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BadAssPerformance
11-13-2007, 02:54 AM
Ever take a little longer than planned to do something? I started in April, and REALLY wanted to get it done before SDAC-17, but I just couldn't let myself rush the job. Several months later, it now runs and drives but it still needs a couple parts and a tune before hitting the track. Unfortunately time is up for the 2007 season, but I should have plenty of time to get everything done before opening day next spring!

CLICK HERE for 2.4L engine pictures before and after the install (http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/24L_firstlook.html)

CLICK HERE for pics of the SRT Z's first trip out of the garage (http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/z_history.html)

http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/01.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/03.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/07.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/in01.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/in04.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/in06.jpg
http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/srt-z_07.jpg

Turbo3Iroc
11-13-2007, 03:11 AM
Looks good JT. I didnt know this was going in the Z. I thought you had it marked for the Shadow.

PS links aren't working for me.

Mike_Shepard
11-13-2007, 03:29 AM
holy moly I love it

Speedeuphoria
11-13-2007, 07:30 AM
Nice job! It looks right at home in there

contraption22
11-13-2007, 07:53 AM
Very nice JT! Congratulations!

88_pacifica
11-13-2007, 08:32 AM
That is extrememly show worthy. I like the way all the billet comes together. I think that the things is absolutely beautiful. It brings a tear to my eye... :love: :thumb: :amen: :hail:

Now, about that exhaust "moisture-trap/rust-conducive " thermal wrap.... :yuck: ;):nod:

R/T
11-13-2007, 09:00 AM
Now.... Just don't ventilate the crankcase.... :p

Nice!!!! :nod:

Pat
11-13-2007, 09:11 AM
Eh, it's OK I guess.;)

Subliminal
11-13-2007, 09:16 AM
Eh, it's OK I guess.;)

That's what I was thinking, too.

A little girly, don'tcha think, JT?:nod:

Turbodave
11-13-2007, 09:45 AM
Looks good, I can't wait to drive it...:)

87csx2.4
11-13-2007, 10:20 AM
I like it another 2.4 g-body,good job nice clean install.What turbo are you using?

8valves
11-13-2007, 10:23 AM
Looks like you did a great job! Now, I need that cran trigger setup for my car and have it still le tme keep the stock alternator belt setup!!

mcsvt
11-13-2007, 10:28 AM
Good job JT :thumb:

Subliminal
11-13-2007, 10:55 AM
Stupid question: Where's the alternator? ;)

I haven't been paying much attention to these crazy kids and their hybrid projects these last couple of years!

88_pacifica
11-13-2007, 11:13 AM
It runs on (4) D-cell batteries....

Clay
11-13-2007, 11:22 AM
its a race car, so he might now have an alternator. Otherwise, they are buried down low if I remember correctly.

Turbodave
11-13-2007, 11:27 AM
Stupid question: Where's the alternator? ;)


It's mounted on the backside of the block like a neon.

neonkitten63
11-13-2007, 11:40 AM
Wow I really like the SRT4 wheels on the Z. Great job!!

Turbo224
11-13-2007, 11:50 AM
That looks great! Good work!

Subliminal
11-13-2007, 11:54 AM
Huh...learn something new every day.

2.216VTurbo
11-13-2007, 12:01 PM
It's kinda fun to try and find/remember all those avatar pics in there:D The engine bay sure swallowed them up. Looks mighty tasty BTW JT:thumb: I bet that thing is really gonna scoot with 200 WHP:lol:

JK, I'm sure it'll hit 250:p

Mario
11-13-2007, 12:36 PM
Now I understand why you did the black ss lines. They almost go un noticed in the engine bay. Not sure if that's what you were after, but I like it!

SL#189
11-13-2007, 12:50 PM
Nice job! It looks right at home in there

Definitely looks like it was made for it (I guess it was eh?)!! That *is* "Badass" :hail:

Turbodave
11-13-2007, 12:59 PM
I like the "SRT-Z" name, but still don't think it's as good as the "Shelby Z-24"...lol..

t3rse
11-13-2007, 01:12 PM
looks sweet.

don't know if you know this but the stock srt acc pulley has a rubber dampener in it to eat vibrations and guys with aftermarket unit have been fragging oil pumps, literally.

GLHS592
11-13-2007, 01:16 PM
Good: I have to say, that's about the cleanest no-nonsense 2.4 swap I've seen.
Bad: Lose the SRT-4 wheels. I think they are the ugliest FWD Mopar wheels ever. :)

contraption22
11-13-2007, 01:25 PM
Bad: Lose the SRT-4 wheels. I think they are the ugliest FWD Mopar wheels ever. :)

I think the SRT-4 wheels actually look pretty good on the Daytona, which is strange, because I hated the way they looked on my SRT-4! What I would suggest for the Tona is to space out the rear a bit for asthetics. They look too far tucked in.

Turbodave
11-13-2007, 01:27 PM
I think the SRT-4 wheels actually look pretty good on the Daytona, which is strange, because I hated the way they looked on my SRT-4! What I would suggest for the Tona is to space out the rear a bit for asthetics. They look too far tucked in.

I agree with the spacing part, the SRT wheels have more offset that most TD wheels and are spaced in too far, push them out a little more and I think it would look perfect.

Directconnection
11-13-2007, 01:47 PM
I like it another 2.4 g-body,good job nice clean install.What turbo are you using?

I can't help notice in your sig picture at how even your car launches. Nice and even. Looks like it's sitting still, when it's actually launching pretty hard judging by the slicks.


Sorry for the hijacking JT! How's it run?

8valves
11-13-2007, 01:49 PM
looks sweet.

don't know if you know this but the stock srt acc pulley has a rubber dampener in it to eat vibrations and guys with aftermarket unit have been fragging oil pumps, literally.


True point. And DSM guys that ditch the stock pulley and don't put on an ATI unit or similar end up losing bearings.

BadAssPerformance
11-13-2007, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the compliments everyone! :)


Looks good JT. I didnt know this was going in the Z. I thought you had it marked for the Shadow.

PS links aren't working for me.

I was going to put it in a neon, but after pulling parts off neons in a j-yard, I said f-that!

Are they working now? work ok for me.


That is extrememly show worthy. I like the way all the billet comes together. I think that the things is absolutely beautiful. It brings a tear to my eye... :love: :thumb: :amen: :hail:

Now, about that exhaust "moisture-trap/rust-conducive " thermal wrap.... :yuck: ;):nod:

LOL, not too much billet after all ;)

I really didnt want to do that but until I figure out how much heat it makes I really don't want to cook anything!


Now.... Just don't ventilate the crankcase.... :p

Nice!!!! :nod:

LOL, that's th ereal trick isn't it? :)


I like it another 2.4 g-body,good job nice clean install.What turbo are you using?

Turbonetics T3 (Stage 3, .63 a/r) /T4 (60-1 HiFi with a 04B cover) hybrid... same one off the old 8v motor...


It's mounted on the backside of the block like a neon.

Exactly, nicely out of the way :thumb: and it is a street car still, so it does need one Clay!


It's kinda fun to try and find/remember all those avatar pics in there:D The engine bay sure swallowed them up. Looks mighty tasty BTW JT:thumb: I bet that thing is really gonna scoot with 200 WHP:lol:

JK, I'm sure it'll hit 250:p

LOL, you can see a couple of them for sure :thumb: I'm REALLY hoping for 250! ;)


Now I understand why you did the black ss lines. They almost go un noticed in the engine bay. Not sure if that's what you were after, but I like it!

I spent some big bucks on the lines, they are Aeroquip Kevlar lines, way lighter than SS and way easier to use :thumb:


looks sweet.

don't know if you know this but the stock srt acc pulley has a rubber dampener in it to eat vibrations and guys with aftermarket unit have been fragging oil pumps, literally.

I didn't get a crank pulley with it... tell me more, what is the vibration from? I only have 1 accessory, the alternator.


I agree with the spacing part, the SRT wheels have more offset that most TD wheels and are spaced in too far, push them out a little more and I think it would look perfect.

Yeah, they do need to stick out more, maybe an 0.5 - 1 inch?


Sorry for the hijacking JT! How's it run?

It runs... I have not put a tune on it yet (using the 8v cal) so it has not even made boost yet.

87csx2.4
11-13-2007, 04:02 PM
looks sweet.

don't know if you know this but the stock srt acc pulley has a rubber dampener in it to eat vibrations and guys with aftermarket unit have been fragging oil pumps, literally.Thats because they try and run the stock ecu with big turbo's and big boost.Detonation from to much advance is whats breaking the oil pumps,these engines need very little timing to run good.Ive been running mine hard for 3 years and not a problem at all.Keep the timing conservative JT and you wont have a problem.:thumb:

turbovanmanČ
11-13-2007, 05:23 PM
Meh, its so so, ;)

Give it tons of timing, the more, the better, :lol:

Looks good man, its so clean under the hood, :partywoot:

karlak
11-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Now if you would only start selling kits for this swap.

BadAssPerformance
11-13-2007, 05:57 PM
Thats because they try and run the stock ecu with big turbo's and big boost.Detonation from to much advance is whats breaking the oil pumps,these engines need very little timing to run good.Ive been running mine hard for 3 years and not a problem at all.Keep the timing conservative JT and you wont have a problem.:thumb:

Sweet, I never run much timing, my 8v cal only runs 12°


Meh, its so so, ;)

Give it tons of timing, the more, the better, :lol:

Looks good man, its so clean under the hood, :partywoot:

Thanks... hours cleaning it, but I still am finding yellow fire extinguisher crud in places :(


Now if you would only start selling kits for this swap.

mounts kits? or full conversion kits?

blk86trbo
11-13-2007, 07:21 PM
Awesome JT, I think we have a new club car! I can't wait to flog it!

Vigo
11-13-2007, 07:38 PM
looks fantastic, the 2.4 itch is spreading like plague around here... lovin it :)

tps25pentium
11-13-2007, 08:10 PM
I'm speechless! :eek:

Great work man! How many parts did you fabricate?

GLHS592
11-13-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm kicking myself for building an 8 valve.

ohiorob
11-13-2007, 08:48 PM
a work of art :thumb: can't wait to see her run down the track or back roads.

crazy1eye
11-13-2007, 09:09 PM
Very nice, great job, nice fab work :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
11-13-2007, 09:28 PM
Awesome JT, I think we have a new club car! I can't wait to flog it!

LOL, we do need a new club car! ;)


I'm speechless! :eek:

Great work man! How many parts did you fabricate?

