SRT-4 Caliber Review video

[BadAssPerformance]

I put the actual video in the 'video' forum but thought I'd throw a link to it here for discussion...

Video is here: http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20263

[WVRampage]

I think most of our cars can waste one.I would like to drive one though.

[Reaper1]

That guy is nothing more than a factory salesperson. He knows more about the friggin body kit than the rest of the car!

I for one HATE the new SRT-4, and as I posted before(different forum), I hope it dies a quick, but painful death to teach those idiots not to screw with something good!

[20w/ashelby]

Don't blame SRT for this one. SRT did an amazing job making it what it is. That car is far more than I ever expected out of a caliber.

[Reaper1]

Wow...getting rid of a perfectly good LSD for a laughably ineffective electronic gizmo that uses the brakes to gain traction(this only works "OK" in a straight line), installing a crappy 6-speed tranny in place of a beefier 5-speed, installing heavier brakes that are both not needed and not very effective...the list goes on and on...yeah, don't blame SRT. OK. I won't. I'll blame Chrysler. That car SUCKS!!! It sucked before it hit the showroom floors, it sucks now, it's gonna suck once it finally dies and is hopefully replaced by something MUCH better. That is if Chrysler survives the new ownership, which truthfully I don't see happening. At least not as the Chrysler we know right now.

The Caliber is too heavy, too big, and too much of a smoke and mirrors show. It doesn't fit the compact car class that the car it replaced was niched in. It's too fat to make a real performance car out of it. It's FUGLY to the bone. It's quality sucks. You couldn't GIVE one to me!! I'd sell the d@mn thing and buy something else...and it wouldn't be a Chrysler product! That's right, I'd jump ship right now if I were to buy a new car.

I'm sorry, I just HATE this car....

[8valves]

Wow...getting rid of a perfectly good LSD for a laughably ineffective electronic gizmo that uses the brakes to gain traction(this only works "OK" in a straight line), installing a crappy 6-speed tranny in place of a beefier 5-speed, installing heavier brakes that are both not needed and not very effective...the list goes on and on...yeah, don't blame SRT. OK. I won't. I'll blame Chrysler. That car SUCKS!!! It sucked before it hit the showroom floors, it sucks now, it's gonna suck once it finally dies and is hopefully replaced by something MUCH better. That is if Chrysler survives the new ownership, which truthfully I don't see happening. At least not as the Chrysler we know right now.

The Caliber is too heavy, too big, and too much of a smoke and mirrors show. It doesn't fit the compact car class that the car it replaced was niched in. It's too fat to make a real performance car out of it. It's FUGLY to the bone. It's quality sucks. You couldn't GIVE one to me!! I'd sell the d@mn thing and buy something else...and it wouldn't be a Chrysler product! That's right, I'd jump ship right now if I were to buy a new car.

I'm sorry, I just HATE this car....

From this I would conclude that you're not a business person.

Why pay to have a different transmission (5 vs 6 speed) when the 6 speed is readily available, just as the previous piece USED to be.

Why spend money on an expensive LSD when the electronic setup can be utilized from the other vehicles that the system has already been developed on?

If you don't take that into consideration, or you say that those are "stupid" reasons, then you TRULY won't ever see Chrysler, or any other manufacturer, make any progress or profit.

[Aries_Turbo]

i wish they had some in car vids on the track. there is another vid on the track.

i do wish they had another small car like the neon. this is the first lineup of cars since 1978 that chrysler doesnt have a true small car to hop up. it sucks.

Brian

[contraption22]

One sentence.

"Let's use the brakes to improve acceleration."

[moparzrule]

''very aggressive look in the back''

Thats the one that gets me, looks like a family sedan in the back to me.

[iTurbo]

If I had a better job I would buy one. I drive an Omni, Lancer, and Spirit so it's not like looks are a top priority for me anyway.

Can you imagine running away from a new Mustang GT in a Caliber of all things.....ouch....sound familiar anyone?

[WVRampage]

I like when they said the back is what most people will see of it,should have said unless you are in the old SRT-4 or any turbo car from the previous era.

[BadAssPerformance]

One sentence.

"Let's use the brakes to improve acceleration."

Did or did not Alan's rental 300 Hemi spin both tires? :thumb:

[cordes]

Let's face it, I am sure that any true car guy would not use the caliber to start with if they had the choice. I do agree with Aaron though when he speaks of the buisiness side of the equasion.

I don't think they could sell more than 1K cars/year that the average guy on this site would put together. There is just not a market for it.

[BadAssPerformance]

I think they need to enter it into WRC :thumb:

[GLHS592]

That's why I drive 20 year old cars.

[contraption22]

I think they need to enter it into WRC :thumb:

Yeah! that way we can all get to see what the underside of one looks like!

[moparzrule]

That's why I drive 20 year old cars.

ehh, no car payment is why I do LOL :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah! that way we can all get to see what the underside of one looks like!

And driving thru a herd of villagers too!

[20w/ashelby]

You wanna bash Chrysler for making changes people hate at first? Give back your TM's. If the K-car can save the company, give their new ideas a chance. Besides, for 22K what can beat it?

[Aries_Turbo]

if small cars are what saved them from destruction, why are they making only big crap again? WTF?

Brian

[WVRampage]

Base crapbur runs worst than the K car.

[SpoolinGLH]

ehh, no car payment is why I do LOL :thumb:


My GLH would out handle,blow it away in the 1/4 mile and brake faster, AND get better gas mileage!!! :thumb:

[shelbydave]

This is kinda late... The SRT is the ONLY caliber I would own. simply because of the power. I don't know about performance, but I rented one this summer, and ANY car that needs to downshift to maintain 70 on I77 (in Ohio) needs more power. I also hate the CVT. I can still feel it shift, it's accelaration is nonexistent, and I spent most of the time using Autostick just to keep from being annoyed out of my mind.

I've started looking at the HHR again...

[Ondonti]

From this I would conclude that you're not a business person.

Why pay to have a different transmission (5 vs 6 speed) when the 6 speed is readily available, just as the previous piece USED to be.

Why spend money on an expensive LSD when the electronic setup can be utilized from the other vehicles that the system has already been developed on?

If you don't take that into consideration, or you say that those are "stupid" reasons, then you TRULY won't ever see Chrysler, or any other manufacturer, make any progress or profit.

But this type of car is usually a car that MOST companies take a loss on in order to build excitement for their platform........Thats where you decided its worth losing a few million in order to make your platform more exciting and hopefully sell more base models.

[The Pope]

the Evo uses a 5 speed manual on the cheap version, the 6 speed manual is only for the dodge and has Getrag gears. They should have put in a helical posi but got cheap and added the brake system chrysler designed for the new Evo. And yes the Evo drivetrain is American and designed here, but Americans think American designed stuff is inferrior to Japans. Americans think we are behind them in tech, which is BS. So the world platform was built here and played off as some asian piece. So now the Evo has an American drivetrain that uses the brake system for traction. Must work though, the mushy soft new Evo stomps the old one on a road course. The SRT 4 was supposed to cost $28,500 and have 300 HP. They couldn't have it compete in the text with the Evo costing nearly 10G more so they lowered the price. Soon your going to see a lot of 2.4 SRT swaps into Evos once the Japan loving fools catch wind. O yeah there real advanced, thats why they make all our CPUs right? LMAO, even CHINA has a space program ahead of Japan which has NO space program. The SRT 4 is the new GT PT Cruizer replacement, not the Neon SRT 4 replacement. Drive them both and I think they did a good job replacing the GT, but it'll never be a light weight race car like a Neon can be.

[gti_7]

The SRT 4 is the new GT PT Cruizer replacement, not the Neon SRT 4 replacement. Drive them both and I think they did a good job replacing the GT, but it'll never be a light weight race car like a Neon can be.

Finally! someone gets it! i was getting tired of the neon based srt4 comparisons. People forget the number in the SRT designation refers to the number of cylinders and that the name "srt4" was not specific to the neon, but to any performance model with 4 cylinders :)

I read the edmunds.com review of the caliber srt4. 280hp@the wheels on a dynojet. runs a low 14 second 1/4 mile at 103mph. its decent performance for the white collar office guru or individual that needs a practical car, but longs for decent performance. the PT GT was a nice ride, hella quick for what is was designed for. The Caliber builds on it, with even more power :)

bernie

[8valves]

But this type of car is usually a car that MOST companies take a loss on in order to build excitement for their platform........Thats where you decided its worth losing a few million in order to make your platform more exciting and hopefully sell more base models.


You think Chrysler loses money on SRT models? You're right in your thinking... but they're not losing money. You should see the internal changes at Chrysler now so that anything that's not profitable isn't there.

[monkeyhead]

ehh, no car payment is why I do LOL :thumb:

hahahahaha yes.:thumb:

[slowbrokedodge]

The only question I have is why cant chrysler make a quality sport compact for a good price, Mazda can do it with the mazdaspeed3 and its has a LSD factory, not to mention it has some quality control. I am not impressed with the new srt4, or chrysler corporation in gereral.

[Aries_Turbo]

they did it with the original SRT-4. unfortunately they dropped the ball some on this one. plus they dont have a small car right now unfortunately.

Brian

[gti_7]

You guys are really harsh towards Chrysler and the new Caliber Srt4. Chrysler has been given a very raw deal with its parent company Diamler. With the hostile take over, Diamler draining Chrysler's earnings for Diamlers projects and model line growth to the bitter casting of Chrysler off at near death. If you see the caliber srt4 in person its a lot better in person that it comes across in picture. I give a lot of credit to the people at SRT for the work they did to the Caliber to make it what it is. This is a group of people like to folks at SVT who have to make something with very little money as the car they produce has to be very aggressively priced. This is the same electronic lsd that a lot of high end marques have, but no one seems to be chewing them out for it.

Cadillac was a lower costing alternative to the euro and asian imports, and people thought, if it costs less, its not as good. So Cadillac raised their prices and have sold more products than they ever have. Not to mention the old mantra that American cars are unreliable and junk, but J.D power proves otherwise.

Basically the new SRT4 is not to replace original srt4. Nor is it an evolution of the original. The [4] in SRT as you know refers to the number of cylinders of the motor and is not specific to the Neon based SRT4.

As the Pope mentioned, its like the PT GT. People complain the base PT has no power, so they gave it power :clap:

The caliber SRT is not for the SRT neon based demographic.. its for the former SRT4 neon based owner who has a child or two now, or wants something with more versatility and doesnt want a jarring ride, but wants the performance. 280whp is proof this car has potential. Looks and appreciation of looks are subjective.

Much like the original srt4, there was a lot of hate for it, no one gave it a chance, but it proved it self. Now it has "cred". I really suggest you take a look at it in person and give it a chance. There is more to it than what it has or doesn't on paper..

bernie

[Reaper1]

I've seen them in person...STILL hate it. I can't wait to find one on the street or track...that should be FUN!! :D

[Aries_Turbo]

i cant wait to see it on the street with my turbo k car. ive decimated the original SRT on the street (stock and mildly modded) and I will do it to this one too. ;) I do like the original SRT and I do like that dodge is continuing to make some pretty high powered cars but I feel that this one doesnt have as strong of a market as the original SRT did. you cant make a lesser car when the first one was so good. its foolish business.

Brian

[sherm1123]

I've seen them in person...STILL hate it. I can't wait to find one on the street or track...that should be FUN!! :D

So have you found one yet? There are several in your area now. May I ask what you drive? It wasn't listed in your profile...

[sherm1123]

My GLH would out handle,blow it away in the 1/4 mile and brake faster, AND get better gas mileage!!! :thumb:


So what mods are on your car that you think make it handle better than a 20 year newer model designed by the SRT engineers? What are your 1/4 mile times? What were the stock GLH-T 1/4 mile times? Your braking times? Your gas milage? What numbers are using for this comparison?

[Reaper1]

Nope...I STILL have not seen one on the road here. The ONLY one I've seen was driven down from Canada a few months ago when we had a small TD meet down here...they happened to be on vacation here and stopped in.

I personally drive an '88 Daytona Shelby Z. It puts down 210hp, 291tq at the wheels. Best time to date at the track is a 14.5@100mph. That was before my aluminum flywheel, 6-puck ceramic clutch, newly built A555/A520 hybird w/OBX LSD. With good traction it's a 13 second car.

Suspension mods are Koni's and Eibacks all around. It also has 11" discs w/Porterfeild pads on all 4 corners.

Oh, AND it gets 27mph in the city, 30mpg on the highway. It'll get better when I tune the fuel a bit more in a few weeks...

If that car doesn't do it, Charlotte surely will once she's going again! ;)

[sherm1123]

Nope...I STILL have not seen one on the road here. The ONLY one I've seen was driven down from Canada a few months ago when we had a small TD meet down here...they happened to be on vacation here and stopped in.

I personally drive an '88 Daytona Shelby Z. It puts down 210hp, 291tq at the wheels. Best time to date at the track is a 14.5@100mph. That was before my aluminum flywheel, 6-puck ceramic clutch, newly built A555/A520 hybird w/OBX LSD. With good traction it's a 13 second car.

Suspension mods are Koni's and Eibacks all around. It also has 11" discs w/Porterfeild pads on all 4 corners.

Oh, AND it gets 27mph in the city, 30mpg on the highway. It'll get better when I tune the fuel a bit more in a few weeks...

If that car doesn't do it, Charlotte surely will once she's going again! ;)

Nice ride! What color? I loved my 87 Shelby Z. I was running 260HP. It was very fast in a straight line!

Good luck at the track! Hopefully the mods will get you where you want to be.

Your HP is in the CSRT neighboorhood now and hopefully your 1/4 mile times will be too. My gas milage is a little better 27/31-better if I stay out of the turbo. Handleing wise, the CSRT has you beat by a long shot. When you get a chance, drive one. I'm guessing you will be surprised!

[cordes]

So what mods are on your car that you think make it handle better than a 20 year newer model designed by the SRT engineers? What are your 1/4 mile times? What were the stock GLH-T 1/4 mile times? Your braking times? Your gas milage? What numbers are using for this comparison?

I don't claim to have any actual answers here, but I would think that the stock GLHs would out handle a SRT-4 Caliber due to the fact that they weighed about a thousand lbs. less. I don't have that much done to my GLHT suspension wise, but I doubt that a Caliber could hang with me in the turns to say the least.

[sherm1123]

I don't claim to have any actual answers here, but I would think that the stock GLHs would out handle a SRT-4 Caliber due to the fact that they weighed about a thousand lbs. less. I don't have that much done to my GLHT suspension wise, but I doubt that a Caliber could hang with me in the turns to say the least.

I guess if weight was the only factor to take into consideration when comparing handleing ability, you might be right. But then again using that theory your GLHS would out handle all of the cars designed by the SRT team including the Viper. I've driven both, the GLHS (and most other 80's and 90's Dodge Turbo cars) and the CSRT, and there is no comparison to the handleing of the CSRT. Of course this is just my opinion. I'll let you complete yours once you have driven the CSRT.

[cordes]

I guess if weight was the only factor to take into consideration when comparing handleing ability, you might be right. But then again using that theory your GLHS would out handle all of the cars designed by the SRT team including the Viper. I've driven both, the GLHS (and most other 80's and 90's Dodge Turbo cars) and the CSRT, and there is no comparison to the handleing of the CSRT. Of course this is just my opinion. I'll let you complete yours once you have driven the CSRT.

I will have to test drive one now and report back. The sales guy is going to be super pissed when I try and see how easy it is to get it up on two wheels for a comparison though.

[sherm1123]

I will have to test drive one now and report back. The sales guy is going to be super pissed when I try and see how easy it is to get it up on two wheels for a comparison though.

Don't worry, it won't go onto two wheels! It's a bit more balanced than its ancestors from 20 years ago. Have fun and report back what you think.

[Aries_Turbo]

there is no way a caliber outhandles an omni with konis, stiffer springs and aftermarket anti sway bars. i doubt it can outhandle my kcar with konis/eibachs, largest factory bar from a GTC front and rear, and upgraded bushings in the 1990 k frame. no way. its just to lardish and tall.

Brian

[sherm1123]

there is no way a caliber outhandles an omni with konis, stiffer springs and aftermarket anti sway bars. i doubt it can outhandle my kcar with konis/eibachs, largest factory bar from a GTC front and rear, and upgraded bushings in the 1990 k frame. no way. its just to lardish and tall.

Brian

Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if its not based in reality.

[BadAssPerformance]

Stock GLHT vs. Stock CSRT... would be interesting, the GLH has about a 700lb advantage and the CSRT has a better suspension design.

[Aries_Turbo]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if its not based in reality.

it is based in reality. light cars handle better than heavy ones given similar tire sizes even if the suspension is older. cars with lower center of gravity handle better as well and we all know that the caliber is tall.

Brian

[sherm1123]

it is based in reality. light cars handle better than heavy ones given similar tire sizes even if the suspension is older. cars with lower center of gravity handle better as well and we all know that the caliber is tall.

Brian

So do the Neon SRT's handle well? Better than a GLHS? The CSRT is only few inches taller than the NSRT. When they are side by side you don't even notice the CSRT being taller. I measured for you. At the tallest point the CSRT is less than 5ft tall. The stock tires are 225/45 R19's and the wheels are 7.5 inches wide. The CSRT is built for the track- both the drag strip and the road course. I would reserve your judgement until you have at least driven one on the street. I'm guessing you will be very surprised.

[contraption22]

it is based in reality. light cars handle better than heavy ones given similar tire sizes even if the suspension is older. cars with lower center of gravity handle better as well and we all know that the caliber is tall.

