BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

[cordes]

The FSM shows the proper part being C-6371. However that does not turn up any good results on google.

C-4660 is the one for the 525 which shows what the 523/568 one should look like. I wonder if it would even work with the larger bearing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280400934704&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=6c5bbbf212a0a0266f70a9d0ffe0cc97&rvr_id=129654099714&ua=WXS%3F&itemid=280400934704#ht_832wt_939

[86Shelby]

I noticed one big difference between the grey and natural colored plastic feeders from different 568s & 523s is the size of the hole in the center. The grey one is roughly 1/8-3/16" larger diameter. I didn't compare them to any of my 555/520 stash.

[MiniMopar]

I've pulled them out with a small puller with the arms reversed. Normally, I'd put a socket over the oil guide thingy to protect it, but you don't have that problem. Now that i have a slide hammer, I use that. LMK if you need to borrow it.

[Reeves]

I've pulled them out with a small puller with the arms reversed. Normally, I'd put a socket over the oil guide thingy to protect it, but you don't have that problem. Now that i have a slide hammer, I use that. LMK if you need to borrow it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of what attachment you use on the end of the slide hammer. I've never had that great of luck with mine and neither has Warren. We'll get it out, but the bearing R.I.P.

[MiniMopar]

If i remember correctly, I just use the regular jaws. Now that i think about it, I did have to grind on both my pullers to get the jaws securely behind the rollers. I haven't used the slide hammer in a case where I wanted to save the bearing that I can think of. If I were to do that, I'd probably go back the normal puller/socket method. Bearing and hammers don't mix well. ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Hmmmm.. this sounds like its gonna be fun.

Thanks guys!

[Reeves]

Hmmmm.. this sounds like its gonna be fun.

Thanks guys!

I'd have a brand new bearing in hand before you remove yours. Even though, I'm guessing yours is probably RIP already.

[BadAssPerformance]

Well thats the trick.. the bearing *might* be OK but the inner race appears to be stuck in it :o

I got a bearing kit on the way so should be good. What keeps the shaft from walking in like that?

[MiniMopar]

It's been eating aluminum. Do you know why your shaft was walking yet? I've never seen one of those ball bearings (at the front of the shaft) fail. Is the clip on the shaft in front of it intact? Does the bearing support plate seem deformed at all?

[BadAssPerformance]

Everything *looked* OK but I need to measure stuff...

[MiniMopar]

Check the Al plate for flatness.

[BadAssPerformance]

The bearing plate... check. Yeah, the steel backing plate is a tad small on A568...

[Reeves]

How does the bearing look/feel on the other side of the main shaft?
Was the retainer ring on the bearing still in tact?
Did the retainer ring have a good *squish* between the 2 plates (i.e. not much clearance?)

That's the only thing that keeps the main shaft from walking.

[glhs0426]

The FSM shows the proper part being C-6371. However that does not turn up any good results on google.

C-4660 is the one for the 525 which shows what the 523/568 one should look like. I wonder if it would even work with the larger bearing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280400934704&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=6c5bbbf212a0a0266f70a9d0ffe0cc97&rvr_id=129654099714&ua=WXS%3F&itemid=280400934704#ht_832wt_939

Lucky me had access to the right Miller tools. You might have to do a little grinding on the bottom of the fingers to clear the case to use this. Flip the fingers around and it will grab the race. Patience, patience.

http://www.ntxtools.com/Merchant/graphics/00000001/otc-4579.gif

[BadAssPerformance]

^^^ I got something Chi-milar :thumb:

[glhs0426]

Were both the large and the small snap rings on the big bearing in the bearing retainer plate? The large snap ring keeps the bearing from walking in the bearing retainer plate and the small snap ring keeps the shaft from walking on the bearing.

John

[BadAssPerformance]

Yes they were both on there...

Was able to salvage a black slinger thungy out of a junk 555 case

[SebringLX]

Trannies and balls and shafts, oh my! :yuck:

When do you think you'll have it back up and running?

[BadAssPerformance]

Hoping to get it back together and hit the Grove on Labor Day... Club outing?

[22shelby]

Hoping to get it back together and hit the Grove on Labor Day... Club outing?
im in......:thumb: i should have the car too:love:

[glhs0426]

Do you think the bearing was failing and letting the shaft move radially causing the plastic thingy to be destroyed, or was it just the inner race moving outward off the shaft causing the damage?

Is the outer snap ring groove still at the same height as the other snap ring groove in the bearing housing?

[BadAssPerformance]

Pretty sure the inner race sliding off the shaft killed the plastic slinger. Not sure on the snap ring grooves, I'll tear into it today

[BadAssPerformance]

Realized I had to take the trans out to get the inner bearing out past the diff/ring gear so I did that. BTW, Posted a coupel pics... for safety, I highly recommend getting one of these engine support beams.

I also started working on getting the bearing out... the race that came off the shaft started digging into the case a little and is up against it... think I gotta make a little shoe to wedge under it to pop it out.. its not coming out of the rollers by itself. :( and tips?

Got a bearing kit that came with almost all of the parts needed, no 1-2 shift fork pads and the WRONG intermediate shaft slinger.. it came with the green one instead of the black (sometimes grey) one.... posted pics of the differences.

Also a pic of the gold bar for the new 3-4 pads...

[Shadow]

We should really have a stickied thread in the trans section on all of the right and available parts for our 5-spd trannies. How much was that kit, if you don't mind me asking?

[fleckster]

Do we need something more than this:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=134

[Reeves]

Realized I had to take the trans out to get the inner bearing out past the diff/ring gear so I did that. BTW, Posted a coupel pics... for safety, I highly recommend getting one of these engine support beams.

What FD you running? I know with a 3.05FD that the bearing clears the ring gear no problem, and I think that it also clears the 3.50FD.

I've seen that cross beam before. Looks pretty nice in use. Might have to get me one some day!

[Shadow]

Do we need something more than this:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=134

See now that's my problem. I go look in the tranny section for stuff like that and don't even think of the KC. :o

I'll have to read through it, looks pretty good. Are most of those parts still available?

[BadAssPerformance]

What FD you running? I know with a 3.05FD that the bearing clears the ring gear no problem, and I think that it also clears the 3.50FD.

I've seen that cross beam before. Looks pretty nice in use. Might have to get me one some day!

3.50 from... maybe this is a 520/555 to 523/568 case difference?

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25126&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25126')

Bearing set was like $250 shipped? I plan to call them and ask about the missing and mixed parts.

[BadAssPerformance]

...so, any hot tips how to get that damn inner race out?

[cordes]

...so, any hot tips how to get that damn inner race out?

ETA: RIF. Could you heat up the case until the race and all falls out?

[Reeves]

...so, any hot tips how to get that damn inner race out?

Are you saying the race that is supposed to be on the shaft, but it is now stuck in the bearing?

Dremel with a flex attachment, and a small cutoff wheel to make some relief cuts in it?

[MiniMopar]

The inner race walked off the shaft?!? It was a PITA to get the new one on my A568...that sucker was TIGHT. I had to chill the shaft and heat the race pretty hot just to get it to START to go on the shaft. I suppose with a big arbor press it wouldn't be an issue, but alas.

[MiniMopar]

...so, any hot tips how to get that damn inner race out?

Off the shaft? Dremel with a flex wheel. Get as close as you can without hitting the gear or the shaft. Then hit the slot you made with a cold chisel and sledge. I still couldn't get it off and had to make a second cut and break on the opposite side.

[turbovanman²]

We should really have a stickied thread in the trans section on all of the right and available parts for our 5-spd trannies. How much was that kit, if you don't mind me asking?

I can get them too, $200 for the 555 kit with all the pads if you need and the 568 kit is a bit more, $300 IIRC.


...so, any hot tips how to get that damn inner race out?

On the 555 I did, they put the case in a jet washer with the cup facing down and it falls out, 99% of the time, :o

[135sohc]

Do we need something more than this:

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=134

It needs to be updated as more stuff is NLA. :yuck:


3.50 from... maybe this is a 520/555 to 523/568 case difference?

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25126&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25126')

Bearing set was like $250 shipped? I plan to call them and ask about the missing and mixed parts.

If you get more than a 'tough luck" responce consider yourself lucky. When I called to ask about the same kit you just bought the person was rather useless and didnt have the slightest clue about anything.

[Reeves]

If you get more than a 'tough luck" responce consider yourself lucky. When I called to ask about the same kit you just bought the person was rather useless and didnt have the slightest clue about anything.

CSXTRA (WARREN) needs to chime in here. IIRC he had a great experience with them and he got our kits.

[135sohc]

Maybe I just got the one idiot there then ? When I called and asked what exactly was included in the "small parts package" such as shift fork pads, oil slinger ect the person on the other end didnt have the slightest clue what I was talking about. :confused2:

[BadAssPerformance]

Bleh, I knew you guys would say ----ing Dremel :( OK....