Too many... most are in the Avatar Thread (http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15899)


I'm kicking myself for building an 8 valve.

This was almost too much work, shoulda kept mine an 8 valve, LOL


a work of art :thumb: can't wait to see her run down the track or back roads.

Rob, your Charger was Alex's inspiration for starting this 2.4L and also my inspiration for finishing it and making it run! :thumb:

BLUEBALL
11-13-2007, 09:49 PM
Great lookin transplant :thumb:
Can you have the SRT rims widened?

Ubmbass
11-13-2007, 09:53 PM
What crank trigger is that, and also, how did you mount it? what stand alone are you using? please, more info on your DIS setup

BadAssPerformance
11-13-2007, 10:12 PM
Great lookin transplant :thumb:
Can you have the SRT rims widened?

That is a great idea, add 1" dish to the outside! Who does that?


What crank trigger is that, and also, how did you mount it? what stand alone are you using? please, more info on your DIS setup

ECU - FAST SFI8LO
eDist - FAST
Crank trigger - MSD SBC 7"
Cam trigger - MSD
Box - MSD DIS2 Plus

Crank trigger is bolted to the underdrive crank pulley with an adapter... I forgot to upload 2 pics, here is one of them:

http://badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/firstlook/11.jpg

butchsuppe
11-13-2007, 10:24 PM
Awsome dude !!!!!!!:thumb:

cordes
11-13-2007, 10:34 PM
That is really nice JT. I bet that thing will scream beyond all belief.

TurboRon25
11-14-2007, 12:20 AM
It sure whistles beyond all belief. wild!

Ron

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 12:25 AM
LOL, whistling? yes... screaming? not yet ;)

whywoody
11-14-2007, 01:25 AM
Wow,thats really nice!
With so many 2.4 swaps happening now,I don't see too many head conversions being planned...The 2.4 swap is alot neater I think,especially when compared to my hybrid build lol!
Well done again!

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 01:39 AM
Thanks... I had the motor before I decided to put it in this car. It was bound for a neon. I am not sure if I would try the swap if I did not have access to a machine shop and welder. Either way, making motor mounts did seem easier to me than swapping hybrid heads.

supercrackerbox
11-14-2007, 04:57 AM
mounts kits? or full conversion kits?

Yes. ;)

contraption22
11-14-2007, 07:48 AM
LOL, whistling? yes... screaming? not yet ;)
The whistles go wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 09:26 AM
Yes. ;)

To do it right, that would be an expensive kit... ;)


The whistles go wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

LOL easy there Bub-rub :D "its like 8 in tha mornin, folks supposed to be up making breakfast, then it goes Woooo woooooooooooooooooooo"

http://www.captainporkchop.com/elements/movie%20thumbs/bubrub.jpg

SebringLX
11-14-2007, 11:17 AM
Interesting. I am going to have to stop by and see it next time I'm out your way visiting relatives. I think I need to actually look all over the engine bay to understand why you did things the way you did them.

Looks like you have plenty of room to upgrade to a bigger turbo in the future. :evil:

Vigo
11-14-2007, 11:36 AM
The 2.4 swap is alot neater I think,especially when compared to my hybrid build lol!
Well done again!

i agree its neater, but i think its funny you're complaining about your build when a lot of people here just want to know more about it.

ive got a 2.0 420a with the reverse head i wanna put in my aries and rev the mofo. i love the revs.


also WOOO WOOO!!!

http://www.millerarts.com/eyes/images/ads/bubbrubb.gif

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 02:52 PM
Interesting. I am going to have to stop by and see it next time I'm out your way visiting relatives. I think I need to actually look all over the engine bay to understand why you did things the way you did them.

Looks like you have plenty of room to upgrade to a bigger turbo in the future. :evil:

feel free to ask questions, I have noting to hide!

Yeah, that hybrid looks a little undersized now ;)

cj011
11-14-2007, 03:14 PM
what do you mean by eDist? How were able to lign up all the trigger point, TDC etc with the SBC trigger wheel?

contraption22
11-14-2007, 03:15 PM
I wonder if that header/turbo combination would fit in an Lbody....

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 03:21 PM
what do you mean by eDist? How were able to lign up all the trigger point, TDC etc with the SBC trigger wheel?

eDist = electronic distributor... it allows the coil to be used with the FAST ECU

I used a crank wheel (angle gauge) and some guessing to line up the crank trigger. The FAST software alows you to adjust the crank sensor offset so it doesn't have to be an exact angle or adjustable by itself. Just need to be =10° from where you will have your bax BTDC timing :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 03:33 PM
I wonder if that header/turbo combination would fit in an Lbody....

Turbo has a 04B comp housing and before I rotated the motor forward 2" the comp housing touched the firewall...

CSX321
11-14-2007, 03:42 PM
I agree with the spacing part, the SRT wheels have more offset that most TD wheels and are spaced in too far, push them out a little more and I think it would look perfect.

FWIW, Erich Heuschele (SRT suspension engineer) once said that the spacing was chosen to help reduce torque steer on the SRT4. He also kept saying things like "kingpin angle" and other stuff I didn't really understand. :D

Turbodave
11-14-2007, 03:50 PM
FWIW, Erich Heuschele (SRT suspension engineer) once said that the spacing was chosen to help reduce torque steer on the SRT4. He also kept saying things like "kingpin angle" and other stuff I didn't really understand. :D

Kingpin was a funny movie..:D

Vigo
11-14-2007, 04:22 PM
kingpin angle is probly just referring to the point that an imaginary line drawn through the steering axis would touch the ground relative to the contact patch of the tire. A more applicable term for how wheel offset would affect torque steer is scrub radius. scrub radius is the reason you cant just stick a RWD offset 10 inch wide wheel with a huge tire on it on your car and expect it to drive worth a ----, as some people in this forum have said they wanted to try :p the same effect would also work against you from road to tire too.. from bumps, uneven pavement, locking up only one front tire, would all try to pull the wheel out of your hands too.

i think this is a major reason why most powerful cars with power through the front wheels now have way more positive offset then we do.. i.e. 3.5 nissans, subarus, etc. even AWD magnums,300s etc have way different offset than the rwd ones. who wants to deal with hemi torque steer? lol.

i bet youd find the gm supercharged 3.8 and ls3 fwds have the same deal but i dont know those for a fact like i do the others.

WVRampage
11-14-2007, 07:31 PM
Looks great,I hope to see it run some time soon.

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 07:39 PM
FWIW, Erich Heuschele (SRT suspension engineer) once said that the spacing was chosen to help reduce torque steer on the SRT4. He also kept saying things like "kingpin angle" and other stuff I didn't really understand. :D

Erich's a good guy :thumb:

I think the real goal is to try to get the lower ball joint as close to wheel center as possible.


Kingpin was a funny movie..:D

LOL, awesome movie! :thumb:

Speedeuphoria
11-14-2007, 08:17 PM
You did put an oil restrictor in there right?

Is that the stock dipstick? Did you not want it inbetween the runners?

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 08:22 PM
I did not assemble the long block, but I think there is one in there. Where does it go?

The dipstick doesn't sit between the runners too well :(

Speedeuphoria
11-14-2007, 08:32 PM
It goes in the block, think its back right

Thats what I was thinking on the dipstick

8valves
11-14-2007, 08:33 PM
I did not assemble the long block, but I think there is one in there. Where does it go?

The dipstick doesn't sit between the runners too well :(

Is that Alex M's old setup????

I went skiing with him out here in Michigan one random day. He was a cool guy. I drove my old '86 on some snow tires to there with an open downpipe! :p

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 08:38 PM
It goes in the block, think its back right

Thats what I was thinking on the dipstick

Cool, I'll have to check whenever I take the head off...


Is that Alex M's old setup????

I went skiing with him out here in Michigan one random day. He was a cool guy. I drove my old '86 on some snow tires to there with an open downpipe! :p

You betcha, MoparBoyy's old project :thumb:

8valves
11-14-2007, 08:41 PM
I was wondering what ever happened to that. I thought everyone else had forgotten about it.

cj011
11-14-2007, 10:31 PM
Is the electronic distributor a Dodge piece or is this aftermarket?

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 10:35 PM
I was wondering what ever happened to that. I thought everyone else had forgotten about it.

It looks a tad different from when I got it HEMI orange ;)

http://badassperformance.com/misc-pics/hemi.jpg

BadAssPerformance
11-14-2007, 10:36 PM
Is the electronic distributor a Dodge piece or is this aftermarket?

It is a FAST eDist box

cj011
11-15-2007, 04:53 AM
Thanks for the answers. I know alot of stupid questions, but I am new to this type of electronics and you have a great setup. Have you considered making a few of the adapters you made for the crank pulley?

8valves
11-15-2007, 08:37 AM
Thanks for the answers. I know alot of stupid questions, but I am new to this type of electronics and you have a great setup. Have you considered making a few of the adapters you made for the crank pulley?

Hahaha :p

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 09:53 AM
There are no stupid questions :)

LOL, Aaron already asked. This adapter is ver specific to the 2.4L pulley. If there was a big demand I'm sure I could make another adapter for the OE or FM underdrive pulley.

8valves
11-15-2007, 01:42 PM
There are no stupid questions :)

LOL, Aaron already asked. This adapter is ver specific to the 2.4L pulley. If there was a big demand I'm sure I could make another adapter for the OE or FM underdrive pulley.


Me = big demand :nod: :p

cj011
11-15-2007, 03:11 PM
ECU - FAST SFI8LO
eDist - FAST
Crank trigger - MSD SBC 7"
Cam trigger - MSD
Box - MSD DIS2 Plus

Do you have any pictures of how you mounted the cam trigger? Or is there already a spot on the neon head for that?

Why did you use the eDist when you already have cam and crank trigger combined with the MSD box

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 03:48 PM
Me = big demand :nod: :p

How many? ;)

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 03:49 PM
ECU - FAST SFI8LO
eDist - FAST
Crank trigger - MSD SBC 7"
Cam trigger - MSD
Box - MSD DIS2 Plus

Do you have any pictures of how you mounted the cam trigger? Or is there already a spot on the neon head for that?

Why did you use the eDist when you already have cam and crank trigger combined with the MSD box

The eDist is needed to read the cam sensor and send the coil signals out. It can be used w/o the DIS2, not the other way around.

rbryant
11-15-2007, 03:49 PM
Do you have any pictures of the back of the engine with the tranny and starter connected?

I am interested to see how you ran your oil/coolant lines to the turbo.