Brian

I don't think it is such a matter of it being actually taller persay, but the CG is definitely higher.

I know the caliber will handle well compared to other compact sport-utes, but I do not think we will see any in the Speed World Challenge replacing the Neons.

[slowbrokedodge]

I will admit that dodge did a good job once again of making there cars go in a straight line, (after driving one) like the old muscle cars, but quality compared to other vehicles in its class and price range isnt that good, handling needs some work but better than the regular caliaber, it has something to be desiried over all.

[sherm1123]

I will admit that dodge did a good job once again of making there cars go in a straight line, (after driving one) like the old muscle cars, but quality compared to other vehicles in its class and price range isnt that good, handling needs some work but better than the regular caliaber, it has something to be desiried over all.


So what cars in the $20,000 -$25,000 price range do you find superior to the CSRT4? What would you do differently; what is the "something you still desire" that you would want the car to have? Have you driven one yet?

[slowbrokedodge]

yes I drove a CSRT-4 hence my statement, and to answer your question, I felt the mazdaspeed3 is better overall thats why I baught one those for my other car.

[sherm1123]

yes I drove a CSRT-4 hence my statement, and to answer your question, I felt the mazdaspeed3 is better overall thats why I baught one those for my other car.

So what about the Mazda do you like better?

[t3rse]

So what cars in the $20,000 -$25,000 price range do you find superior to the CSRT4? What would you do differently; what is the "something you still desire" that you would want the car to have? Have you driven one yet?

How about a 500 # diet and RWD.

[slowbrokedodge]

How about a 500 # diet and RWD.

+1 on that statement, heck I would be happy with just the rear drive. And as far as what I thought was better with the mazda, overall quality (fit and finish), better handling, and oh yeah the biggest thing an LSD.

[sherm1123]

How about a 500 # diet and RWD.

For RWD you'll have to look at the Charger or Challenger, but they are both in the next price range up. I can't think of any RWD/AWD car in the $20K range. I for one, don't miss anything about RWD vehicles...

If you give the Caliber a 500 pound diet you would loose all of the great suspension parts and the limited fit and finish that is already being complained about from the BMW set... I also own a Mazda 3, and the fit and finish on it is no better than the Caliber in my opinion.

[sherm1123]

+1 on that statement, heck I would be happy with just the rear drive. And as far as what I thought was better with the mazda, overall quality (fit and finish), better handling, and oh yeah the biggest thing an LSD.


If RWD was what you were looking for, why did you choose the Mazda as it is also FWD? Do you have any examples of where you feel the Mazda is superior in fit and finish- seats, instrumentation, paint etc? How much did the Mazda run you? My CSRT was $21,200. I can't comment on the LSD, as none of the FWD cars I have owned have had it. Either it hasn't been a problem, or I just don't know what I'm missing. :D From what I have heard/read, most people have been comparing the CSRT and MS3 about the same on handling. I guess I will have to go test drive one and form my own opinion. Thanks for your comments.

[slowbrokedodge]

I have had many RWD vehicles and I like the driving dynamics of them alot better than FWD, and in very comparson test the CSRT-4 has been getting killed by everything, http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6293 just one example, but twards the end they said this (To me, this car is a step in the wrong direction, and I say bring back the Neon! Clearly the Mazdaspeed3 has little to fear from an SRT4 Caliber.) I aplaude dodge for even building this and dont get me wrong I am not against it at all, just dont think it was there best effort.

[WVRampage]

I have yet to see one and I work at a dodge dealer,We will not be geting one from what I hear unless one is ordered for some one.I think the world engine will be a good engine over all but theres also alot I dont like about it,With the CVT in the base cars it sounds like an ATV.The calibur overall is not something I was pleased with when I first test drove the R/T,It did like the turns though.

[t3rse]

For RWD you'll have to look at the Charger or Challenger, but they are both in the next price range up. I can't think of any RWD/AWD car in the $20K range. I for one, don't miss anything about RWD vehicles...

If you give the Caliber a 500 pound diet you would loose all of the great suspension parts and the limited fit and finish that is already being complained about from the BMW set... I also own a Mazda 3, and the fit and finish on it is no better than the Caliber in my opinion.

I'm not a brand loyalist, and I will never own either of those obese cars.

The caliber is great for people like you that will never touch the car and want something with all the amenities and still has some grunt. For me, I want a purist performance machine without all the BS and extra mass. I don't need a radio and I sure don't need a fridge in the console, and I think many of the people who will butt heads with you on their opinion of this vehicle feel the same as me: that the caliber is not a performance machine but more of luxury vehicle with performance as an afterthought.

The CSRT doesn't have the potential of the neon. I don't think we'll be seeing a caliber running 10s anytime soon.

[contraption22]

I aplaude dodge for even building this and dont get me wrong I am not against it at all, just dont think it was there best effort.

I only will differ with your opinion as far as saying this... I think SRT did a fantastic job..... given what they had to work with. The big mistake here is not by SRT, but by Chrysler eliminating the small car program.

[sherm1123]

I'm not a brand loyalist, and I will never own either of those obese cars.

The caliber is great for people like you that will never touch the car and want something with all the amenities and still has some grunt. For me, I want a purist performance machine without all the BS and extra mass. I don't need a radio and I sure don't need a fridge in the console, and I think many of the people who will butt heads with you on their opinion of this vehicle feel the same as me: that the caliber is not a performance machine but more of luxury vehicle with performance as an afterthought.

The CSRT doesn't have the potential of the neon. I don't think we'll be seeing a caliber running 10s anytime soon.

I absolutely agree with you that all of the SRT cars are an "after thought". They do take an existing car and make it into a performance car. I don't agree that any Caliber, the SRT4 included, is anything even remotely close to a luxury car. Like the Neon before it, it is a base model with a utilitarian purpose. My CSRT, just like my NSRT before it, has no options. The SRT package is all I want or need, just as it was designed- bang for the buck.

I'm not sure what you mean by "never touch the car". As you can see from my signature I have owned performance cars for several decades and always have and always will work on my own vehicles. Just because I don't want to work on them everyday, and appreciate a daily driver that is fun AND reliable, does not mean that I don't enjoy working on, or am not capable of working on any car I own.

I do enjoy the standard cruise control and rear power windows though.:D

As far as 10's are concerned, I'm sure they will happen as 12's with all stock internals have already happened with the CSRT and the mods have barely even started. The engine on the CSRT is much beefier and has the potential for substantially more HP than the NSRT.

So what kind of turbo-mopar "purist performance machine" do you drive?

[sherm1123]

I have yet to see one and I work at a dodge dealer,We will not be geting one from what I hear unless one is ordered for some one.I think the world engine will be a good engine over all but theres also alot I dont like about it,With the CVT in the base cars it sounds like an ATV.The calibur overall is not something I was pleased with when I first test drove the R/T,It did like the turns though.

The CSRT doesn't use the CVT. It comes standard with a Getrag 6-speed. If you liked the handling of the R/T you should really try the SRT!

[Reaper1]

Umm...the CSRT has a beefier engine?! Umm...all I have to say is aluminum block with an OPEN DECK! Can you say Honda?! Hardly the empitomy of beefiness....

Here's a video video for ya!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oL0GXubQCk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oL0GXubQCk&feature=related

[t3rse]

The engine on the CSRT is much beefier and has the potential for substantially more HP than the NSRT.


Uhhh....no. no way in hell. I don't want to dive into why but you need to do some research and stop listening to con artists like DCR.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, and the CSRT is a decent utilitarian vehicle, but it is slower than its predecessor in every way, with more computer interference and power to boot.

You are still missing my point though. I won't have one because I have a turd honda that gets 35 mpg, a fast omni, slow corvette, nice 88 BMW and a great 78 c10 pickup. For the money that you spent on the caliber, I could buy 10 more omnis and make them all faster. Hell, I could buy two viper motors, or even 1 turd viper. That's just me though. I don't buy anything anywhere close to new because I understand what it is really worth, and my turd honda will probably out live it anyways. Hell, my first turd has 310k on it before it was killed by a mustang, literally.

[contraption22]

I'm not a brand loyalist, and I will never own either of those obese cars.

The caliber is great for people like you that will never touch the car and want something with all the amenities and still has some grunt. For me, I want a purist performance machine without all the BS and extra mass. I don't need a radio and I sure don't need a fridge in the console, and I think many of the people who will butt heads with you on their opinion of this vehicle feel the same as me: that the caliber is not a performance machine but more of luxury vehicle with performance as an afterthought.

The CSRT doesn't have the potential of the neon. I don't think we'll be seeing a caliber running 10s anytime soon.



I agree with you on forgoeing ammenities for the benefit of performance, although I admit, I wish my Neon SRT-4 had cruise control. As far as the "fridge in the console", don't make too big of a deal about that. On the Caliber it is simply an AC vent blowing into the glove compartment. If you put a warm soda in there at the beginning of your journey, it will be only slightly less warm at the end lol.

That being said... I have no doubt somebody will be able to get one of these into the 10's. Afterall, we already have seen 8v Minivans in the 11's. I think we have all learned if you throw enough boost and/or nitrous at anything get it to hold together for a few passes, you can go pretty damned fast.

[sherm1123]

Uhhh....no. no way in hell. I don't want to dive into why but you need to do some research and stop listening to con artists like DCR.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, and the CSRT is a decent utilitarian vehicle, but it is slower than its predecessor in every way, with more computer interference and power to boot.

You are still missing my point though. I won't have one because I have a turd honda that gets 35 mpg, a fast omni, slow corvette, nice 88 BMW and a great 78 c10 pickup. For the money that you spent on the caliber, I could buy 10 more omnis and make them all faster. Hell, I could buy two viper motors, or even 1 turd viper. That's just me though. I don't buy anything anywhere close to new because I understand what it is really worth, and my turd honda will probably out live it anyways. Hell, my first turd has 310k on it before it was killed by a mustang, literally.

My stock NSRT produced 230HP my stock CSRT produces 285HP. There is no doubt that more HP can be produced from the new 2.4 over the NSRT engine. The CSRT stage kits are going to consist of injectors and tuning. The internals and turbo are good for 400+hp.

As far as MPG goes, I get 30+ on the hwy and am averaging 27 with the CSRT.

I'm not sure where you buy cars, but please do let me know where I can pick up a Viper for the $21,200 I paid for my CSRT!:D

I understand the concept of buying older cars and using them for transportation, but the fact that you can buy 10 Omni's for the price of a new CSRT, doesn't make it less of a car or the Omni more of one. It also doesn't replace the enjoyment I receive from driving my car. As a car enthusiast I would think you would understand that. If it was all about saving money, we would all just walk.

[sherm1123]

Umm...the CSRT has a beefier engine?! Umm...all I have to say is aluminum block with an OPEN DECK! Can you say Honda?! Hardly the empitomy of beefiness....

Here's a video video for ya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oL0GXubQCk&feature=related

Sorry, can't watch the video at work. I'll have to comment on it later.

Here's a quote from allpar.com :

"The Dodge Caliber SRT4 concept car is capable of a 0-60 mph time in less than six seconds. “The 2.4-liter turbocharged World Engine delivers a level of power you’d expect from a V-8. With the engine in the 2007 Dodge Caliber SRT4, we were able to take advantage of tried-and-true performance improvements, such as increased cylinder-head flow and higher compression ratio, as well as newer technologies such as Variable Valve Timing (VVT),” said Pete Gladysz, Senior Manager – Powertrain, SRT. The 4.7 V8, even in High Output form, produces less power than this engine.

The aluminum 2.4-liter World Engine block was specially machined for increased water and oil flow. Unique cast pistons travel within iron cylinder liners, and are cooled by oil squirters and affixed to forged connecting rods for high-revving reliability.

Tri-metal bearings are used for the connecting rods and crankshaft for high-performance durability. A unique oil pump/balance shaft module keeps the reciprocating assembly well-lubricated and running smoothly. An external cooler keeps oil temperatures within a safe range.

The aluminum cylinder head is equipped with unique high-temperature exhaust valves. VVT uses computer mapping to open and close intake and exhaust valves at optimal points for efficient combustion and flow. The camshaft and micro-alloy steel crankshaft, shared with the non-turbocharged 2.4-liter World Engine, are fully capable of high-horsepower loads."

Sounds pretty beefy to me and I know what it feels like when I put my foot into it...

[sherm1123]

I have had many RWD vehicles and I like the driving dynamics of them alot better than FWD, and in very comparson test the CSRT-4 has been getting killed by everything, http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6293 just one example, but twards the end they said this (To me, this car is a step in the wrong direction, and I say bring back the Neon! Clearly the Mazdaspeed3 has little to fear from an SRT4 Caliber.) I aplaude dodge for even building this and dont get me wrong I am not against it at all, just dont think it was there best effort.

Here's another point of view:

http://www.autoreviewsonline.com/testdrives/2008/review/?article=041611205

[contraption22]

Several vendors have already developed cylinder braces for the World Engine to slide into the water jacket because of concerns with the structural stability of the block under high loads.

I'm sure companies like Darton will also be develping products for it if demand arises. They've been helping weak engines do amazing things.

[Reaper1]

That is nothing more than simple specs and a sales pitch probably derrived from a press release by Chryser.

The fact that the NSRT engine produces less power in stock form than the CSRT means jack. A Honda H22 puts out more power than a TBI 8v too...guess which one can ultimatly make more power? I'll give you a hint...I've never seen a H22 put down the numbers that Stephan has....

Let's see..the above article states: if you put enough boost in a small engine, you can make more power than a larger one. We already knew that.

VVT is there for emissions and fuel economy, not performance. Dodge has had the capability to use variable cam phasing since the early 90's. They never used it until now becuase it wasn't needed!

The block was specially machined...wow...can you say cross drilling? There's nothing "special" about machining a block to help it live under boost conditions. Sales hype..next...

Unique cast pistons: read, they are dished and probably have steel struts in the skirts to aid with thermal expansion rates...been done for years...next...

Iron cylinder liners: well...I hope so! Aluminum wouldn't work very well as a cylinder bore with steel rings sliding up and down on it. This isn't a surprise...next..

Oil squirters...again, nothing new. Hell our 8v engines have them, but simply built in to the rod.

Forged connecting rods...yippie! Finally something that is becoming less and less common, but not out of the ordinary.

Tri-metal bearings....read Clevite 77. I use those in my engines too. Good bearings. I don't know why they feel this is so special though.

oil pump/balance shaft MODULE: read gonna be interesing to see if you can eliminate the balance shafts! Oh goody...they just made it more of a challenge to fee up some power. Sad face.

External oil cooler keeps oil temperatures within a safe range: well... the euro versions of the TD's got these, The R/T's were SUPPOSED to have gotten them, I'm fairly positive the NSRT has one. It makes sense, at least they didn't skimp on it. It doens't help make power though...it helps the engine live longer. *Shrug* If they couldn't keep the temperatures within a safe range without it, then there is obviously something going on there..either the engine is being stressed more than it can handle or the cooling system isn't up to the task....hmmm....

Unique high-temperature exhaust valves: read inconel. Our old TD's have these too. No big surprise there...next...

Once again VVT is brought up. Take a good look at the sentece: "VVT uses computer mapping to open and close intake and exhaust valves at optimal points for efficient combustion and flow." Efficient combustion means emissions. Flow does help with power, but more importantly with torque, which is in the lower rev range. I don't see a major advantage. Just by pure speculation, I'm guessing really one of the only reasons the turbo version of the World Engine has this system is becuase the non-turbo versions have it as well as the smaller versions of it. Parts bin stuff. Honda's that actually make a lot of power with boost usually disable their system....hmmm....

The cam and crank are shared with the non-turbo engine: read parts bin stuff again. There was a reason those parts were chosen for the non-turbo engines as well. If they could have gotten by with lesser parts in those engines they would have!

I would LOVE to know where you got the info about the upgrade packages. To my knowledge Chrysler does not have, and has no plans to release true "stage" kits like they did for the NSRT. If you are reffering to aftermarket, that's fine, but it's not backed by Chrysler, nor devleoped by them as the previous kits were. They felt that they could add the power they did with those kits safely and relabiably without too much threat to the drivetrain. I'm fairly certain that if they felt the same way about this car that they would have done something.

Also, that 6-speed gearbox has a history of being, how shall I put this?...not that strong with a lot of power. The first use for it was in the SVT Focus. Those things would break that tranny and they didn't even come close to the power the Speed3 or CSRT makes. I'm willing to bet that even if the internals were upgraded over time, that if the torque limiting properties of the stock computer are somehow overridden that eventually there will be tranny guts all over the ground.

[Reaper1]

I just read that review...all I have to say is what in the world do they usually make that guy drive?!

I love all the technical bobbles..."..uses a large turbo ..". WTF?! Wow...that turbo is only slightly larger than our Mitsu. Granted it is more efficient, but I think "large" is a realitive term here...large compared to WHAT?!

".. a ported and polished head". This is complete news to me! Since when was is cost effective to do this? Honda did it on the Type R Integra, but they knew that they weren't going to sell that many, so it wasn't a big deal..that was factored in to the price of the car, which at the time sold for a "premium"...unlike this car that is SUPPOSED to be a "bang for the buck" car. Until I see proof this is done..I have a BS flag I'ma wave. Oh, and it's been proven that a lot of the heads that are on Type R Integras weren't ported correctly and it takes considerable work to make the "right" again...

"..a set of headers.."...wow really!? I didn't know that you could call a manifold/exhaust housing a header. FAIL.

The tranny is the SAME design as the Speed3. MAYBE the gear ratios are different, and the bellhousing is clearly going to be different, but come on...it's the SAME tranny!