Regarding Transtar, they have many locations, I called my local one hoping they had it on the shelf, guy was cool... maybe the one you called was answered by a d-bag?

[86Shelby]

I'm with Simon, on putting the case in the hot parts washer for an extended time and wait for it to drop. I've done that once with good results. 2nd time I went crazy trying different pullers, chisels, etc to break one out. The 3rd I dropped off at a local shop that's known for good work with bearings and picked it up the next day with a $15 bill which included them installing the new bearing. I like option 3 as it allowed me to keep a little bit of my remaining hair.

[BadAssPerformance]

I need a $15 shop around here...

Well, got tho MoFo out, Dremel'ed a couple grooves in the inner race then bend some metal and welded a nut onto it to thread onto the slide hammer... put it in the grooves and used a prybar to hold it in and a coupel busted knuckles later it came out. Why was it hard to get out? well it was abotu 1/8" into the aluminum housing :( luckily no holes tho! :) To get the bearing out, I took the carrier and rollers out and used the 3-jaws on the slide hammer.. worked great

Oh, and I wonder if the piece of an old stock 3-4 shift fork pad that was in there was a potential cause of issue?

[MiniMopar]

The only reason I can come up with as to why the race would walk off the shaft is if the shaft was not square with the bearing and the rollers were literally skidding across the surface and working the race off. That means you have a lot of case twisting going on. Maybe tack-weld the new race on?

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, I'm going to use this case again as an R&D study.. I'm pretty sure its twisting, and the aluminum plate has a crack between bearing holes :(

Hmmm... I was going to use the Permatex green, but some TIG glue might be better

[Reeves]

Yeah, I'm going to use this case again as an R&D study.. I'm pretty sure its twisting, and the aluminum plate has a crack between bearing holes :(

Hmmm... I was going to use the Permatex green, but some TIG glue might be better

Green Loc-tite or Green Perma-Tex is some BAD MOFO SH*T! We use it at work. It's unbelievable how a bearing can be a very loose press fit...use some green glue, put it back together, come back the next day and it'll take a sh*t ton of pressure to get it back out!

But, LMAO at "TIG glue" !!

[MiniMopar]

Yeah, the crack is a definite sign. Wonder if there is another crack somewhere or maybe it has to do with how your block is supporting the bell?

[Pat]

or maybe it has to do with how your block is supporting the bell?

Interesting thought....I wonder if there is something the 568 to 2.4 block mating that is allowing the trans case to flex a bit.

[BadAssPerformance]

The 2.4L actually has a brace from the oil pan to the bell housing... so 6 bolts connecting the two.

[glhs0426]

Show the crack..er..um, show some pictures of the cracked aluminum plate.

[BadAssPerformance]

Some pics...

[cordes]

Wow JT. You've got a lot of problems going on in that thing. How fresh was it when you originally put it in?

[BadAssPerformance]

Very... all the dog teeth looked good even. Amazing what a few passes will do, LOL!

[cordes]

Very... all the dog teeth looked good even. Amazing what a few passes will do, LOL!

I was afraid of that. Do you think it's time for that Al support plate to be made out of steel? Added webbing on the case to stop it from twisting?

Do you think the missed shifts are causing the input and main shafts to try and jump out of the case by spreading them apart?

[MiniMopar]

Missed shifts won't do that (no torque). It's when he hits the gear that probably pisses it off. :) The most force on the case will be 1st or 2nd gear (depending if he actually hooks in 1st). After that, the input shaft loses more of its mechanical advantage to "climb" the gears of the main shaft. Those forces are what makes the shafts want to spread. Add to that the weird torquing that happens when the axles are trying to swing the whole drive train by the diff case into JT's lap during the launch.

Now that I said all that, I wonder if your super-solid motor mounts might not be absorbing enough of the "bang" between gears.

[BadAssPerformance]

Good explanation. Yeah... solid... the only thing absorbing said bang is the tires :o

[Reeves]

JT, Do you still use 5th gear?
I was planning to remove mine and make a new end plate out of some aluminum billet. I was thinking:
1) I don't really need 5th
2) It's more crap turning that could save some weight
3) The trans will be shorter, lighter, easier to install/remove
4) I can make new end plates that may help the twisting going on

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah, I thought about that... but, its still a street car ;)
...and I dream of finding out what it would do high end :eek:

[Reeves]

Yeah, I thought about that... but, its still a street car ;)
...and I dream of finding out what it would do high end :eek:

With the 3.05FD and 555 gear set, I don't really need 5th no mo, even on the interstate!

[Rampage16V]

That's just a small crack! LOL And thats at the other end of the trans from the engine don't think the fact that its a 2.4 would too much. Was just thinking it cracked simply because there isn't much material there. You might want to use some stud and bearing mount loctite in that spot too when you put it together. I have seen non cracked end plate bearings spin there. Might make it tough to get off later though.

[Rampage16V]

Hey JT If you want the rest of that trans its still here

[BadAssPerformance]

Good idea on the crack and thanks Dean, a fresh case might be needed :o

[glhs0426]

Is a 568 case really that much different from a 523 case aside from the crank sensor mounting pad?

FYI, the parts book shows the bearing support plate is the same 523/543/568.

John

[135sohc]

Is a 568 case really that much different from a 523 case aside from the crank sensor mounting pad?

FYI, the parts book shows the bearing support plate is the same 523/543/568.

John

The case is the same. The 523/543 both have the cps mounting boss, just not finished.

[86Shelby]

Yup they are the same. I'm using a 523 case in my R/T after machining the crank sensor hole.

[Shadow]

I had heard that the difference between 555/520 and 568/523 cases was that the 555/568 cases were hardened by heat treating.

[BadAssPerformance]

Not sure how hard you can get A356 or whatever common cast Al they are made of? Where'd you hear that, Ed Peters?

[Shadow]

Not sure how hard you can get A356 or whatever common cast Al they are made of? Where'd you hear that, Ed Peters?

Can't recall. Was several years ago and I was getting a trans built and we needed a case. Someone somewhere told me the 555/586's had hardened gears and hardened cases.

We ended up going with a 523 case anyways because I really didn't think it would make a difference at 350WHP and in the last 5 years or so it hasn't.

[cordes]

Can't recall. Was several years ago and I was getting a trans built and we needed a case. Someone somewhere told me the 555/586's had hardened gears and hardened cases.

We ended up going with a 523 case anyways because I really didn't think it would make a difference at 350WHP and in the last 5 years or so it hasn't.

I think it says something to that affect in the FSMs doesn't it?

ETA: No, it just says that the trans is stronger and has a die cast case.

[MiniMopar]

It was something Ed Peters said. Then he went off on some tangent about how New Process was storing the castings in the parking lot or something causing them to crack...or something like that. This was in the "Phoenix Tapes" I believe.

[Reeves]

It was something Ed Peters said. Then he went off on some tangent about how New Process was storing the castings in the parking lot or something causing them to crack...or something like that. This was in the "Phoenix Tapes" I believe.

I have those tapes....but no vcr.. LOL.
Oh wait....I think I have a VCR in my *excercise* room. Haven't seen that in a LOOONNG time!

[BadAssPerformance]

Is that where you do your Jane Fonda workouts? :eek:

[Reeves]

Is that where you do your Jane Fonda workouts? :eek:

But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda :confused2:

[Rampage16V]

I heard that case thing somewhere too and also thought wtf hardened Aluminum?

[contraption22]

But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda :confused2:

My anaconda don't want none unless you got buns, hun.

[2.216VTurbo]

Yup they are the same. I'm using a 523 case in my R/T after machining the crank sensor hole.

I had to machine the case a lil thinner there, the CPS pad on the RT cars has an addtional machining step there to prep for it. I ended bolting the clutch/PP/flywheel together then sliding them onto the trans splines to mock up how deep the CPS needed to protrude into the case. While you're at it, make that hole oval so you can slide the CPSalong the axis of rotation of the flywheel. Then report back if that really will adjust base ignition timing on the TIII's:eyebrows:

[Shadow]

So is that bar bronze or bronze silicon?

[BadAssPerformance]

No Si...

[Sherri007]

My anaconda don't want none unless you got buns, hun.

you can do sidebends or situps, but please don't lose that butt

[BadAssPerformance]

Lol...

[22shelby]

No Si...



no its "ceeeeeeeee":eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL...

OK, Learned something tonight... the plastic slinger thingy is NOT the same part number from a A555/520 to a A568/523 because the 68/23 bearing is larger. See attached pic with the A525 (Green) A520/555 (Black) and A523/568 (Grey). Fleck, we need to update the KC article?

And... I just put the bearing in with the black one and yeah.. its trapped behind there but its loose :( Guess I'm just gonna cross fingers and hope for the best on this one :o

Also.. LOOK AT MY GOLD TEEF! :D

[glhs0426]

Dems some good lookin' teefes.

