 AM
Yeah, people talk about how hard the car will pull if you break an axle... but think about it. If I break an axle, I'm going to jab the clutch immediately because i KNOW something went wrong.

Aaron Miller

You think you can react fast enough but in reality, you can't. I speak from experience in Superbike racing. When the motor lets go, or your drafting at 170 mph and he misses a gear etc, you think you can react, but you can't.

Clay
02-23-2006, 09:55 AM
Aaron -

with all the time and money you have in that car, why would you go 'half arse' and weld the diff?

Dave
02-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Just do it, it will be a fun experiment!:evil:

tryingbe
02-23-2006, 11:46 AM
You think you can react fast enough but in reality, you can't. I speak from experience in Superbike racing. When the motor lets go, or your drafting at 170 mph and he misses a gear etc, you think you can react, but you can't.


Yup, when you're traveling 170mph, you're going close to a football field length per 1 second.

8valves
02-23-2006, 11:51 AM
Aaron -

with all the time and money you have in that car, why would you go 'half arse' and weld the diff?

I feel exactly the same way. But maybe people don't realize how hard it si for me to keep up with my car. I'm 19. I go to school full time in an area where average household income is extremely low, so normal college kid jobs are tough to find. I FINALLY got another job, so money will slowly start to trickle back in, but it's tough.

I've gotten this far with the car with extremely hard work and pushing myself with time for soccer, school, work, then cars. I have very little social life/partying in comparison to most college kids because it's just not for me. I enjoy it more to be out ripping on my car, and then party when that's done!

I'm not trying to do a sob story here, but I just flat out can't afford to do an LSD when I have the rest of the car to finish putting back together, again. Not to mention I'm trying to save for better rods for future power upgrades.

I agree entirely, I want a quaiffe. I don't really want an OBX. Right now it's just not happeneing, so I was looking for an alternative.

Now for those about the axle break issue... what happens when you break an axle on a stiff LSD car? Seriously, i don't know, I'm asking. Theory would tell me a very similar situation, since it's trying to deliver power to both wheels. Theory is more than likely entirely wrong here though, so educate me, those with experience.

Aaron Miller

mock_glh
02-23-2006, 12:36 PM
You don't want to know what the car will do if one axle breaks when you're racing. You might swerve off into the guard rail (or side of the road) or into the car you're racing.

Maybe you do. Check this out.
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=boyd-vs-67nova

I think that's what happened to this guy. He wasn't quick enough to deal with it. The ironic thing is that I used to have a Nova very similar to that one.
(Hot Rod, May 1983)

By the way, Aaron, there is no "primary" drive wheel. If it's spinning, it's not really driving, is it? Of course if you broke an axle with a locked diff the remaining wheel would become the primary drive and since it is outside of the steering axis it will try to make the car turn with more force than you would imagine. Not too bad on the starting line, but at speed, uh uh.

bn880
02-23-2006, 12:48 PM
If you can't afford the LSD then just don't do anything. Concentrate on making the money for one then. my 2c.

I can't afford it either, so I'm not welding a diff... :thumb: (can't have it all, it's the journey that's half the fun)

Clay
02-23-2006, 12:55 PM
Not to mention welded diffs are illegeal for most organized drag racing. (ie NHRA, not sure about IHRA).

cordes
02-23-2006, 12:59 PM
I feel exactly the same way. But maybe people don't realize how hard it si for me to keep up with my car. I'm 19. I go to school full time in an area where average household income is extremely low, so normal college kid jobs are tough to find. I FINALLY got another job, so money will slowly start to trickle back in, but it's tough.

I've gotten this far with the car with extremely hard work and pushing myself with time for soccer, school, work, then cars. I have very little social life/partying in comparison to most college kids because it's just not for me. I enjoy it more to be out ripping on my car, and then party when that's done!

I'm not trying to do a sob story here, but I just flat out can't afford to do an LSD when I have the rest of the car to finish putting back together, again. Not to mention I'm trying to save for better rods for future power upgrades.