I love the launch strategy..this'll get you good 60' times: "Let the car get up to around 15 km/h in a reasonably mellow fashion and then gun it...". This is so the car doesn't pull with torque steer when you launch it hard. Hmm...isn't the "brake posi" supposed to take care of that? Anyways, this guy needs to stop being such a panzy and learn how to drive!

With all that being said...I dunno if I trust this guy's opinion. It sounds to me like he read a press release...has driven a bunch of badly handling FWD cars that are slow, then they stuffed him in this thing. I'm sure that if I took one of my friends who is not a car person and let them drive this thing you'd get a similar response. If that is what they were going for when they built it, then they missed their target market because people like that don't buy "performance" cars...they buy cars that suit their needs, look kinda cool, and are in their price range. I suppose that once the dealers figure out they can't move them, then the price range thing will become less of an issue. Until that time comes, there are better built cars out there that can suit sombody's needs just as well as this car for the same or less money....

[Reaper1]

The thing about block girdles is that they stress the block in ways it wasn't meant to be stressed. It also defeats the whole point of an open deck block and has been found to cause cooling issues.

The "real" way to take care of the problem is to use cylinder posts. You drill and tap a hole in the side of the block at the propper spot where the cylinder needs support and you install a threaded post in there with epoxy and torque it to a very minimal amount. This biggest issue with this process is that it's not something you can do(propperly) with the engine together, or in the car.

I would also take bets that Dart is going to make cylinder sleeves and possibly even while blocks for the World Engine...becuase of its use in the EVO X...which is also not living up to its hype.

[sherm1123]

That is nothing more than simple specs and a sales pitch probably derrived from a press release by Chryser.

The fact that the NSRT engine produces less power in stock form than the CSRT means jack. A Honda H22 puts out more power than a TBI 8v too...guess which one can ultimatly make more power? I'll give you a hint...I've never seen a H22 put down the numbers that Stephan has....

Let's see..the above article states: if you put enough boost in a small engine, you can make more power than a larger one. We already knew that.

VVT is there for emissions and fuel economy, not performance. Dodge has had the capability to use variable cam phasing since the early 90's. They never used it until now becuase it wasn't needed!

The block was specially machined...wow...can you say cross drilling? There's nothing "special" about machining a block to help it live under boost conditions. Sales hype..next...

Unique cast pistons: read, they are dished and probably have steel struts in the skirts to aid with thermal expansion rates...been done for years...next...

Iron cylinder liners: well...I hope so! Aluminum wouldn't work very well as a cylinder bore with steel rings sliding up and down on it. This isn't a surprise...next..

Oil squirters...again, nothing new. Hell our 8v engines have them, but simply built in to the rod.

Forged connecting rods...yippie! Finally something that is becoming less and less common, but not out of the ordinary.

Tri-metal bearings....read Clevite 77. I use those in my engines too. Good bearings. I don't know why they feel this is so special though.

oil pump/balance shaft MODULE: read gonna be interesing to see if you can eliminate the balance shafts! Oh goody...they just made it more of a challenge to fee up some power. Sad face.

External oil cooler keeps oil temperatures within a safe range: well... the euro versions of the TD's got these, The R/T's were SUPPOSED to have gotten them, I'm fairly positive the NSRT has one. It makes sense, at least they didn't skimp on it. It doens't help make power though...it helps the engine live longer. *Shrug* If they couldn't keep the temperatures within a safe range without it, then there is obviously something going on there..either the engine is being stressed more than it can handle or the cooling system isn't up to the task....hmmm....

Unique high-temperature exhaust valves: read inconel. Our old TD's have these too. No big surprise there...next...

Once again VVT is brought up. Take a good look at the sentece: "VVT uses computer mapping to open and close intake and exhaust valves at optimal points for efficient combustion and flow." Efficient combustion means emissions. Flow does help with power, but more importantly with torque, which is in the lower rev range. I don't see a major advantage. Just by pure speculation, I'm guessing really one of the only reasons the turbo version of the World Engine has this system is becuase the non-turbo versions have it as well as the smaller versions of it. Parts bin stuff. Honda's that actually make a lot of power with boost usually disable their system....hmmm....

The cam and crank are shared with the non-turbo engine: read parts bin stuff again. There was a reason those parts were chosen for the non-turbo engines as well. If they could have gotten by with lesser parts in those engines they would have!

I would LOVE to know where you got the info about the upgrade packages. To my knowledge Chrysler does not have, and has no plans to release true "stage" kits like they did for the NSRT. If you are reffering to aftermarket, that's fine, but it's not backed by Chrysler, nor devleoped by them as the previous kits were. They felt that they could add the power they did with those kits safely and relabiably without too much threat to the drivetrain. I'm fairly certain that if they felt the same way about this car that they would have done something.

Also, that 6-speed gearbox has a history of being, how shall I put this?...not that strong with a lot of power. The first use for it was in the SVT Focus. Those things would break that tranny and they didn't even come close to the power the Speed3 or CSRT makes. I'm willing to bet that even if the internals were upgraded over time, that if the torque limiting properties of the stock computer are somehow overridden that eventually there will be tranny guts all over the ground.


Thanks! Great information! So what parts of the NSRT engine do you feel make it superior to the new engine and why do you think it makes so much less HP than the CSRT?

[Aries_Turbo]

it makes less hp cause it was already the biggest bang for the buck on the street. now the ante has to be upped or no one will buy it.

iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.

need i say more?

the factory stage 3 package for the NSRT4 makes 400+hp at the crank. lets see the csrt do that? ill be waiting.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

So aluminum blocks cant make/take power? Don't tell the LS1 guys...

[Aries_Turbo]

im not saying that. im saying that totally stock, closed deck iron blocks usually take alot more than open deck aluminum ones before considerable mods are needed to keep the machine together.

Brian

[slowbrokedodge]

So aluminum blocks cant make/take power? Don't tell the LS1 guys...

In a way you are trying to compare apples to oranges, to me it sill comes down to the old saying, "there no substitute for cubic inches" sure small 4 cylinder engines can make the hp of a V8 but there will be much less stress on the bigger motor, and if you want to push the LS1 for example they can make big hp cheaper and eisier, or we could introduce another example the LS7 (as in the current ZO6) it has an aluminum block and its 427ci, but dont try to put much cylinder pressure on it, the steel sleeves that make up the cylinder walls are way to thin and will disinagrate. but cast iron blocks throught history are stronger and last longer under high stress.

[sherm1123]

it makes less hp cause it was already the biggest bang for the buck on the street. now the ante has to be upped or no one will buy it.

iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.iron block.

need i say more?

the factory stage 3 package for the NSRT4 makes 400+hp at the crank. lets see the csrt do that? ill be waiting.

Brian

I'm not sure where you got your numbers but here's what I found regarding the Neon Stage 3:

"The Mopar Performance Stage 3R Turbo Upgrade Kit ($4199 MSRP) was the hottest bolt-on--the "R" is for "race only," so keep it off of public roads, wink wink. The kit is essentially a big Mitsubishi TD05 turbo with the necessary electronic and fueling enhancements to make it work. Our Stage 3R car also came with turbo toys, a three-control assembly mounted underneath the heater controls that allows you to spray the intercooler (off, auto, manual), play with the boost levels (zero through three), and--our favorite--switch on high octane mode. With regular 93 octane pump gasoline, the car puts out 310 hp and 325 lb-ft at the crankshaft, by no means old-lady numbers. Pump in 100 octane unleaded, and you'd better hold on to your potatoes as the engine pushes 355 hp and 365 lb-ft to the crank."

310hp is a long way from 400hp?

Here's a link regarding kits already available for the CSRT and remember, these are with the stock turbo and all engine components...

http://www.caliberforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6754

That's 335hp from Stage 1 for $1000....on pump gas.

[sherm1123]

Umm...the CSRT has a beefier engine?! Umm...all I have to say is aluminum block with an OPEN DECK! Can you say Honda?! Hardly the empitomy of beefiness....

Here's a video video for ya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oL0GXubQCk&feature=related

I watched the video of two kids in the dark saying they were racing and that their car sucked. Unless they had some aftermarket gauges, they weren't in a CSRT.

I'm not sure what the video has to do with the strength of the CSRT engine...

[Reaper1]

OK..so aftermarket kits. Fair enough, but their "stage 1" seems more like a stage 2.

It'll be interesting to see how the longentivity of the drivetrain is effected.

[Reaper1]

Dash looked like a Caliber dash layout to me... Boost gage over in the left corner, tach in the center, radio way up high...*shrug*

[sherm1123]

im not saying that. im saying that totally stock, closed deck iron blocks usually take alot more than open deck aluminum ones before considerable mods are needed to keep the machine together.

Brian


So you think my engine isn't going to stay together? Do you not think the SRT engineers know what they are doing? So why do you think some of the fastest performance cars out there use a similar design to the CSRT? If the NSRT engine design is superior, why does it produce so much less HP?

[sherm1123]

I would LOVE to know where you got the info about the upgrade packages. To my knowledge Chrysler does not have, and has no plans to release true "stage" kits like they did for the NSRT. If you are reffering to aftermarket, that's fine, but it's not backed by Chrysler, nor devleoped by them as the previous kits were. They felt that they could add the power they did with those kits safely and relabiably without too much threat to the drivetrain. I'm fairly certain that if they felt the same way about this car that they would have done something.


As of the last SRT engineer chat session last month the release date for the MOPAR Stage kits for the CSRT was projected to be in 2008, with a probably summer release. The kits will be easy to do and much cheaper than the Neon ones because of strength of the CSRT powerplant. Where are you hearing they aren't going to release them? The car hasn't even been on the streets for 6 months and you think MOPAR has no plans to make additional cash off of it?

The first Neon Stage kits took over a year to come out after the car was released and longer for Stage 2 and 3. A 2008 Stage kit would actually be much quicker than the Neon kits. What do you mean, backed by Chrysler? Adding any of the Stage kits voids all warranty's and the NSRT Stage 3 kit isn't even street legal...

There are already several aftermarket kits available as well for the CSRT.

[sherm1123]

Until that time comes, there are better built cars out there that can suit sombody's needs just as well as this car for the same or less money....

So how do you think I could have better spent my $21,200? What car out there today offers better performance "bang for the buck" than the CSRT?

[cordes]

So how do you think I could have better spent my $21,200? What car out there today offers better performance "bang for the buck" than the CSRT?

You mean a new car right? The GLHT is still the best bang for the buck of all time in my book. The GN isn't to far behind though.

[sherm1123]

You mean a new car right? The GLHT is still the best bang for the buck of all time in my book. The GN isn't to far behind though.

Yeah, I was speaking of a new car. The GLH-T would be very hard to beat! How much were they new? 150hp right?

[contraption22]

Thanks! Great information! So what parts of the NSRT engine do you feel make it superior to the new engine and why do you think it makes so much less HP than the CSRT?

Does anybody know for sure the Caliber makes more power than the Neon did?
It's common knowlege that the Neons were underated in their ourput.

[contraption22]

So how do you think I could have better spent my $21,200? What car out there today offers better performance "bang for the buck" than the CSRT?

Hmm.. not much for that exact price... but compared to the other hot sport compacts on the market, you spend a few bucks more and get ALOT more performance.

[sherm1123]

Hmm.. not much for that exact price... but compared to the other hot sport compacts on the market, you spend a few bucks more and get ALOT more performance.

Which cars specifically? How much is a few more bucks? Most of the cars that can compete with the CSRT are $10,000+ more by my estimations, and that is quite a few buck s more!

[sherm1123]

Does anybody know for sure the Caliber makes more power than the Neon did?
It's common knowlege that the Neons were underated in their ourput.

I'm using the numbers provided by Dodge, 230hp vs 285hp. I'm not talking about Dyno's, but if you want to we can. The CSRT's are consistantly Dyno'ing higher than their factory rating and were detuned down to 285Hp from the original 300Hp that most are making stock and Dodge originally advertised them at. Insurance companies always win... As you know I've owned both the NSRT and the CSRT, as many of the current CSRT owners have, and they CSRT's are noticibly more powerful, maybe not "quicker", but definitely more powerful- the horsepower difference is very apparant.

[contraption22]

Which cars specifically? How much is a few more bucks? Most of the cars that can compete with the CSRT are $10,000+ more by my estimations, and that is quite a few buck s more!

Mazdaspeed3
WRX
The upcomming Lancer Ralliart(EVO detuned slightly, fewer gizmos)
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/13/detroit-2008-2009-mitsubishi-lancer-ralliart-were-sold/
The new turbocharged Cobalt.
None of these are $30k plus cars.

[sherm1123]

Mazdaspeed3
WRX
The upcomming Lancer Ralliart(EVO detuned slightly, fewer gizmos)
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/13/detroit-2008-2009-mitsubishi-lancer-ralliart-were-sold/
The new turbocharged Cobalt.
None of these are $30k plus cars.

Interesting choices. I'm sure that we can agree that all of these cars would be at least $5000+ more than the CSRT with most pushing on the $30K door and that they all have much less stock HP . The Mazda, WRX, and EVO are all great cars that the CSRT can compete with. I'm not sure the Cobalt will fall into either of those catagories. Of course that is only my opinion of a car that hasn't made it to the street yet.


I beleive the car in the link will share engines with the CSRT as does the new EVO.

[sherm1123]

Mazdaspeed3
WRX
The upcomming Lancer Ralliart(EVO detuned slightly, fewer gizmos)
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/13/detroit-2008-2009-mitsubishi-lancer-ralliart-were-sold/
The new turbocharged Cobalt.
None of these are $30k plus cars.

According to Subaru the 2008 WRX Sti starts at $34,995 and produces 305hp. That's almost $14,000 more than my car and then you have to pay an extra $2000 if you want fog lights and upgraded brakes, oh and the ipod connection is extra too...:yuck:

Mitsu has the 2008 EVO starting at $32,990. Mazda's site wasn't working, but the one reviewed by Car and Driver, I think it was, was listed at $27,500. So it is the closest price wise and still quite a few bucks more!

Looks like my $30K+ statement was very accurate. It takes an extra $10K to compete with the CSRT. According to another post you can buy a Viper motor and 5 Omni's for that where he comes from!:thumb:

[contraption22]

Interesting choices. I'm sure that we can agree that all of these cars would be at least $5000+ more than the CSRT with most pushing on the $30K door and that they all have much less stock HP . The Mazda, WRX, and EVO are all great cars that the CSRT can compete with. I'm not sure the Cobalt will fall into either of those catagories. Of course that is only my opinion of a car that hasn't made it to the street yet.


I beleive the car in the link will share engines with the CSRT as does the new EVO.

To reiterate my previous post which inspired your question "Which cars?" I say they may cost a bit more, but arguably offer a better perfomance value.
Value is not simply the cheapest you can get... its a measure of a product's quality (in this case, performance) to the dollars spent. Most of these cars offer better hardware for the extra cost, some are AWD, or at the very least offer an ACTUAL LSD. Yes, all of the cars I listed have less HP, but all of them are certainly capable of outrunning, cornering and braking a Caliber, a testiment to the handicaps the SRT engineers faced when handed a Cute-Ute and told to make it a Sport Compact. They did well with the hand they were dealt, but the cards were stacked against them from Day 1.

To say the EVO's engine is the same as the Caliber's engine is to say that the Neon SRT-4 motor is the same as that offered in 2002 MiniCooper, or that LS7 Z06 engine is the same as the base engine in a GMC Savanna. Yeah they are the same family, but they have different displacement, heads, cams, engine management, turbochargers, manifolds, etc.

[contraption22]

According to Subaru the 2008 WRX Sti starts at $34,995 and produces 305hp. That's almost $14,000 more than my car and then you have to pay an extra $2000 if you want fog lights and upgraded brakes, oh and the ipod connection is extra too...:yuck:

Mitsu has the 2008 EVO starting at $32,990. Mazda's site wasn't working, but the one reviewed by Car and Driver, I think it was, was listed at $27,500. So it is the closest price wise and still quite a few bucks more!

Looks like my $30K+ statement was very accurate. It takes an extra $10K to compete with the CSRT. According to another post you can buy a Viper motor and 5 Omni's for that where he comes from!:thumb:

I never talked about the STi or EVO... I mentioned their lower priced, and lower performing counterparts, which still are/will be able to outperform the Caliber.

http://www.caranddriver.com/content/download/2835/38487/version/5/file/HotHatchComparo_final.pdf

[slowbrokedodge]

According to Subaru the 2008 WRX Sti starts at $34,995 and produces 305hp. That's almost $14,000 more than my car and then you have to pay an extra $2000 if you want fog lights and upgraded brakes, oh and the ipod connection is extra too...:yuck:

Mitsu has the 2008 EVO starting at $32,990. Mazda's site wasn't working, but the one reviewed by Car and Driver, I think it was, was listed at $27,500. So it is the closest price wise and still quite a few bucks more!

Looks like my $30K+ statement was very accurate. It takes an extra $10K to compete with the CSRT. According to another post you can buy a Viper motor and 5 Omni's for that where he comes from!:thumb:

1st of all I can assume that your car is a base CSRT-4 considering the price you quoted (and you must have gotten a discount at that, according to dodges web site they start at $23,285, and seeing that they are not selling at all down here I could see that.) So at that rate we must put your price against similar cars that can compete with the CSRT-4.

2nd why do you think the CSRT-4 is a direct line up to the STI, more like the regular WRX 5 door (in performance test that would make more sence) and they start at $24,850, and get a decent ammount for that money. and the evo is along the same line as the STI not really a good comparo.

