View Full Version : Anyone ever sprayed alky and N2O together?
1FastCSX289
12-14-2007, 11:43 AM
I am thinking of buying a nitrous kit again......this time for the CSX. Has anyone ever run N20 while spraying alky? I am worried about putting the fogger nozzle in line with the alky nozzle. Will this cause a problem with atomization? If thinking mixing the gas, alky and nitrous together in the IC pipe might be an issue. Anyone?
No problems..... just put a spark plug right before the TB! You'll speed up combustion dramatically!!!!!!!!!!!
(sorry I couldnt resist!)
Aries_Turbo
12-14-2007, 12:23 PM
you prolly want more alky vs water then to prevent freezing.
Brian
It should work fine, but I generally try to avoid running any two nozzles in-line with each other, while it might be just fine, the potential exists for one to mess-up the other's spay pattern. It will be best to run the nitrous closest to the TB with the alky behind it, especially if you do have to run them in-line with each other. If you're running a 50/50 mix of alky and water, you shouldn't have any issues with freezing. Initial research seems to indicate that the alky and nitrous get along very well. We'll have to keep playing with it to determine the final tuning, as it seems like it might like to run leaner and with more timing, seems to slow down combustion. I'll post more when things are further along and I have some hard data to post.
Mike
t3rse
12-14-2007, 01:30 PM
i'd do direct port nitrous with standard alchy if this is what you want.
i'd do direct port nitrous with standard alchy if this is what you want.
If the power level isn't too high (50-60HP), the single nozzle would be the way to go, just because trying to jet 4 nozzles to that level with a base fuel pressure of 50ish PSI is very difficult, hard to get a fuel jet small enough, and if you do, they can plug up way too easy. All that being said, a direct port set-up is a much more precise way to go, especially given the uneven distribution of our stock intakes.
Mike
I spoke with NOS tech support about this very issue for my CSXt. And I was told there is no problem at all running both, you can put either in front of the other, the ONLY stipulation is that he said I should NOT have both "in line" with each other. So I have mine 3" from each other and 90 degrees off set as well. If you give me a phone number I can take a picture with my phone and send it off to you, of my setup.
A recomendation for this as well is you going to want to upgrade your ignition system. If your just running stock with a better coil, that isn't going to cut it. I can run up to 29psi boost OR 22-23 and 60 shot nitrous. Anymore of either and it misfires. Tried spraying a 40 shot on top of 29psi and BOOOOOMM!!!!!!!!!!. Everything survived except for one spark plug and the O2 sensor.
Nick
1FastCSX289
12-15-2007, 12:22 AM
I spoke with NOS tech support about this very issue for my CSXt. And I was told there is no problem at all running both, you can put either in front of the other, the ONLY stipulation is that he said I should NOT have both "in line" with each other. So I have mine 3" from each other and 90 degrees off set as well. If you give me a phone number I can take a picture with my phone and send it off to you, of my setup.
A recomendation for this as well is you going to want to upgrade your ignition system. If your just running stock with a better coil, that isn't going to cut it. I can run up to 29psi boost OR 22-23 and 60 shot nitrous. Anymore of either and it misfires. Tried spraying a 40 shot on top of 29psi and BOOOOOMM!!!!!!!!!!. Everything survived except for one spark plug and the O2 sensor.
Nick
Thanks. good info. im running SDS electronics with DIS ignition, so hopefully that should do.
OnLooker
12-15-2007, 11:03 AM
I was running both in a log car but I ended up unhooking the alcohol and just running the nitrous which picked up .5 sec
BadAssPerformance
12-15-2007, 11:08 AM
I was running both in a log car but I ended up unhooking the alcohol and just running the nitrous which picked up .5 sec
Exactly. No need for alky with nitrous if you are using the alky to cool. If you have enough alky to act as a fuel supplement then there may be some benefit, but since you can just up the fuel jet on the nitrous, it is kind of pointless if you already have thr nitrous system, you really don't need alky... ;)
Now for a dry nitrous system you could use alky as the fuel, this is kind of common, but I'm not a fan of dry kits...