I agree entirely, I want a quaiffe. I don't really want an OBX. Right now it's just not happeneing, so I was looking for an alternative.

Now for those about the axle break issue... what happens when you break an axle on a stiff LSD car? Seriously, i don't know, I'm asking. Theory would tell me a very similar situation, since it's trying to deliver power to both wheels. Theory is more than likely entirely wrong here though, so educate me, those with experience.

Aaron Miller

A quaife/OBX style diff, Torsen(sp?) if I am not mistaken require both axles for it to work from what I have read. If one breaks it stops working. If an axle breaks with a welded diff or a spool, your good alxe keeps pulling .

turbovanmanČ
02-23-2006, 01:37 PM
Aaron, not slagging on you, with what you've accomplished on your budget is amazing, just trying to educate you and this thread is excellent, :nod:

iniviate
02-23-2006, 02:02 PM
my jeep has a spool in the front. i recently broke the rear driveshaft and had to drive home with front wheel drive.

i seriously couldn't make turns. i stayed on the back roads and was ending up in peoples yards.

i suspect the 40" tires were a big part of it not wanting to turn though.

altered7151
02-23-2006, 02:06 PM
I believe Stephane was running a welded diff up until a couple years ago, where he went to a spool, which is essentially the same thing. I understand peoples concern about the axle breaking, but lets see by a show of hands how many people have actually broken an axle? Now out of those people, how many have broken that axle further down the track then the 60ft line? If you are running slicks and have your motor properly centered, you greatly reduce the risk of axle breakage, a good part of the time its caused by wheel hop. Sure there are cases of guys snapping axles from shear power, but its almost always at launch where the axle is under the most stress.

tryingbe
02-23-2006, 02:16 PM
I've got to defend my title this spring, and the smack talking has already begun.


You'll be so much happier if you let this go. No matter how fast you get, there is always somebody else who is faster...

8valves
02-23-2006, 04:13 PM
You'll be so much happier if you let this go. No matter how fast you get, there is always somebody else who is faster...

Oh, how I know that. Do you know what it's like trying to build a fast car, while your 21 y/o brother can sink 90% of his income, which is more than your mom's into his Talon? Yeah... always someone faster for sure! :p

Beyond that, I'm more bugged by the principle that I can't seem to gain the respect of people, simply because of my cylinder count, and the fact that I encroach and have already a couple of times ruined people's reputation as having "a sick 10 second, off bottle Camaro!" Yeah... that later dyno'd 330 whp off the bottle, and 500 even on it. Good one.

Anywho. I'm fairly convinced, in my mind at least, that I'm not going to be doing it at this point. I'll probably change my mind about 15 times before I actually come to a final decision, but I keep playing a phrase that my dad runs past me all the time of "Is the risk worth the reward." Somehow I can't see having a bit more traction and a bit less streetability worth it if I end up in a ditch or worse... regardless of if it was a broken axle, not being able to corner, or something I thought of last night while I was at work, what if I need to avoid someone immediately and can't because I couldn't turn hard enough, and now my whole basically life investment (sad isn't it?) is lost because insurance doesn't care about old 80's Dodge's.

Thanks for everyone who had good, real life experience input. I'll have to sit and think for a long while, and maybe see how just drag radials do for a while until I can save some more cash. Seems as though every winter it's a couple more thousand... like there's always something else it needs.

Aaron Miller

GLHS592
02-23-2006, 04:35 PM
Aaron, Aaron, Aaron. I'm just now realizing you're still a teanager. You have PLENTY of time to do this car stuff. Put your education and Soccer first. Good grades in school might determine if you have more car money later on. One day, you'll be too old, lazy, or fat (I'm all 3) to play soccer. Don't worry about your Shelby Charger. Heck, I never had a Shelby Charger until I was 22 years old. Even then, I just drove it. My dad would have killed me if I broke it while racing because I was too poor to fix it. I didn't really have the money to be buying cars and hot rodding cars until I was 24 or 25 years old.