3rd the mazdaspeed3 starts at $23,090 and you get alot more for your money than the CSRT-4 offers in base trim.


4th the new cobalt SS turbo starts at $22,995, and it does offer an LSD for 495$ (cheap, and at least it offers one) http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2008_chevrolet_cobalt_ss_first_drive/index.html and it looks very promising, quarter in 13.9 at 102.5 mph similar to the CSRT-4 but better stock time, and
runs Germany's Nurburgring with a time of 8:22.85 minutes, a new record for front-drive sport-compacts.

so in short your facts seem a bit off on defending your calibur.

[slowbrokedodge]

Edit.

[sherm1123]

[QUOTE=contraption22;312822]I never talked about the STi or EVO... I mentioned their lower priced, and lower performing counterparts, which still are/will be able to outperform the Caliber.[QUOTE]

What are basing this on? I picked the Sti and EVO because they have stated performance figures comparable to the stated CSRT numbers- HP, 1/4 mile etc.. but of course they are $15,000 more comparably equiped.

[contraption22]

[QUOTE=contraption22;312822]I never talked about the STi or EVO... I mentioned their lower priced, and lower performing counterparts, which still are/will be able to outperform the Caliber.[QUOTE]

What are basing this on? I picked the Sti and EVO because they have stated performance figures comparable to the stated CSRT numbers- HP, 1/4 mile etc.. but of course they are $15,000 more comparably equiped.

I haven't seen any data to support Calibers running anywhere near STi or EVOX performance figures. A quick google search netted me a comparison test of STI and EVOX with 1/4 mile times estimated in the mid 12's.
If a Caliber can't hold itself against a WRX, how can it match an STi?

Enlighten us.

[sherm1123]

[QUOTE=sherm1123;312831][QUOTE=contraption22;312822]I never talked about the STi or EVO... I mentioned their lower priced, and lower performing counterparts, which still are/will be able to outperform the Caliber.

I haven't seen any data to support Calibers running anywhere near STi or EVOX performance figures. A quick google search netted me a comparison test of STI and EVOX with 1/4 mile times estimated in the mid 12's.
If a Caliber can't hold itself against a WRX, how can it match an STi?

Enlighten us.

If those are stock times, then it can't. I was unable to find any official 1/4 mile times so was basing my statements on HP which is certainly comparable. Where did you find the stock 1/4 mile times? What does estimated refer to, that they think it will go that fast?

I did find a link on a Sti forum stating that the HP rating for the 2008 was very overarated- 270 on dyno to 305 advertised.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/power-bragging/115525-2008-sti-271whp-290wtq.html

I used the Sti as a comparison, because I never had any trouble beating them on the street with my NSRT, and expect similar results with the CSRT.

[sherm1123]

Edit.

Thank you. For a site called Turbo-Mopar there sure seems to be a lot of hate towards the only turbo-Mopar currently being sold...

[contraption22]

Horsepower is not the only variable in 1/4 mile times. Vehicle weight and traction are paramount.
You take a 285 hp FWD vehicle with an open diff and run it against a 270 hp vehicle of the same weight with AWD and 2 LSD's, guess what's gonna happen?\

Thats one of the reason the Caliber will have it's --- handed to it by vehicles with less power and either more traction, or less weight, or both.

[slowbrokedodge]

Thank you. For a site called Turbo-Mopar there sure seems to be a lot of hate towards the only turbo-Mopar currently being sold...

Its not hate, it simply comes down to make a good product and people will buy it, and if its not they wont. People can make there own conclusion.

[contraption22]

Thank you. For a site called Turbo-Mopar there sure seems to be a lot of hate towards the only turbo-Mopar currently being sold...


They still sell the PT Turbo.:thumb:

[sherm1123]

1st of all I can assume that your car is a base CSRT-4 considering the price you quoted (and you must have gotten a discount at that, according to dodges web site they start at $23,285, and seeing that they are not selling at all down here I could see that.) So at that rate we must put your price against similar cars that can compete with the CSRT-4.

4th the new cobalt SS turbo starts at $22,995, and it does offer an LSD for 495$ (cheap, and at least it offers one) http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0803_2008_chevrolet_cobalt_ss_first_drive/index.html and it looks very promising, quarter in 13.9 at 102.5 mph similar to the CSRT-4 but better stock time, and
runs Germany's Nurburgring with a time of 8:22.85 minutes, a new record for front-drive sport-compacts.



Yes, my CSRT is a base SRT. The only options available for it are fluff, nothing that affects performance. All performance features are standard.

Thanks for the info on the Cobalt. I hadn't heard any of that before. If those numbers pan out it will be a fun car to race against. The supercharged version is no more fun to race than an Escort.

[sherm1123]

They still stll the PT Turbo.:thumb:

True, and I really do like those! I almost had my wife talked into a blue Gt turbo 5spd convertible when she ended up with her Mazda 3. She loved it with the top down but felt claustrphobic with it up.

I thought I read last month that with all the cuts at Chrysler that the PT was cut? I know the convertible was, but I thought the platform as a whole was going.

[contraption22]

Its not hate, it simply comes down to make a good product and people will buy it, and if its not they wont. People can make there own conclusion.

Agreed, and Sherm is obviously a long time Turbo Mopar, and general Mopar enthusiast who is very happy with his current ride. There is no argument that the CSRT is a respectable vehicle for what it is. Obviously he has the background in performance vehicles to have a good idea what lights his fire:)

[contraption22]

True, and I really do like those! I almost had my wife talked into a blue Gt turbo 5spd convertible when she ended up with her Mazda 3. She loved it with the top down but felt claustrphobic with it up.

I thought I read last month that with all the cuts at Chrysler that the PT was cut? I know the convertible was, but I thought the platform as a whole was going.

The convertible is done. The 4 door will carry out thru 2009 last i heard.

[slowbrokedodge]

05-07 Cobalt SS Facts,
BASE PRICE: $21,540
ENGINE TYPE: supercharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port fuel injection
Displacement: 122 cu in, 1998cc
Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5600 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 200 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.3 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 32.3 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.6 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 141 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 169 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g
Curb weight: 2936 lb


Really not that much of a pushover, and 06 and 07's got better suspention.

[sherm1123]

Horsepower is not the only variable in 1/4 mile times. Vehicle weight and traction are paramount.
You take a 285 hp FWD vehicle with an open diff and run it against a 270 hp vehicle of the same weight with AWD and 2 LSD's, guess what's gonna happen?\

Thats one of the reason the Caliber will have it's --- handed to it by vehicles with less power and either more traction, or less weight, or both.

So far the CSRT's doing just fine at the track, posting times as good or better than the NSRT in stock form and substantially better with minor mods. I don't know anyone who owns one that is complaining about performance or having any trouble on the street or the strip. I remember these same arguments when the NSRT first came out. I bought one in 2003 and as Yogi says, "Its deja vu all over again..."

It also brings back memories of all of those great races I had back in the 80's against 5.0 Mustangs in my little, boxy, 4-banger, GLH-T. Everyone made fun until they were smoked!

[sherm1123]

05-07 Cobalt SS Facts,
BASE PRICE: $21,540
ENGINE TYPE: supercharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port fuel injection
Displacement: 122 cu in, 1998cc
Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5600 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 200 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.3 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 32.3 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.6 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 141 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 169 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g
Curb weight: 2936 lb


Really not that much of a pushover, and 06 and 07's got better suspention.

Looks decent on paper. Lots of cars do. Maybe I have only came up against poor drivers running bad gas?

[sherm1123]

The convertible is done. The 4 door will carry out thru 2009 last i heard.

Cool. Had you read that they are combining all of the dealerships, closing the smaller ones. No more seperate Dodge and Chrysler dealerships, Just Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealers? I think it was in one of those articles that I was reading of the models that were suspected of being axed and the PT was on the list, but I beleive it was just specualtion on the authors part as far as the specific models. If they do cominbe the brands I can see several platforms leaving to save $.

[sherm1123]

Agreed, and Sherm is obviously a long time Turbo Mopar, and general Mopar enthusiast who is very happy with his current ride. There is no argument that the CSRT is a respectable vehicle for what it is. Obviously he has the background in performance vehicles to have a good idea what lights his fire:)

Thank you! :amen: I wish we were all local so that I could give you all a ride, or maybe even let you get behind the wheel. I think many opinions would quickly change. I'm not that easily impressed, and have been around fast cars all my life, and this is one of the funnest cars I have ever owned/driven. Like the hottie in the Cadilac commercial says, when you turn your car on does it return the favor? The CSRT certainly does for me and I guess that's all that matters at the end of a drive/race/day.

[Reaper1]

To my knowledge(which I don't follow SRT chats so...) the MOPAR performance kits are going to be intake, exhaust, maybe a BOV...no wonder they're cheaper! I've not heard of kits that are going to do any kind of retuning to the car or different turbos(which WILL be needed to get much more over 330hp, as was proven with the NSRT). As of right now they don't have really anything for it(as far as power adders)...nothing even "coming soon"...

One thing I keep noticing is that you conistantly compare ONLY the horsepower(which BTW I just found a video of a completely stock one putting down 267hp/248tq at the wheels and another with around 259hp/258tq...about what I expected). In the grand scheme of things that number is only part of the equation. I did a search online to try and find some 1/4 mile times for it...I found the "Red Shed"...which I just throw out the window since it isn't a good representation of what you are going to typically find on the street. I have yet to find any good videos(looked on YouTube, Streetfire, and googled it!). I have been looking for 1/4 mile times...most are in the mid to low 14's, right where the NSRT was. Typical mph's are 98-103...also just like the NSRT.

Once again, for the "quality" of the car, and other performance aspects, there are better choices!

As a side note, I wonder how well these cars will hold up after 20 years? I honestly don't think that much of anything built after '95 is going to really last all that long unless it is completely babied...this goes for just about ALL the manufactuers.

[contraption22]

Cool. Had you read that they are combining all of the dealerships, closing the smaller ones. No more seperate Dodge and Chrysler dealerships, Just Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealers? I think it was in one of those articles that I was reading of the models that were suspected of being axed and the PT was on the list, but I beleive it was just specualtion on the authors part as far as the specific models. If they do cominbe the brands I can see several platforms leaving to save $.

Yes, in fact over the last few years in my local area, several of the smaller Dodge or Chrysler dealerships have closed and others have merged into Superstores.

The PT is on the chopping block, as well as the Magnum, Compass. Other models are likely, but nothing concrete.

[sherm1123]

To my knowledge(which I don't follow SRT chats so...) the MOPAR performance kits are going to be intake, exhaust, maybe a BOV...no wonder they're cheaper! I've not heard of kits that are going to do any kind of retuning to the car or different turbos(which WILL be needed to get much more over 330hp, as was proven with the NSRT). As of right now they don't have really anything for it(as far as power adders)...nothing even "coming soon"...

One thing I keep noticing is that you conistantly compare ONLY the horsepower(which BTW I just found a video of a completely stock one putting down 267hp/248tq at the wheels and another with around 259hp/258tq...about what I expected). In the grand scheme of things that number is only part of the equation. I did a search online to try and find some 1/4 mile times for it...I found the "Red Shed"...which I just throw out the window since it isn't a good representation of what you are going to typically find on the street. I have yet to find any good videos(looked on YouTube, Streetfire, and googled it!). I have been looking for 1/4 mile times...most are in the mid to low 14's, right where the NSRT was. Typical mph's are 98-103...also just like the NSRT.

Once again, for the "quality" of the car, and other performance aspects, there are better choices!

As a side note, I wonder how well these cars will hold up after 20 years? I honestly don't think that much of anything built after '95 is going to really last all that long unless it is completely babied...this goes for just about ALL the manufactuers.

Any of the specifics on the MOPAR kits are speculation at this time, no official facts have been released, just hints and dates. Do I think they will release kits and soon, yes. Has there been lots of info about them, yes. All of the tuners actually working on the CSRT now have said that the stock turbo is good to 375 to 400 hp. The beauty in the CSRT is that no major modifications are going to be needed to make substantial HP gains. Its like we are at Stage 2.5 out of the box. They were detuned from the factory and lots of HP is being released without any major modifications.

If you are interested of time slips, dyno's, or videos, just go to www.caliberforums.com. There are bunches of all of those. Let me know if you have trouble finding what you are looking for. I don't consider the Red Shed to be anything but an expirement. There are lots of dynos in the 300hp range- thats at the wheels- and dynos over 330hp with all stock internals and turbo. (check out Mattyice's posts). 99% of the stuff posted are from stock or near stock vehicles posted from regular guys just like us. Yes the current times are very similar to the stock NSRT, most being in the low 14's, high 13 range. But as more mods are done, I think the CSRT will surpass the NSRT. My best time in my stock NSRT was 14.4, so I hope to be able to post similar times when I finally make it to the track.

Cars aren't built to last 20 years anymore, they are built to last 100,000 miles, or if you are a cynic, one day after your warranty expires.:D My car is a daily driver. Will I keep it forever? Probably not. As the string of 27 vehicles I have previously owned can attest my love of cars is a bit fickle, it usually lasts until something a little faster and flashier comes along, oh and when its paid off. :nod:

[Reaper1]

Just a small tidbit...I recently talked with a GM driveline engineer about the new Hybird Taho, the tranny alone is designed for a 150,000mile lifespan....

[contraption22]

As a side note, I wonder how well these cars will hold up after 20 years? I honestly don't think that much of anything built after '95 is going to really last all that long unless it is completely babied...this goes for just about ALL the manufactuers.


I know of two Neon SRT-4's with over 160k miles on them each.

I'm pretty certain that with proper care and love, later model fwd chryslers will last just as long or better than their K-derived predecessors....
Although I am not so sure about the new Sebring/Avenger cars... they just feel so chinsey.

[Reaper1]

Oh, I'm sure that drivelines can hold milage...I'm tlaking about wear and tear on the entire vehicle for that amount of time. I honestly don't see the interiors specifically holding up well. We all know how the hard plastic bits have done in our cars...now entire dashes are made of that stuff! I've heard of newer Dakota's having dashes that litterally crumble!

New cars are built with the least amount of parts with the least expensive materials at hand that will do the job. They are also built for ease of production, meaning a LOT of snaps, clips, and press-fits. I just don't see this stuff holding up well...

(yes I realize that they do accelerated wear testing and such, but that is still no substitute for the actual time)

[contraption22]

Oh, I'm sure that drivelines can hold milage...I'm tlaking about wear and tear on the entire vehicle for that amount of time. I honestly don't see the interiors specifically holding up well. We all know how the hard plastic bits have done in our cars...now entire dashes are made of that stuff! I've heard of newer Dakota's having dashes that litterally crumble!

New cars are built with the least amount of parts with the least expensive materials at hand that will do the job. They are also built for ease of production, meaning a LOT of snaps, clips, and press-fits. I just don't see this stuff holding up well...

(yes I realize that they do accelerated wear testing and such, but that is still no substitute for the actual time)

Well we do have a 14 year old Neon in the family... and other than normal things like the headliner falling, its in pretty great shape.

[Aries_Turbo]

dont get me wrong, i do like the CSRT4 but I dont like it as much as GLH or an older TD.

plus you seem to worship the csrt4 and ignore its faults so its fun to discuss. :)

Brian

[sherm1123]

Just a small tidbit...I recently talked with a GM driveline engineer about the new Hybird Taho, the tranny alone is designed for a 150,000mile lifespan....


So is your point that that GM is making vehicles that last and Dodge isn't?

[sherm1123]

dont get me wrong, i do like the CSRT4 but I dont like it as much as GLH or an older TD.

plus you seem to worship the csrt4 and ignore its faults so its fun to discuss. :)

Brian

Yes, I have been accused of worshiping at the the alter of mother MOPAR for years. I was defending your cars in the 80's when they were new too. I kind of thought that was what this site was for- the worship of the MOPAR turbo powered vehicle. I have been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Maybe the site name should be changed to Pre 1992 Turbo-MOPAR since it seems to be the unalterable consensus of most of the members here that that era of cars are superior to all others and that virtually no improvements in technology have happened in the last 20 years.

I didn't join this site to defend my vehicle to other MOPAR fans. After reading all of the hate and misinformation stated in the posts about the CSRT I thought I would try and inform, or at least give you a different perspective- a first hand one. That has been shown to have been not needed or wanted.

It is rather sad though when this forum is being talked about on other sites by your members for the way they treat other car enthusiasts and seemingly despise and tear down exactly what their site is supposed to support...

http://www.caliberforumz.com/showthread.php?t=14620

[BadAssPerformance]

We appreciate your insight into the new Calibers sherm :thumb:

Just gotta realize some of the old school turbo guys are hardcore and that their valhalla is a compound storing a dozen Omni's and enough parts to keep them running for 100 years :D

[Aries_Turbo]

sherm, i dont know why you are so excited about some of us not liking the csrt that much? its not like we poured poop on your car and said it was gay. its a nice car. id just rather have something older and cheaper and lighter and more simple.

brian

[sherm1123]

sherm, i dont know why you are so excited about some of us not liking the csrt that much? its not like we poured poop on your car and said it was gay. its a nice car. id just rather have something older and cheaper and lighter and more simple.

brian

Actually it was referred to as a "turd" several times, with one post actually being deleted by the moderator, and I believe the exact quote from another post was "Caliber=Gay", not that there is anything wrong with being gay...

Not wanting to own a car and constantly putting it down are two different things. I may no longer want to drive an 85 GLH-T, but I can still see the advantages (and disadvantages) to the car. I can still see why someone else would enjoy driving it and don't feel the need to belittle their car or their choice to own it. This site is supposed to be a place that turbo-MOPAR's are accepted and promoted, not torn down. There are plenty of those sites already.