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks... hope they work as well as they look, LOL!

[BadAssPerformance]

Oh... and think I'll have any problems if the plastic slinger is allowed to move a little behind that bearing?

[cordes]

Oh... and think I'll have any problems if the plastic slinger is allowed to move a little behind that bearing?

I've not taken the slinger out of a case yet. How id the oil directed through it.

I'll be honest and say that I would be very nervous about that thing floating around since it is responsible for directing oil down the shaft.

[black86glhs]

Make sure the grooves are nice and smooth. I'm not sure how well they will hold up, but they do look fine.:clap:

[Reeves]

Oh... and think I'll have any problems if the plastic slinger is allowed to move a little behind that bearing?

You can't press the bearing in deeper to hold the slinger in place?

I think if it can move around, then the *spout* will rub on the inside of the shaft?

[Rampage16V]

I had to machine the case a lil thinner there, the CPS pad on the RT cars has an addtional machining step there to prep for it. I ended bolting the clutch/PP/flywheel together then sliding them onto the trans splines to mock up how deep the CPS needed to protrude into the case. While you're at it, make that hole oval so you can slide the CPSalong the axis of rotation of the flywheel. Then report back if that really will adjust base ignition timing on the TIII's:eyebrows:

It will I did this to my 95 Grand Cherokee V8 and now it pings a little

[MiniMopar]

Oh... and think I'll have any problems if the plastic slinger is allowed to move a little behind that bearing?

Nope. Mine wiggled a little too on one of them.

[BadAssPerformance]

how much is a little? ...not much holding this one steady :eek:

[Reaper1]

You can do different heat treatments to aluminum. Mostly it is for stress relief, but certain processes can increase the toughness of the material depending on the alloy being used.

[MiniMopar]

how much is a little? ...not much holding this one steady :eek:

Hmm...it shouldn't wiggle that much. On the other hand, your case has been "modified" behind the slinger. If the bearing can be taken out without hurting it, it might be worth putting some kind of shim behind it. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it unless you think it might rub on the shaft.

[BadAssPerformance]

Well, we'll see....

OK, trans is back in, all back together, fresh oil change, new harness (last one expired 8/31) , on the slicks, ready to get loadd up tomorrow and go to the track *fingers crossed*

[2.216VTurbo]

Uh, maybe you should try to get to bed before 1 am then:D

[BadAssPerformance]

Its only 12:07 here :D

[Juggy]

good luck!

[Reeves]

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks guys, going to load it up right now!

[22shelby]

first monster going down now, then time to load up.... see u there JT

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, cool, just talked to Tommy, he's loading up too :thumb:

[Pat]

10.50's, right? :D

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, wishful thinking Pat... I got the mile per hour tho...

Trip to Grove today...

Run #1 - Right off the trailer, spun out of the hole, missed 2nd bad :mad: but got third :) granny style after misisng 2nd :o LOL! but made some big end power :)

R/T: .075
60': 1.818
330': 5.665
1/8ET: 8.255
1/8mph: 100.14
1000'ET: 10.325
1/4ET: 12.043
1/4mph: 132.60

Run #2 - spun in 1st, drove thru it till it caught up and missed 2nd AGIAN :mad: but not too bad of a run for missing a gear ;)

R/T: .025
60': 1.754
330': 5.039
1/8ET: 7.536
1/8mph: 102.85
1000'ET: 9.570
1/4ET: 11.275
1/4mph: 133.25

3rd felt good, although I granny shifted it, still felt good. Not sure what happened to 2nd... feels like crap, even driving around the pits... guess its gotta come apart again. :(

[DaveSkrab]

Not "double Clutchin" like ya should? ;)

Good Numbers JT! I'd be happy it went back together and functioned!

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, as waiting for that ;) Nope, not double clutching, you got me :o

Thanks... and yeah, 2nd is not happy, even before the 1st pass.... so it only partially finctioned, LOL!

[MiniMopar]

3rd felt good, although I granny shifted it, still felt good. Not sure what happened to 2nd... feels like crap, even driving around the pits... guess its gotta come apart again. :(

Does the whole motion feel stiff/crunchy? If so, that will clear once the loose steel shrapnel is out of the slider. If it keeps grinding, I bet you trashed one pad. Happened to mine and it got better after the other pad went.

[BadAssPerformance]

At slow speeds it kind of just grinds as it goes into gear but goes right in... at 7000 rpm it made a bad grinding sound and just didnt go in. I did flip the 1-2 pads so the frsh side was on 2nd, maybe that was a mistake?

[MiniMopar]

Prolly. Dang things. My money's on one pad being half gone. Were these still plastic?

[glhs0426]

Get to thrashing! My little brother really wants to see the Daytona. I believe he said something to the effect of, "The only Daytonas that run 10's have a V8 under the hood." He will be at St. Louis this coming week watching you (bracket) race the Daytona (Shadow).

Seriously, get the transmission finished and back in the car. I'll help you finish things up in the hotel parking lot Thursday night/Friday morning.

[dodgeshadowchik]

bummer JT! But I know you'll get it back together and functioning right... :)

[22shelby]

minor details, however the damn thing was making some power!!!! holy mph batman!!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Prolly. Dang things. My money's on one pad being half gone. Were these still plastic?

Those were the brass ones... the 2nd gear side was smashed just like the plastic ones do tho (pics of both sides attached). Hmm.. I could put the nice plastic ones on 5th gear there? ... or is it somethign else? definitely makes that ZZzhiiiing! sound going into gear that we all know and associate with shift fork issues tho...


Get to thrashing! My little brother really wants to see the Daytona. I believe he said something to the effect of, "The only Daytonas that run 10's have a V8 under the hood." He will be at St. Louis this coming week watching you (bracket) race the Daytona (Shadow).

Seriously, get the transmission finished and back in the car. I'll help you finish things up in the hotel parking lot Thursday night/Friday morning.

I'll tear into it tomorrow after work and see what it is. Would love to bring for sure so youand your bro can see it :thumb: and piss some v8 guys off :D

BTW, Thanks for the offer! I'm a little too anal with that car to wrech on it in parking lots tho :o hopefully it gets back together, its more fun and less work than trying to go rounds with the 13.00 Shadow, LOL... you see those R/T's from today? ;) Damn fast car is making me late in the Shadow now :o


bummer JT! But I know you'll get it back together and functioning right... :)

Yeah, hopefully this week... busy at work too, we'll see.


minor details, however the damn thing was making some power!!!! holy mph batman!!!

Yeah, it felt STRONG on the big end :nod:

[black86glhs]

So were those the soft brass or the bronze ones you just had made?

[Aries_Turbo]

i think they were the brass... the trans hasnt been in the car that long.

it does look like one is wore more than the other. maybe the shift fork is bent causing misalignment.

you need a case that has "windows" in it so you can see it all assembled and take some feeler gauges and measure if its engaging evenly. then you can either get another fork or monkey around with the pads to compensate.

making a jig may be a better idea though. a tight fit rod that the fork rides on with a perpendicular surface attached to it. slide the fork over the rod and measure straightness.

Brian

[onerippinturbo2]

i was thinking the same thing, it looks like the one pad is worn more then the other,leading me to think a fork or something is bent or moving causing that wear.

[MiniMopar]

If the fork is bent, then flipping the pads over would have made it worse for sure. Uneven pressure on the slider is what makes it grind so much like that.

[Reaper1]

Yeah..I have to agree..bent or twisted shift fork! Maybe time for some adjustible shifter stops ot prevent this? I've been thinking about those for a LONG time, just never got around to drawing anything up....

[Reeves]

3rd felt good, although I granny shifted it, still felt good. Not sure what happened to 2nd... feels like crap, even driving around the pits... guess its gotta come apart again. :(

Made a BIG difference on my trans just dicking around with the shifter cable adjustments. 1/8" makes a go/no-go condition sometimes. But this is on a 555. Not sure how much difference it'll make on a 568.

[Juggy]

Not "double Clutchin" like ya should? ;)

Good Numbers JT! I'd be happy it went back together and functioned!

+1 awsome times for missing 2nd gear

and yeah the double clutchin is a great way to bang it into them tough gears.......altho I dont know how a trans would like a double clutch on the 1-2 shift, it used to work great when I had my 3L and toasted 3rd gear. she wouldnt go in for shiiiiit then i started double clutchin and it was like night and day

[BadAssPerformance]

So were those the soft brass or the bronze ones you just had made?

Brass that was in there from the start.. only made bronze for 3-4 ... I flipped the 1st side over to the 2nd side as it had no wear...


i think they were the brass... the trans hasnt been in the car that long.

it does look like one is wore more than the other. maybe the shift fork is bent causing misalignment.

you need a case that has "windows" in it so you can see it all assembled and take some feeler gauges and measure if its engaging evenly. then you can either get another fork or monkey around with the pads to compensate.

making a jig may be a better idea though. a tight fit rod that the fork rides on with a perpendicular surface attached to it. slide the fork over the rod and measure straightness.

