BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Is it a must that you have an E brake due to rules?

No, that was on the list and kind of independant of Drag Week. I have had line locks on it for burnouts for years, but with broken axle it rolls in gear, it would make loading it on the trailer, etc easier


Is that fuel a requirement for the Hot Rod Drag Tour?

None that i know of. I was thinking 93 between events then carry a couple jugs of 110 for the track

[85glht]

No, but its a hell of a easier! I am doing the same...building/setting up for pump gas.


You can run whatever fuel you want. There are a few guys that run pump gas on the street and e85 at the track. They have two seperate tanks.

I will probably be running alcohol injection to boost octane at the track.


None that i know of. I was thinking 93 between events then carry a couple jugs of 110 for the track


Cool!! Good luck! It sounds like a lot of fun!

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks, hope so!

[Reeves]

No, but its a hell of a easier! I am doing the same...building/setting up for pump gas.

I'm considering trying the same. I already run 93 on the street and just keep my foot out of it, but it would be nice not to have to carry race fuel anymore. I wonder if Torco is still around?

[BadAssPerformance]

Torco?

http://torcoracefuel.net/index.html

[csxtra]

I think Reeves means this specifically:

http://torcoracefuel.net/pro-accelerator.html :nod:

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks for the translation :thumb:

[Reeves]

Yeah, that's what I meant! We used that stuff before and it really does work as a knock retardant. Wouldn't mind carrying a few cans of it instead of race fuel.

[BadAssPerformance]

Would be good to find out what each track has for fuel.. if each track had gas i could top off the cell and bring enough jugs to get to the next track LOL

[Pat]

I'd be hesitant to carry fuel jugs in the car. Are you going to pull a small trailer?

[Aries_Turbo]

Yeah, that's what I meant! We used that stuff before and it really does work as a knock retardant. Wouldn't mind carrying a few cans of it instead of race fuel.

I remember Larry J (4sfed4) testing that stuff on his R/T.... 87.... yes 87 octane in the tank, bottle of torco on top and 25psi.... no knock.

Brian

[168glhs1986]

I'd be hesitant to carry fuel jugs in the car. Are you going to pull a small trailer?

Vintage Chrysler roof rack would work

[c2xejk]

I have seen the roof rack thing done. People have also used the basket that fits in a tow hitch receiver.

[BadAssPerformance]

Guess my welds were OK :)

44637

[Directconnection]

I remember Larry J (4sfed4) testing that stuff on his R/T.... 87.... yes 87 octane in the tank, bottle of torco on top and 25psi.... no knock.

Brian

Wallace used to use that as well. I wondered why it worked so well, yet never caught on?

[forcedfedmopar]

The rocket brand race fuel guys were at most the tracks when i went, also most of the tracks sold race gas. Granted this year may be different but there were alot of cars that required it and it was availible

[Pat]

Guess my welds were OK :)

44637

Nice!

Had you been getting hassled for exceeding 135 mph w/o a cert?

[blk86trbo]

Congrats on your certification JT, that's a nifty decal!

[BadAssPerformance]

Nice!

Had you been getting hassled for exceeding 135 mph w/o a cert?

Thanks guys. No harassment yet for going over 135mph but they only cert around here in the spring so figured might as well get it done

[shmedley]

It's greasy fast now. :eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

Lol...

[turbo2point2]

Guess my welds were OK :)

44637

Nice! Now get on that license!

[BadAssPerformance]

Nice! Now get on that license!

Thanks. LOL, it might be a while for that... technically I need to get the window net installed and do a couple other things to be legit.

[turboshad]

Looking good JT. Hopefully that's one sticker that actually will make you go faster. :nod:

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, thanks, lets hope so. BTW, found out they changed the rule last year for the "D" bars (the ones to the trans tunnel) I need to update that on mine. How did you to yours?

[turboshad]

I think the rules are still the same from when I built mine. I race at an IHRA track but the rules in regards to the cage have been the same unless something has changed with NHRA in the past year that wasn't reflected in IHRA. The only part I don't get in the IHRA rules is that "D" must be connected to the subframe. 1 1/4" .058 CM

http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=136499
(http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=136499)page 94

Here is a picture of mine.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93 Shadow/Roll Cage/DSC04862.jpg

[Rampage16V]

Did they ask for the sfi numbers on all your parts?