[Reaper1]

No, that wasn't my point at all. Just that usually car manufacturers tend to follow commonalities...this one happenes to be that the transmission/hybrid drive are designed for a 150,000 mile life. I also want to point out that this sytem was developed in conjuntion with Chrysler! So the statement is directly applicable.

The issue I have with the Caliber is that, in my eyes, it is a step backwards from the Neon. Rated power being it's only real strong point over the previous car. My gripe isn't only with the Caliber, but with Chrysler as a whole right now(and in a broader light, the whole auto industry). The only reason I even have as much interest in the car as I do is becuase it is a bloodline decendant of the cars I drive, and therefor reflects that image(in a very blurry form). I honestly beleive that the cars being offered right now, by in large, are utter crap(save for a few that do spark my interest...but are WAY out of most people's budget). I don't like their styling, I don't like their build quality, and I honestly beleive that there is a crapload more economy AND performance that could be offered, but we aren't getting it!

Having said all that..I'm not prejudice....I hate all equally! I just happen to not like the Caliber a tad more than other cars. I've already gone through most of this, so I'm going to rehash what's already been said. I commend you on defending your choice...I have to do it quite a bit also as not many people in the outside world like our old TD's, not to mention my love affair with the 3.0 AND the A604 which has been a never ending battle since day one! I have come to terms with certain faults of my choices, however.

Sure, technology has come a LONG way since the mid 80's. A factory waranty is something I can only dream about. Not having certain rattles, squeaks, and other various old car quirks would be great! Having a growing aftermarket support network and all kinds of new parts available form the factory(for when I screw something up) would also be nice(TD's do have a slightly growing aftermarket, but not like new cars). All that and I STILL think that a better job could have been done with the exectution of, not only the Caliber, but most new cars out there!

[Aries_Turbo]

Actually it was referred to as a "turd" several times, with one post actually being deleted by the moderator, and I believe the exact quote from another post was "Caliber=Gay", not that there is anything wrong with being gay...

ok i should have said that I didnt say those things.

really though, you are so adamant that the csrt is such a better car than all its predecessors that its easy to get an argument started especially cause alot of us dont like the csrt because of its shortfalls. :)

Brian

[glhs727]

Well, I'm not sure about a step backwards from the neon statement. I took one for a test drive today, and here is a couple of observations:
It comes better equipped than the n-srt with GPS/nav, side airbags, cruise control, u-connect hands free, sirius radio, sunroof etc.. (the only option you could really get on the nsrt was a sunroof) the csrt has better suspension factory, and much better rims and tires. All for not much more than what 2005 nsrt sold for, and this is 3 years later. But it is unfair to compare them to each other because I wouldn't say it is apples to apples. The caliber is more like a hybrid suv and not a sedan in both driving and looks. The caliber has a lot of great qualities, and the looks are a love it or hate. Would I buy one? maybe... I made lots of mods to my neon srt-4 to make it a car I loved, and the caliber with a few changes would also make a vehicle I would love.
later,
Cindy

[Reaper1]

I'll have to give it another look, but honestly even if it does have a slightly better suspension than the Neon, the high roll center is going to basically kill any good that it can do.

I don't honestly beleive that 19" wheels are that good. The only reason I could see them even being needed is to clear the brakes...which it looks like they could do that with smaller wheels. Larger wheels are heavier(makes the unsprung weight and rotating mass higher than it needs to be), they don't allow much of a sidewall for the tires(tires get expensive in very low ratio sizes, they ride like crap, they are horrible for straight line acceleration from a stop, and depending on thier size, a tire with a slightly taller sidewall may actually perform better in cornering! That's why the ACR NSRT got 16" wheels intead of the 17's!).

To me the radio, airbags, GPS/nav, sunroof...those are all things I could care less about. The Cruise is nice though...I will admit that.

My other gripe I suppose is more directed towards Chrylser and not the Caliber, but becuase it is their "introductory level" car, it gets the hit. Chrysler does not offer a small car anymore. A 3300# car is NOT a small car! That is a midsize car. Chrysler majorly screwed up when they canceled the Neon and then decided not to offer something smaller than a PT Cruiser. OK, so the Caliber is slightly smaller, but you can hardly classify it in the next level down! Not only that, it's WAY too expensive! You can get in to a nicely equiped Focus for just over $10K!!! Anyways....I suppose I'm just bitter becuase I honestly don't beleive that, for the most part, the products offered by Chrysler right now are worth what they ask for them and I think they've completely missed a market which they aimed at...

I remember when the NSRT was introduced...most everybody was like...OMG, that thing is going to be awsome! I want one! ect...
The reaction for this car is hardly the same. It got more of a golf clap for effort. To me, that in itself speaks volumes...I notice this is a trend for a lot of cars right now though...the new model offers more gizmos, more power, ect, but it doesn't really seem that much better than the old car. Even if the old car was more "raw" it seems like it was/is still a better choice! Evo X, WRX, STi, just for examples. Anyways....

[glhs727]

I'll have to give it another look, but honestly even if it does have a slightly better suspension than the Neon, the high roll center is going to basically kill any good that it can do.....

Agreed, and the first thing I would do if I owned one is drop it 1-2 inches. But then again, I did that with my nsrt too!


I don't honestly beleive that 19" wheels are that good. The only reason I could see them even being needed is to clear the brakes...which it looks like they could do that with smaller wheels. Larger wheels are heavier(makes the unsprung weight and rotating mass higher than it needs to be), they don't allow much of a sidewall for the tires(tires get expensive in very low ratio sizes, they ride like crap, they are horrible for straight line acceleration from a stop, and depending on thier size, a tire with a slightly taller sidewall may actually perform better in cornering! That's why the ACR NSRT got 16" wheels intead of the 17's!).....
actually I think the reason the acr got the 16's is because with the sport suspension, the 17's hits the strut perch. the 16 inch wheels are there to clear the perch. I'm not a big fan of 19's, but they look good on the caliber and allows for a better/shorter sidewall, and less side wall flex is better for handling. The caliber also has big 13 inch rotors up front, which is nice.




My other gripe I suppose is more directed towards Chrylser and not the Caliber, but becuase it is their "introductory level" car, it gets the hit. Chrysler does not offer a small car anymore. A 3300# car is NOT a small car! That is a midsize car. Chrysler majorly screwed up when they canceled the Neon and then decided not to offer something smaller than a PT Cruiser
Totally agree there. They really lost a huge section of possible owners when they eliminated the sedan with no replacement. Not everyone wants a SUV style car. And that I think is why the poor reception of the Csrt. The go fast sport crowd wants a sports car not a sports SUV, and the caliber to me is just a mini durango. You now have a car that appeals to a totally different demographic that doesn't necessarily cross offer to a sports enthusiast.

But again, driving one and taking a good look at, and discussing R&D projects/changes we would make if we bought one, the csrt could be a cool vehicle with a few changes :evil:

[t3rse]

like swapping the old 2.4 in? :eyebrows:

[sherm1123]

Here's a funny link from a Mustang forum:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/kill-stories/101392-srt4-caliber-toasted-me.html

It gets off topic pretty fast, but the first few posts are worth the effort!

[sherm1123]

Here's a link about the latest fast CSRT at the track. 12.9 on stock internals and turbo- not too shabby!

http://www.caliberforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6857

[contraption22]

Nice!

FYI... it doesn't have a stock turbocharger on it.

[sherm1123]

Nice!

FYI... it doesn't have a stock turbocharger on it.

Yes, it is the stock turbo- slightly modified. This set up is NOT using a larger turbo. There is more specific info on the turbo through the link now if you are interested.

[contraption22]

Yes, it is the stock turbo- slightly modified. This set up is NOT using a larger turbo. There is more specific info on the turbo through the link now if you are interested.

It's stock in external dimension... like a Super60 or Super70 is "stock" for a TurboII.

[88_pacifica]

I love the mopar bickering and debates. :D It is funny to watch people adamantly adhere to their true loves and each one of us is no different. The mopar madness is definitely evident, but I think that sherm has valid points as do some of you others.

What I think is unfair for sherm is that he is obviously not looking to "rebuild the car(I mean it's an '08 for gosh sakes;))" and this is not meant to be a "racecar." It is obviously a DD and probably a fairly reliable mid to high 14 sec car as it sits right out of the box. Now obviously, hopping it up and beating on it with 12 and 13 sec timeslips will kill it quick, but the impression I gather from him is that he doesn't plan on pushing his that far.

Therefore, it isn't a truly fair comparison to other "sport cars." Like somebody said earlier, it's a sport suv with performance(think 'Porsche Cayenne' watered down) for a cheaper market. If you are beating him or the CSRT up over the platform in general, then pick something better than a neon(even an SRT) to beat him up with. I mean, hello, a neon isn't exactly designed as a sports utility vehicle either....

Quite frankly, if you want an American sport compact, fuel conscious, performance car, Dodge isn't the place. :( You have to buy Phord or GM...

[sherm1123]

It's stock in external dimension... like a Super60 or Super70 is "stock" for a TurboII.

To quote Aaron, the car's owner, "We take the stock turbo, port it, and replace the compressor wheel with a much better piece."

The point of the post is to show that the CSRT's are making some very good times with very few modifications like larger turbos, which most NSRT's required to get into the 12's.

[sherm1123]

What I think is unfair for sherm is that he is obviously not looking to "rebuild the car(I mean it's an '08 for gosh sakes;))" and this is not meant to be a "racecar." It is obviously a DD and probably a fairly reliable mid to high 14 sec car as it sits right out of the box. Now obviously, hopping it up and beating on it with 12 and 13 sec timeslips will kill it quick, but the impression I gather from him is that he doesn't plan on pushing his that far.

Quite frankly, if you want an American sport compact, fuel conscious, performance car, Dodge isn't the place. :( You have to buy Phord or GM...

Exactly! The point of the CSRT is that you do not have to rebuild it (modify it) to make it go fast, very fast. It is designed for performance at the factory. Yes, there is allot of power that can still be unleashed if you choose as the link above shows, but its great straight out of the box.

As far a fuel conscious goes, Matty, the guy in the low 13's, is getting 36MPG on the highway and his car is a DD too. It seems the more you tune the CSRT the more power AND better fuel economy you get. I've only saw 32mpg so far...

I disagree with Dodge not being able to offer a compact, fuel conscious, performance car. In my opinion, that is exactly what the CSRT is and I don't see anything from Ford or GM that can compete on price, MPG, or HP...

[sherm1123]

like swapping the old 2.4 in? :eyebrows:

Were you wanting to lower the HP? What advantage would you get from that swap?

[contraption22]

The point of the post is to show that the CSRT's are making some very good times with very few modifications like larger turbos, which most NSRT's required to get into the 12's.

But your point is invalid... because there are dozens if not hundreds of NSRT4's in the 12's with stock turbos, or turbos upgraded in a similar fashion to the as your Caliber example, such as the FM Enforcer upgrades or the PTPerformance SST turbos, which are.... anyone?... anyone?... thats right, stock turbos with upgraded compressor wheels! Heck, there are a few in the 11's.

[88_pacifica]

I disagree with Dodge not being able to offer a compact, fuel conscious, performance car. In my opinion, that is exactly what the CSRT is and I don't see anything from Ford or GM that can compete on price, MPG, or HP...

I am merely stating what the classification the auto industry uses to classify these cars. A vehicle is what YOU make it. A Rampage is a truck if you REALLY wanted to label it as such even we don't think of them as such.

I think that GM's/Ford's lineup isn't bad with respect to the compact CAR market. I don't think that a caliber is even to be considered in relation to a 2 or even 4 dr Cobalt/Focus. The size/utilitarianism isn't even remotely close. I would think that instead the caliber is geared towards a market that neither of the other American manufacturers are even trying to target(family oriented market). This is a big "leap" for ChryCo which MAY bite them, but I think it won't unless long term reliability issues are uncovered. I feel that those other mfgrs are focusing on the "entry-level sports car" targets[20 something single/married "adults" with no kids]. Most people/families that are looking to go utilitarian and would consider the CSRT, but I would wager that the demographic of the Cobalt and Focus buyer is considerably different than a Caliber owner. As I recall from your other thread, I think your age/demographic is slightly different...


Age: 41

Marital Status: Married, 2 daughters, 22, 19- Looking to adopt a third child now. Pets-3 cats, 2 dogs, lots of fish.

That is why I feel a CSRT fits a niche market for the SPORT COMPACT SUV owner. Most considering a caliber aren't looking at cobalts/focus's. Instead, IMO a caliber owner is trying to find a solution to getting a "blah" SUV/minivan for the whole fandamily. ;)

[contraption22]

That is why I feel a CSRT fits a niche market for the SPORT compact SUV owner. Most considering a caliber aren't lookoing at cobalts/focus's. Instead, IMO a caliber owner is trying to find a solution to getting a "blah" SUV/minivan for the whole fandamily. ;)


It's like a TRD Matrix, or a Mugen Element. LOL

[sherm1123]

I am merely stating what the classification the auto industry uses to classify these cars. A vehicle is what YOU make it. A Rampage is a truck if you REALLY wanted to label it as such even we don't think of them as such.

I think that GM's/Ford's lineup isn't bad with respect to the compact CAR market. I don't think that a caliber is even to be considered in relation to a 2 or even 4 dr Cobalt/Focus. The size/utilitarianism isn't even remotely close. I would think that instead the caliber is geared towards a market that neither of the other American manufacturers are even trying to target(family oriented market). This is a big "leap" for ChryCo which MAY bite them, but I think it won't unless long term reliability issues are uncovered. I feel that those other mfgrs are focusing on the "entry-level sports car" targets[20 something single/married "adults" with no kids]. Most people/families that are looking to go utilitarian and would consider the CSRT, but I would wager that the demographic of the Cobalt and Focus buyer is considerably different than a Caliber owner. As I recall from your other thread, I think your age/demographic is slightly different...



That is why I feel a CSRT fits a niche market for the SPORT COMPACT SUV owner. Most considering a caliber aren't looking at cobalts/focus's. Instead, IMO a caliber owner is trying to find a solution to getting a "blah" SUV/minivan for the whole fandamily. ;)

Very good points. I agree. Here is some interesting demographics on the owners over at www.caliberforums.com:

http://www.caliberforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6647&highlight=age+poll

[88_pacifica]

It's like a TRD Matrix, or a Mugen Element. LOL

yep... ;) or worse yet.... the Vibe or the Aztek :lol::yuck:







just pickin on ya Sherm...;)

[sherm1123]

But your point is invalid... because there are dozens if not hundreds of NSRT4's in the 12's with stock turbos, or turbos upgraded in a similar fashion to the as your Caliber example, such as the FM Enforcer upgrades or the PTPerformance SST turbos, which are.... anyone?... anyone?... thats right, stock turbos with upgraded compressor wheels! Heck, there are a few in the 11's.

According to a post on this forum, the world record for a "stock" NSRT is 12.65

"...Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelGame
Actually, I just looked it up. Chuck Blossom ran a 12.655 @ Indy last year. Got the SRT's hit for horsepower, too. This is in a 'stock' SRT (well, stock engine and turbo, who knows what he's running for injectors/MAP/cal).

Yeah, I read the National Dragster cover to cover and knew the record was a fantastic 12.65, (and follow you other FWD cars) but I want NOT to set records, just win another "Wally". "

To read the whole post do a search of SRT and 12.65...

I'm really not sure what we are discussing at this point? I'm just trying to show the time a car has run, all of the modifications are listed in detail. I've not claimed anything that isn't in black and white. If it is the term stock that has you upset, I listed it in quotes to show that is up to interpretation. In my opinion, the stock turbo is just that, the unit that came on the car. That unit is still present. The modifications to that unit were listed.

To start this thread over from scratch:

Aaron's CSRT is fast. It went 12.9 at the track.

[sherm1123]

yep... ;) or worse yet.... the Vibe or the Aztek :lol::yuck:

just pickin on ya Sherm...;)

Don't worry, I'm used to it. I once drove an Omni. :lol:

But seriously, I've got nothing but amazing comments on the car. People come up to me where ever I am to ask about it. Not one negative comment in person...

[Tony Hanna]

My take on the CSRT is the same as my take on the HHRSS. They're neat cars for somebody else. My taste runs more toward the Cobalt SS, and unfortunately Chrysler doesn't have an equivalent. Never really did I guess since the NSRT wasn't available as a 2 door.:mad:

[t3rse]

Were you wanting to lower the HP? What advantage would you get from that swap?

A better engine capable of more power. I think you need to educate yourself. It takes more work to get the CSRT to run 12s than the NSRT.

[Reaper1]

I don't classify the CSRT as a compact anything! It weighs MORE than my '88 Shelby Z!! That car is NOT a compact car!

I'm not going to get in on the "stock" argument as my point was already covered.

I'm done arguing over the engine...I've simply accepted the fact that you are in love with the new one and simply think it's better. You are entitled to your opinion...I'm not going to try and change your mind, but I would suggest not blindly following the hype and do a little more investigation and I think you'll find some interesting facts. Both designs have their plusses and minuses. I suppose it depends on how far/hard you want to push the design as to which one has the better virtues for your purposes.

There is no doubt that the car can be quick. I think most of us feel that it is not a good candidate to be called the "successor" to the origional SRT4. This is a completely different car aimed a completely different market. I don't think it can even be classed the same as the origional car. It's its own thing...maybe we should just look at it that way...

[sherm1123]

I don't classify the CSRT as a compact anything! It weighs MORE than my '88 Shelby Z!! That car is NOT a compact car!