On my SRT4 block it looks like I will have to plug the stock oil pressure sender hole and the turbo feed hole. It is on the back left side of the block under where the starter would have to be on the SRT4 block. This means that I will have to tee the water feed line to the turbo or remove the oil preheater/cooler. I think I can just use a TD oil distribution block for the turbo oil feed and senders.

cj011
11-15-2007, 05:17 PM
Why would one go through all the bother of the eDist and cam trigger when he already has the crank trigger?

If I did not have the fast setup, I could use the DIS box, eDist, and both triggers for a stand alone ignition setup?

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Do you have any pictures of the back of the engine with the tranny and starter connected?

I am interested to see how you ran your oil/coolant lines to the turbo.

On my SRT4 block it looks like I will have to plug the stock oil pressure sender hole and the turbo feed hole. It is on the back left side of the block under where the starter would have to be on the SRT4 block. This means that I will have to tee the water feed line to the turbo or remove the oil preheater/cooler. I think I can just use a TD oil distribution block for the turbo oil feed and senders.

Starter fits in just like a 2.2L/2.5L block.

Oil supply to the turbo is "R" and that goes to a remote oil filter where there are oil pressure and oil temp taps and also oil line to the turbo. Oil return goes to a fitting on the pan.

Coolant supply to the turbo is "S" coolant return is to the fitting on the bottom of the t-stat housing

http://www.badassperformance.com/misc-pics/parts/24L/block_back.jpg

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 06:36 PM
Why would one go through all the bother of the eDist and cam trigger when he already has the crank trigger?

If I did not have the fast setup, I could use the DIS box, eDist, and both triggers for a stand alone ignition setup?

The eDist and cam trigger are needed to run the WS coil pack. The FAST ECU (SFI-8LO) only has a single coil output so without the eDist/coil setup, a conventional distributor would need to be used.

The eDist box gets the cam signal directly to it, but gets the "points" signal from the FAST ECU. The DIS2 box is spliced in between the eDist and the coil.

cj011
11-15-2007, 07:16 PM
Okay I had you until the WS coil pack. What on gods earth is that one? What brand do you have so I can do some digging around for info.

If I understand you correctly, you needed the addtional stuff because the FAST you are using only has one output. When you say output are you referring to spark plug wires? What is it outputting to or trying to control?

BadAssPerformance
11-15-2007, 07:27 PM
WS = Waste Spark ... that is stock 2.4L coil pack which has 2 coils that support 4 cylinders. Coil one is for cylinders 1 & 4 and coil two is for 2 & 3. When coil one fires for clinder 1, the spark for coil 4 is wasted, thus the name "Waste Spark"

I am using the OEM Mopar one, buy may uprade to a MSD one later.

When I say "output" I am saying the signal to initiate spark. The FAST box by itself can send this "output" signal to an ignition box (like a MSD 7-AL2) and then the box can send it to a regular coil which goes to a conventional distributor. The eDist is needed when no distributor is available so that the "output" signal can be sent to the WS coil instead of the conventional coil/distributor setup.

BF/STOCKER SPIRIT
11-15-2007, 07:41 PM
Awsome! Took Your Time ,and Its A Hopefully Reliable,terror,

SebringLX
11-16-2007, 10:53 AM
Ok so since I never really saw your project until it was done... here's my questions.

Why the NA valve cover over the turbo valve cover?

Why the square intake manifold with the TB on the opposite side (which caused you to create a custom waterneck as well?)

It looks like there would have been plenty of room for a stock, or only slightly modified (like mine is to fit with my automatic transmission) SRT-4 intake manifold.

Turbo manifold looks custom made... looks like you had plenty of room for any number of aftermarket SRT-4 turbo manifolds, why not just use one of those? Also why mount the turbo with the outlet facing up? Was there something in the way of mounting it facing down?

Clay
11-16-2007, 10:57 AM
hehehe I think alot of those can be answered with either

a) because this is what I had

or

b) because this way was cheaper

88_pacifica
11-16-2007, 11:24 AM
Ok so since I never really saw your project until it was done... here's my questions.

Why the NA valve cover over the turbo valve cover?

Why the square intake manifold with the TB on the opposite side (which caused you to create a custom waterneck as well?)

It looks like there would have been plenty of room for a stock, or only slightly modified (like mine is to fit with my automatic transmission) SRT-4 intake manifold.

Turbo manifold looks custom made... looks like you had plenty of room for any number of aftermarket SRT-4 turbo manifolds, why not just use one of those? Also why mount the turbo with the outlet facing up? Was there something in the way of mounting it facing down?

If I had to speculate..

a) because it has 2 existing pcv ports in the valve cover he could use

b) He wanted to custom fab it because he wanted to "try something new," move a hell of a lot more air, and he wanted to control the "mods" and know the exact specs he controlled...

if I had to guess...

Turbodave
11-16-2007, 11:37 AM
Since we're guessing here, I would have to say that the Valve cover was the one that came on the engine and JT didn't go after a turbo one because

A) it costs money
b) it doesn't make the car any faster

I think that logic was applied to the entire build. Build it to go fast, make it look clean, but don't waste money on bling-bling for a car that is meant to be raced.

turboshad
11-16-2007, 12:13 PM
Haven't commented on this thread yet but the car and engine look killer. I love that the hybrids and swaps are bringing out some of the true craftsmen in the TD world. I cringe at some of the hacking that goes on sometimes.


Since everyone else is playing...


Why the NA valve cover over the turbo valve cover?

It is an NA head. An SRT4 valve cover has 2 extra holes which would need to be filled which is more work for no gain. I kept mine b/c I would prefer people know I didn't just throw in an SRT4 engine but that I built up an NA engine. Makes me feel like I did more.


Why the square intake manifold with the TB on the opposite side (which caused you to create a custom waterneck as well?)

I think square was just the shape of choice and is for sure the cheapest material wise. Putting the TB on the passenger side siplifies the intercooler piping by not having to bring it all the way back over to the drivers side. It also keeps the piping as short as possible decreasing the chance for any heat soak after the intercooler and helping keep lag down.


Turbo manifold looks custom made... looks like you had plenty of room for any number of aftermarket SRT-4 turbo manifolds, why not just use one of those? Also why mount the turbo with the outlet facing up? Was there something in the way of mounting it facing down?


Being an NA head it has oval ports compared to the square ports in an SRT4. To use an SRT4 header you would have to reshape the NA ports which is alot of time for probably not alot of gain. Not to metion to get a decent header you pay a mint and for the price difference it is worth it to make one over spending 6-700 bucks on a piece of crap. I think he is also alot like me in taking pride saying he built everything.

DJ

SebringLX
11-16-2007, 12:23 PM
I don't see how all that custom fabrication saved time or money though. The only reason I could see for doing that is if it's the only way to make things work, but that just doesn't look like the case to me.

I forget that most of you guys have a ton of spare parts laying around to be used. I'm thinking in terms of having to buy everything.

I'm not knocking it, I'm just trying to understand why it was done that way.

t3rse
11-16-2007, 12:29 PM
Thats because they try and run the stock ecu with big turbo's and big boost.Detonation from to much advance is whats breaking the oil pumps,these engines need very little timing to run good.Ive been running mine hard for 3 years and not a problem at all.Keep the timing conservative JT and you wont have a problem.:thumb:

this is true. people have pump gear failures to do resonance through the crank from spark knock. The stock dampener in the pulley helps to counter this in case the tune isn't quite as it should be...

the problem with the srt motor is the reputation it's earned for failing at 400-500 whp. there are plenty of people who have proven that they can be reliable at 450-550 range with a proper tune.

SebringLX
11-16-2007, 12:31 PM
Haven't commented on this thread yet but the car and engine look killer. I love that the hybrids and swaps are bringing out some of the true craftsmen in the TD world. I cringe at some of the hacking that goes on sometimes.


Since everyone else is playing...



It is an NA head. An SRT4 valve cover has 2 extra holes which would need to be filled which is more work for no gain. I kept mine b/c I would prefer people know I didn't just throw in an SRT4 engine but that I built up an NA engine. Makes me feel like I did more.



I think square was just the shape of choice and is for sure the cheapest material wise. Putting the TB on the passenger side siplifies the intercooler piping by not having to bring it all the way back over to the drivers side. It also keeps the piping as short as possible decreasing the chance for any heat soak after the intercooler and helping keep lag down.




Being an NA head it has oval ports compared to the square ports in an SRT4. To use an SRT4 header you would have to reshape the NA ports which is alot of time for probably not alot of gain. Not to metion to get a decent header you pay a mint and for the price difference it is worth it to make one over spending 6-700 bucks on a piece of crap. I think he is also alot like me in taking pride saying he built everything.

DJ

Must only be that way on the 1G 2.4L head. 2G head is nearly identical. I didn't have to reshape anything or fill any holes. Only reason I went to the turbo valve cover is 'cause I wanted it powder coated, and couldn't find anyone that would powder coat my used NA valve cover.

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2007, 02:25 PM
Ok so since I never really saw your project until it was done... here's my questions.

Why the NA valve cover over the turbo valve cover?

It's what I had ('97 N/A motor) why would I want a turbo one? I have a spare that will have the words milled off eventually ;)


Why the square intake manifold with the TB on the opposite side (which caused you to create a custom waterneck as well?)

Square is easier, cheaper than round and also allowed room for the stacks inside. The TB is on that side for a direct path from the front mount IC.


It looks like there would have been plenty of room for a stock, or only slightly modified (like mine is to fit with my automatic transmission) SRT-4 intake manifold.

I would have to modify any OEM intake to put the TB where I wanted to put it.


Turbo manifold looks custom made... looks like you had plenty of room for any number of aftermarket SRT-4 turbo manifolds, why not just use one of those? Also why mount the turbo with the outlet facing up? Was there something in the way of mounting it facing down?

The header is a OBX unit, cheapest POS I could get to put the car together. None of the fancy SRT headers out there will fit the next turbo the car will get that way I want it to fit, so I deceided to go simple with this turbo just to get it running.

rbryant
11-16-2007, 02:42 PM
BTW there are DOHC 2.0 valve covers that don't have any lettering on them...

That means there is no need to mill lettering off if you use one of those.

-Rich

Turbodave
11-16-2007, 02:46 PM
BTW there are DOHC 2.0 valve covers that don't have any lettering on them...

That means there is no need to mill lettering off if you use one of those.

-Rich

BTW: I've got one of those sitting on the shelf in the barn, just come and get it JT.

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2007, 03:28 PM
Cool, are they the same shape, just no letters? I would prefer the same shape...