[turboshad]

Not sure if you're talking to me or JT but when they did my cert all they looked at was the cage. Nothing else. I guess the rest is up to the track techs.

[BadAssPerformance]

Did they ask for the sfi numbers on all your parts?


Not sure if you're talking to me or JT but when they did my cert all they looked at was the cage. Nothing else. I guess the rest is up to the track techs.

DJ's right, the chassis cert looks at chassis only... he did not even get close to my out of date belts, LOL! Yes, everything else is up to the tracks.


I think the rules are still the same from when I built mine. I race at an IHRA track but the rules in regards to the cage have been the same unless something has changed with NHRA in the past year that wasn't reflected in IHRA. The only part I don't get in the IHRA rules is that "D" must be connected to the subframe. 1 1/4" .058 CM

http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=136499
(http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=136499)page 94

Here is a picture of mine.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93 Shadow/Roll Cage/DSC04862.jpg

Since "a FWD car does not have a rigid trans tunnel or frame" (quote of NHRA tech), they (NHRA) are now recommending a cross bar between the legs of the main hoop that the "D" bars go to instead of the floor. I'll get the rule posted soon...

[turboshad]

Hmm, first I've heard of that. Are they recommending or requiring? They kind of "recommend" sill bars two but they aren't required.

[BadAssPerformance]

Not a suggestion, it's the rule. Now rules are open to interpretation of course, but its pretty clear what its asking for. I wonder what happened to re-write the rule

From 2013 Rule Book:

""D" Bar installation for full bodied cars: For front-wheel-drive cars, with complete OEM floor (from firewall to rear of the trunk) and rocker and sill boxes, the 1 1/4-inch x .058-inch CM (.118-inch MS) "D" bars (when required; i.e., when the main hoop is not welded to the frame) may be welded to a 1 5/8-inch x .083-inch CM (.118-inch MS) crossmember welded to the rocker/sill box via conventional 6-inch x 6-inch x 1/8-inch-thick plates."

[Ondonti]

How exactly would you put a plate and a crossbar in that location and make that work with DJ's setup..........He seems to be on the rear floor, above the rocker panels.
And how would you put a 6x6" plate on that location...I could see 3x6 plates on the rocker panels, crossmember against the floor...cutting through the trans tunnel........

Those instructions suck. Your tech's suggestion makes sense but does not coincide with that posted rule. Is the goal to keep the cage from pinching together? What exactly is a rigid trans tunnel? How does that differ from a unibody RWD (except the obvious "fwd doesnt have an actual trans tunnel")? We have what looks like one. What makes a RWD one special?

[BadAssPerformance]

Think of it like a shallow upside down "U" that spans between main hoop plates and then the "D" bars go to that

[Reaper1]

So basically you are building a subframe inside the car...on your way to a full tube chassis!

[turbovanman²]

That Torco stuff is neat but isn't cheap, if your tank holds 15 gallons, you will need 4 quarts to make 107 octane, so that's your tank of fuel plus $80.

[BadAssPerformance]

So basically you are building a subframe inside the car...on your way to a full tube chassis!

Kind of a subframe, more just lateral support for side impact... I think


That Torco stuff is neat but isn't cheap, if your tank holds 15 gallons, you will need 4 quarts to make 107 octane, so that's your tank of fuel plus $80.

Ouch

[turbovanman²]

Ouch

Too bad E85 wasn't available everywhere, probably a much better alternative.

[c2xejk]

Too bad E85 wasn't available everywhere, probably a much better alternative.

Several of the guys that run e85 at the track have a separate tank and tune so they can run pump fuel on the road. They usually carry all the e85 they will need for the week so they know the fuel will be consistent all week. The other direction would be to see what the e85 availability is in each city (there are websites that map the e85 stations) and carry any extra you need for the drive.

My final thought on the subject is to do alcohol injection at higher boost...

[turbovanman²]

Several of the guys that run e85 at the track have a separate tank and tune so they can run pump fuel on the road. They usually carry all the e85 they will need for the week so they know the fuel will be consistent all week. The other direction would be to see what the e85 availability is in each city (there are websites that map the e85 stations) and carry any extra you need for the drive.