From another post I got these numbers:

NSRT is 174" long and weighs 2962 lbs
CSRT is 173.8" long and weighs 3189 lbs

The 1988 Shelby Z weighs in at 2950 lbs (correct me if this # is wrong), so both the NSRT and CSRT weigh more, but 227 lbs is hardly enough to call one a compact sports car and the other an SUV. In racing, 200lbs could be made up in the weight of the driver!

[sherm1123]

A better engine capable of more power. I think you need to educate yourself. It takes more work to get the CSRT to run 12s than the NSRT.

Help me with my education, what is required to get an NSRT into the 12's?

Is it Stage 1?

240 hp @ 5200 rpm Cost $400
260 ft-lbs @ 2400-4400 rpm
Fuel Injectors -- 577cc/min*
MOPAR Performance Powertrain Control Module (PCM)flashed with the Stage 1 code

Stage 2?

265HP Cost $1599
(1) Stage 2 PCM
(4) +30% Fuel Injectors (682 cc/min)
(1) Wastegate Actuator
(1) 3.0 bar TIP Sensor
Turbo Toys


Stage 3?

300HP Cost $4200
Stage 3 PCM
TD05HR-15GK2-10cm2 turbo unit
- 16% larger compressor wheel diameter to flow and compress more intake air
- 19% larger turbine wheel diameter to flow more exhaust gas and reduce back pressure
- 67% more turbine scroll area for reduced back pressure
High-Flow (75 psi) fuel pump module
Demand-regulated fuel rail assembly

All of the above comes straight off of the MOPAR Performance site. After making those upgrades at a parts only cost of $6200 you are still only at the HP rating of a stock CSRT with a K&N filter. Oh, but you do still wiegh 200lbs less...

The modifications that the CSRT's in the 12's are running are in the $1000 to $2000 range and we have went over them several times, but they are approximately the equivalent to Stage 2.

Here's a link to one of the aftermarket kits available:
http://www.caliberforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6754

I like to learn, so I will wait patiently for my education.

[contraption22]

I've run 13.20 with my NSRT. With only S2 and Mopar Catback. I'm only .2 away from 12's and still running a ACTUAL stock turbocharger. Like really stock. Not "stock". I mean stock stock. Like what the rest of the world would consider stock. Thats without any of the cheap mods like stiffer actuator, map clamps etc.

The modifications to the CSRT4 you are talking about is not comparable with NSRT4 stage 2 because, and i will say this again, it is not running a stock turbocharger.

If I upgraded my turbo with a larger compressor wheel as has been done to the CSRT4, I would easily be in the 12.'s.

Beth Reeves' car has run in the 12's with a stage 1, some bolt ons, and a ACTUAL stock turbocharger.

[sherm1123]

I've run 13.20 with my NSRT. With only S2 and Mopar Catback. I'm only .2 away from 12's and still running a ACTUAL stock turbocharger. Like really stock. Not "stock". I mean stock stock. Like what the rest of the world would consider stock. Thats without any of the cheap mods like stiffer actuator, map clamps etc.

The modifications to the CSRT4 you are talking about is not comparable with NSRT4 stage 2 because, and i will say this again, it is not running a stock turbocharger.

If I upgraded my turbo with a larger compressor wheel as has been done to the CSRT4, I would easily be in the 12.'s.

Beth Reeves' car has run in the 12's with a stage 1, some bolt ons, and a ACTUAL stock turbocharger.

Congrats! Those are great times! So which Stage would typically be required to get a NSRT into the 12's? Do you have a link to Beth's mods? That is very impressive!

I love the NSRT's, well actually all turbo-MOPAR's, and I think they are awesome. I just think the CSRT's have more potential that is quickly being found and shown.

As far as Aaron's car is concerned, the minor mods he has made have cost less than $1600 and he is in the 12's, not 3/10ths away.

[Reaper1]

My point was/is that some people are classifying the CSRT as a compact car. This is HARDLY the case! My '89 LeBaron 'vert weighed 3200#'s with me in it. That car is NOT a compact car. My '90 Daytona weighs right at 2900#'s with me in it. That is NOT a compact cat. My '88 Shelby Z is in the 3100# range(full stero, full size 16" Ninja spare, extra crap for FMIC and meth injection. ect.) with me in it. That too is NOT a compact car! My '89 Voyager SE Turbo weighed right at 3300#'s with the convert-a-bed in it, about 190#'s less without it...that is a VAN! See the pattern here? NONE of those above mentioned vehicles were EVER considered a compact car, adn still are not. they wiegh in the same range as the CSRT, and have similar overall dimensions(except the van). There is NO WAY the CSRT is a compact car! Period!

Also, yeah, 200#'s could be made up with driver, but hopefully BOTH cars have a driver! Unless one guy only weighs 100#'s and the other guy tips in at 300#'s, then the driver's weight really isn't going to effect the outcome THAT much!

[sherm1123]

My point was/is that some people are classifying the CSRT as a compact car. This is HARDLY the case! My '89 LeBaron 'vert weighed 3200#'s with me in it. That car is NOT a compact car. My '90 Daytona weighs right at 2900#'s with me in it. That is NOT a compact cat. My '88 Shelby Z is in the 3100# range(full stero, full size 16" Ninja spare, extra crap for FMIC and meth injection. ect.) with me in it. That too is NOT a compact car! My '89 Voyager SE Turbo weighed right at 3300#'s with the convert-a-bed in it, about 190#'s less without it...that is a VAN! See the pattern here? NONE of those above mentioned vehicles were EVER considered a compact car, adn still are not. they wiegh in the same range as the CSRT, and have similar overall dimensions(except the van). There is NO WAY the CSRT is a compact car! Period!

Also, yeah, 200#'s could be made up with driver, but hopefully BOTH cars have a driver! Unless one guy only weighs 100#'s and the other guy tips in at 300#'s, then the driver's weight really isn't going to effect the outcome THAT much!

So at 2960 lbs is the Neon a compact car?

Just for fun I Googled "Compact Car Reviews" and the first one to come up was the Dodge Caliber... I guess compact is one of those subjective terms like stock...

[sherm1123]

My point was/is that some people are classifying the CSRT as a compact car. This is HARDLY the case! My '89 LeBaron 'vert weighed 3200#'s with me in it. That car is NOT a compact car. My '90 Daytona weighs right at 2900#'s with me in it. That is NOT a compact cat. My '88 Shelby Z is in the 3100# range(full stero, full size 16" Ninja spare, extra crap for FMIC and meth injection. ect.) with me in it. That too is NOT a compact car! My '89 Voyager SE Turbo weighed right at 3300#'s with the convert-a-bed in it, about 190#'s less without it...that is a VAN! See the pattern here? NONE of those above mentioned vehicles were EVER considered a compact car, adn still are not. they wiegh in the same range as the CSRT, and have similar overall dimensions(except the van). There is NO WAY the CSRT is a compact car! Period!

Also, yeah, 200#'s could be made up with driver, but hopefully BOTH cars have a driver! Unless one guy only weighs 100#'s and the other guy tips in at 300#'s, then the driver's weight really isn't going to effect the outcome THAT much!


Some other interesting info I found while reviewing compact cars online:

The CSRT is 59.7 inches tall, thats 4 inches taller than the Mini Cooper and 8/10th of an inch (.8) taller than the Dodge Avenger, hardly the giant it has been described on these forums. The Mitsu Eclipse weighs in at 3538 lbs! Is it still a compact in your eyes? The Lancer is only 80 lbs lighter than the CSRT. I am really surprised that so much has been made over the size/weight/height of the CSRT as it is certainly right there in the middle of the compacts. The MS3 is 2 inches shorter and 30lbs lighter... Fun facts!

Here's the link I was using:
http://www.automotive.com/2008/12/chevrolet/cobalt/compare/index.html?Vehicle0.Make=Chevrolet&Vehicle0.Model=Cobalt&Vehicle0.Year=2008&Vehicle0.Trim=LS;_CP;FWD;L4&Vehicle1.Make=Dodge&Vehicle1.Model=Caliber&Vehicle1.Year=2008&Vehicle1.Trim=SRT4;_WG;FWD;L4&Vehicle2.Make=MINI&Vehicle2.Model=Cooper&Vehicle2.Year=2008&Vehicle2.Trim=;_CV;FWD;L4&PageNumber=3&TotalPages=3&Vehicle[3].Make=Mazda|50&Vehicle[3].Model=MAZDASPEED3|1532&Vehicle[3].Year=2008&Vehicle[3].Trim=Sport;_HB;FWD;L4|826;6;4;6

[contraption22]

Some other interesting info I found while reviewing compact cars online:

The CSRT is 59.7 inches tall, thats 4 inches taller than the Mini Cooper and 8/10th of an inch (.8) taller than the Dodge Avenger, hardy the giant it has been described on these forums. The Mitsu Eclipse weighs in at 3538 lbs! Is it still a compact in your eyes? The Lancer is only 80 lbs lighter than the CSRT. I am really surprised that so much has been made over the size/weight/height of the CSRT as it is certainly right there in the middle of the compacts. The MS3 is 2 inches shorter and 30lbs lighter... Fun facts!

Here's the link I was using:
http://www.automotive.com/2008/12/chevrolet/cobalt/compare/index.html?Vehicle0.Make=Chevrolet&Vehicle0.Model=Cobalt&Vehicle0.Year=2008&Vehicle0.Trim=LS;_CP;FWD;L4&Vehicle1.Make=Dodge&Vehicle1.Model=Caliber&Vehicle1.Year=2008&Vehicle1.Trim=SRT4;_WG;FWD;L4&Vehicle2.Make=MINI&Vehicle2.Model=Cooper&Vehicle2.Year=2008&Vehicle2.Trim=;_CV;FWD;L4&PageNumber=3&TotalPages=3&Vehicle[3].Make=Mazda|50&Vehicle[3].Model=MAZDASPEED3|1532&Vehicle[3].Year=2008&Vehicle[3].Trim=Sport;_HB;FWD;L4|826;6;4;6


So your point is that all "compact cars" are getting bigger and heavier? I'd agree with that.

[sherm1123]

So your point is that all "compact cars" are getting bigger and heavier? I'd agree with that.

Okay, that is true, but the point of my post is, is that the CSRT is a compact car and very comparable to the other vehicles in that classification as far a size and weight.

[Aries_Turbo]

my buddy eric's NSRT ran a 12.5 with stage 1, aftermarket WGA, exhaust, and intercooler and my 22x8x15 slicks. thats it. without the slicks, 12.9.

all cars are getting too fat. too much boring safety crap, too much sound deadening, too much wine and cheese complainer sell-outedness. :)

Brian

[Reaper1]

I think the tail is wagging the dog here. It used to be in the 60's that a Valiant was a "small car" and the Bug was a "compact car". Then in the '70's we saw the introduction of the Civic(then CVCC IIRC) and THAT was considered a compact car. That trend continued all the way through the '80's and mid '90's. Then all of a sudden the car companies decided that the American market no longer needed a "compact car". ALL of them started to get larger and heavier(The last true compact car that Dodge offered was the Colt, the Omni before that). I saw a gragh that was presented to a group of people by the president of SAE. It showed the weight of cars vs. power. IIRC 1980 or so marked the era of the lightest average vehicles(and also the lowest power). Since that time cars have gotten substantially heavier and more powerful. Dodge currently does NOT offer a "compact car". Period. I don't care what magazines say.

A Yaris is a compact car. A SMART car is a compact car. A Metro is a compact car. Simply put the Caliber is NOT a compact car, no matter how you cut it. It is a midsize car, on the verge of full size car weight! Cars now weigh as much, and often times MORE than cars from the '60's and 70's which are usually considered "heavy". The Gen 2 Neon IMHO is NOT a compact car either...it too is a midsize car. When did I ever bring up the Eclipse? Especially the new one!? I don't consider that car a compact, and never have!

We are being "told" by the auto industry and the magazines that "such and such car" is a compact, and instead of questioning it, the general public just ignorantly nods their heads "yes" and blindly accepts it as fact. The TRUTH is that most cars that are "labled" a compact are a midsize car! I think it's sad and retarded that imported cars are even changed dimensionally for the American market alone! We get wider seats that ANY other country on the planet!! Why?! I think that's a load of CRAP! If your @ss is too big to fit in a car, it isn't the car's or the manufacturer's fault!!! You need to loose some friggin wieght! Perfectly fine cars are redesigend becuase of this. The Aerial Atom is the perfect example! We don't get the REAL one here! We get a redeisgned one that has a wider overall frame so the wide seats for fat @sses can fit in it..then to make up for the added weight of the fat @ss driver and passenger they had to stick a different engine in it! What a load of CRAP! And the public just simles and accepts it and thinks nothing of it, or that it makes us even that much more special....COME ON!!! Open your friggin eyes!!

I know that it probably won't happen, but the general public needs to start questioning the antics of the auto industry. If a car was built with the "quality" it is built with today in the late '80's it would have gotten torn to shreds for being cheap, plasticy, and boring! Most reviews now are talking about how good they are...I simply dissagree! They are good compared to WHAT?! The Barbie Corvette at Toys-R-Us? Even cars that I consider better built than the Caliber are cheap to me! Maybe I'm stuck in the past, or fixed in my ways, but I honestly can't see how a huge chunk of hard plastic that fils the cabin with some boring @ss monotonous color that you can still see the mold lines on can be considered "quality"!? It looks like somebody took the obolisk from 2001 and shoved it in the car! They are put together like Snap-Tite models. The carpet is thinner than stuff you can get for doll houses! EVERYTHING is designed to wear out! They WANT you to HAVE to replace things in the car so they can make money off of it even after it is paid for! This is BS...and the GP lets it happen, accpets it, and then they are brainwashed into liking it and thinking it is "quality"! No way. I don't buy that for a second, and I really wish that people would open their eyes and do the same!

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.....

[t3rse]

you can't argue with a wall

why don't you get some info that doesn't come from chryco: the s3 nsrt makes more than 300 I can assure you.

[sherm1123]

you can't argue with a wall

why don't you get some info that doesn't come from chryco: the s3 nsrt makes more than 300 I can assure you.


Okay, name your sources, I just figured that the company that is selling the kit would have the most accurate information on the Stage kits. If you think MOPAR Performances info on their kits is wrong, show me why and where I can find better info. Should I check with GM?

Do you have answers for any of the other questions I asked?

[sherm1123]

I think the tail is wagging the dog here. It used to be in the 60's that a Valiant was a "small car" and the Bug was a "compact car". Then in the '70's we saw the introduction of the Civic(then CVCC IIRC) and THAT was considered a compact car. That trend continued all the way through the '80's and mid '90's. Then all of a sudden the car companies decided that the American market no longer needed a "compact car". ALL of them started to get larger and heavier(The last true compact car that Dodge offered was the Colt, the Omni before that). I saw a gragh that was presented to a group of people by the president of SAE. It showed the weight of cars vs. power. IIRC 1980 or so marked the era of the lightest average vehicles(and also the lowest power). Since that time cars have gotten substantially heavier and more powerful. Dodge currently does NOT offer a "compact car". Period. I don't care what magazines say.

A Yaris is a compact car. A SMART car is a compact car. A Metro is a compact car. Simply put the Caliber is NOT a compact car, no matter how you cut it. It is a midsize car, on the verge of full size car weight! Cars now weigh as much, and often times MORE than cars from the '60's and 70's which are usually considered "heavy". The Gen 2 Neon IMHO is NOT a compact car either...it too is a midsize car. When did I ever bring up the Eclipse? Especially the new one!? I don't consider that car a compact, and never have!

We are being "told" by the auto industry and the magazines that "such and such car" is a compact, and instead of questioning it, the general public just ignorantly nods their heads "yes" and blindly accepts it as fact. The TRUTH is that most cars that are "labled" a compact are a midsize car! I think it's sad and retarded that imported cars are even changed dimensionally for the American market alone! We get wider seats that ANY other country on the planet!! Why?! I think that's a load of CRAP! If your @ss is too big to fit in a car, it isn't the car's or the manufacturer's fault!!! You need to loose some friggin wieght! Perfectly fine cars are redesigend becuase of this. The Aerial Atom is the perfect example! We don't get the REAL one here! We get a redeisgned one that has a wider overall frame so the wide seats for fat @sses can fit in it..then to make up for the added weight of the fat @ss driver and passenger they had to stick a different engine in it! What a load of CRAP! And the public just simles and accepts it and thinks nothing of it, or that it makes us even that much more special....COME ON!!! Open your friggin eyes!!

I know that it probably won't happen, but the general public needs to start questioning the antics of the auto industry. If a car was built with the "quality" it is built with today in the late '80's it would have gotten torn to shreds for being cheap, plasticy, and boring! Most reviews now are talking about how good they are...I simply dissagree! They are good compared to WHAT?! The Barbie Corvette at Toys-R-Us? Even cars that I consider better built than the Caliber are cheap to me! Maybe I'm stuck in the past, or fixed in my ways, but I honestly can't see how a huge chunk of hard plastic that fils the cabin with some boring @ss monotonous color that you can still see the mold lines on can be considered "quality"!? It looks like somebody took the obolisk from 2001 and shoved it in the car! They are put together like Snap-Tite models. The carpet is thinner than stuff you can get for doll houses! EVERYTHING is designed to wear out! They WANT you to HAVE to replace things in the car so they can make money off of it even after it is paid for! This is BS...and the GP lets it happen, accpets it, and then they are brainwashed into liking it and thinking it is "quality"! No way. I don't buy that for a second, and I really wish that people would open their eyes and do the same!

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.....