Turbodave
11-16-2007, 03:46 PM
Cool, are they the same shape, just no letters? I would prefer the same shape...


I think it's the same shape, black and lumpy, just how you like it.

BadAssPerformance
11-16-2007, 06:28 PM
MMmmmm lumpy ;)

Aries_Turbo
11-17-2007, 02:05 PM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/522/aemignmapSRT4.jpg

if you havent seen this... SRT-4 base timing map that is supplied with AEM systems.

btw, that is total timing, no base advance

Brian

Speedeuphoria
11-17-2007, 02:48 PM
What CR do you have JT?

Dave
11-17-2007, 06:05 PM
Wow JT. That looks amazing! I'm always blown away by your work.

I don't know if it's been asked yet, but what are you using for electronics??

BadAssPerformance
11-17-2007, 09:27 PM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/522/aemignmapSRT4.jpg

if you havent seen this... SRT-4 base timing map that is supplied with AEM systems.

btw, that is total timing, no base advance

Brian

Holy timing Batman!

Thanks Brian :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
11-17-2007, 09:29 PM
What CR do you have JT?

IIR it is 8.5:1


Wow JT. That looks amazing! I'm always blown away by your work.

I don't know if it's been asked yet, but what are you using for electronics??

Thanks :thumb: see below...



ECU - FAST SFI8LO
eDist - FAST
Crank trigger - MSD SBC 7"
Cam trigger - MSD
Box - MSD DIS2 Plus

Turbo3Iroc
11-17-2007, 10:12 PM
Is that pump gas timing?

Speedeuphoria
11-17-2007, 11:44 PM
yes thats the factory pump gas timing for the SRT4, as stated earlier in this thread thats why people have probs when switching to a larger turbo, lots of timing, breaks the oil pump gears from detonation and cracks the ringlands.

I think the stock ramp style pistons like more timing then dished pistons from what I understand, so when they switch to a higher CR piston and dished quench design they have major probs if not done properly. Thats why on SRTforums I allways suggest running the lowest CR possible. IMO there is not a good off the shelf piston for the SRT4 motor(using a stockish computer) because they are either stock ramp style( which I dont care for) or dished raising the CR, the 8.5CR JE's are the lowest common dished piston and dont have large enough valve reliefs for larger than Crane 14 cams.

Someone needs to get there act together and make a damn piston w/ like 8.3CR/dished and large enough valve pockets.

Then again I'm running ~9:1CR, but have the timing very low in comparrison(almost 1/2 the stock SRT4, hint JT:thumb: )

BadAssPerformance
11-18-2007, 01:11 AM
Yeah, there's no way I'm going close to those stock numbers ;)

contraption22
11-18-2007, 01:18 PM
What are the numbers on the left side of the scale?

t3rse
11-18-2007, 02:13 PM
Then again I'm running ~9:1CR, but have the timing very low in comparrison(almost 1/2 the stock SRT4, hint JT:thumb: )

you run 10* at max on redline?

BadAssPerformance
11-18-2007, 03:26 PM
What are the numbers on the left side of the scale?

MPa I would guess.

Aries_Turbo
11-18-2007, 03:57 PM
MPa I would guess.

Kpa... i have another image that i converted to psi, lemme see if i can find it.

here it is. i think those are the correct values.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/522/aemignmapSRT4-psi.jpg

Brian

Speedeuphoria
11-18-2007, 04:45 PM
you run 10* at max on redline?

at that psi yep, but I dont go that high of boost on 93octane pump gas because EGT's get to 1700. Thats why I have 10gph of 100%meth which brings the EGT's down at least 100deg so I can run a little over 20psi w/ more timing

BadAssPerformance
11-18-2007, 04:52 PM
Kpa...

Doh! ;)

8valves
11-18-2007, 07:27 PM
I am still confused by you guys that are at 10-15* timing at WOT. Weak stuff man.

On the SRT4 stuff, a bunch of them run AFC's or other hack devices that make the pcm think they're at lower boost levels so it doesn't dump so much Effing fuel, because they run them very, very rich. Except then they run rediculous timing.... way rediculous.

Aries_Turbo
11-18-2007, 08:36 PM
aaron, so are you saying that the map posted is way too aggressive?

do you have the resources/experience to suggest some better timing values and edit them into the pic?

I am helping a friend tune a 2.4L swap in a 97 eclipse sometime within the next year and id like to start with a somewhat safe base map as he and i still need to work on a good knock detection setup. he is running megasquirt II. plus I think that we all could benefit from this.

thanks

Brian

Speedeuphoria
11-18-2007, 09:26 PM
I am still confused by you guys that are at 10-15* timing at WOT. Weak stuff man.


Its no 8valve

My vac and 100Kpa values are basically the same as that map(basically 2 deg less except for idle)

This was posted by Kevin Davis on TD awhile ago

"Yes he is talking total timing,I talked with bill hahn and some other people darrel cox etc. about total timing with the pent roof stlye head when I was building my 2.4 dohc.This is what bill hahn told me,@ 8.6:1 comp. with the sc6152 turbo 15 psi is max with pump gas @ 15 to 17 total if you go to 21 psi 110 octane, 26 psi 114 anything else c16. I found that with the automatic its more like 13 or 14 I was getting slight knock at 15 degrees.Like brian said the pent roof style head is so efficient and such a fast burn head with its central plug location it just doesnt need the advance.Darrel cox said @30 psi with c16 keep it between 9-12 total if you need more power raise boost dont increase timing he was bending aluminum rods.Usually the first thing to break on the 2.4 with serious detonation is the oil pump then it just escalates from there.Sorry not trying to hijack thread but thought this would be some good info for the dohc guys"

Also heres a good formula for dynamic compression ratio
the formula is: (actual boost/14.7)+1 xCR).
so right now I'm running(15/14.7)+1x9.0), which =~18.2:1cr

Speedeuphoria
11-18-2007, 11:05 PM
aaron, so are you saying that the map posted is way too aggressive?


No he is saying that people use map clamps and dtec's or what have you to pull fuel by telling the map its at a lower psi than it really is. So the timing goes up because it thinks its at a lower psi. Which again is why they have the oil pump and ringland probs if they dont know what they are doing, which many dont.

8valves
11-19-2007, 12:04 AM
No he is saying that people use map clamps and dtec's or what have you to pull fuel by telling the map its at a lower psi than it really is. So the timing goes up because it thinks its at a lower psi. Which again is why they have the oil pump and ringland probs if they dont know what they are doing, which many dont.

Yup, that's what I was referring to.

8valves
11-19-2007, 12:17 AM
Its no 8valve

My vac and 100Kpa values are basically the same as that map(basically 2 deg less except for idle)

This was posted by Kevin Davis on TD awhile ago

"Yes he is talking total timing,I talked with bill hahn and some other people darrel cox etc. about total timing with the pent roof stlye head when I was building my 2.4 dohc.This is what bill hahn told me,@ 8.6:1 comp. with the sc6152 turbo 15 psi is max with pump gas @ 15 to 17 total if you go to 21 psi 110 octane, 26 psi 114 anything else c16. I found that with the automatic its more like 13 or 14 I was getting slight knock at 15 degrees.Like brian said the pent roof style head is so efficient and such a fast burn head with its central plug location it just doesnt need the advance.Darrel cox said @30 psi with c16 keep it between 9-12 total if you need more power raise boost dont increase timing he was bending aluminum rods.Usually the first thing to break on the 2.4 with serious detonation is the oil pump then it just escalates from there.Sorry not trying to hijack thread but thought this would be some good info for the dohc guys"

Also heres a good formula for dynamic compression ratio
the formula is: (actual boost/14.7)+1 xCR).
so right now I'm running(15/14.7)+1x9.0), which =~18.2:1cr

It's not an 8V, you're right. Without the background story you wouldn't quite understand where I was coming from with that. JT is fairly sure that when using FAST on his 8V setup that he was only running I believe it was 10, or 12, or something like that advance when it was running so strong. I see that as far lower than what even a very good 8V head would require to make the power he did. A pent roof head is surely different, but too little is just as shitty as too much in my opinion.

On Kevin's information, everyone has their own theory when tuning a car. You can do whatever you want, nobody can rightfully say that their way is the only way.

Having said that, we've ran 26 psi on one of Bill's 20G kits on straight pump gas on a stock motor SRT4. Where was that 15 psi max again? The car was making decent power for a bolt on setup, but 15 psi is nothing.

A Honda I tuned is on a 9.0:1 CP piston bottom end, stock GSR head (similar to an SRT4 if it helps) with a very nice array of supporting modifications, EQ tubular header, big plenum intake, GT3076R, AEM, 1000cc injectors, etc. That car made 426 whp and 289 wtq at 18 psi, with 18* timing. Pump 93 octane, zero issues. A boosted H22 I tuned made 406 whp 305 wtq at only 15 psi on a 72mm ITS, with around 17* advance.

DCR has a good point too. With big turbo cars, rasing the boost is much easier to make power than timing, and generally safer. How many times has he made successful passes with that car though? I hate to put it that way, but really, for someone that preaches a safe tune what kept happening that wouldn't allow him to make a pass consistantly? But damn did it rip when it held together!! :nod:

The most knowledgable and best tuner I've seen work does a friends Eclipse, on straight pump gas the car can run 20-21 psi using a 35R on a 2.3 bottom end, 8.5:1 compression. It goes 11.38 @ 124 mph in a 3300 lb, leather lined luxury machine.

Speedeuphoria
11-19-2007, 12:56 AM
JT is fairly sure that when using FAST on his 8V setup that he was only running I believe it was 10, or 12, or something like that advance when it was running so strong. I see that as far lower than what even a very good 8V head would require to make the power he did.

Yes and I as well as most would agree with that being very low timing for an 8valve

A pent roof head is surely different, but too little is just as shitty as too much in my opinion.

Yes, you have to work w/ what fuel you have meaning add timing or boost till you get knock, then watch the EGT's till they get too high for your liking and find a happy medium


Having said that, we've ran 26 psi on one of Bill's 20G kits on straight pump gas on a stock motor SRT4. Where was that 15 psi max again?
Did you read exactly what was written, w/ higher compression than the stock SRT4 this was the suggestion. I also would believe that this is a conservative estimate.

A Honda I tuned is on a 9.0:1 CP piston bottom end, stock GSR head (similar to an SRT4 if it helps) with a very nice array of supporting modifications, EQ tubular header, big plenum intake, GT3076R, AEM, 1000cc injectors, etc. That car made 426 whp and 289 wtq at 18 psi, with 18* timing. Pump 93 octane, zero issues. A boosted H22 I tuned made 406 whp 305 wtq at only 15 psi on a 72mm ITS, with around 17* advance.