My final thought on the subject is to do alcohol injection at higher boost...

True enough but if your area doesn't have it, hard to tune for it, :eyebrows:

My local speed shop swears by it, builds big HP Rotary's, Supra's etc.

[BadAssPerformance]

Not really a fan of E85... not to mention pump E85 is pretty inconsistent.

If I'm going to pack gas, it will be 110

[Pat]

Not really a fan of E85... not to mention pump E85 is pretty inconsistent.

If I'm going to pack gas, it will be 110

You mean E-eightysomething is inconsistent? :-)

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL, not at all if 70-90 is OK?

[contraption22]

How about meth/water injection?

[c2xejk]

Not really a fan of E85... not to mention pump E85 is pretty inconsistent.

If I'm going to pack gas, it will be 110

What I think was alcohol content inconsistency (across several states) of pump gas was causing me fits at DW11. It seemed like every time I stopped for fuel I would have to adjust the tune of the engine... (One tank it would be rich the next it would be lean...) On my todo list is putting an alcohol sensor in so the MS2 can "automatically" adjust to the alcohol content of the fuel...

[BadAssPerformance]

Interesting... Alcohol sensor?

This is really making me want to plump a second tank for race gas...

[shadow88]

Test specific gravity for adjustments?

[c2xejk]

More formally called fuel composition sensor or Flex Fuel sensor

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

[Pat]

Do you have a target ET in mind? Fastest you can go is 10.8 in daily driver.

[BadAssPerformance]

More formally called fuel composition sensor or Flex Fuel sensor

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

That's pretty cool...


Do you have a target ET in mind? Fastest you can go is 10.8 in daily driver.

10.80000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000 :D

[contraption22]

Is Nate Pritchett going to be there to give the thumbs down if you go too fast?

[cordes]

Interesting... Alcohol sensor?

This is really making me want to plump a second tank for race gas...

With your vehicles weight I don't think you can afford to plump up anything at this point.

[Shadow]

With your vehicles weight I don't think you can afford to plump up anything at this point.

lol I was just about to drop a post about all of the benefits of running an up-front fuel cell when I got that! :)

[Ondonti]

Flex fuel sensor and MS2 (not sure if you need a device like Zietronix in the middle) should take care of fuel inconsistencies. I know they use them a lot out there and Zietronix is currently sold out again. My E70 fuel was very consistent because it was illegal to mix more then that at high altitude but it would sometimes drop a bit in alcohol content. That error was on the safe side of things.

If you have to do manual tune changes and based on beaker tests then it might be too annoying. I found 91 octane and 34gph of 100% meth pretty potent even with my timing advanced 8 degrees over stock n/a timing...but the motor was 7:1. 8:1 and reasonable timing should still do great. Cars seem to pick up a good 20-30% more power potential over pump gas using basic water/meth (not what I use). 16 valve motor on pump gas and good turbo setup should be good enough to make 500+ and 650 on methanol or just water/meth spray.

That does mean sacrificing low rpm HP and ramping up power as rpms increase so you can maximize power based on your octane. Buying race gas simply to get that big bang grunt at peak torque might not make much difference in your E.T.s depending on how your car is setup. I see no use for big torque numbers in a drag setup. I would rather have a more linear powerband that perfectly matched my available traction in each gear and MPH.

I have seen some pretty sick dyno charts of tuning examples that show you how extreme you can take pump gas tuning (at the sacrifice of low rpm HP).

[BadAssPerformance]

Interesting... might have to thimk more about a pump gas tune for more than getting from track to track

[Ondonti]

BTW those HP numbers are conservative. I know I have seen PT6262 650awhp pump from "English Racing" (maybe top of the line evo shop out there) Evos and those same cars will run low 700's on E85 or race gas from what I remember. That means the are almost maxing the turbo out on pump gas. These are not people who try to share info and the owners are purchasing turnkey cars and would be no help to talk to. My guess would be that Race gas or E85 setup has much bigger low rpm HP numbers but even for Evo's low rpms HP can just cause traction problems.