I ain't going to lie to you and say I didn't wish I had a fast car in high school and college. If I'd have had my car in high school, I'd have been a legend. That didn't happen. Even so, life has been pretty darn good for me.

altered7151
02-23-2006, 06:03 PM
Aaron, Aaron, Aaron. I'm just now realizing you're still a teanager. You have PLENTY of time to do this car stuff. Put your education and Soccer first. Good grades in school might determine if you have more car money later on. One day, you'll be too old, lazy, or fat (I'm all 3) to play soccer. Don't worry about your Shelby Charger. Heck, I never had a Shelby Charger until I was 22 years old. Even then, I just drove it. My dad would have killed me if I broke it while racing because I was too poor to fix it. I didn't really have the money to be buying cars and hot rodding cars until I was 24 or 25 years old.

I ain't going to lie to you and say I didn't wish I had a fast car in high school and college. If I'd have had my car in high school, I'd have been a legend. That didn't happen. Even so, life has been pretty darn good for me.

Good advice! I just went through that whole thing, I went back to college and gave up alot to be able to support myself and pay for college, but now I'm done and its all paying off. Got a good job that pays well, and still gives me plenty of free time for my projects. So now I can do all the things that I've been pissed off I couldn't do the past 5 years.

Mirage
02-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Beyond that, I'm more bugged by the principle that I can't seem to gain the respect of people, simply because of my cylinder count

V8's piss on you because of it being a 4 banger.
Dodge guys piss on Hondas just because of the name badge.
Honda guys piss on domestics because they are so backwards.
Fords piss on Chevys because they are not Fords
Chevys piss on Dodge's because they are not Chevys
Dodge's piss on Fords becaust they are not Dodge

If it weren't for the narrow mindedness of the general public, what would the "Calvin pissing on whatever" sticker manufacturers do?

tryingbe
02-23-2006, 07:27 PM
Oh, how I know that. Do you know what it's like trying to build a fast car, while your 21 y/o brother can sink 90% of his income, which is more than your mom's into his Talon? Yeah... always someone faster for sure! :p

Don't get me started. I can only spend $300 each month for my car, I'm also supporting a my mother, sister, and brother.. Half of my income goes to rent and utilities.

For my GLH, and it's not even running yet and I need it running by the end of April.

$1000 car, $1150 for short block + tranny + 7 wheels, $80 for halftshafts, $35 for another wheel, $150 for air ticket, $260 for tires + mount balaced, $50 for swing valve/wastegate can, $120 for good turbo, $140 for injectors, $60 map, $120 for 255 pump, $95 for engine hoist, $40 for stands, $20 for misc bolts, $20 for carb/brake cleaner, $100 for gasket/seals/headbolts, $150 for windshield, $120 for seats, $200 for custom ECU, $50 for cylinder head, $85 for resurface head, $20 for oil pan, $40 for enigne mounts, $120 for a power/manual steering rack, $110 for stainless steel oil/coolant lines, $120 for stainless steel brake lines, brake pads $40, Rebuilt front calipers $50, Rear disc conversion $90, new rear bearing $50, new front bearign/seal $50 and I'll just put another $100 for misc crap that I bought. and I still need pipe for exhast, pipe for IC, silicon hoses, and IC... plus countless hours...




Beyond that, I'm more bugged by the principle that I can't seem to gain the respect of people, simply because of my cylinder count

Why do you even bother than? By your words, even if you run 8 seconds, you're still NOT going to get any respect because you have 4 cylinders.

GLHSKEN
02-23-2006, 07:31 PM
And does it matter...

Warren Stramer
02-24-2006, 12:40 AM
For what its worth, I've run welded diffs with a manual and an automatic, with power steering and with manual rack, also with p/s and no belt. with and without slicks. On the street or highway with depressed wheel tracks the car is ALL OVER the road under heavy throttle but ok at cruise. With power steering it is tollerable if not in heavy traffic or making alot of tight turns. With power steering and no p/s belt.....FORGET IT!....with manual rack on the street...Just asking for a lawsuit..... As for the wear issue, can't say I ever wore anything out from the welded diff. but I'm SURE I didn't do anything any good. I was once of the opinion that if you broke an axle while drag racing that you would not be able to control the torque steer and surely hit the wall or worse. I even posted something to that effect on another board, but I have since broke three axles on my 10 sec car at the track and was surprised at how easy it was to control.
On any track I've raced at the car drives and launches very straight with the welded diff., but its a real pain in the --- to drive in the pits.
If my car would do an even burnout with an open diff, and IF the diff pins would not chew up so fast I wouln't have a welded or spool.
OH, and I also ran a alabama man/Phantom grip type posi with VERY stiff springs..MY expieriance....JUNK!, had to go back to the welded diff.