I certainly understand your argument and agree with it to a certain extent. I'm not suggesting what the automobile industry should label a car, I am just stating how they HAVE labeled cars, including the Caliber. The fact that you don't agree with the auto industry as a whole, does not change the current classification system in which the Caliber is classified as a compact car. Most of the examples you gave are classified as sub-compacts I believe...

If we are taking --- surveys, I'd say mine is average size. :D

[Aries_Turbo]

my buddies NSRT stage 3 makes 360+ at the wheels on HOM and with just a larger intercooler and exhaust.

Brian

[sherm1123]

my buddies NSRT stage 3 makes 360+ at the wheels on HOM and with just a larger intercooler and exhaust.

Brian

Very cool! So how much does he have in upgrades? $6200 for the Stage 3 and $2000 for exhaust and intercooler?

[Aries_Turbo]

he bought the car for 10.5K with it all done.

i see your sarcasm though.... you dont have to buy stage 1,2 and 3 to get stage 3, you just buy stage 3. it used to be 3600$ last i looked.

i dont know what a perrin 3" runs and an intercooler. you can do it with a stock intercooler though. if you are smarter than the average SRT guy that will pay for expensive parts, you just take them two stock SRT intercoolers and have the end tanks combined into one. thats as good or better than the $$$ aftermarket ones and waaaaay cheaper. wherever there are car guys, there is a few guys that have a tig welder and like to help.

you say that the caliber is so much cheaper than a NSRT for power upgrades but i disagree. SCT flash of a stock SRT ecu to make it a stage 3 computer, homemade manifold and large turbo setup and the intercooler i described above and a 3" exhaust and some dyno time to dial in any differences that the non SRT turbofold may bring and youd make more power than any stage package. if you have the ability to make things, making power is cheap.

Brian

[contraption22]

Very cool! So how much does he have in upgrades? $6200 for the Stage 3 and $2000 for exhaust and intercooler?


Where the heck did you get those numbers from? lol.

[sherm1123]

Where the heck did you get those numbers from? lol.

They were questions, as in how much did he spend, $2000?

The $6200 comes from the advertised cost of Stage 1 through 3 from Mopar Performance website. I know that most good 3" TBE's will run close to $1000 and I have no idea what intercooler your friend has, so I just guessed at $1000 for that, thus my question as to how much he has spent.

I agree that making the parts yourself and tuning yourself is much cheaper than buying the Stage kits from MOPAR, but you stated that he had Stage 3 so I assumed he had bought it.

[contraption22]

The $6200 comes from the advertised cost of Stage 1 through 3 from Mopar Performance website. I know that most good 3" TBE's will run close to $1000 and I have no idea what intercooler your friend has, so I just guessed at $1000 for that, thus my question as to how much he has spent.


Stage 3 is only $3600 MSRP. You know you don't need to buy Stage 1 or 2 to get stage 3, right?

[sherm1123]

Stage 3 is only $3600 MSRP. You know you don't need to buy Stage 1 or 2 to get stage 3, right?

Where are you seeing that MSRP is $3600? I checked 3 different sites and they are all showing MSRP as $4199? Yes I am aware that the kits can be bought separately.

[contraption22]

Where are you seeing that MSRP is $3600? I checked 3 different sites and they are all showing MSRP as $4199? Yes I am aware that the kits can be bought separately.

Sorry, I thought that was MSRP. Turns out it's just the common going price.

[t3rse]

Okay, name your sources, I just figured that the company that is selling the kit would have the most accurate information on the Stage kits. If you think MOPAR Performances info on their kits is wrong, show me why and where I can find better info. Should I check with GM?

Do you have answers for any of the other questions I asked?

Sport Compact Car Volume 16 Issue 11: Chyrco's test mule made 369whp and 383ftlbs

That guy mentioned earlier with the 12 on stock mechanicals didn't need a turbo wheel upgrade or A HOGGED OUT PLASTIC INTAKE MANIFOLD to run 12s. Stock mechanicals does not include upgraded compressors. All it takes to make a NSRT run 12s is a gate clamp, a hack tune job, and slicks. Hell, the red shed uses nitrous. There are NSRTs on stock turbos running 11s on spray....

either way, 4k for 380hp is cheaper than what you'll pay Darrel to achieve the same goals in the caliber.

[sherm1123]

Sport Compact Car Volume 16 Issue 11: Chyrco's test mule made 369whp and 383ftlbs

That guy mentioned earlier with the 12 on stock mechanicals didn't need a turbo wheel upgrade or A HOGGED OUT PLASTIC INTAKE MANIFOLD to run 12s. Stock mechanicals does not include upgraded compressors. All it takes to make a NSRT run 12s is a gate clamp, a hack tune job, and slicks. Hell, the red shed uses nitrous. There are NSRTs on stock turbos running 11s on spray....

either way, 4k for 380hp is cheaper than what you'll pay Darrel to achieve the same goals in the caliber.

So are you stating the "test mule" from your article is the typical HP achieved from a Stage 3 kit on the majority of NSRT's even though it is advertised at 300 HP and is not street legal?

I'm not sure who Darrell is, and I'm not paying anyone anything... but if I were going to make changes the Stage 2 kit from Realtune is around $2000 and produces the same HP even at the #'s you are quoting for the Stage 3 kit, oh and still leaves your car street legal and usable as a daily driver.

So if its so easy to get into the 12's in the NSRT, why is the world record 12.65? The stock advertised times I found from your magazine was 14.2 for the NSRT.

Not that I don't believe your friend's claims for HP and 1/4 mile times, but are there any links with time slips and dyno's scanned such as I have shown for the cars and times I've referenced?

[Reaper1]

You're kidding right? You don't know who Darrell is?! Come on! DCR!! Darrell Cox Racing...the people who built "The Red Shed"...the "flagship" for the CSRT world.

Honestly comparing stage numbers is pointless in this case! If you want to be technical the "stage 2" kit that is offered by the aftermarket for the CSRT is more like the "stage 3" kit that was offered by MOPAR. The only reasons that the MOPAR stage 3 was not street legal was becuase it was tuned to use unleaded race fuel and the turbofold counted as modifying the emissions of the car...so therefore it revoked its "street legal" status.

Despite some people's experiences and claims, 14.2 IS about the average 1/4 mile time for a stock NSRT with an ok driver. A better driver could probably get it to go faster. What is so bad about 12.65? That is MID 12's!! if you want to be technical 12.99 IS a 12 second car! So...it is probably VERY possible that most of the 12 second NSRT's are running closer to 12.8, but that's STILL 12's!

[slowbrokedodge]

Alot of these cheap so called performance cars are just that very cheap and that my problem, for 20-25k$ I think people should get more for there money, mabye its just my age but if the interior sucks and is full of plastic that just feels bad, than I know its not the car for me, and thats my main complaint about the caliber in gereral, even dodges more expencive cars IE charger and 300 there plastic dashes just plain suck. So to end my rant, I dont care if the make it out of cheap plastic just make me think its better than what it is.

[Aries_Turbo]

Alot of these cheap so called performance cars are just that very cheap and that my problem, for 20-25k$ I think people should get more for there money, mabye its just my age but if the interior sucks and is full of plastic that just feels bad, than I know its not the car for me, and thats my main complaint about the caliber in gereral, even dodges more expencive cars IE charger and 300 there plastic dashes just plain suck. So to end my rant, I dont care if the make it out of cheap plastic just make me think its better than what it is.

quit reading car and driver. problem solved.

Sherm..... either you are playing dumb or you dont know how to do your homework. i dont know which to believe.

Brian

[slowbrokedodge]

quit reading car and driver. problem solved.

Sherm..... either you are playing dumb or you dont know how to do your homework. i dont know which to believe.

Brian

this had nothing to do with car and driver, all you have to do is go sit in them. (as I have done) and you will soon see what I mean

[sherm1123]

You're kidding right? You don't know who Darrell is?! Come on! DCR!! Darrell Cox Racing...the people who built "The Red Shed"...the "flagship" for the CSRT world.

Honestly comparing stage numbers is pointless in this case! If you want to be technical the "stage 2" kit that is offered by the aftermarket for the CSRT is more like the "stage 3" kit that was offered by MOPAR. The only reasons that the MOPAR stage 3 was not street legal was becuase it was tuned to use unleaded race fuel and the turbofold counted as modifying the emissions of the car...so therefore it revoked its "street legal" status.

Despite some people's experiences and claims, 14.2 IS about the average 1/4 mile time for a stock NSRT with an ok driver. A better driver could probably get it to go faster. What is so bad about 12.65? That is MID 12's!! if you want to be technical 12.99 IS a 12 second car! So...it is probably VERY possible that most of the 12 second NSRT's are running closer to 12.8, but that's STILL 12's!

Sorry, I'm not that familiar with DCR, other than the Red Shed, which as I've said several times is not a typical CSRT and I certainly don't consider it any kind of flagship. I'm more impressed with regular guys, like me and you, who can spend a small amount of money and get considerable HP gains out of their car, whatever that is.

The Stage kits were brought up to try and find out how to "easily" turn a NSRT into a 12 second car that has been repeately mentioned here. I was just wanting to know how and if it was a Stage kit that would do it. If the Realtune kit I referenced is similar to the Stage 3 then it is an even better bargain!

I think 12.65 is amazing! It is a world record! What I don't understand is all the posts saying it is easy to do... If it was easy to do for the average driver/car I would doubt it would be the record. I love the NSRT's and any 12 second car is VERY fast, I just doubt that there are allot of slightly modified NSRT's in the 12's. I doubt that it is easy to do, or cheap for that matter.

[sherm1123]

quit reading car and driver. problem solved.

Sherm..... either you are playing dumb or you dont know how to do your homework. i dont know which to believe.

Brian

I didn't write that post if that is what your comment was about...

[sherm1123]

this had nothing to do with car and driver, all you have to do is go sit in them. (as I have done) and you will soon see what I mean


I'm confused...what is your cars dash made out of? Next time instead of just sitting in the CSRT, drive it!

[contraption22]

I think 12.65 is amazing! It is a world record! What I don't understand is all the posts saying it is easy to do... If it was easy to do for the average driver/car I would doubt it would be the record. I love the NSRT's and any 12 second car is VERY fast, I just doubt that there are allot of slightly modified NSRT's in the 12's. I doubt that it is easy to do, or cheap for that matter.

You'd be highly mistaken. Getting a NSRT-4 in the 12's is common and relatively easy. Mine ran mid 13's all stock, but with slicks.

[sherm1123]

You'd be highly mistaken. Getting a NSRT-4 in the 12's is common and relatively easy. Mine ran mid 13's all stock, but with slicks.


If 12 second NSRT's are common, then there should be lots of verifiable examples. The only one I have seen is the world record holder of 12.65. I'm not saying that there aren't cars in the 12's, I'm just wondering where the evidence is and what modifications were made to the cars to get them there. That is where this question started- what does it take in modifications and money to get a 12 second NSRT? Show me. If it is as common as has been stated several times now, then this should be a very simple question to answer.

[slowbrokedodge]

I'm confused...what is your cars dash made out of? Next time instead of just sitting in the CSRT, drive it!

if you remember in my other posts I have driven a CSRT, and didnt buy one, it has nothing to do with the dash being made of plastic is how they make it, I just hate the huge thin hard plastic dashes, they can at least make them feel good to the touch.

[contraption22]

If 12 second NSRT's are common, then there should be lots of verifiable examples. The only one I have seen is the world record holder of 12.65. I'm not saying that there aren't cars in the 12's, I'm just wondering where the evidence is and what modifications were made to the cars to get them there. That is where this question started- what does it take in modifications and money to get a 12 second NSRT? Show me. If it is as common as has been stated several times now, then this should be a very simple question to answer.

Check some of these out.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f113/e1-e2-e3-timeslip-database-368939/

Granted, not all of these took the cheapest route. Looking thru I have found many of them have wasted money on mods that may or may not work. But the direct route to the 12's is not expensive at all.

[Aries_Turbo]

this had nothing to do with car and driver, all you have to do is go sit in them. (as I have done) and you will soon see what I mean

No i have sat in them and touched the dash. truth is, no one started complaining about interiors until magazines did. cars in the past had dashes made of metal for goodness sake. that and vinyl with foam under it (ie cheap) that cracked and split.

when i first looked at a plastic dash i was like "cool, now it wont split in two in a few years."

are you sleeping on the dash? no? then it doesnt need to be soft.

besides, if you are complaining about cheap interiors, why are you on this forum anyway! :)


I think 12.65 is amazing! It is a world record! What I don't understand is all the posts saying it is easy to do... If it was easy to do for the average driver/car I would doubt it would be the record. I love the NSRT's and any 12 second car is VERY fast, I just doubt that there are allot of slightly modified NSRT's in the 12's. I doubt that it is easy to do, or cheap for that matter.

there are. i have local friend with them. stock turbos. 12's. we've even shown you examples and you still run your mouth that its impossible.


I didn't write that post if that is what your comment was about...

no but you wrote the stuff above with ridiculous prices that i was talking about.


If 12 second NSRT's are common, then there should be lots of verifiable examples. The only one I have seen is the world record holder of 12.65. I'm not saying that there aren't cars in the 12's, I'm just wondering where the evidence is and what modifications were made to the cars to get them there. That is where this question started- what does it take in modifications and money to get a 12 second NSRT? Show me. If it is as common as has been stated several times now, then this should be a very simple question to answer.

again, see above.


if you remember in my other posts I have driven a CSRT, and didnt buy one, it has nothing to do with the dash being made of plastic is how they make it, I just hate the huge thin hard plastic dashes, they can at least make them feel good to the touch.

quit touching the dash and touch the steering wheel and shifter then. who cares about the dash. why would you want companies to drive the price of the car up by putting leather and other useless stuff on the dash when they could put it into the seats, the engine and suspension.... ie things that matter.

im tired of people complaining about dashes. its stupid. btw, what do you drive?

Brian

[t3rse]

quit touching the dash and touch the steering wheel and shifter then. who cares about the dash. why would you want companies to drive the price of the car up by putting leather and other useless stuff on the dash when they could put it into the seats, the engine and suspension.... ie things that matter.

im tired of people complaining about dashes. its stupid. btw, what do you drive?


:hail::hail:

[sherm1123]

Check some of these out.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f113/e1-e2-e3-timeslip-database-368939/

Granted, not all of these took the cheapest route. Looking thru I have found many of them have wasted money on mods that may or may not work. But the direct route to the 12's is not expensive at all.


Thanks, I read the first 75 posts and I only saw one time slip and it was a 13.45. I did see lots of bragging though. I especially liked the guy who sarcastically posted the 180 mph trap speeds. Maybe the time slips are on the last page... Most of the posts listed no mods or cost which is what I am wanting- proof of 12 second runs, what mods where done and what it cost them to get there.

According to the list on the first page of the forum you linked, there are only 13 unverified cars in the 12's. Is this correct? Where are the 100's of examples previously mentioned? Most of the forum's I frequent require time slips and dynos to keep the bored high schoolers from clogging up the posts with, "my best friend's uncle's Dad ran a 11.1 and its true because my neighbor saw it" type posts... The other thing that I did notice on the few that listed mods, many were running nitrous and alcohol injection.

***Updated- I read through all 168 posts. There were 4 timeslips posted, 3 of which were in the 12's, two of those being cars from tuner shops. No mods or costs were listed.

Like I previously said, I have no doubt there are lots of cars in the 12's, I just can't seem to find proof or what they are doing to get there and how much it cost.

[sherm1123]

if you remember in my other posts I have driven a CSRT, and didnt buy one, it has nothing to do with the dash being made of plastic is how they make it, I just hate the huge thin hard plastic dashes, they can at least make them feel good to the touch.

Okay, to each his own. I guess I just look at different things in a car as opposed to the softness of the dash...

[sherm1123]

there are. i have local friend with them. stock turbos. 12's. we've even shown you examples and you still run your mouth that its impossible.

no but you wrote the stuff above with ridiculous prices that i was talking about.

again, see above.

Brian

I'm sorry, I must have missed the links to your friend's time slips, mods, and cost. Please repost. I've certainly never said it is impossible to get any car into the 12's and I certainly do agree there are many NSRT's in the 12's, maybe not the 100's that was previously mentioned though. My question is what did they do to get it there and what did it cost them?- oh and if you could show me a time slip to keep everyone honest that would be nice too.

I've answered these questions for the CSRT and shown my proof, why has it been so hard for anyone to do the same with the NSRT? Everyone has friends, show me the proof.

As I've stated, and was verified by another member's retraction, the prices I listed for the stage kits came straight from Mopar Performance, which last time I checked is who makes and sells the stage kits. The cost of the stage kits is kind of where this discussion started, me saying it seems to be cheaper to get a CSRT into the 12's and everyone disagreeing and not showing me any proof to back up their statements. The only part of this equation that I know for the NSRT's is the cost of the Stage Kits and using that as a starting point it seems to cost 1/2 as much to get the CSRT into the 12's.

I'm still waiting on the education promised me from another poster. Until then I guess I can safely assume that the CSRT is easier and less expensive to get into the 12's than the NSRT.