DCR has a good point too. With big turbo cars, rasing the boost is much easier to make power than timing, and generally safer. How many times has he made successful passes with that car though? I hate to put it that way, but really, for someone that preaches a safe tune what kept happening that wouldn't allow him to make a pass consistantly? But damn did it rip when it held together!! :nod:

The most knowledgable and best tuner I've seen work does a friends Eclipse, on straight pump gas the car can run 20-21 psi using a 35R on a 2.3 bottom end, 8.5:1 compression. It goes 11.38 @ 124 mph in a 3300 lb, leather lined luxury machine.

You also have to know that Kevins car is ~9.0:1 CR like mine, not 8.6:1CR as he thought when posting that info as Bob Stockum's web page has incorrect info on the pistons(where kevin got them from). Also the calculations that I have show there more like 8.9:1 rather than 8.8:1 as advertised.

You should also know he had a log header at that point which has an effect on reversion and knock. Also has a medium IC that is hard pressed for fresh air due to the Shelby Daytona front bumper. There are also other varibles that none can account for like sharpe edges in the combustion area(like the valve pockets in the piston) and air temps that can lead to knock sooner then others.

I'm not butting heads w/ you Aaron as I know you have experience, just sharing some info w/ ya'll on this application.

That being said I used Kevins input for a base for my timing map. Now that he has a tubular mani and more air moving over the IC he may very well have a better knock threshold? Also I have yet to thouroghly test my setups knock threshold. I have a free flowing mani(may not be the best) and sanded the sharpe edges on my pistons before install so I hope that I can run more timing before knock becomes present. I also understood this when setting it up, Even w/ the 245 DR's 15psi is plenty to get around on. I also planed to have W/I and use better gas when uping the boost. This was to make more power possible as ~30psi is getting close to the max of the turbo(and fueling for that matter on my setup) and I can provide enough octane when needed to acomplish this, also I dont really care to push it higher. I could have went w/ a 7.5CR like Ondonti and ran on pump all day and added W/I when I wanted to hit 30psi, but I chose to hopefully make a little more HP when the turbo is close to maxed out. Kinda like a bb turbo, I dont see the point in my setup, its FWD, I have plenty of spool w/ the CR and auto and it doesnt drop when shifting so whats the point?We shall see.

Another note that Kevin shared w/ me was that on his 8valve when switching to auto from 5spd he had to reduce timing that was fine on the 5spd because it would detonate w/ the auto. Have you had any experience w/ this as it was new to me??

8valves
11-19-2007, 09:07 AM
Another note that Kevin shared w/ me was that on his 8valve when switching to auto from 5spd he had to reduce timing that was fine on the 5spd because it would detonate w/ the auto. Have you had any experience w/ this as it was new to me??

No, zero experience on this. I've only tuned one auto car, a 596 cid brodix head'd 10-71 BDS running on FAST XFI in a backhalfed Nova using a brake'd 'glide and some gargantuan meats! It's always been an auto though, never switched back and forth. It's a good street car :) It's up out of Port Huron... don't mess around with him!

Everyone's setup is going to be different. Cams are something nobody has mentioned that have a huge impact on all of this.

I'm not usually a big fan of the "see when it knocks and back it off" mentality. Like I said, everyone has their own methods to this stuff, and nobody has the only right way. I prefer to use plugs as a big time indicator. Old school, but it doesn't lie to you.

BadAssPerformance
11-19-2007, 09:08 AM
JT is fairly sure that when using FAST on his 8V setup that he was only running I believe it was 10, or 12, or something like that advance when it was running so strong. I see that as far lower than what even a very good 8V head would require to make the power he did.

Yes and I as well as most would agree with that being very low timing for an 8valve

12° at 6000 rpm 25psi 10° abobe that... I have asked FAST and they said that what is in the table is what you get. I have data logs to prove it too.

8valves
11-19-2007, 09:23 AM
12° at 6000 rpm 25psi 10° abobe that... I have asked FAST and they said that what is in the table is what you get. I have data logs to prove it too.


I don't doubt you! I just still think it's unbelievable that the car would make the power you obivously were with so little timing. What were your EGT's like?

You get what's in the table, just so long as you don't have a modifier affecting it, and your dist. is put in at 0*.

If you install the dist. at 12 like normal, and don't tell it that... it has no idea. I believe there is a setup tab in there that will allow you to sync both together to be sure.

Aries_Turbo
11-19-2007, 09:27 AM
ok back to my question.... you guys with 2.4L's.... should i ramp back those timing values in the image that i posted as the boost goes up for my friends 2.4 that he is going to be building?

its going to be a stock SRT internal motor with prolly a 50trim t04e. looking for 350-400whp.

Brian

t3rse
11-19-2007, 09:36 AM
I don't doubt you! I just still think it's unbelievable that the car would make the power you obivously were with so little timing. What were your EGT's like?

You get what's in the table, just so long as you don't have a modifier affecting it, and your dist. is put in at 0*.

If you install the dist. at 12 like normal, and don't tell it that... it has no idea. I believe there is a setup tab in there that will allow you to sync both together to be sure.

i don't know if fast uses the hep, but you can pretty much put the dist wherever and it won't affect timing. I know that sounds weird but think about it. if you are still using the dist for spark distribution but the coil is fired via edis, then as long as the spark jumps from the button to the wire distributor placement won't affect timing.

8valves
11-19-2007, 09:47 AM
i don't know if fast uses the hep, but you can pretty much put the dist wherever and it won't affect timing. I know that sounds weird but think about it. if you are still using the dist for spark distribution but the coil is fired via edis, then as long as the spark jumps from the button to the wire distributor placement won't affect timing.

I don't know what he used to use for a signal, but I know that we had a Caprice used as a training aid, if the distributor got touched everything was out of wack.

Also, Honda's setup on AEM need their distributor sync'd in to what AEM says base is, and make sure that the dist. hits base timing the same, otherwise it's off again.

If the coil fired off to send the spark, but the button was near cyl 2 and needed to be near cyl 1, now what? I'm being serious here, I'm not sure how that would work out. That was my reasoning as to why they needed to be sync'd in. Thougths?

8valves
11-19-2007, 09:48 AM
ok back to my question.... you guys with 2.4L's.... should i ramp back those timing values in the image that i posted as the boost goes up for my friends 2.4 that he is going to be building?

its going to be a stock SRT internal motor with prolly a 50trim t04e. looking for 350-400whp.

Brian


I would. Most pump gas cars with pent roofs will make plenty of power safely at around 17-18* advance at WOT at full boost, 20 psi or under. If you're going higher on pump gas without any aids, then you might consider backing it off a bit as you go up. You'll have to make that judgment call based on how the car is reacting to it.

overlordsshadow
11-19-2007, 10:07 AM
Looks great man, looks damn fast too.

Aries_Turbo
11-19-2007, 11:07 AM
I would. Most pump gas cars with pent roofs will make plenty of power safely at around 17-18* advance at WOT at full boost, 20 psi or under. If you're going higher on pump gas without any aids, then you might consider backing it off a bit as you go up. You'll have to make that judgment call based on how the car is reacting to it.

ok, ill modify that table accordingly. i havent tuned a car with a pentroof head yet, just my 8v stuff so ill keep that in mind. thanks

Brian

t3rse
11-19-2007, 11:14 AM
I don't know what he used to use for a signal, but I know that we had a Caprice used as a training aid, if the distributor got touched everything was out of wack.

Also, Honda's setup on AEM need their distributor sync'd in to what AEM says base is, and make sure that the dist. hits base timing the same, otherwise it's off again.

If the coil fired off to send the spark, but the button was near cyl 2 and needed to be near cyl 1, now what? I'm being serious here, I'm not sure how that would work out. That was my reasoning as to why they needed to be sync'd in. Thougths?

you have to get it relatively close, but on a 4 cylinder there is 90* between leads, so there is a little less than 45* of error to still achieve a path of least resistence. on my 8v with SDS, i always eyeballed it, after i had done some experimenting and found that moving the cap didn't do anything unless i turned it more than 20* off either way.

SebringLX
11-19-2007, 12:37 PM
I have the actual stock SRT-4 timing table, not sure how much different it is from the one AEM uses. I'll post it up when I'm home later tonight. I also have the Stage 2 SRT-4 timing table, as well as stock and Stage 1 PT Cruiser automatic tables. It's nice to have access to over 400 parameters in the NGC PCMs. :eyebrows:

Aries_Turbo
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
cool, can you post them all?

Brian

BadAssPerformance
11-19-2007, 01:13 PM
I don't doubt you! I just still think it's unbelievable that the car would make the power you obivously were with so little timing. What were your EGT's like?

You get what's in the table, just so long as you don't have a modifier affecting it, and your dist. is put in at 0*.

If you install the dist. at 12 like normal, and don't tell it that... it has no idea. I believe there is a setup tab in there that will allow you to sync both together to be sure.

No EGT, just A/F of ~10:1-11:1 depending on the cal, same ~120-123 mph in that range, wonder how much power it could have made with more timing ;)

The FAST setup uses a magnetic crank trigger that the distributor references at like 40°-50° for the trigger and then the distributor is 12° or whatever you set it to in the table and check with the light.

Pat
11-19-2007, 01:44 PM
When discussing the ideal advance, doesn't where the engine make it's peak torque come into play? More advance = more cylinder pressure, cylinder pressure = engine torque. If you're engine set up is geared towards 4000-7000 rpm, you'll need less timing than a motor that is set up to sing from 6000-9000 provided they are running the same octane/AF.

Granted, I have no cal tuning experience, but I've always looked at timing as a way to maintain the highest possible cylinder pressure, regardless of VE at a given rpm. In other words, to offset lower VE in an rpm range. If the engine geometry, head, manifolds, turbo, etc are producing high volumetric efficiency at a given rpm range, the need for a ton of advance drops. If the set up is producing a low VE at a given rpm range, adding advance helps offset that by increasing cylinder pressure through when the combustion occurs. That how I can accept the lower timing advance numbers that you usually see with the typical, lower rpm (below 7k), big torque numbered turbo mopar vs a high revving, lower torque Honda.

Am I off the mark in my thinking here?

8valves
11-19-2007, 02:28 PM
When discussing the ideal advance, doesn't where the engine make it's peak torque come into play? More advance = more cylinder pressure, cylinder pressure = engine torque. If you're engine set up is geared towards 4000-7000 rpm, you'll need less timing than a motor that is set up to sing from 6000-9000 provided they are running the same octane/AF.