1FastCSX289
12-15-2007, 04:10 PM
Exactly. No need for alky with nitrous if you are using the alky to cool. If you have enough alky to act as a fuel supplement then there may be some benefit, but since you can just up the fuel jet on the nitrous, it is kind of pointless if you already have thr nitrous system, you really don't need alky... ;)
Now for a dry nitrous system you could use alky as the fuel, this is kind of common, but I'm not a fan of dry kits...
Hmmmmm.......Good point.
mech1nxh
12-17-2007, 01:50 AM
Thumping good read Gents,
just to add some " light reading " for you engineer types, I ran across
http://www.noswizard.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=97
Enjoy!
I know the nitrous will help cool the charge A TON!!! Which it does, but on my application, I'm using the ALKY..(blue washer fluid) as an octane booster to allow for increased timing and to be able to run on pump gas. With a Devilsown kit and an M7 nozzle, I can run 8 more degrees of ignition timing on pump gas with NO detonation. Nitrous won't help octane requirements. Now if I was going to run some C16 or equivalent, then yes the Alky would be useless.
1FastCSX289
12-17-2007, 10:24 AM
I know the nitrous will help cool the charge A TON!!! Which it does, but on my application, I'm using the ALKY..(blue washer fluid) as an octane booster to allow for increased timing and to be able to run on pump gas. With a Devilsown kit and an M7 nozzle, I can run 8 more degrees of ignition timing on pump gas with NO detonation. Nitrous won't help octane requirements. Now if I was going to run some C16 or equivalent, then yes the Alky would be useless.
ANother interesting point. This is good. :nod:
mario03SRT
12-17-2007, 10:49 AM
I know the nitrous will help cool the charge A TON!!! Which it does, but on my application, I'm using the ALKY..(blue washer fluid) as an octane booster to allow for increased timing and to be able to run on pump gas. With a Devilsown kit and an M7 nozzle, I can run 8 more degrees of ignition timing on pump gas with NO detonation. Nitrous won't help octane requirements. Now if I was going to run some C16 or equivalent, then yes the Alky would be useless.
Ding-Ding-Ding........we have a winner!
N20 is detonation city and requires a good amount of timing reatrd. Get the best of both worlds and get more HP from your 50-75 shot and save the motor too.
They both can live in complete harmony:D
FYI,
Marion
1FastCSX289
12-17-2007, 01:14 PM
Ding-Ding-Ding........we have a winner!
N20 is detonation city and requires a good amount of timing reatrd. Get the best of both worlds and get more HP from your 50-75 shot and save the motor too.
They both can live in complete harmony:D
FYI,
Marion
I think I might try it. I might just trigger the nitrous off the SDS to run from about 3000 RPM to 4500 RPM just to spool the turbo.....then let the turbo do the work....we'll see. SHould be interesting to try anyways.
1FastCSX289
12-19-2007, 11:12 AM
Just made a paypal deposit on a used NX kit. This should be interesting!
Just made a paypal deposit on a used NX kit. This should be interesting!
Do you have an EGT gauge? I'd be interested to see the differences in temperatures with and without the nitrous while on the water/meth.
By the way, at what temperature does alcohol freeze? My buddy and I were actually talking about this exact thing today. My thoughts were the same as what's been said already - alky is more for boost and timing, the nitrous is for added cooling and combustion.
1FastCSX289
03-30-2008, 08:08 AM
Do you have an EGT gauge? I'd be interested to see the differences in temperatures with and without the nitrous while on the water/meth.
By the way, at what temperature does alcohol freeze? My buddy and I were actually talking about this exact thing today. My thoughts were the same as what's been said already - alky is more for boost and timing, the nitrous is for added cooling and combustion.
I do have an EGT.....havent installed the N2O yet though. Havent had the car on the road since last fall. Its on my "to do" list this summer along with some valvetrain work.
The alky is really just an intercooler, but does add octane to the fuel as well. The nitrous/fuel increases cylinder pressure/combustion just like added boost and delivers further cooling. Should be interesting. Im gonna try and get things together for SDAC this year. We'll see.
BadAssPerformance
03-30-2008, 09:30 AM
It would be an interesting measurement. Technically if properly tuned with and without the nitrous the EGT should be the same. HP is a direct calculation of fuel burned and if the A/F ratio is the same at a given HP level wheter all fuel or nitrous or alky or whatever, the EGT should be the same.