altered7151
02-24-2006, 01:42 AM
Nice post! Looks like the answer to everyones questions.

Mario
02-24-2006, 03:21 AM
Glad to hear your veering away from welding your diff.


Oh, how I know that. Do you know what it's like trying to build a fast car, while your 21 y/o brother can sink 90% of his income, which is more than your mom's into his Talon? Yeah... always someone faster for sure! :p


Yep. So true. Your words linger in my head every minute of the day. There's always someone out there that's going to out class you.


Beyond that, I'm more bugged by the principle that I can't seem to gain the respect of people, simply because of my cylinder count, and the fact that I encroach and have already a couple of times ruined people's reputation as having "a sick 10 second, off bottle Camaro!" Yeah... that later dyno'd 330 whp off the bottle, and 500 even on it. Good one.


If that's the guy you were telling me about before....he should be shot and killed.

GLHS592
02-24-2006, 08:17 AM
OH, and I also ran a alabama man/Phantom grip type posi with VERY stiff springs..MY expieriance....JUNK!, had to go back to the welded diff.

Warren, can you tell us more. I have one and have only about 10 drag strip passes on it. It's been good so far. Does it wear out fast?

Dave
02-24-2006, 10:35 AM
A quaife/OBX style diff, Torsen(sp?) if I am not mistaken require both axles for it to work from what I have read. If one breaks it stops working. If an axle breaks with a welded diff or a spool, your good alxe keeps pulling .
Can anyone verify if this is true?? I have an OBX for the van and I wasn't really all too concerned with breaking axles, but this fat lady coming out around 12psi "might" break something... good to know that wont be something I have to worry about.

Directconnection
02-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Theory is more than likely entirely wrong here though, so educate me, those with experience.

Aaron Miller

Nothing wrong with theory... even so, we are telling you the possibilities and other's have stepped up with experience and offered to let you drive their cars.
What else do you want to know....

8valves
02-24-2006, 02:12 PM
Nothing wrong with theory... even so, we are telling you the possibilities and other's have stepped up with experience and offered to let you drive their cars.
What else do you want to know....

Oh no, this wasn't intended to sound like nobody has come up with an answer, sorry if it did. It was just an ending to keep people posting and not end the discussion, which it looks like it did!

Warren, thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for to hear out of someone. To me it sounds like it would be doable, but more than likely become bothersome/dangerous at some point, which may not really be worth it in the end.

Thanks to everyones input, it has been duly noted.

Mirage- why even try then? Because it's a challenge. If I wanted to build a cookie cutter fast car I'd have a turbo'd 347 notchback, or a head/cam/n2o LS1 car... but what's the fun in being like everyone else? Having people ask you what kind of car it is and who makes the engine is just too funny to pass up sometimes! :p

Aaron Miller

Directconnection
02-24-2006, 03:42 PM
I'd like to add one thing... after I posted last night about rwd cars losing it into the walls when an axle breaks w/spool... it makes more sense with rwd than fwd. One rwd tire that HOOKS would have a tendency to want to swing the rear around. FWD...no tendency for the rear to come around. Warren's experiences obviously prove this.

glhs875
02-25-2006, 11:17 AM
My recomendation would be to build a CHEAP LSD. You can can have the thrust washers/shims coated with friction material, then get a Ford 7.5 (drop in) or 8.8 (requires minor grinding to fit) WAVE spring which is only around $12.00 straight from Ford, and install it between the side gears. This setup is better than an Alabama man, or PG setup, and will last longer also. The total cost for this setup would would only be around $40.00. It would be tuneable, rebuildable, and would last MANY thousands of miles. And it would be SAFE!!! I have been using one of these WAVE springs for going on 4 years now. No problems at all. And it will still leave TWO black stripes on the road. Iam sure it would work even better with the shims coated, which mine are not. But I plan on having them coated in the near future.

glhs875
02-25-2006, 11:43 AM
Warren, can you tell us more. I have one and have only about 10 drag strip passes on it. It's been good so far. Does it wear out fast?