Brian

I like the case with windows idea... wouldnt surprize me if it was bent, shoulda never touched the pads as it used to shift OK :(


i was thinking the same thing, it looks like the one pad is worn more then the other,leading me to think a fork or something is bent or moving causing that wear.


If the fork is bent, then flipping the pads over would have made it worse for sure. Uneven pressure on the slider is what makes it grind so much like that.

Hmmm... I'm trying to picture how the Zhhhiiing noise is made from a bent fork as it goes into gear.


Yeah..I have to agree..bent or twisted shift fork! Maybe time for some adjustible shifter stops ot prevent this? I've been thinking about those for a LONG time, just never got around to drawing anything up....

I have a MadDog STS with rod brake I could put back in there.


Made a BIG difference on my trans just dicking around with the shifter cable adjustments. 1/8" makes a go/no-go condition sometimes. But this is on a 555. Not sure how much difference it'll make on a 568.

Hmm... very interesting. I might have to do a few laps in the neighborhood and play with that!


+1 awsome times for missing 2nd gear

and yeah the double clutchin is a great way to bang it into them tough gears.......altho I dont know how a trans would like a double clutch on the 1-2 shift, it used to work great when I had my 3L and toasted 3rd gear. she wouldnt go in for shiiiiit then i started double clutchin and it was like night and day

Thanks! :)

yeah, no friggin time ont he 1-2 to do anything... I'm really tempted to make a crash box outta this thing

[MiniMopar]

Hmmm... I'm trying to picture how the Zhhhiiing noise is made from a bent fork as it goes into gear.

If the slider is pushed unevenly by the fork, the teeth on the stop ring will get past those bumps in the grooves of the slider. The stop ring teeth are supposed to get "stuck" on those bumps from the torque caused by the friction between the stop ring and the cone on the gear. That's what prevents the slider from going in all the way. Once the speed is matched (gears are synchronized), the torque is gone and the stop ring teeth can slide up those bumps and let the slider the rest of the way through to engage the dogs on the gear.

Well, the Zhhiing are the gear dogs being hammered on the slider. If the pressure is really uneven, maybe it sounds different?

[SebringLX]

Built auto, get a 10.2 on your 1st pass with it. :D

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL... Jaren said something similar at Grove... I think my response was something like "If I put an auto in it I'll need to take a pillow with so I can take a nap on the run" :D

[SebringLX]

Just leave the clutch pedal and shifter in, then you can pretend like you're shifting to keep yourself awake while you make fast consistent passes. :D

[BadAssPerformance]

Until 4th gear breaks? ;)

[SebringLX]

Until 4th gear breaks? ;)

:eek: Unpossible!

[contraption22]

LOL... Jaren said something similar at Grove... I think my response was something like "If I put an auto in it I'll need to take a pillow with so I can take a nap on the run" :D

You'll have plenty of time to nap with all the extra time you would otherwise be spending repairing and re-engineering your 5-speed. :)

[Pat]

You'll have plenty of time to nap with all the extra time you would otherwise be spending repairing and re-engineering your 5-speed. :)

Listen to the man JT....I'm thinking about it too.

[BadAssPerformance]

You'll have plenty of time to nap with all the extra time you would otherwise be spending repairing and re-engineering your 5-speed. :)

Repairing and re-engineering keeps my interest and keeps me awake... :nod: banging gears keeps me awake... :thumb:

Driving an automatic? *yawn* kinda boring... probably still fall asleep if I had some activity to do like if I put nitrous on it ;) ... maybe I could stay awake if I brought a puzzle to assemble? :D

[Shadow]

Repairing and re-engineering keeps my interest and keeps me awake... :nod: banging gears keeps me awake... :thumb:

Driving an automatic? *yawn* kinda boring... probably still fall asleep if I had some activity to do like if I put nitrous on it ;) ... maybe I could stay awake if I brought a puzzle to assemble? :D

:lol: couldn't agree more! Sides, who's gonna figure out how far these trannies can go if everyone "gives up" and goes auto! :nod:

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, I know you dig it :thumb:

BTW, not that I want to make a big investment, but does anyone make a straight cut dog box for SRT-4 or Supertouring Stratus or anything with a mopar 2.4L?

[bakes]

LOL, I know you dig it :thumb:

BTW, not that I want to make a big investment, but does anyone make a straight cut dog box for SRT-4 or Supertouring Stratus or anything with a mopar 2.4L?

Get a hold of some one doing srt ralley cars and see were they get there trans done! I now some one who builds ralley cars Pro . and the gear boxs for the subbies cost 35 k each say ouch!!!!

[contraption22]

LOL, I know you dig it :thumb:

BTW, not that I want to make a big investment, but does anyone make a straight cut dog box for SRT-4 or Supertouring Stratus or anything with a mopar 2.4L?

I think there is a vendor that sells dogbox internals for the T850 trans.

[Reeves]

You'll have plenty of time to nap with all the extra time you would otherwise be spending repairing and re-engineering your 5-speed. :)

Since when did the A-413 become bullet proof? Have they come that far along now?


Listen to the man JT....I'm thinking about it too.

NOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOO!!!!

And yes, I remember seeing a kit for dog box SRT-4 trans on SRTforums.

[contraption22]

Since when did the A-413 become bullet proof? Have they come that far along now?




They have come a long way. I never tried shooting at one tho.

[Reeves]

They have come a long way. I never tried shooting at one tho.

I can't even keep one in my van for more than 3 months or so.

[Shadow]

if memory serves, the DB kit was around 5000.00 and the installed version was around 8000.00.

[contraption22]

I can't even keep one in my van for more than 3 months or so.

I don't think it's because you are overpowering it.

[SebringLX]

LOL, I know you dig it :thumb:

BTW, not that I want to make a big investment, but does anyone make a straight cut dog box for SRT-4 or Supertouring Stratus or anything with a mopar 2.4L?

http://www.rage-tek.com/product.php?productid=17083

Not sure if that's what you're looking for. I don't think I'd buy from them though. Nemo used to seem like a good guy, but like many of the other SRT-4 vendors, bit off more than he could chew, couldn't keep up with things, screwed some people out of money, etc.

LOL @ thinking anyone ever made anything for the Stratus.

[Reeves]

I don't think it's because you are overpowering it.

Maybe under powering it...

[contraption22]

Maybe under powering it...

Naws.

[black86glhs]

I can't even keep one in my van for more than 3 months or so.
That's because you keep listening to Simon on repairs and mods.....LOL!

[turboshad]

http://www.rage-tek.com/product.php?productid=17083

Not sure if that's what you're looking for. I don't think I'd buy from them though. Nemo used to seem like a good guy, but like many of the other SRT-4 vendors, bit off more than he could chew, couldn't keep up with things, screwed some people out of money, etc.

LOL @ thinking anyone ever made anything for the Stratus.

Ya, I think Rage-Tek are the only ones. I don't think they've had enough out and beaten on to get a good feel for how well they worked. I would really like to get into a DB but it's a serious investment. I've thought a bit about designing one into the 568 frame but I never thought there would be enough serious interest with the high price.

[SebringLX]

Ya, I think Rage-Tek are the only ones. I don't think they've had enough out and beaten on to get a good feel for how well they worked. I would really like to get into a DB but it's a serious investment. I've thought a bit about designing one into the 568 frame but I never thought there would be enough serious interest with the high price.

I don't think there were really enough cars putting out enough power to warrant the expense. The few that were, went with the $8k built 31TH from DCR.

I think at the power levels JT is at (500-600whp?), most were getting by with an ACT stage whatever clutch, and some upgraded axles with the T850. Maybe a T850 would be a better choice over the 568 if you want to stay manual?

[MiniMopar]

If you could actually get *new* parts for these trannies, they might hold up better. Now all you can get is bearings, seals and the odd synchro if you are lucky.

[22shelby]

i give you credit JT for sticking to a bang box!!!! few hurdles to jump over but ull get it.... hey and if u cant find'em, grind'em!!!!

[dodgeshadowchik]

If he goes auto, i'll hit him.

I'll try to get shep to build him a trans before going auto. ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah cuz his are bullet proof :rolleyes: ;)

A DSM trans would probably be the last thing I would put in there ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

OK, opened it up tonight in plans to fix it and get it back together for Monster Mopar... found more than I expected and I dotn have a press at home so I can't get it fixed in time... so decided not to rush it and take the Shadow instead.