Granted, I have no cal tuning experience, but I've always looked at timing as a way to maintain the highest possible cylinder pressure, regardless of VE at a given rpm. In other words, to offset lower VE in an rpm range. If the engine geometry, head, manifolds, turbo, etc are producing high volumetric efficiency at a given rpm range, the need for a ton of advance drops. If the set up is producing a low VE at a given rpm range, adding advance helps offset that by increasing cylinder pressure through when the combustion occurs. That how I can accept the lower timing advance numbers that you usually see with the typical, lower rpm (below 7k), big torque numbered turbo mopar vs a high revving, lower torque Honda.

Am I off the mark in my thinking here?

It does, and you're right with your thinking. But even with a low rpm, typical TD setup... the VE is junk compared to most. Maybe junk is the wrong word, but it's far from ideal, especially if they're kept in near stock form. On the other hand of that particular point, a bone stock B16, H22, or F20C (among others) Honda engine peaks at over 100% VE in the top revs. They still use decent timing with boost, such as the examples that I have dealt with.

Now to throw a wrench into things, why did the SRT boys decide to use so much advance with the SRT4? I can tell you first hand it's not because they like that method, you should see how little timing the 6.1's run... sheesh! The engine isn't a slouch either, they're pretty strong pieces. Of particular interest is how small the exhaust ports are... unbelievable that anyone makes any power on the stock heads because of it... but they do!

Pat
11-19-2007, 02:34 PM
It does, and you're right with your thinking. But even with a low rpm, typical TD setup... the VE is junk compared to most. Maybe junk is the wrong word, but it's far from ideal, especially if they're kept in near stock form. On the other hand of that particular point, a bone stock B16, H22, or F20C (among others) Honda engine peaks at over 100% VE in the top revs. They still use decent timing with boost, such as the examples that I have dealt with.

But, the combustion event takes the same amount of time to complete. At top revs( 8-9k?), even at 100% ve, you need to start the burn earlier to get peak combustion pressure at the same point in the the crank rotation than you would at 4k. You can't make the mixture burn any faster at the same octane and AF ratio. Make sense?




Now to throw a wrench into things, why did the SRT boys decide to use so much advance with the SRT4? I can tell you first hand it's not because they like that method, you should see how little timing the 6.1's run... sheesh! The engine isn't a slouch either, they're pretty strong pieces. Of particular interest is how small the exhaust ports are... unbelievable that anyone makes any power on the stock heads because of it... but they do!


SRT? You've got me there. Maybe because of the ridiculously undersized turbo on there?

87glhs232
11-19-2007, 02:35 PM
very cool JT...very cool. :love:

BadAssPerformance
11-19-2007, 02:37 PM
Thanks, I'm glad it started such a good tuning discussion too :thumb:

8valves
11-19-2007, 03:24 PM
But, the combustion event takes the same amount of time to complete. At top revs( 8-9k?), even at 100% ve, you need to start the burn earlier to get peak combustion pressure at the same point in the the crank rotation than you would at 4k. You can't make the mixture burn any faster at the same octane and AF ratio. Make sense?





SRT? You've got me there. Maybe because of the ridiculously undersized turbo on there?


I see where you're coming from with that in relation to RPM. I know where Paul placed most people's timing curves and how they typical 8V car reacted to them, and also comparitevly (spelling?) how my car acted with each degree in comparison.

With the right combination of parts and cyl. head, the 8V cars act very similar to a 16V setup as far as power per psi, timing, etc.

I was seriously throwing that SRT4 stuff out there as a question really. I don't know why they have so much timing in them stock. The turbo was also the only thing that I could come up with as being deviant from other typical cars. :p Man they're small! You should see one off of a car if you haven't... crazy!

Pat
11-19-2007, 05:02 PM
I see where you're coming from with that in relation to RPM. I know where Paul placed most people's timing curves and how they typical 8V car reacted to them, and also comparitevly (spelling?) how my car acted with each degree in comparison.

With the right combination of parts and cyl. head, the 8V cars act very similar to a 16V setup as far as power per psi, timing, etc.

I was seriously throwing that SRT4 stuff out there as a question really. I don't know why they have so much timing in them stock. The turbo was also the only thing that I could come up with as being deviant from other typical cars. :p Man they're small! You should see one off of a car if you haven't... crazy!


I had an SRT-4 for a while and you're right, that damn turbo was tiny! I couldn't believe it when I was looking at the car, but it sure did scoot along pretty well. Mine went 13.40 @ 100.7 bone stock, right down to the paper air filter on an easy (don't break anything!!!) 1.95ish slick launch.

Speedeuphoria
11-19-2007, 05:49 PM
Now to throw a wrench into things, why did the SRT boys decide to use so much advance with the SRT4?

I believe the design of the stock SRT4 piston is some of the reason from what I've read. I'm not sure the exact science of it but that is a non standard piston design, it also sits low in the cyl at TDC

8valves
11-19-2007, 07:00 PM
I believe the design of the stock SRT4 piston is some of the reason from what I've read. I'm not sure the exact science of it but that is a non standard piston design, it also sits low in the cyl at TDC

Yeah, have you seen them out of the engine? Interesting for sure. We had my roomates out of his car, since it randomly fragged the crank trigger and destroyed just about everything in the bottom end. 'Tis a shame.

The new Honda K series engine has a strange piston design as well. Perhaps it's a new move in the automotive world. I couldn't understand why they put a wedgish dome on the piston, but with them so low in the hole I guess I understand it. Weird for sure though. There has to be a reason.

Speedeuphoria
11-19-2007, 07:14 PM
From the Hot Rod article
http://hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0309_2003_dodge_neon_srt4_engine_overview/pictures.html

"CFD analysis and dyno testing showed that the ski-jump-shaped dome on the piston was desirable for performance, so compression ratio was reduced to 8.1:1 by decreasing the piston compression height to lower piston position in the cylinder"

contraption22
11-19-2007, 07:37 PM
Yeah, have you seen them out of the engine? Interesting for sure. We had my roomates out of his car, since it randomly fragged the crank trigger and destroyed just about everything in the bottom end. 'Tis a shame.

The new Honda K series engine has a strange piston design as well. Perhaps it's a new move in the automotive world. I couldn't understand why they put a wedgish dome on the piston, but with them so low in the hole I guess I understand it. Weird for sure though. There has to be a reason.

Supposedly, the 2.4 Turbo pistons were designed that way to aid off-boost drivability.

SebringLX
11-19-2007, 07:50 PM
Timing table for '05 SRT-4:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/SRT4timing.JPG

Timing table for Stage 1 PT Cruiser automatic:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/PTStage1timing.JPG

Timing table for Stage 2 SRT-4:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/SRT4Stage2timing.JPG

Shelbydaytona91
11-19-2007, 11:02 PM
That car is sweeeeet. Those drag radial wheels look the best on it. I love the outside gauges too, you never see that any more... what are they for?

BadAssPerformance
11-19-2007, 11:49 PM
Thanks! Hood gauges are fuel pressure and oil pressure, two things I'd rather not plumb into the car, and I prefer mechanical gauges over electric ones :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
06-18-2008, 09:03 PM
It runs... and now drives. I drove it around the block... not once, but twice, and clicked off the first mile on the odometer since Topeka in '06. Time to try to tidy the mess up a bit and get it presentable for SDAC!

That is all.

Pat
06-18-2008, 09:13 PM
Sweet! If it went around the block and nothing fell off of it, I'd say it's ready for racing!

BadAssPerformance
06-18-2008, 09:16 PM
Whats the general rule for breaking in an aluminum rod motor or new ACT clutch? 1 mile ok? :D

cordes
06-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Whats the general rule for breaking in an aluminum rod motor or new ACT clutch? 1 mile ok? :D

I think all you really have to do is back it out of your driveway to fully brake it in. Otherwise you have to roll it off the trailer twice. :thumb:

fleckster
06-19-2008, 12:04 AM
Nice work, JT! Congrats! I think the correct breaking method for both is a staging burnout on a water "puddle"...

I can hardly wait to see it back from the "ashes" this weekend!

Birddog
06-19-2008, 12:41 AM
Nice work, JT! Congrats! I think the correct breaking method for both is a staging burnout on a water "puddle"...

I can hardly wait to see it back from the "ashes" this weekend!

Hopefully the "puddle" won't be provided by the car!!:p


I can't believe you haven't had that beast at the Grove yet for some shakedowns!! In private at your proving grounds?? Mebby:o
(I finally found a flowbench that's accessible.. How well do you know the guys at Bosch in Broadview?)

Third year in a row and no SDAC.. I'll make up for it at Belvedere! :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2008, 02:00 AM
Thanks guys, its only a year late too! And no more puddles, finally! :thumb:

Sorry you can't make it Sean, we'll definitely be partying in Belvidere :thumb:

Here is a spy photo from the BadAssPerformance proving grounds last Sunday :eyebrows: Too bad I didn't get a chance for any tuning...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9055&d=1213855187

Birddog
06-19-2008, 03:40 AM
Damn that truck looks purdy pullin that thing around!:thumb:
I'll run a quick plan for Belvedere through the list(provided we can take over the same hotel..).. Y'all ain't getting rid of me that easy:p I'll do an SDAC sooner or later. Maybe in a nice 88 Daytona or Dave's Omni;)

blk86trbo
06-19-2008, 07:41 AM
Congrats JT and have fun...man that truck looks sharp with those rims, nice stance!

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2008, 08:39 AM
Belividere sounds cool at the same hotel :thumb:

Thanks guys, the truck is fun, still not used to one with paint on it, although it has started coming off already. Other than the rimz and new tires it now has AirLift bags (to help that stance) and 3" SS pipes :thumb:

mcsvt
06-19-2008, 09:00 AM
Congrats JT, can't wait to see it finally.

I have to agree with everyone else, that's a great towing combo, looks great together :thumb:

contraption22
06-19-2008, 09:31 AM
Awesome news JT. Cannot wait to see this car.

WickedShelby88
06-19-2008, 12:02 PM
You da man JT:thumb: Patience has definitely paid off in you case.:)

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2008, 01:11 PM
Thanks guys... I cant wait to drive it now but have no time!

turbovanmanČ
06-19-2008, 04:07 PM
Thats great man, :thumb:
\
What times are you aiming for?

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2008, 04:42 PM
Thats great man, :thumb:
\
What times are you aiming for?