Trying to apply friction to keep the side gears from moving with only using metal to metal contact isn't goin too work well for very long at all. That's why I suggested having the shims coated with friction material. And the wave spring which is ALOT cheaper than an Alabama Man or PG insert, does the exact same thing as those inserts.

8valves
02-25-2006, 04:39 PM
Wow, I like this quite a bit. Great info! If you have a couple of pictures of that it would be great, but not neccessary. Any chance that the spring could pop out at all? Is there any difference in differential sizing between manuals and autos? Forgive my ignorance on that, I've never been into an a413.

Aaron Miller

GLHS592
02-25-2006, 05:13 PM
Brian, I also would like to see pictures. What kind of shims are you using? How about a part number for that Phord part. ;)

Pat
02-25-2006, 05:57 PM
Can anyone verify if this is true?? I have an OBX for the van and I wasn't really all too concerned with breaking axles, but this fat lady coming out around 12psi "might" break something... good to know that wont be something I have to worry about.

With a torsen style LSD, you need some torque applied to both sides for it to work. If you pop an axle, the van is going to stop moving.

I have a quaife in my 568 and when it was all in the R/T, I popped a few axles last year. End result was that I had to push the car back off the starting line to do the axle swap.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 09:31 AM
Wow, I like this quite a bit. Great info! If you have a couple of pictures of that it would be great, but not neccessary. Any chance that the spring could pop out at all? Is there any difference in differential sizing between manuals and autos? Forgive my ignorance on that, I've never been into an a413.

Aaron Miller

The axles loop through the spring so it can't come out. It will work with an auto or manual Diff.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 09:38 AM
Brian, I also would like to see pictures. What kind of shims are you using? How about a part number for that Phord part. ;)

You could use stock shims and have them coated, or even better yet would be to get some shims with some ears on them so they won't rotate in the diff. housing. I don't have a part #. But just ask for a 8.8" or 7.5" (slightly smaller) wave spring for a Mustang GT diff. (8.8") or Ranger (7.5"). Whenever I sevice my tranny I'll post some pictures.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Brian, I also would like to see pictures. What kind of shims are you using? How about a part number for that Phord part. ;)

I showed Andy the setup when he was getting his Ala. Man insert madeup. He just kinda shrugged his shoulders at it because because he didn't see any money making potential in it.

GLHS592
02-26-2006, 09:43 AM
I guess I'd have to crack a diff. open to see the shims you're talking about. Maybe some of those Mustang knuckleheads on Tennesspeed.net will have a free wave spring. :)

glhs875
02-26-2006, 09:46 AM
I guess I'd have to crack a diff. open to see the shims you're talking about. Maybe some of those Mustang knuckleheads on Tennesspeed.net will have a free wave spring. :)

The shims Iam talking about are the ones that are normally behind the side gears, between the side gears and diff. housing.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 09:59 AM
I would be willing to set up ready to go diff.'s for people for a fair price if there was enough of interest. I modify Sport Compact cars at my house for a living now anyway.

GLHS592
02-26-2006, 10:25 AM
How much? I may get you to make me one up when my AL Man diff. insert quits working.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 10:34 AM
How much? I may get you to make me one up when my AL Man diff. insert quits working.