Why didnt 2nd gear work? maybe shift fork movement? Offset wear on pads... noticed the fork moves ont eh rod pivoting about the pin. OR mayeb 2nd gear is just too F/U to work well anymore? :confused2:

Before going back together I need to:

1 - put the damn race back on the intermediate shaft and use more green glue or TIG glue

2 - swap out 2nd and 3rd gears for better used spares (THANK YOU AGAIN DEAN! :)) I think there was a fresher stop ring in there too! :)

Pics...

gears 1 thru 4

pads 1 thru 4

bearing race unseating

Redline used to be red 2 passes ago :o

[BadAssPerformance]

1990 and 1991 A568 3-4 shift fork and pad differences. 1990 pads look like typical U-channel pad design, 1991 look like a "tie-fighter" shape. Hard to see but the 91 pad material reduction was directly due to added steel on the fork.

[BadAssPerformance]

RedLine MTL changed formulas recently was 70W80 now 75W85.

[turbovanman²]

Interesting on the fluid, they took out the rating for 10w30?

Nice carnage on the synchro teeth, :clap: and congrats on the times, with no 2nd gear, impressive, :nod:

[turbovanman²]

Since when did the A-413 become bullet proof? Have they come that far along now?



They are actually quite bulletproof these days. I've seriously only had a few issues, mostly from learning and one catastrophic failure when I split the case, lol.


I can't even keep one in my van for more than 3 months or so.

Maybe get a real tranny builder to build it, :p :fencing:


That's because you keep listening to Simon on repairs and mods.....LOL!

Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

[fleckster]

Maybe get a real tranny builder to build it, :p :fencing:



The guy who built it runs self-built A413s in a 10.20@140mph Turbo Mopar. I think he knows what he is doing with them! ;)

[turboshad]

JT, have you looked into alternative plastics for the pads? Alot has changed since the originally issued pieces. We are starting to substitute plastics for what would have been a metal bearing or wear part in the past with good success.

I was going though my book looking for a spec for a different grade from this manufacturer but this one seemed like it might be a good candidate for new, heavier duty shift pads.

http://www.quadrantepp.com/default.aspx?pageid=88

[turbovanman²]

The guy who built it runs self-built A413s in a 10.20@140mph Turbo Mopar. I think he knows what he is doing with them! ;)

Did you see the fencing smilie and if they are only lasting 3 months on a stockish setup, something is wrong, wouldn't you say? :p



JT, have you looked into alternative plastics for the pads? Alot has changed since the originally issued pieces. We are starting to substitute plastics for what would have been a metal bearing or wear part in the past with good success.

I was going though my book looking for a spec for a different grade from this manufacturer but this one seemed like it might be a good candidate for new, heavier duty shift pads.

http://www.quadrantepp.com/default.aspx?pageid=88


Damn, that would make a good candidate I think, not to mention it might work in the auto's for the thrust bearings! :nod:

[Rampage16V]

Repairing and re-engineering keeps my interest and keeps me awake... :nod: banging gears keeps me awake... :thumb:

Driving an automatic? *yawn* kinda boring... probably still fall asleep if I had some activity to do like if I put nitrous on it ;) ... maybe I could stay awake if I brought a puzzle to assemble? :D


LMF(MOPAR)AO!!!!!!

Auto will give you consistancy to bracket race
but sucks on the street

[Rampage16V]

RedLine MTL changed formulas recently was 70W80 now 75W85.

syncros were designed for use of 5w-30

[BadAssPerformance]

syncros were designed for use of 5w-30

True, but factory fill was ATF... MTL works well actually, no issues in the many years I've been running it.

Thanks again for the parts, I'm gonna put a couple to use! :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

LMF(MOPAR)AO!!!!!!

Auto will give you consistancy to bracket race
but sucks on the street

Nah, if I had to drive stick everyday on my commute, I'd commit suicide, lol.


True, but factory fill was ATF... MTL works well actually, no issues in the many years I've been running it.

Thanks again for the parts, I'm gonna put a couple to use! :thumb:

Since when? our TM's got 5w30, Neon's and maybe the SRT4 got ATF.

[Rampage16V]

atf was 525, 555, 520....523 568 543 were 5w30

[135sohc]

Little side question here: everyone recommends redline if using synthetic but what about the amsoil 5w30 "manual trans fluid" ? napa just started selling it recently and with my 523 getting up there on miles... I'd like to last until I've got a suitable replacement inline.

[Rampage16V]

i would

[contraption22]

Little side question here: everyone recommends redline if using synthetic but what about the amsoil 5w30 "manual trans fluid" ? napa just started selling it recently and with my 523 getting up there on miles... I'd like to last until I've got a suitable replacement inline.

Can o' worms. But, I have heard some say that synthetic motor oil might be too slippery for the syncros.

[turbovanman²]

Can o' worms. But, I have heard some say that synthetic motor oil might be too slippery for the syncros.

But he's talking Amsoil manual trans fluid, different than synthetic engine oil, ;)



atf was 525, 555, 520....523 568 543 were 5w30

Really? Not trying to start an argument but all my literature says 5w30 with ATF for auto's, of course, :p

[BadAssPerformance]

The Mopar 2.2L Performance Manual actually says the MTX uses ATF, 5W30 and 80-90 Gear oil :eek: in different places in the book.

[turbovanman²]

The Mopar 2.2L Performance Manual actually says the MTX uses ATF, 5W30 and 80-90 Gear oil :eek: in different places in the book.

DAMN!, lol, seems the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. Also remember though, the auto's used to use gear oil in the diff until they undivorced the diff section so it got lubed with the ATF.

[MiniMopar]

atf was 525, 555, 520....523 568 543 were 5w30

Actually, the '87 FSM and up spec 5W-30. '86 FSM and down spec ATF. So the A520 and A555 both got 5W-30. The word was they used ATF because of winter shifting performance, but I haven't seen any proof of that.

[BadAssPerformance]

Interesting... each 87 car I've owned came with damn ATF :(

BTW I think the junk in the oil is OBX grey matter, LOL

[dodgeshadowchik]

Yeah cuz his are bullet proof :rolleyes: ;)

A DSM trans would probably be the last thing I would put in there ;)

Nothing is "bulletproof". However, he does know and does build really good transmissions. There's been plently of them used on cars in the sub-10-sec range.

Besides, there's not much "dsm" left after it's been fixed. :clap:

Nice pics.. ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

JT, have you looked into alternative plastics for the pads? Alot has changed since the originally issued pieces. We are starting to substitute plastics for what would have been a metal bearing or wear part in the past with good success.

I was going though my book looking for a spec for a different grade from this manufacturer but this one seemed like it might be a good candidate for new, heavier duty shift pads.

http://www.quadrantepp.com/default.aspx?pageid=88

There are definitely cool plastics out there. I think in a race application the stiffness and hardness are key and you would have to get pretty exotic with plastics (like PEEK) to get the hardness I want.

Oh, and trying to get 1-2 pads made out of bronze for when I put it back together :)

[BadAssPerformance]

Nothing is "bulletproof". However, he does know and does build really good transmissions. There's been plently of them used on cars in the sub-10-sec range.

Besides, there's not much "dsm" left after it's been fixed. :clap:

Nice pics.. ;)

Yeah, too bad I cannot afford D$M parts, LOL ;)

[MiniMopar]

Why didnt 2nd gear work? maybe shift fork movement? Offset wear on pads... noticed the fork moves ont eh rod pivoting about the pin. OR mayeb 2nd gear is just too F/U to work well anymore? :confused2:

So when you turned the brass pads around they were pretty clean on the 2nd gear side. Now after two passes they are worn unevenly again? Sounds like a fork issue, though the excessive wear is probably from being hammered to death. The fork shouldn't be pivoting much, if at all. I'd have to look at mine to see. Is the hole that the rod passes through still round? Are the sleeves that guide the rods still in the case?


Pics...

Pics is a bit blurry, but the bronze pads look pretty good? Guess the real test is a missed shift.

[MiniMopar]

Interesting... each 87 car I've owned came with damn ATF :(

BTW I think the junk in the oil is OBX grey matter, LOL

Just to make sure my age hasn't caused a brain fart, from the 87 FSM, in the section titled "A-520 Improved Front-Wheel-Drive Manual Transaxle":

"To reduce wear, the manual transaxle now uses SAE 5W-30 engine oil as the lubricant."

I also remember the first time we pulled the axles out of my dad's 87 Daytona and saw engine oil come out. We though the ATF was burned or something.

[BadAssPerformance]

1st gear side before the last Surgery

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25119&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25119')

2nd gear side before the last Surgery

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25122&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25122')

During sugery I flipped the 1 and 2 sides over to put the "good" side on 2nd. Took thecar out and made 2 passes, both misisng 2nd gear.

1st gear side (formerly 2nd) after the 2 passes.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25466&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25466')

2nd gear side (formerly 1st and smooth) after the 2 passes.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25465&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25465')

So yeah, it dont take much, but these were the soft brass thast similar harness to the OEM plastic pads.

As for why its uneven? Hold the fork and rod try to move them relative to each other. They pivot on the roll pin.