My first goal is 11.49 to justify the cage :thumb:

Not sure if it will see any times that fast at SDAC, besides some easy break in runs, I plan to use our track day to do some shakedown runs and put the initial tune on it.

SebringLX
06-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Congrats JT! I need to get back out to IL some time and check this out. ;)

BadAssPerformance
06-19-2008, 05:00 PM
Just LMK when you're planning to be in town :thumb:

BadAssPerformance
06-20-2008, 02:31 AM
Swapped rimz and gave it a bath.... ready to load on the trailer tomorrow/Saturday am :thumb:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9062&d=1213943392

DC Turismo
06-20-2008, 02:47 AM
Looking good playa!!!

WickedShelby88
06-20-2008, 07:08 AM
Uh oh hes breaking out the big guns.. Fools you better watch out yo!

BadAssPerformance
06-20-2008, 08:08 AM
LOL... the slicks are cuz I dont have room for 2 sets of tires, otherwise I'd leave it on the SRT rimz. Also, its still not tuned yet, so my goad is to get it tuned enough to be able to make a full pass or two :thumb:

shelbyplaya
06-20-2008, 09:31 AM
pretty!

BadAssPerformance
06-20-2008, 09:33 AM
Wow, I did not realize how crummy the resolution was on that pic when I posted it last night... damn sleep deprevation, LOL!

shelbyplaya
06-20-2008, 09:36 AM
GO take a new pic! make it sweet and sexy this time.

MiniMopar
06-20-2008, 11:44 AM
Looks good, JT. See you guys on Sunday. I'm hoping to catch the end of the car show, depending when I can hit the road.

Marcus86GLHS
06-20-2008, 11:49 AM
beautiful car and i really like the Bogart wheels.....11.49 or better? other than the slicks, this is in pure street legal trim? very nice.

BadAssPerformance
06-20-2008, 12:38 PM
GO take a new pic! make it sweet and sexy this time.

I took 20 pics, just picked a bad pic? LOL, lotsa 'pic(k)s' there!


beautiful car and i really like the Bogart wheels.....11.49 or better? other than the slicks, this is in pure street legal trim? very nice.

Yep, all street car except the slicks :thumb:

moparfwdsleeper
06-20-2008, 08:37 PM
So there are 19 pics missing?

Could you fix that for us:lol:

BadAssPerformance
06-20-2008, 11:53 PM
Maybe later.. no time now, still packing!

crazymadbastard
06-26-2008, 10:07 PM
So how did it go at the track?

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 12:21 AM
Started the weekend with 1 mile on the car. Mile #2 clicked off unloading and reloading it for the car show. So the day at Milan started with only 2 miles on the combo.

Run 1 - first pass on the engine, dogged it off the line, quick 1-2-3 upshift, so the whole run was almost in 3rd gear. 9.5:1 A/F, 15psi, 10° timing

R/T: 0.6962
60': 2.6219
330': 7.8556
1/8ET: 11.5279
1/8mph: 72.92
1000'ET: 14.2558
1000'mph: 92.59
1/4ET: 16.4418
1/4mph: 103.43

Run 2 - Used a little 2nd gear, then ran 3rd gear out, hit the 6800 rpm limiter in 3rd going thru the lights. 9.6:1 A/F, 15psi, 10° timing

R/T: 0.452
60': 2.3001
330': 6.5529
1/8ET: 9.5308
1/8mph: 84.12
1000'ET: 12.0002
1000'mph: 99.52
1/4ET: 14.0881
1/4mph: 105.61

Run 3 - Saw Dean in the other lasne so I thought I'd practice my reaction time ;) First pass to use 1st gear too. 9.6:1 A/F, 15psi, 10° timing

R/T: 0.0090
60': 2.0300
330': 5.7071
1/8ET: 8.5680
1/8mph: 86.20
1000'ET: 10.9921
1000'mph: 100.42
1/4ET: 13.0518
1/4mph: 108.98

Run 4 - First pass to launch a little harder, spun thru 1st. 9.7:1 A/F, 15psi, 10°timing

R/T: 0.3060
60': 1.8240
330': 5.382
1/8ET: 8.2520
1/8mph: 86.35
1000'ET: 10.6979
1000'mph: 98.92
1/4ET: 12.7910
1/4mph: 107.33

Run 5 - Launched a little less aggressively than the last run cuz the clutch has as many miles as the engine does so I wanted to take it easy. And then I missed 3rd egar, Doh! 10.3:1 A/F, 15psi, 12° timing

R/T: 0.1819
60': 2.0071
330': 5.6711
1/8ET: 8.8381
1/8mph: 79.25
1000'ET: 11.4251
1000'mph: 97.57
1/4ET: 13.5718
1/4mph: 104.69

Run 6 - re-do of the last run cal, 10.3:1 A/F, 15psi, 12° timing, but did not miss a gear this time.

R/T: 0.4949
60': 2.0253
330': 5.6800
1/8ET: 8.5861
1/8mph: 85.54
1000'ET: 11.0450
1000'mph: 99.55
1/4ET: 13.1360
1/4mph: 106.86

All in all it did great for the first trip out. I kept everything very conservative and took my time. The drivetrain has approximately 9 miles on it now. Next step is to get the car cooling a little better (cooling fan is not arranged efficiently) and to insure it so I can tune on the street a bit.

WickedShelby88
06-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Looks like your well on your way to an 11 second pass. Those trap speeds scream 12's all day long at the very least.

SebringLX
06-27-2008, 11:38 AM
Nice! :thumb: Can't wait to see what you run after it's tuned and not running pig rich. :eyebrows:

So what's your secret for those reaction times? I can't ever seem to get better than a .7 reaction time... but a lot of that is probably due to me trying to figure out how to launch best still, lol.

crazymadbastard
06-27-2008, 11:40 AM
Nice! I am slowly gathering parts for my 2.4 12 sec convertible.

skitzo_inc
06-27-2008, 11:47 AM
Sweet. I can only hope one day my Charger will run those trap speeds! I'm not shooting for below 12 though, a 13.5 would be nice for me. :)

crazy1eye
06-27-2008, 12:07 PM
If I didn't say to you at SDAC, you did a very nice job on putting the car together :thumb: Glad to see you took the time to do it right, & also, great job on the fabrications :hail:

minigts
06-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Well at 15psi and you pulled into the 12's, I'd say that's very impressive. I'd be interested to see what will happen with 16ps+. :D

Ditto on the car work, even more impressive in person. Now if I can just get my OUTSIDE of my car to look like the INSIDE of your engine bay, I'd be good. ;)

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 12:46 PM
Thanks guys... Still more fab to do, and I hope I can keep it nice and clean, I'm calling today to get the insurance upgraded to be able to drive it more on the street :thumb:

Good reaction times? practice practice practice, and I thought I woulda been red on that run, LOL!

20w/ashelby
06-27-2008, 05:45 PM
Glad to hear everything held together for its first shakedown runs. That's gotta be very comforting. You're gonna have a monster there once you go balls to the wall with it.

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Baby steps... it only has 9 miles on it! :D

contraption22
06-27-2008, 06:03 PM
Baby steps... it only has 9 miles on it! :D

Beat on it while the rings are still fresh!

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Mike, remember how I said "3 passes" ... it was very close with the first one ;) prolly cuz I started with a fattened up version of the 8v cal.

contraption22
06-27-2008, 06:20 PM
Yeah yeah yeah.... You and your common sense and patience....

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 06:31 PM
LOL... I was sooo tempted to change 6 things and double the boost for the last pass of the day ;)

deuce dodge
06-27-2008, 06:32 PM
JT

Way to go.......car looked great and ran strong........

thanks for bringing the car........now if your talking driving it on the street....you now have earned the next level.......WOW

deuce

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 07:15 PM
Thanks, and nice to meet you in person Deuce :thumb:

Yep, time for some street tuning before the next track trip :D

BadAssPerformance
06-27-2008, 10:38 PM
Fino has a vid of Run #2

http://s41.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid41.photobucket.com/albums/e290/glhs178/SDAC%2018/P1030885.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Anyone else have vids of it running at SDAC?

BadAssPerformance
07-25-2008, 12:23 AM
Took it to teh Elmhust 'Mopar' cruise night last night so about 25 more miles on it, then to Grove tonight for soem shakedown runs. First pass off the trailer, same tune as it ran at SDAC

R/T: 1.128
60': 1.849
330': 5.297
1/8ET: 8.179
1/8mph: 86.53
1000'ET: 10.6348
1/4ET: 12.729
1/4mph: 106.86

It felt good, seemed to pull well on 15psi, still 10:1 -ish.. I took some fuel out, adjusted timing up to 12° in the cells above 15psi to see if it is calculating from those, then went to run again... I heard a POP as I cam eout of the burnout and heard that distinct exhaust leak sound. I ran it anyways, but it definitely was running a little off and then to top it off I cheezed 3rd gear... still ran a '12' tho :D

R/T: -.120
60': 1.848
330': 5.328
1/8ET: 8.311
1/8mph: 83.05
1000'ET: 10.838
1/4ET: 12.969
1/4mph: 105.11

It was a good night, awesoem weather, nice and cool out, would have loved to make a few more runs... Will get it all back together before Sunday to go run it again. :thumb:

Reaper1
07-25-2008, 02:04 AM
Just out of curiosity, what popped?

Lotashelbys
07-25-2008, 02:23 AM
Thats looks pretty respectable:)

That car told me the whole day last week"JT,turn my boost up about twice as high:eyebrows:"

dodgeshadowchik
07-25-2008, 09:57 AM
Good job JT!! Yea, take it easy, you don't want to end up like my buddy with the Talon who blew up on his first run!

Then again.... his was suppost to be "ready to go!" As in he had it tuned and built by a shop.

11's on Sunday!!! ;) DO IT!

WickedShelby88
07-25-2008, 10:09 AM
Get Er Done!!!

BadAssPerformance
07-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Just out of curiosity, what popped?

The WG gasket, should be fixed tonight :)


Thats looks pretty respectable:)

That car told me the whole day last week"JT,turn my boost up about twice as high:eyebrows:"

Definitely more boost on Sunday :thumb:

2.216VTurbo
07-25-2008, 12:20 PM
Nice, 12's on just 15PSI might be some kind of record:D I'm imagining another 15psi of boost and 200 more WHP:hail::clap:

BadAssPerformance
07-25-2008, 02:12 PM
Maybe a G-body record... A local guy went 12's on 10psi at SDAC-14 :D

The stock cams are still straight up.. any tips for cam degreeing on 16v's?