So lets say a car was tuned in each of the 4 options below on a dyno to make 250whp:
gas
gas plus alky
gas plus nitrous
gas plus nitrous plus alky
If they were each tuned at 11.5:1 A/F then the EGT's should be similar.
This is not what you will see doing back to back adding the alky or nitrous tho because the goal is to be additive to the base whp, like gas is 250whp, and lets say the shot adds 50whp to get to 300whp. Now that it is 300whp, technically the EGT would have to be compared to an all gas application making 300whp instead of one making 250whp.
EGTs typically will be very close on or off nitrous when properly tuned, they can be up or down a little, but if they are way off, some aspect of the tune is not "right".
The addition of the H2O/Alky might get interesting.
In theory, some of the fuel injected with the nitrous should be off-set (eliminated) when H2O injection is used, that is due to the fact that a portion of the fuel added with the nitrous is there it act as a coolant in the combustion chamber, but since that's what the H2O is there for, it wouldn't be needed and might contribute to a higher EGT when they are both used at the same time. Timing is another thing that might need to be bumped up as the H2O will slow the burn down. Nitrous accelerates the burn, which is why we need to retard timing when the nitrous is on. This is all on paper, so I'd recommend that you not make any of these adjustments unless you get feedback that indicates it is needed. That is to say, if you find the EGTs going high only when the nitrous and alky are used together, etc. Hope this is more helpful than confusing!
Mike
1FastCSX289
04-01-2008, 08:05 AM
EGTs typically will be very close on or off nitrous when properly tuned, they can be up or down a little, but if they are way off, some aspect of the tune is not "right".
The addition of the H2O/Alky might get interesting.
In theory, some of the fuel injected with the nitrous should be off-set (eliminated) when H2O injection is used, that is due to the fact that a portion of the fuel added with the nitrous is there it act as a coolant in the combustion chamber, but since that's what the H2O is there for, it wouldn't be needed and might contribute to a higher EGT when they are both used at the same time. Timing is another thing that might need to be bumped up as the H2O will slow the burn down. Nitrous accelerates the burn, which is why we need to retard timing when the nitrous is on. This is all on paper, so I'd recommend that you not make any of these adjustments unless you get feedback that indicates it is needed. That is to say, if you find the EGTs going high only when the nitrous and alky are used together, etc. Hope this is more helpful than confusing!
Mike
You are saying that a portion of the fuel that is sprayed in the with the N2O is for cooling? I dont know if I agree with that. The N2O itself adds the intercooling effect......and if that were true (that there is excess fuel for cooling) and it were added with the alky, why would that create higher EGT's? Is it just that the excess fuel being burned in the exhaust?
I understand what youre saying about the timing....im just hoping one effect will cancel the other out. I will pull a couple degrees anyways though.
You are saying that a portion of the fuel that is sprayed in the with the N2O is for cooling? I don't know if I agree with that. The N2O itself adds the intercooling effect......and if that were true (that there is excess fuel for cooling) and it were added with the alky, why would that create higher EGT's? Is it just that the excess fuel being burned in the exhaust?
I understand what you're saying about the timing....im just hoping one effect will cancel the other out. I will pull a couple degrees anyways though.
The extra fuel I mention is used as a coolant in the combustion chamber, not as a charge coolant. It's there to help prevent detonation/preignition. The nitrous does act as an intercooler for the air charge, but the heat it adds in combustion generally cancels out it's effects from the standpoint of detonation/preignition. The higher EGTs I mention would be due to unburnt/excess fuel in the exhaust. I don't have solid data to back up this theory, which is why I recommended sticking with standard tune-ups unless EGTs spike when the nitrous and alky are used together. If they don't change (much) when one or the other is used alone, but spike when they are used together, it would indicate to me that there is too much fuel, and/or the timing is too low. Sorry for any confusion.
Mike
Frank
04-01-2008, 07:59 PM
I agree about spraying N2O after the alky nozzle. Alky is alot harder to evaporate then N2O. This will ensure the alky begins to evaporate. You might still get a little condensation as you rapidly cool the air with the N2O, but it should be less then the other way around. You might want to put the Alky nozzle as far upstream as possible.
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