[Shadow]

Can o' worms. But, I have heard some say that synthetic motor oil might be too slippery for the syncros.

Think about what you just posted and tell me if you think it makes any sense.

As soon as I heard it and thought about it, I dissregarded it as I've never found it to be a problem. I've also been running Mobil 1 10w30 in the Charger for over 5 years with Zero failures. ;)

[Shadow]

The Mopar 2.2L Performance Manual actually says the MTX uses ATF, 5W30 and 80-90 Gear oil :eek: in different places in the book.

I'd have to look back to be sure, but I'd swear I read 5w30 for a street driver, 10w30 for a wknd warrior and 20w50 for a drag car.

[contraption22]

Think about what you just posted and tell me if you think it makes any sense.


I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know if it is true in this instance, but I can certainly see how it's possible. There needs to be a certain amount of friction for the synchros to do their job.

Edit: RedLine claims this in their sales literature.

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=7

[Reeves]

the stiffness and hardness are key and you would have to get pretty exotic with plastics (like PEEK) to get the hardness I want. :)


.....That's what JT said!



As for why its uneven? Hold the fork and rod try to move them relative to each other. They pivot on the roll pin.

I think I know what you are saying here.....but shouldn't the rod and fork be a really really close fit, and the roll pin there just to keep them together?

[black86glhs]

.....That's what JT said!




I think I know what you are saying here.....but shouldn't the rod and fork be a really really close fit, and the roll pin there just to keep them together?

Sounds like the shifter fork has gotten hogged out. Time to repair it with some kind of sleeve or find another one. The thing is rock back and forth as your shifting gears, that is why the pads have worn funny, IMO.

[Shadow]

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know if it is true in this instance, but I can certainly see how it's possible. There needs to be a certain amount of friction for the synchros to do their job.

Edit: RedLine claims this in their sales literature.

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=7

I hear what your saying, but I can't get over thinking that two objects trying to mesh with each other can only benifit from better lubrication. Anything that would put a "drag" on them would also cause them to drag wile trying to engage one another.....no?

[contraption22]

I hear what your saying, but I can't get over thinking that two objects trying to mesh with each other can only benifit from better lubrication. Anything that would put a "drag" on them would also cause them to drag wile trying to engage one another.....no?

If I am correct, the friction of the synchros helps the dogs engage easier because it gets the dog teeth moving at the same speed, or close to it before they are engaged. So if there is not enough friction, the synchros will not functon properly.

[Reeves]

If I am correct, the friction of the synchros helps the dogs engage easier because it gets the dog teeth moving at the same speed, or close to it before they are engaged. So if there is not enough friction, the synchros will not functon properly.

The friction of the stop ring on the taper of the gear is what you are talking about. And yes, you are correct.

[Shadow]

If I am correct, the friction of the synchros helps the dogs engage easier because it gets the dog teeth moving at the same speed, or close to it before they are engaged. So if there is not enough friction, the synchros will not functon properly.


The friction of the stop ring on the taper of the gear is what you are talking about. And yes, you are correct.

OK, I can see that, but shouldn't the tapper take care of that?

I guess like everything else, it's give and take. You put in a higher friction oil to get the synchros to work better and what does that do to wear and tear on the rest of the parts?

[onerippinturbo2]

i too think you should source another shift shaft and fork, if the fork is wobbling on the shaft, that is most likely the cause for the uneven wear and can't be helping the missed shifts either. now i know it is going to be tough locating these, did you try rockland standrad gear in new york? i would give them a call, they bailed me out a few years ago with a 555 that i did for a friend, the forks were NLA then too. they had everything i needed at the time. wouldnt hurt to try.

[Reaper1]

Screw it...time to go to either a Quaife or Xtrac tranny! LOL!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Sounds like the shifter fork has gotten hogged out. Time to repair it with some kind of sleeve or find another one. The thing is rock back and forth as your shifting gears, that is why the pads have worn funny, IMO.

Yeah.. might need to be bushed.

[BadAssPerformance]

OK, swapped a fresher 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear onto the mainshaft tonight... also a new looking stop ring for 2nd

THANKS AGAIN Dean for the spare parts :thumb:

[22shelby]

ok sooooooooooo RSD for a shake down?????

[BadAssPerformance]

It's not together yet...

good luck man, win some cheeseburgers!

[BadAssPerformance]

Decided to use a little "TIG glue" to keep the race on the shaft.... new 1-2 pads... will start putting it all back in tomorrow after work.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25775&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25775')

[turboshad]

New pads as in bronze or new brass you had left over?

EDIT: Nevermind......I read the other thread.

[BadAssPerformance]

No problem... if you look close they are a different color too

[22shelby]

soooo whens the next rip???? im ready!

[BadAssPerformance]

Looking at next Thursday "Slick Night" ... you down?

[22shelby]

YES!!!!!! ill shoot up there right after work...

[BadAssPerformance]

It's a plan, maybe Tommy can go too!

[Aries_Turbo]

jt did you do anything about potential wobble of the shift fork or check perpendicularness to the slider ring or are you just trying different materials at this point?

Brian

[black86glhs]

Decided to use a little "TIG glue" to keep the race on the shaft.... new 1-2 pads... will start putting it all back in tomorrow after work.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25775&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25775')So......pretty. ....can't......look......away. :wow1:

[BadAssPerformance]

jt did you do anything about potential wobble of the shift fork or check perpendicularness to the slider ring or are you just trying different materials at this point?

Brian

I'd like to bush the fork but 1-nto sure if thinner is a good thing and 2 dont have time... Was thinking about a set screw to at least prop it to one side or the other, but... decided I'll just put it back in for an A-B of the brass ones. It had shifted 2nd well all year until that last trip out, and the 2nd gear that came out should have never gone back in, LOL

[Aries_Turbo]

well dont trash the new 2nd gear if its not shifting well. :)

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL... sure as hell try not too. i dont wanna be the "1st in the 10s while missing 2nd gear" :o

[Reeves]

LOL... sure as hell try not too. i dont wanna be the "1st in the 10s while missing 2nd gear" :o

Too late for that one!!! I've already got it! :number1:

[BadAssPerformance]

too late for that one!!! I've already got it! :number1:

lol!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Went to Grove Slick night for a coupel shake down runs...

Run #1 - Right off the trailer, spun hard out of the hole, short shifted 2nd from bog to tire spin, drifting in, hit third, brought it back, stuck 4th... all granny style, but they went in! :)

R/T: 1.659
60': 1.957
330': 5.068
1/8ET: 7.441
1/8mph: 107.18 <== New Best!?
1000'ET: 9.432
1/4ET: 11.105 <== Best for 2010
1/4mph: 135.76 <== New Best!?

Run #2 - spun in 1st thru 3rd, loaded up so 4th broke up... got all teh gears, so not bad overall.... need more traction

R/T: .416
60': 1.882
330': 5.114
1/8ET: 7.727
1/8mph: 98.67
1000'ET: 9.872
1/4ET: 11.626
1/4mph: 122.03

Run #3 - lower tire pressure... spun in 1st, tire shake in 2nd, missed 3rd :(

R/T: .492
60': 1.880
330': 5.099
1/8ET: 7.838
1/8mph: 95.80
1000'ET: 9.960
1/4ET: 11.704
1/4mph: 133.15

Overall not a bad trip out... need to figure out traction and launch control

[ohiorob]

glad to see you made it back out to the track. nice first run and mph :thumb:

talk to James and Jon about launch control it should help you out.

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks Rob!

Yeah, I did talk to Jon a bit at last yers Nats on his clutch switch setup... just havn't done it yet :o

[SebringLX]

I think you have the MPH for a 9.9...

[22shelby]

yeah traction was an issue fersher!!! i meen c'mon when the VFN race car fast and furiously does a wheel stand then smokes the tires, u know there something wrong!!!.....id like to see that vid.....feel free to post her up....

[dodgeshadowchik]

You are MPH'ing the crap out of that car! :)

Glad to "see" it back in action!

[blk86trbo]

Dang that's awesome JT, major props dude :clap:

[Reaper1]

Congrats!

[turboshad]

Smoking mph JT. :thumb: This isn't the clutch switch I used but it would work the same. I can't seem to find the limit switch and chain style like I have online. If I remember I will snap a pic tonight for your.


http://www.uspdelectronicstore.com/images/_products/pcimktg/ROS2504206.jpg


http://shop.brandondist.com/product.sc;jsessionid=40FEF70AE9C23C5360C1CF6067D7 7BD1.qscstrfrnt05?productId=200&categoryId=8

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks everyone... gotta figure out how to use all that mph, LOL!

Yeah DJ that might work... did your Shadow have a factory clutch switch? I might try to rob the Neon for parts too. LOL

[BadAssPerformance]

Turbodave and I raided the pick-n-pull Saturday and part of the mission was to claim as many different clutch switches as possible. Here are most of them, from left to right:

1G Neon - Saturn - Celica - Nissan - Mazda

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26033&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26033')

The first three are floor mounted, all normally open switches. The other two are top mount and one is n/o the other n/c.