[Aries_Turbo]

oh so you are one of those guys. :rolleyes:

talon2gdsm on www.roclife.org. he has a stock turbo srt with few mods that ran 12.5 on my slicks with me standing right there and others. dont believe me. i dont care. big exhaust, big cooler, aftermarket WGA and Stage1. thats it. saw it with my own eyes. I helped him with the slicks with my own hands.

i dont know why you dont get it through your thick skull that you dont need stage 1, 2 AND 3 to make a stage 3 car.... you only need stage 3 to make a stage 3 car. so its 4100$ for ONLY stage 3 plus a big exhaust (local custom place near me will make a sidepipe 3" for <200$) and a big intercooler (local shop welded me some coolers together for <200$ IE use two Stock SRT coolers) to get a car into the 11's for less than $5k + the cost of the car which could already be had for 19k new if you were smart so i would say that is cheaper than a caliber SRT.

just because you are too dumb to find the proper information by your own self doesnt mean that it cant be done. you are starting to piss me off with your ridiculousness and you even had a NSRT-4 and a GLH. i guess the rule that all SRT owners that had old TD's are cool isnt true.

BTW, i can get a NSRT into the 12s for less than 500$. spray it.

Brian

[t3rse]

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f28/official-e-t-track-times-list-1-4-mile-350017/

you do realize that not everyone with an srt hangs out on the internet all the time don't you? there are a few 600 hp cars running around on stock internals. There are a few 600 and 700 hp srts in this area, and these people don't waste their time trying to educate stupid --------.

lets see someone crest 600hp in a caliber on stock internals. then we'll get to see bits of plastic manifolds all over the track along with the god awesome vvt.

[sherm1123]

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f28/official-e-t-track-times-list-1-4-mile-350017/

you do realize that not everyone with an srt hangs out on the internet all the time don't you? there are a few 600 hp cars running around on stock internals. There are a few 600 and 700 hp srts in this area, and these people don't waste their time trying to educate stupid --------.

lets see someone crest 600hp in a caliber on stock internals. then we'll get to see bits of plastic manifolds all over the track along with the god awesome vvt.

So your link states that there are no longer time slips listed on the site. It does have a listing of the fastest NSRT's built and shows 50 in the 12 second or better range, most highly modified and obviously not streetable. Oh, and DCR, that was previously mentioned as the CSRT god is the NSRT god too I guess as his car is at the top of the list. Is this your proof that 12 second NSRT's are cheap and easy to produce?

When and if someone does get 600Hp out of a CSRT I will certainly post information about it along with the proof that it exists.

[sherm1123]

oh so you are one of those guys. :rolleyes:

talon2gdsm on www.roclife.org. he has a stock turbo srt with few mods that ran 12.5 on my slicks with me standing right there and others. dont believe me. i dont care. big exhaust, big cooler, aftermarket WGA and Stage1. thats it. saw it with my own eyes. I helped him with the slicks with my own hands.

i dont know why you dont get it through your thick skull that you dont need stage 1, 2 AND 3 to make a stage 3 car.... you only need stage 3 to make a stage 3 car. so its 4100$ for ONLY stage 3 plus a big exhaust (local custom place near me will make a sidepipe 3" for <200$) and a big intercooler (local shop welded me some coolers together for <200$ IE use two Stock SRT coolers) to get a car into the 11's for less than $5k + the cost of the car which could already be had for 19k new if you were smart so i would say that is cheaper than a caliber SRT.

just because you are too dumb to find the proper information by your own self doesnt mean that it cant be done. you are starting to piss me off with your ridiculousness and you even had a NSRT-4 and a GLH. i guess the rule that all SRT owners that had old TD's are cool isnt true.

BTW, i can get a NSRT into the 12s for less than 500$. spray it.

Brian

I'm happy for your friend and it's not that I don't believe you, I'm just used to seeing proof for HP and 1/4 mile claims.

I'm glad you feel that an 11 second NSRT can be built for $5000, now show me one. Oh, and how much do the two intercoolers you are having welded together cost for those of us who would have to buy them before welding them?

I'm sorry that my questioning and lack of agreeing with you has caused you anger. Maybe it is my "thick skull" and "dumbness", but I can assure you that I'm not trying to "piss you off" and your view of my "coolness" is of all importance to me!

The fact that I have owned an NSRT and other turbo-mopars is exactly why I am asking these questions.

[Reaper1]

I know I started to notice a decline in interior quality with the coming of the 3rd gen Dakota. That thing is built so crappy inside...I'd MUCH rather have a 2nd gen. I didn't need a magazine to tell me what I saw with my own eyes.

Why would I quit touching something that DOES matter! If you are in the front of the car, you look at the dash the ENTIRE time you are in it! Asthetics play a BIG role in whether or not I like a car. If I don't like the way something looks or feels(ESPECIALLY sheap steering wheels that still have the mold lines on them and shifters that have the knobs come off...yes I just took a stab at the NSRT!) I don't care how fast or how much power it has, I won't want it to drive! Unlike a lot of people on this planet I actually LIKE to drive my car long distances by myself and such becuase I LIKE the way it FEELS!

If they are going to put money in the engine and suspension, then DO IT instead of half-@ssing it!

As for your comment about the hard dashes not splitting, no they don't...they CRUMBLE!! They litterally FALL APART! There have been several cases with the new Ram and the new Dakota where this has happened. Hard plastic is attacked by the sun, the heat, hard blows by inadament objects...vinyl, as long as it is taken care of, will last a very long time(unless to tear it, but that's a whole other issue)! The vinyl in my car is doing MUCH better than the hard plastic bits that are exposed to the sunlight! Also, vinyl can be repaired or replaced easier than hard plastic. The reason they got away from using it? It was CHEAPER to NOT use it! Less steps in manufacturing, less raw materials, less expensive!

When I buy a car to drive, I buy a complete package...not just an engine, suspension, steering wheel, and shifter. The whole thing matters to me! If everybody is just so concerned about the raw numbers, why do we even care what the outside looks like or the inside looks and feels like?! Why do we drive different cars then? I'm just saying....


truth is, no one started complaining about interiors until magazines did. cars in the past had dashes made of metal for goodness sake. that and vinyl with foam under it (ie cheap) that cracked and split.



quit touching the dash and touch the steering wheel and shifter then. who cares about the dash. why would you want companies to drive the price of the car up by putting leather and other useless stuff on the dash when they could put it into the seats, the engine and suspension.... ie things that matter.

im tired of people complaining about dashes. its stupid. btw, what do you drive?

[1991SpiritES]

Okay, to each his own. I guess I just look at different things in a car as opposed to the softness of the dash...


Yeah I do too. It's called quality. That is one of the reasons I don't have my NSRT anymore. I haven't sat in a CSRT yet put have sat in a regular Caliber, and it is said to say it but I think the interior quality of my old GLHS was far much nicer than the Caliber and the NSRT that i owned or even the 1st gen neon I owned.

[1984rampage]

The quality of the new cars do SUCK. I just went and sat in my moms new ford fusion and everything is snapon plastic crap. The glovebox is all plastic that is easily breakable and the quality all around looks like crap. I honestly like my shelby chargers dash/interior much better.

[Aries_Turbo]

I'm glad you feel that an 11 second NSRT can be built for $5000, now show me one. Oh, and how much do the two intercoolers you are having welded together cost for those of us who would have to buy them before welding them?

problem is that the generation that is primarily buying srt-4's doesnt have a good grasp on saving money so they will throw thousands of dollars in useless parts into a car because someone like Darrel says that they need it. so a car that could have ran 12's with a few hundred dollars in parts runs 12's with thousands of dollars in parts because the owner is dumb and doesnt want to take the time to make things themselves. im not saying you do this but this is the difference between me and guys 10 years younger than me alot of times.

I dunno.... I got a SRT intercooler for 50$ and i could get another one for the same price pretty easy locally. so thats still only 250$ for a large intercooler. and even if I didnt want to change the exhaust, i could still put a cutout on the car in the stock downpipe for the track and save even more money.

I dont know why you want proof so bad. its like you are saying that the old SRT sucks and the caliber is the best and we all have to prove you wrong. its a waste of time spent arguing on the internet when i could be out installing my alky system that i made myself for little money.

Brian

[sherm1123]

problem is that the generation that is primarily buying srt-4's doesnt have a good grasp on saving money so they will throw thousands of dollars in useless parts into a car because someone like Darrel says that they need it. so a car that could have ran 12's with a few hundred dollars in parts runs 12's with thousands of dollars in parts because the owner is dumb and doesnt want to take the time to make things themselves. im not saying you do this but this is the difference between me and guys 10 years younger than me alot of times.

I dunno.... I got a SRT intercooler for 50$ and i could get another one for the same price pretty easy locally. so thats still only 250$ for a large intercooler. and even if I didnt want to change the exhaust, i could still put a cutout on the car in the stock downpipe for the track and save even more money.

I dont know why you want proof so bad. its like you are saying that the old SRT sucks and the caliber is the best and we all have to prove you wrong. its a waste of time spent arguing on the internet when i could be out installing my alky system that i made myself for little money.

Brian

Brian,
I totally agree with what you are saying. I think that allot of the tuners do sell parts at huge mark-ups and you could do the work yourself and get the same or better results for a fraction of the cost.

I love the NSRT and enjoyed every minute I owned mine- all 126,000 miles. It was a great car, the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It was fast and incredibly fun. But just because I love one vehicle doesn't mean I can't see the possibilities in another vehicle and love it too. I think the CSRT is an evolution of the NSRT. I think the SRT team saw what worked on the NSRT and added on from there. They saw what was missing from the NSRT, what had to be added later and put it on from the start.

If you are comfortable ending this discussion that is fine, and time will certainly tell which of us was right. Good luck on the alcohol cooler.
Sherman

[sherm1123]

Yeah I do too. It's called quality. That is one of the reasons I don't have my NSRT anymore. I haven't sat in a CSRT yet put have sat in a regular Caliber, and it is said to say it but I think the interior quality of my old GLHS was far much nicer than the Caliber and the NSRT that i owned or even the 1st gen neon I owned.

Again, to each his own... But I'm guessing if you picked 10 people off the street all 10 would pick the interior of the CSRT over the GLHS, but of course that is just my opinion.

[sherm1123]

I know I started to notice a decline in interior quality with the coming of the 3rd gen Dakota. That thing is built so crappy inside...I'd MUCH rather have a 2nd gen. I didn't need a magazine to tell me what I saw with my own eyes.

Why would I quit touching something that DOES matter! If you are in the front of the car, you look at the dash the ENTIRE time you are in it! Asthetics play a BIG role in whether or not I like a car. If I don't like the way something looks or feels(ESPECIALLY sheap steering wheels that still have the mold lines on them and shifters that have the knobs come off...yes I just took a stab at the NSRT!) I don't care how fast or how much power it has, I won't want it to drive! Unlike a lot of people on this planet I actually LIKE to drive my car long distances by myself and such becuase I LIKE the way it FEELS!

If they are going to put money in the engine and suspension, then DO IT instead of half-@ssing it!

As for your comment about the hard dashes not splitting, no they don't...they CRUMBLE!! They litterally FALL APART! There have been several cases with the new Ram and the new Dakota where this has happened. Hard plastic is attacked by the sun, the heat, hard blows by inadament objects...vinyl, as long as it is taken care of, will last a very long time(unless to tear it, but that's a whole other issue)! The vinyl in my car is doing MUCH better than the hard plastic bits that are exposed to the sunlight! Also, vinyl can be repaired or replaced easier than hard plastic. The reason they got away from using it? It was CHEAPER to NOT use it! Less steps in manufacturing, less raw materials, less expensive!

When I buy a car to drive, I buy a complete package...not just an engine, suspension, steering wheel, and shifter. The whole thing matters to me! If everybody is just so concerned about the raw numbers, why do we even care what the outside looks like or the inside looks and feels like?! Why do we drive different cars then? I'm just saying....

I don't disagree that the longevity of most vehicles has shortened, and that cars aren't made to last 30 years anymore, but that doesn't necessarily mean quality has also went down. Quality has to be tapered with cost- what items do people feel are the most important and what do they expect and what will they pay extra for. I believe most of us drive low end performance vehicles which are marketed more towards price than amenities. I know that is what I look for. As long as the dash stays put, I don't really care what it is made out of. It in no way effects my driving experience negatively...but that's just me.

So, just as a reference point, what vehicle do you feel does have a great dash, both soft and pleasing to the eye?

[slowbrokedodge]

I love my dodge's and have respect that the company has survied this long, but the MS3 is just a much better car all around than the CSRT, anyone else that wants to back me chime in. P.S. I like to have carpet in the trunk. oh yeah and a spare tire so when I get a flat I can change it.

[sherm1123]

I love my dodge's and have respect that the company has survied this long, but the MS3 is just a much better car all around than the CSRT, anyone else that wants to back me chime in. P.S. I like to have carpet in the trunk. oh yeah and a spare tire so when I get a flat I can change it.

Then by all means, buy it! I'm not sure what trunk you are referring to as the MS3 is a hatchback. My CSRT has a carpeted hatch area, not that I care and the spare tire is certainly not a weight or cost I would want added. I never once changed a tire on my NSRT and if I have a flat the car comes with an air pump and fix a flat stuff to get me a few miles to get it fixed. I guess there's always AAA!

I agree that the performance of the MS3 is comparable, as is the cost to the CSRT. But in my opinion the looks are worth the win in the CSRT's category! There was actually a link on another forum telling people how to tell an MS3 from the base M3 as they look so much alike! No one will ever mistake my CSRT for a base Caliber. The aggressive looks alone made me like the CSRT over the MS3.

My favorite CSRT story so far is when I dropped my wife off at the Mazda dealer to pick up her M3 and several mechanics and the service manager all came out to look at my car and say how great they thought it looked! One even said how boring he thought the MS3's looked in comparison.

Of course I am VERY biased and have already made my decision! :eyebrows:

[88_pacifica]

So, just as a reference point, what vehicle do you feel does have a great dash, both soft and pleasing to the eye?


Of course I am VERY biased and have already made my decision! :eyebrows:

:hail: ;) :nod: :D



http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/GN-interior.jpg

[sherm1123]

:hail: ;) :nod: :D



http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/GN-interior.jpg

Nate,
That is a very nice dash!

[contraption22]

Thanks Nate, makes me miss my '85 Monte SS. I always wanted to swap a Turbo Buick drivetrain into it.

[88_pacifica]

Nate,
That is a very nice dash!


Thanks Nate, makes me miss my '85 Monte SS. I always wanted to swap a Turbo Buick drivetrain into it.

My experience has been that 70's hard plastic thin vinyl-covered foam sucked and cracked. 80's/early 90's vinyl covered foam interiors were much more durable and lasted longer. From about 93 on... they started getting "chincey" to quote antoher post. But, it really all depends on the owner and their maintenance history too. To say that quality of the materials/workmanship is getting a ton better would be a BIG misnomer and is just dumb IMO, HOWEVER, you have to keep it in context with the time period. Of course a car from a HIGHER PLATFORM and older vintage will seem better, but remember, the labor costs were lower and materials were totally different and served a different purpose.

Lots-o-plastic= cheap-an-crappy. Low cost= plastic "snap together" parts. A quality car is indicated by how many screws it has usually. A scew costs more and requires additional labor to install. Therefore, the way to indicate the good from bad?

Count your screws inside and see who has more... :nod: ;) :amen:

[Reaper1]

^^Count the screws so you don't get screwed! LOL I like it!

To answer the question, I REALLY like my '90 Daytona's dash. I Like the layout. I like the style. It's taken a long time for interiors to catch up to that IMHO.

Next has to be the older G/J bodies. The 2nd Gen Dakota's are nice.

I know these two three are out of the price range, but 3000GT,300ZX(old and new), Supra(old and new) were all nice. Thisone is in the same catagory: RX7...all of them!

Laser/Talon/Eclipse(1st and 2nd gen) were pretty good. Galant was good.

I could keep going, but it really is pointless. All of my above examples used better materials than the new cars offered. I think that they will also prove over time to last better under user abuse than new cars too. I suppose time is the only telling factor...

[sherm1123]

^^Count the screws so you don't get screwed! LOL I like it!

To answer the question, I REALLY like my '90 Daytona's dash. I Like the layout. I like the style. It's taken a long time for interiors to catch up to that IMHO.

Next has to be the older G/J bodies. The 2nd Gen Dakota's are nice.

I know these two three are out of the price range, but 3000GT,300ZX(old and new), Supra(old and new) were all nice. Thisone is in the same catagory: RX7...all of them!

Laser/Talon/Eclipse(1st and 2nd gen) were pretty good. Galant was good.

I could keep going, but it really is pointless. All of my above examples used better materials than the new cars offered. I think that they will also prove over time to last better under user abuse than new cars too. I suppose time is the only telling factor...

That is amazing! It is interesting to see how different people are and what parts of the cars they bond with. I remember gauges, shifters, steering wheels, and seats on the interiors, but I don't think I can really remember any dashes of the cars I have owned over the years- 28 and counting... I guess that's what makes marketing cars so difficult- that differnet people like different things. I'm going to try and appriciate or at least notice dashes more. Maybe it will make me more sensitive...:clap:

Oh, I remember all of the back seats of my early cars! Do I get points for that?

[88_pacifica]

That is amazing! It is interesting to see how different people are and what parts of the cars they bond with. I remember gauges, shifters, steering wheels, and seats on the interiors, but I don't think I can really remember any dashes of the cars I have owned over the years- 28 and counting... I guess that's what makes marketing cars so difficult- that differnet people like different things. I'm going to try and appriciate or at least notice dashes more. Maybe it will make me more sensitive...:clap:

That's the beauty of cars. Everybody chooses to focus on the dumbest, but dearest, to themselves.... :eyebrows::p


Oh, I remember all of the back seats of my early cars! Do I get points for that?

Me too... But, I've never chosen to soil the seats of my "black beauty." I guess I'm just too scared I'd mess something up... ;) :nod:

[Reaper1]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I remember the gages, seats, ect. as well. Everybody has their little "thing" though....