I would do it for $100.00 plus parts + any shipping costs. I would recommend getting new spider gears if needed, bearings, and also the floating diff. pin bracket. I already know where I can get the shims coated. I would not be able to supply cores, so I would have to build a diff. on an as needed basis.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 10:55 AM
BTW, I set up Kevin Davis' diff that was in his Charger that pulled 1.6 60's and went 7.20's @ 101mph in the 1/8th. It would do good 2 wheel burn outs with slicks. His car could of run even quicker with a torque converter that wasn't slipping too much like his was that we just recently discovered.

turbovanmanČ
02-26-2006, 04:07 PM
I know exactly what your talking about, I used to have a 5.0L Mustang. I have a spare friction disc at work, I can take a pic and post. As for the spring, just image a very spring "N" as thats what it looks like, you have to push this in the diff, in between the spider gears like the inserts, and the friction discs give you the friction to lock the diff. They don't last long of 5.0's but on our little cars, I am sure they would be awesome, and dirt cheap.

glhs875
02-26-2006, 05:31 PM
I know exactly what your talking about, I used to have a 5.0L Mustang. I have a spare friction disc at work, I can take a pic and post. As for the spring, just image a very spring "N" as thats what it looks like, you have to push this in the diff, in between the spider gears like the inserts, and the friction discs give you the friction to lock the diff. They don't last long of 5.0's but on our little cars, I am sure they would be awesome, and dirt cheap.

They seem to last for a long time in the Mustangs I have worked on. I have checked many different 5.0 & 4.6 cars with over 100K on them and it would still take alot of pressure to breakaway one wheel.

tryingbe
02-26-2006, 09:42 PM
My recomendation would be to build a CHEAP LSD.


You know, you can start making these and sell them...

puppet
02-26-2006, 11:34 PM
From some of the descriptions I've read here, Aaron, it sounds a lot like driving a 4X4 pick-up on a dry street. That puts a lot of stress on the transaxle.

The other thing that I'd be concerned about would be turning a responsive car into something that may not be able to get out of it's own way in case somebody screws up in front of you at speed.

glhs875
02-27-2006, 09:17 AM
You know, you can start making these and sell them...

Iam seriously considering doing that. But a complete ready to go diff would be a little pricey. Because I wouldn't sell one without havng all new parts in it for durability reasons. And I would have to charge a core charge also.

altered7151
02-27-2006, 01:17 PM
Iam seriously considering doing that. But a complete ready to go diff would be a little pricey. Because I wouldn't sell one without havng all new parts in it for durability reasons. And I would have to charge a core charge also.


I think it would be a great asset to the board if you could take some pics and do a quick write up. Thats sticky material for sure!

glhs875
02-27-2006, 02:11 PM
I think it would be a great asset to the board if you could take some pics and do a quick write up. Thats sticky material for sure!

When it's time to redo my trans,(who knows?) I will post some pictures with some info on the setup.

8valves
02-27-2006, 05:26 PM
So, visualizing this... you put a shim of some sort (preferably with an anti-friction coating to promote long life, or a friction coating to promote gripping of the spiders) on each side of the spring, utilizing it's outward force to put pressure against the side gears, making them drive together... so a phantom grip or ABman deal without the machined blocks?

"side gear" spring "side gear"
O [NNNNNNNNN] O


Does that make sense if you turn your head sideways, and squint your eyes... :p

Aaron Miller

WVRampage
02-27-2006, 05:34 PM
My recomendation would be to build a CHEAP LSD. You can can have the thrust washers/shims coated with friction material, then get a Ford 7.5 (drop in) or 8.8 (requires minor grinding to fit) WAVE spring which is only around $12.00 straight from Ford, and install it between the side gears. This setup is better than an Alabama man, or PG setup, and will last longer also. The total cost for this setup would would only be around $40.00. It would be tuneable, rebuildable, and would last MANY thousands of miles. And it would be SAFE!!! I have been using one of these WAVE springs for going on 4 years now. No problems at all. And it will still leave TWO black stripes on the road. Iam sure it would work even better with the shims coated, which mine are not. But I plan on having them coated in the near future.

can you post some pictures of this because im gona have my trans out for a clutch soon and thats to easy from the sounds of it to pass up even if it only works for a few passes. where would a person get the trust washers coated.

glhs875
02-27-2006, 10:25 PM
So, visualizing this... you put a shim of some sort (preferably with an anti-friction coating to promote long life, or a friction coating to promote gripping of the spiders) on each side of the spring, utilizing it's outward force to put pressure against the side gears, making them drive together... so a phantom grip or ABman deal without the machined blocks?