I decided to use the GM sensor as it by far has the largest target width and throw.

I have it wired into the DIS-2 Plus box and in series with a thumb button so it is not always active. Tried it out in the driveway tonight in neutral and it seems to work OK... gotta think a bit about how forgiving the neighbors would be it I let it go down the block :D

[Shadow]

Turbodave and I raided the pick-n-pull Saturday and part of the mission was to claim as many different clutch switches as possible. Here are most of them, from left to right:

1G Neon - Saturn - Celica - Nissan - Mazda

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26033&thumb=1 ('http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26033')

The first three are floor mounted, all normally open switches. The other two are top mount and one is n/o the other n/c.

I decided to use the GM sensor as it by far has the largest target width and throw.

I have it wired into the DIS-2 Plus box and in series with a thumb button so it is not always active. Tried it out in the driveway tonight in neutral and it seems to work OK... gotta think a bit about how forgiving the neighbors would be it I let it go down the block :D

I just went through this with the Charger, fortunatly I had a parts car in the back with factory cruise, so I used that switch. The unfortunate part was Not getting it working in time to use it at the track!

Should make a big difference, more control on the launch, more consistant and I'm thinking Easier to dial in the slicks for traction! :thumb:

[SebringLX]

Wait what are you wiring the clutch switch into the DIS2+ for? 2-step?

[contraption22]

Nice runs, JT!

[turboshad]

Looks good JT. A bit of a different theory than myself but it should work great. I made my switch so it comes on just as the clutch is engaging. The main reason being I can also use it for flat shifting so I wanted it to come on as soon as possible. But I think that should work just fine for LC.

[Shadow]

Here's a dumb Q. Don't the Daytonas come with a factory cruise cut-out switch mounted to the top of the clutch peddle?

[blk86trbo]

Some may have but I'm pretty sure in 87 none of the TII cars were available with cruise

[BadAssPerformance]

Should make a big difference, more control on the launch, more consistant and I'm thinking Easier to dial in the slicks for traction! :thumb:

I sure hope so!


Wait what are you wiring the clutch switch into the DIS2+ for? 2-step?

Exactly!


Nice runs, JT!

Thanks!


Looks good JT. A bit of a different theory than myself but it should work great. I made my switch so it comes on just as the clutch is engaging. The main reason being I can also use it for flat shifting so I wanted it to come on as soon as possible. But I think that should work just fine for LC.

Hmmm.... so you have it drop down to launch RPM when you shift?


Here's a dumb Q. Don't the Daytonas come with a factory cruise cut-out switch mounted to the top of the clutch peddle?


Some may have but I'm pretty sure in 87 none of the TII cars were available with cruise

Yep, no cruise on 87 T-II...

[Shadow]

Yep, no cruise on 87 T-II...

What! No way, every TII Shelby Daytona I've owned has had cruise, I'm sure of it! Although, they may have all been 88 and up?

Switch from an 88 won't work?

[BadAssPerformance]

What! No way, every TII Shelby Daytona I've owned has had cruise, I'm sure of it! Although, they may have all been 88 and up?

Switch from an 88 won't work?

Maybe 89? It might work, but it was easier for me to find something more plentiful in the yards. None of the older TMs these days

[turboshad]

Hmmm.... so you have it drop down to launch RPM when you shift?



Here is the MS launch control.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/LaunchControl.jpg

You pick the RPM at which it start retarding when activated. Then you pick the timing value you want it to retard to. The lower the value the more boost you can make. When I had it at 6.5 degrees I was getting up to 11psi at the line. Next is the throttle position that it becomes enabled above when the input is grounded to activate followed by the hard RPM limit. Below that you choose wether you want a fuel cut, spark cut or both. With a spark cut you can choose how many events out of how many you want to cut.

Further down you have the flat shift arming point. So if the input is grounded above this RPM it will act as a flat shift. From there you have seperate settings like the LC for retard above RPM, retard to degrees, and hard RPM limit. It will use the same x from y events that the LC uses as well as the limiter method.

All in all it's pretty good for an inexpensive ECU.

[Shadow]

Here is the MS launch control.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/LaunchControl.jpg

You pick the RPM at which it start retarding when activated. Then you pick the timing value you want it to retard to. The lower the value the more boost you can make. When I had it at 6.5 degrees I was getting up to 11psi at the line. Next is the throttle position that it becomes enabled above when the input is grounded to activate followed by the hard RPM limit. Below that you choose wether you want a fuel cut, spark cut or both. With a spark cut you can choose how many events out of how many you want to cut.

Further down you have the flat shift arming point. So if the input is grounded above this RPM it will act as a flat shift. From there you have seperate settings like the LC for retard above RPM, retard to degrees, and hard RPM limit. It will use the same x from y events that the LC uses as well as the limiter method.

All in all it's pretty good for an inexpensive ECU.

This is deff the kind of stuff we need to start wrapping our heads around if we want to stay manuel and represent!

The rest of the FWD world has been out-technologying us and I say Enoughs Enough!

It's time to take a stand and instal SH!T like this into our dino-cars and pick up 2-3tenths or more and have even less wear on our trannys!

Who's ,with me? :cool:

[Rampage16V]

Yeap I was using it on my car to 0 degrees timing at 3500 then hard limit at 4000 but never reached it the boost was up there on the launch

[fleckster]

What! No way, every TII Shelby Daytona I've owned has had cruise, I'm sure of it! Although, they may have all been 88 and up?

Switch from an 88 won't work?

Yep, definitely no cruise control on the '87 Shelby Z. (or any Turbo II car that year). The story was that the intercooler hoses were run through were the cruise control servo was mounted and they didn't have he new mounting bracket that moved it out of the way ready in time (probably a design oversight as this was before CATIA so, it was left out of those cars. It is in the logic module but no servo there to drive it. Probably not too difficult to retro-fit with the later servo bracket and a switch of the steering column to add the stalk.

[blk86trbo]

It is in the logic module but no servo there to drive it. Probably not too difficult to retro-fit with the later servo bracket and a switch of the steering column to add the stalk.

Dang John you read my mind, thanks for posting the info on the LM...although I don't believe the wiring for it is in the harness?

Also JT, thanks to you and all the other "pioneers" that are out there doing the modding/repairing/sacrificing! Your trial and error sessions will ultimately save additional parts and cars from the scrapyard :thumb:

[SebringLX]

Well I see how you can do that stuff with an MS... you can't do all that with a DIS2+, which it sounds like JT is using.

The 2-step function on the DIS2 is controlled by 2 wires. Blue for rev limit, Pink for step retard. It's a simple on/off only. When the blue wire is grounded, rev limit is active. When the pink wire is grounded, timing is retarded.

I did not know you wanted to retard timing in addition to limiting revs when setting up a 2-step, that's good info, 'cause when I get mine back from MSD, I'll be setting it up.

If you connect the blue and pink wires to the clutch switch, and set the dials to say 4000rpm and 10* retard, then every time you push the clutch, it's going to activate. I see that going very badly when you try to shift. Or is the clutch switch not going behind the clutch?

[Aries_Turbo]

Yep, definitely no cruise control on the '87 Shelby Z. (or any Turbo II car that year). The story was that the intercooler hoses were run through were the cruise control servo was mounted and they didn't have he new mounting bracket that moved it out of the way ready in time (probably a design oversight as this was before CATIA so, it was left out of those cars. It is in the logic module but no servo there to drive it. Probably not too difficult to retro-fit with the later servo bracket and a switch of the steering column to add the stalk.

good thing i kept with a 87 t1 harness in my daytona and converted it to T2. I have an 89 cruise actuator in there hanging out near the strut tower.

Rob (shadow) we have launch limiter stuff in the cals now and timing retard at WOT when the boost is lower than the setpoint to help with spool on the line. i leave the line with 10psi with a manual trans car. its not quite as slick as the MS setup but it works well.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Here is the MS launch control.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/LaunchControl.jpg

You pick the RPM at which it start retarding when activated. Then you pick the timing value you want it to retard to. The lower the value the more boost you can make. When I had it at 6.5 degrees I was getting up to 11psi at the line. Next is the throttle position that it becomes enabled above when the input is grounded to activate followed by the hard RPM limit. Below that you choose wether you want a fuel cut, spark cut or both. With a spark cut you can choose how many events out of how many you want to cut.

Further down you have the flat shift arming point. So if the input is grounded above this RPM it will act as a flat shift. From there you have seperate settings like the LC for retard above RPM, retard to degrees, and hard RPM limit. It will use the same x from y events that the LC uses as well as the limiter method.

All in all it's pretty good for an inexpensive ECU.

Thats pretty fancy stuff there!


Dang John you read my mind, thanks for posting the info on the LM...although I don't believe the wiring for it is in the harness?