Turbo3Iroc
07-25-2008, 02:19 PM
You beat me by a bit. I ran 12.77 @ 105 under stock boost cut a few years back.

BadAssPerformance
07-25-2008, 07:14 PM
Sweet! :thumb:

WG actuator gaskets made, now to install

WickedShelby88
07-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Sounds like you made spares this time just in case.

Turbo3Iroc
07-26-2008, 03:19 PM
Sweet! :thumb:

WG actuator gaskets made, now to install

I call a foul. You have to make us guess any custom made parts before you post about them! :lol::D:nod:

BadAssPerformance
07-26-2008, 03:26 PM
Doh! LOL... I did take pics of them so I could have! Guess I'll need to make something else.

BadAssPerformance
07-28-2008, 10:45 PM
Three runs from Sunday at teh Great Lakes Mopar Festival at Grove...

4k rpm launch, big bog.. missed a gear too :(

R/T: .111
60': 2.235
330': 6.396
1/8ET: 9.634
1/8mph: 76.99
1000'ET: 12.311
1/4ET: 14.520
1/4mph: 103.10

5k rpm launch, bogged again

R/T: .397
60': 2.162
330': 5.920
1/8ET: 8.890
1/8mph: 83.58
1000'ET: 11.426
1/4ET: 13.574
1/4mph: 106.11

In thsi next one, I lost the exhaust gasket high end to hurt ET and mph, BUT, this was a fun race, I was in the left lane and a big block sounding Camaro was in the right lane ... play by play below ... I had him by a fender to a car all the way till 1/8 mile where he got out of it :D

R/T: .320 ------- .578
60': 1.882 ------- 1.681
330': 5.378 ------- 5.327
1/8ET: 8.300 ------- 8.147
1/8mph: 85.25 ------- 82.07
1000'ET: 10.808 ------- 11.286
1/4ET: 12.948 ------- 14.877
1/4mph: 104.83 ------- 56.15

Reaper1
07-28-2008, 11:12 PM
Nice! How did you overcome bogging? That was the issue I was having with my car at the track this last time out(then my clutch decided to not engage all the way :mad: ). On that run I was trying a 4K or so launch, it seemed better, but due to the clutch thing I honestly don't know 100%.

Turbo3Iroc
07-29-2008, 01:12 AM
More tire pressure or more rpm will get rid of the bog.

JT, did he break something or was he afraid to lose to a 4 cyl car? Did you go talk to him?

BadAssPerformance
07-29-2008, 04:06 PM
Anti-bog... The last one left at 6k rpm :D

I did not talk to him but saw him run... pretty sure he just got out of it cuz it sounded likeass

Reaper1
07-29-2008, 06:08 PM
LOL....I suppose that would get rid of bogging!

dodgeshadowchik
07-30-2008, 09:53 AM
JT: in your last run, I would've beat you! LOL

dsm ftl!

BadAssPerformance
07-30-2008, 10:31 AM
JT: in your last run, I would've beat you! LOL

dsm ftl!

You would have beat a 12.94? ;)

dodgeshadowchik
07-30-2008, 10:34 AM
ack i cant read today. :) i mistook the one for as a 14.8.

i SHOULD know better that even loosing a gasket, u still will run faster than a 14.

i am being the forum entertainment for the day.

BadAssPerformance
07-31-2008, 06:58 PM
LOL.. reading suck! ;)

Here is a pic that Jeff got of the Z in front of the Camaro before it lifted :D

http://www.extremepsi.org/gallery/albums/MoparFestival2008/IMG_8385.jpg

dodgeshadowchik
07-31-2008, 09:44 PM
sweeeeeeeeeeet!!

shadow88
07-31-2008, 10:29 PM
Very sweet. What are your settings now? boost, max rpm, timing, a/f ratios, you know, the good details.

BadAssPerformance
07-31-2008, 10:45 PM
15psi, 7k, 12°, 11:1 :)

shadow88
07-31-2008, 10:55 PM
Looooooots left in that engine. Very nice. When does the boost get gradually turned up?

BadAssPerformance
08-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Gonna do some higher boost testing this weekend. :)

2.216VTurbo
08-01-2008, 01:11 AM
Gonna do some higher boost testing this weekend. :)


Dammit! About time, 25 PSI here we come:thumb::clap:

BadAssPerformance
08-02-2008, 02:56 PM
Almost there, just got back from a test drive... it runs pretty good at 20psi so far :D

Was on one of the local tuning roads (keep in mind I live just outside of Chicago city limits so this is not exactly a wide open country road) and logging in 3rd... and at the top of 3rd I saw a squad car in the distance so did a hard brake check :eek: and luckily never saw him again.. it was a 40mph zone.

cordes
08-02-2008, 11:11 PM
Almost there, just got back from a test drive... it runs pretty good at 20psi so far :D

Was on one of the local tuning roads (keep in mind I live just outside of Chicago city limits so this is not exactly a wide open country road) and logging in 3rd... and at the top of 3rd I saw a squad car in the distance so did a hard brake check :eek: and luckily never saw him again.. it was a 40mph zone.

Be careful out there JT. I would imagine that there are actually cars that could run into you up there.

BadAssPerformance
08-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I need to test in tune in your neck of the woods Cordes!

Update...runs well at 23psi... 9.5:1 A/F :D

cordes
08-02-2008, 11:20 PM
I need to test in tune in your neck of the woods Cordes!

Update...runs well at 23psi... 9.5:1 A/F :D

Wow that must be really scooting along for sure.

Don't be shy if you want to check out roads that are straight as an arrow with nothing on them for 5 miles at a time. Heck, my house is about 150 yards from a road with 1/2mi. of US45 with no driveways, intersections etc. It makes for some convenient tuning.

BadAssPerformance
08-02-2008, 11:23 PM
It seems to pull well.. need more boost, its like crack!

5 miles of straight would be killer.. how far are you from here again? 3-ish hours? I might be able to find a useable road a little closer...

cordes
08-02-2008, 11:32 PM
It seems to pull well.. need more boost, its like crack!

5 miles of straight would be killer.. how far are you from here again? 3-ish hours? I might be able to find a useable road a little closer...

Yeah, about 3-3 1/2 depending on if you drive really slowly on the freeway like I do.

Reaper1
08-03-2008, 10:41 AM
You could always throw some junk brakes pads and stuff on therer, and just use the brakes to load the engine. You can then tune at a lower, safer speed.

Of course if you have the 11" brakes like me, that's kinda hard to find "junk" parts! LOL

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2008, 11:11 AM
That would be an option except that I need to data log through the whole rpm range... 6500rpm in 3rd ~ 100mph

cordes
08-03-2008, 11:32 AM
That would be an option except that I need to data log through the whole rpm range... 6500rpm in 3rd ~ 100mph

Drag them in second.

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2008, 01:52 PM
True, I can get a good data log in 2nd, it just got really short with the added boost.

Reaper1
08-03-2008, 08:02 PM
But if you load the car down with the brakes, then it shouldn't be SO short...maybe LOL

cordes
08-03-2008, 09:41 PM
But if you load the car down with the brakes, then it shouldn't be SO short...maybe LOL

yeah, I was surprised at just how easy it is to manipulate the car with the brakes so you can tune at a given RPM. I tried it out the day after the tech session on the way back from taking Joy to the train station and haven't stopped since. It works great.

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2008, 10:50 PM
Thats the thing tho, I'm not looking at a set RPM, rather a sweep thru the RPM at a given psi. All my tables are MAP vs. RPM and I can overlay the log directly on them so one good pull is all you need :)

cordes
08-03-2008, 10:55 PM
Thats the thing tho, I'm not looking at a set RPM, rather a sweep thru the RPM at a given psi. All my tables are MAP vs. RPM and I can overlay the log directly on them so one good pull is all you need :)

Dang JT, you and your fancy pants FAST!

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2008, 10:59 PM
LOL.. its like "tuning for dummies" :D

cordes
08-03-2008, 11:03 PM
LOL.. its like "tuning for dummies" :D

Well either way, I was really impressed with it at SDAC. You've got "tuned in three passes" I've got "Won't throw a code to tell you the CTS is bad". I think I'm still slightly ahead money wise though. At least I have that going for me. :o

BadAssPerformance
08-03-2008, 11:13 PM
Yeah, no doubt.. they should spell it FA$T

cordes
08-03-2008, 11:15 PM
Yeah, no doubt.. they should spell it FA$T

I loled. :clap:

BadAssPerformance
08-27-2008, 07:28 PM
OK... the car started having issues at the Nats... ran slower on 24psi and 15psi.. WTF!? Lower vacuum at idle, rough as heck down the track... Thinking bad valves, I borrowed a leakage tester .... It barely started up and then all of a sudden it ran flawlessly!?... I had it backed into the garage so went and turned it around so it was pointing in to work on it. Check leak down and compression on all 4... cylinder number 2 seems to have more than the others but not terrible. So I fired it up and watched to see if the O2 sensor was reading (I think it might be bad) and to get some heat into the sensor I cracked the throttle hard a couple times and it ran like crap again and died.... I let it cool off then went back and put #1 to TDC and then noticed that my crank trigger was off... Doh! I guess the damn pulley spun somehow... not sure if that's all that happened at the Nats or not, and hope nothing got hurt running the timing that far off... I took the pulley into work and welded a bead inside it and cut it back out with a boring bar on the lathe to make it more of a press fit. I put it back together and it would not start. I triple checked the crank and cam references and nothing. So I thought it was cuz I changed the crank pickup location so I messed with he cam sensor and nothing... OK, the eDist has LEDs that tell when the crank and can cycle, and those lit up when they were supposed to... then for the heck of it I looked around in the program and saw that the firing order was not set, so I set it but it didn't seem to take, so I looked at the other parameters and for some reason it did not list the number of cylinders, WTF? So I set it to 4 and tried it and it fired right up... *DER* I have no idea how that field was blanked out!? Whatever, it runs. I have to set the timing now but then it should be good to go hopefully!

blk86trbo
08-27-2008, 09:42 PM
Great news JT, glad you figured it out!

BadAssPerformance
08-27-2008, 09:45 PM
Thanks, I hope so! I got the timing set and now just need to but teh radials on it for a spirited drive around the neighborhood... tomorrow :D

Turbodave
08-27-2008, 10:10 PM
Stupid flux capacitors, you just can't trust those things...

cordes
08-27-2008, 10:54 PM
Stupid flux capacitors, you just can't trust those things...

So true. The biggest problem is getting one sized properly to handle the 1.21 gigawatts.