"side gear" spring "side gear"
O [NNNNNNNNN] O


Does that make sense if you turn your head sideways, and squint your eyes... :p

Aaron Miller

I'm taking about having them coated to provide friction, but I think they should go on the backside on the side gears just like the original shims do, and have the shim coated on both sides. So that means some material will have to be taken off the side gears with a lathe to compinsate for the added thickness off the friction material. And yes similar to a PG block, but a WHOLE lot cheaper, and with the shims coated, would work way better, and last way longer.

WVRampage
03-02-2006, 12:20 AM
Ordered the spring from ford today. 13.83 I think was the cost.

91DSX
03-02-2006, 12:43 AM
What about using clutches on both sides of the block style posi's, I just bought an awesome unit like this!? That's what I'm putting in my Daytona, I think it will add a whole lot to the torque rating. . .

Hey Aaron did you look into the sway-bar traction trick used by Russ & Dean?

SwiftTech
03-02-2006, 02:14 AM
What about using clutches on both sides of the block style posi's, I just bought an awesome unit like this!? That's what I'm putting in my Daytona, I think it will add a whole lot to the torque rating. . .

Hey Aaron did you look into the sway-bar traction trick used by Russ & Dean?
is that the t trac w/ the clutches?

where would be a good place to get clutches?

glhs875
03-02-2006, 10:35 AM
Ordered the spring from ford today. 13.83 I think was the cost.

If you ordered the 8.8 spring, like I said it will take a little grinding to make it fit. I took the lip off the out side of the 2 side gears where the spring will ride,(also makes it much easier to install), and shortened the 2 smaller spiders gears a little. I used a belt sander. No problem there, as not all of the smaller gear rides on the side gear anyway. And after you are finshished shorten the small gears, bevel the inside of the hole where the material was taken off so the sharp edge doen't cut into the diff. pin. And it is alot easier to use some needle nose type vise grips to compress and hold the spring enough to get it started in between the side gears. Then tap it in place with a hammer. Just don't bang too hard! And don't set the spring up too tight against the 2 smaller spider gears. You need a little clearance there.

WVRampage
03-02-2006, 11:57 AM
If you ordered the 8.8 spring, like I said it will take a little grinding to make it fit. I took the lip off the out side of the 2 side gears where the spring will ride,(also makes it much easier to install), and shortened the 2 smaller spiders gears a little. I used a belt sander. No problem there, as not all of the smaller gear rides on the side gear anyway. And after you are finshished shorten the small gears, bevel the inside of the hole where the material was taken off so the sharp edge doen't cut into the diff. pin. And it is alot easier to use some needle nose type vise grips to compress and hold the spring enough to get it started in between the side gears. Then tap it in place with a hammer. Just don't bang too hard! And don't set the spring up too tight against the 2 smaller spider gears. You need a little clearance there.

Ordered the 7.5

91DSX
03-02-2006, 01:53 PM
is that the t trac w/ the clutches?

where would be a good place to get clutches?

Similar to the t-trac but has higher rate flat style(eliminates binding) springs. The clutches were custom made for the unit, Dave Rose had them built however I bought his last set:o

altered7151
03-05-2006, 01:47 PM
Anyone know where to get the t-trac clutches? I tried looking for them on line but can't find anything.

8valves
03-06-2006, 12:04 PM
UPADTE: After driving Paul V's daytona around the streets by his house yesterday, which this was aon street tires in a G body w/ a power rack, no power steering, and a welded diff in an auto, I have come up with some real world conclusions.

It is entirely possible to drive on the street... if you had power steering and an automatic. Paul's car a RMVB auto and I had too much to think about already trying to keep the car from wandering wherever it wanted to. Turning is very difficult, but possible with the "jab-steer" technique I was so quickly taught by Paul! Make the tires spin when turned to pull the front end over in the direction of the corner and kind of slip wheelspin in and out to turn the car.