Also JT, thanks to you and all the other "pioneers" that are out there doing the modding/repairing/sacrificing! Your trial and error sessions will ultimately save additional parts and cars from the scrapyard :thumb:

Interesting indeed, I didnt know why it didnt have it, just that it didnt, LOL!

Thanks Paul, in my mind, thats exactly what the Shelby Dodge Club and Turbo Mopar are all about :clap:


Well I see how you can do that stuff with an MS... you can't do all that with a DIS2+, which it sounds like JT is using.

The 2-step function on the DIS2 is controlled by 2 wires. Blue for rev limit, Pink for step retard. It's a simple on/off only. When the blue wire is grounded, rev limit is active. When the pink wire is grounded, timing is retarded.

I did not know you wanted to retard timing in addition to limiting revs when setting up a 2-step, that's good info, 'cause when I get mine back from MSD, I'll be setting it up.

If you connect the blue and pink wires to the clutch switch, and set the dials to say 4000rpm and 10* retard, then every time you push the clutch, it's going to activate. I see that going very badly when you try to shift. Or is the clutch switch not going behind the clutch?

Good thinking Josh, I totally forgot about the pink wire! I have the clutch switch and a thumb button wired in series so after launch I drop the thumb button and its all inactive. I was going to tune the 2-step area of the fuel and spark maps accordingly but this may be a better way.

[SebringLX]

Good thinking Josh, I totally forgot about the pink wire! I have the clutch switch and a thumb button wired in series so after launch I drop the thumb button and its all inactive. I was going to tune the 2-step area of the fuel and spark maps accordingly but this may be a better way.
Sounds like a good idea. Why retard the timing though? Wouldn't that lower the amount of boost you get on the line? Or is that what you're after to try and reduce wheel spin?

[Shadow]

good thing i kept with a 87 t1 harness in my daytona and converted it to T2. I have an 89 cruise actuator in there hanging out near the strut tower.

Rob (shadow) we have launch limiter stuff in the cals now and timing retard at WOT when the boost is lower than the setpoint to help with spool on the line. i leave the line with 10psi with a manual trans car. its not quite as slick as the MS setup but it works well.

Brian

I was actually hoping to take advantage of that this year, but I can't seem to get one of those cals to idle properly for a 2.2. They seem to run good, but idle pig rich. I'm going to see what I can do over winter....

[turboshad]

Sounds like a good idea. Why retard the timing though? Wouldn't that lower the amount of boost you get on the line? Or is that what you're after to try and reduce wheel spin?

Retarding the timing will raise your exhaust temps so there is more thermal energy to spool the turbo.

[BadAssPerformance]

I just read the DIS-2 Plus manual and the pink wire is on or off on the switch... so if I push the clutch in at idle then rev it, the timing will be retarded the whole way... Hmm.. maybe I'd just do it in the timing table

[SebringLX]

I just read the DIS-2 Plus manual and the pink wire is on or off on the switch... so if I push the clutch in at idle then rev it, the timing will be retarded the whole way... Hmm.. maybe I'd just do it in the timing table

As soon as you release the clutch switch, the timing would go back to normal.

[BadAssPerformance]

Right, but revving it up (from idle to the 2-step RPM) with less timing might not be the hot ticket either

[SebringLX]

Right, but revving it up (from idle to the 2-step RPM) with less timing might not be the hot ticket either

:confused2: From what turboshad just said, it would be the hot ticket? Too hot?

If the spark map for the tune in your ECU works similar to the newer cars... If you try to adjust timing near the 2-step rev limit in your tune, and your RPMs drop below that limit when you shift, you'll be losing power on every shift.

How low do your RPMs drop after a shift? I guess if you keep your 2-step rev limit lower than that, you'd be fine doing it that way.

[BadAssPerformance]

DJ wa stalking about while on the 2-step... I'm talking about before teh 2-step engages... When I swapped turbos I had to raise the timing to get it to spool quickly when free revving it, so my fear would be it would not.

[Aries_Turbo]

keep playing with different timing/rev limiter combos. you may have had to add timing before, and had it sluggish when you took some out, but if you take a ton out and start cutting out some spark, youll have alot of banging in the header/turbine.

i wouldnt take timing out of the regular map.

dont you have a pushbutton switch inline with the clutch switch? hammer the gas and when you get near the two step rpm, then hit the pushbutton switch.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah I do and thought about that... all while starting the data log, maybe I can put the camera in the car too to give me a dozen things to do while staging LOL! ;) I think I'll try it w/o retard at first and see how it works, can easily add that wire at the track if needed.

[Shadow]

DJ wa stalking about while on the 2-step....

2-step stalkers can be very dangerous, be carefull! BTW who's DJ wa? :p:lol:

[Shadow]

I think I'll try it w/o retard at first and see how it works, can easily add that wire at the track if needed.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Try it first, who knows, you may hold 3, 5, 8lbs? Find that out first and then play with it from there. At least that's what I was planning on doing.

[blk86trbo]

2-step stalkers can be very dangerous, be carefull! BTW who's DJ wa? :p:lol:

OMG that's funny :lol::lol::lol:

BTW here's DJ Wa http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1149034722055179623ZikeVA

[22shelby]

ok just read thru this, just to be clear the blue and pink need 12V to be active not ground, im not sure how thw clutch switch is but if its a grounded switch nothing is going to happen, now if it happens to connect 12V then tap off of that w/ a push button.....

[glhs0426]

When the two step was installed on Andy's car we just used the RPM function and this gave incredibly predicatable boost on the launch. Full launch boost was achieved on the order of two seconds.

We used a hand held button wired in series with the clutch switch to keep the two step from activacting while shifting much like you are doing JT.

[BadAssPerformance]

OMG that's funny :lol::lol::lol:

BTW here's DJ Wa http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1149034722055179623ZikeVA

LOL.. ya i kant tyep or speel! :o


ok just read thru this, just to be clear the blue and pink need 12V to be active not ground, im not sure how thw clutch switch is but if its a grounded switch nothing is going to happen, now if it happens to connect 12V then tap off of that w/ a push button.....

Yeah, I had the button wired up to 12V+ last year, just added the clutch switch in line


When the two step was installed on Andy's car we just used the RPM function and this gave incredibly predicatable boost on the launch. Full launch boost was achieved on the order of two seconds.

We used a hand held button wired in series with the clutch switch to keep the two step from activacting while shifting much like you are doing JT.

Sweet, sounds very similar, cant wait to try it! :thumb:

[cordes]

Dang John you read my mind, thanks for posting the info on the LM...although I don't believe the wiring for it is in the harness?

Also JT, thanks to you and all the other "pioneers" that are out there doing the modding/repairing/sacrificing! Your trial and error sessions will ultimately save additional parts and cars from the scrapyard :thumb:

Some of the wiring will be there. My black 86' GLHT has the ==> shaped connector under the dash for dealer installed cruise. It didn't' have the proper brake switch though. My 89' Daytona has the plug for cruise under there too, but it is a different shaped connector than the earlier ones. It does have the proper brake switch. I have not checked the SMEC to see if it is pinned for cruise or not. I know the omni LM wasn't pinned for 87' cruise obviously.

[SebringLX]

ok just read thru this, just to be clear the blue and pink need 12V to be active not ground, im not sure how thw clutch switch is but if its a grounded switch nothing is going to happen, now if it happens to connect 12V then tap off of that w/ a push button.....

Yeah you're right, I went back and looked at my manual. I haven't touched it since before I finished the car. Originally I had a Greddy E-Manage (that I still haven't gotten around to removing), which is a glorified MAP clamp. I didn't want to have too much timing because of the difference in injector size and attempting to tune with this poor method, so I had hooked the pink wire up to the positive battery terminal, and retarded the timing a few degrees with the DIS2+.

I'm also forgetting that you manual guys are trying to get boost with what would be closer to me having my car in neutral. I don't think I'll need to retard timing when I get mine back and hooked up. ;)

[Shadow]

LOL.. ya i kant tyep or speel! :o

Wasn't making fun of your spelling, for a matter of fact, I think the spelling was perfect.

I just couldn't believe how 1 letter moved forward with the space bar could change the Entire sentance like that!

It was just Way too hilarious to let go! Sorry bro! :peace:

[Juggy]

i swear my old 87 shelby Z had cruise control....maybe its a canadian thing

[turbovanman²]

Some of the wiring will be there. My black 86' GLHT has the ==> shaped connector under the dash for dealer installed cruise. It didn't' have the proper brake switch though. My 89' Daytona has the plug for cruise under there too, but it is a different shaped connector than the earlier ones. It does have the proper brake switch. I have not checked the SMEC to see if it is pinned for cruise or not. I know the omni LM wasn't pinned for 87' cruise obviously.

Yeah, SMEC's are pinned, you either need to add the wire, or turn it on, or both.