The real downside to street driveability, at least without power steering, is manhandling the car while driving straight/slight steering corrections. It's tough even to direct the car around slightly w/o the aid of PS on the road.

In reality, I'm sure I could get used to it and not have it bug me that much, but PS would more than likely be neccessary, which I don't like. Also, I'd be a bit nervous about slow speed emergency movements as I mentioned before I drove it. After driving one I can say I'm still nervous about it, because there is no slow speed emergency movement besides stopping really.

In a nutshell: possible with PS, but still not going to be enjoyable to drive. Without PS I would keep it to track only with super short jaunts around town if you're in the mood, but make sure you're very awake and alert.

Of course, that's in an auto car. In a 5 speed like mine with a super touchy lightweight flywheel and super stiff pressure plate, it's pretty much out of the question, possibly even with PS on the car. It's just way too much to have to deal with just to drive around the streets.

Call this an episode of Mythbusters if you will. A big thanks to Paul Veliky for letting someone sit and BS with them, and then proceed to let them drive their race car around on city streets just to give me some real world experience before making any rash decisions.

Case closed... sort of... :p

Aaron Miller

turbovanmanČ
03-06-2006, 01:17 PM
Thanks Aaron, great job, :nod:

Now to get you a Mythbusters hat or t-shirt, lol!

mrboost
03-06-2006, 08:01 PM
Hey, no problem, it was fun beating on the car a little, haven't done that since fall! I'll have to remember to check the fuel level next time I have someone coming over for a ride though! LOL

Shouldn't it be "Diff-busters"???? :p


Call this an episode of Mythbusters if you will. A big thanks to Paul Veliky for letting someone sit and BS with them, and then proceed to let them drive their race car around on city streets just to give me some real world experience before making any rash decisions.

Case closed... sort of... :p

Aaron Miller

turbovanmanČ
03-06-2006, 10:22 PM
Shouldn't it be "Diff-busters"???? :p


Very Punny, :lol: :D

8valves
03-06-2006, 11:22 PM
Hey, no problem, it was fun beating on the car a little, haven't done that since fall! I'll have to remember to check the fuel level next time I have someone coming over for a ride though! LOL

Shouldn't it be "Diff-busters"???? :p

Yeah, I guess that would make a bit more sense, except that I didn't break anything on the car! Hey, look at it this way, your radiator was the only one I've had in my car in the past year that didn't leak!! And it still doesn't!

Looks like I owe you a drive in a TD with some actual power now come spring. Ohhhh!!!! :lol: Okay, actually your car made me sit and ponder later than night about maybe in the next couple years switching over to an auto... the constant rpm pull is pretty intoxicating. I AM NOT STARTING A DEBATE ON AUTO'S VS MANUALS!!!

Once again, thanks Paul.

Aaron Miller

mrboost
03-07-2006, 12:03 AM
ACTUAL POWER!?!?! Heh! Why you little..... LOL

Yeah, I know I only have 300WHP, don't rub it in! Just imagine that 2nd gear pull with 100 extra horses though, and that'll be what you're up against in the spring. With all the cals and car parts coming to my door lately, the UPS guy is looking a little tired, and for some reason won't stop cussing!

I've been waiting a while for that ride, but I think you better drive, I tend to break other peoples cars for some reason.:confused:

Oh, and there is no debate, autos are better, period. :D :D :D


Yeah, I guess that would make a bit more sense, except that I didn't break anything on the car! Hey, look at it this way, your radiator was the only one I've had in my car in the past year that didn't leak!! And it still doesn't!

Looks like I owe you a drive in a TD with some actual power now come spring. Ohhhh!!!! :lol: Okay, actually your car made me sit and ponder later than night about maybe in the next couple years switching over to an auto... the constant rpm pull is pretty intoxicating. I AM NOT STARTING A DEBATE ON AUTO'S VS MANUALS!!!

Once again, thanks Paul.

Aaron Miller