I know Mellon from Mellontuning has ran his stock motor evo into the 30's for boost with a 35r on pump gas. Per turbo dodge knowledge, this should be impossible, especially with such a big turbo. Peak Hp numbers make sales so these numbers might often reflect the desire to profit more then a desire for performance. Mellons stock motor setup was wicked fast though, outpacing

Here is an example of him making 600whp with a built block on pump gas and 32psi. His old forum (racevideoforum) seems down so a lot of the good info out there is probably lost.
One of his youtube videos he races a customer's car that makes 720whp on E70 fuel (and bigger turbo) and it seems like a much larger gap then peak numbers would suggest, probably because the E70 car has more grunt and AWD roll racing is not so worried about traction at that HP level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJX6j0dLCrs

[BadAssPerformance]

Finally got a minute to post an update...

Completed:
-Installed Aeromotive fuel pump controller
-Changed fuel filters (will post pics of collection)
-Installed fuel level sender in cell
-Installed fuel level guage
-Installed volt guage (no this doesn't measure how many GM Electromotive cars you pass)
-Sent last fall's broken axle to DSS

Still need to:
-test all of the above
-swap in new 5pt harness
-troubleshoot intermittent speedo
-change oil
-find place to tap oil temp
-mod crancase vent / catch can
etc
etc
etc

[contraption22]

Man, you sure have to do a lot of stuff to turn your street car into a street car. :)

[Pat]

You forgot to list AC install.

[BadAssPerformance]

Man, you sure have to do a lot of stuff to turn your street car into a street car. :)

LOL, more like adding creature comforts back in... some things I didn't think I would miss that I actually do. Like a volt gauge, who woulda thought I would want to know what the voltage is? ;)


You forgot to list AC install.

My girlfriend doesn't even care if there is AC in it :p

[Pat]

My girlfriend doesn't even care if there is AC in it :p

Maybe that's because she plans on riding with me. ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Maybe that's because she plans on riding with me. ;)

LOL, she is dodgeshadowchik... but I meant she doesn't even have it in her Talon

[turboshad]

AC is for wimps. One of these is all you need....

45513

[Pat]

LOL, she is dodgeshadowchik... but I meant she doesn't even have it in her Talon


I know, I know. Just messing with ya!!!!

[Reaper1]

It wouldn't matter if MB was riding in a car with A/C or not...it's STILL going to be HOT in there! :eyebrows::leghump::bolt:

[BadAssPerformance]

AC is for wimps. One of these is all you need....

45513

Hell yeah :clap:


I know, I know. Just messing with ya!!!!

I know :thumb:


It wouldn't matter if MB was riding in a car with A/C or not...it's STILL going to be HOT in there! :eyebrows::leghump::bolt:

Yep :nod:

[Reeves]

man, you sure have to do a lot of stuff to turn your street car into a street car. :)

lmao :)

[Ondonti]

Man, you sure have to do a lot of stuff to turn your street car into a street car. :)Better then just scrapping a good car to use something lighter. I think with a EEK car, your car is a street car as long as it is heavier then the lightest option out there. Feeling comfortable with minimal weight added is nice. I see myself only adding weight to my car in the future.

[ATaylorRacing]

AC is for wimps. One of these is all you need....

45513 That is the EXACT one in Matchbox....but I cut off the plug and hard wired it.

- - - Updated - - -

Old Matchbox is 1995 lbs when driven with the 215/60/14 dot Mickeys....only 1945 with the Hoosier 20.5x7x13 road race slicks....and it is street driven.

[Ondonti]

Whats this I hear about....axles :(

[BadAssPerformance]

Yep :(

For last week's racing, SDAC-23 (Muncie) & Monster Mopar (Indy), I upped the tire psi a little and left "softer" slipping the clutch instead of using the 2-step.

At Muncie - 6 passes, no breakage, maybe technique, but probably more due to average traction

At Indy - 2 passes Friday, no breakage, definitely better traction/prep trying to slip a twin disk is difficult. Rain Saturday.

First pass Sunday, broke at launch, driver side axle outer CV. This was the 9th pass on this set. this set also has a different temper on the CV tulip/stubs. Good news, the end didn't snap off, new failure mode, first ever outer CV for DSS (or any) axles in this car.

Second pass Sunday, swapped in fresh set of axles (standard heat treat) broke on launch. Have not taken them out yet, but guessing similar PS inner stub. Will take it out this weekend.

In my last conversation with DSS they recommended a larger spline diameter for the Diff end. Anyone know the spline size (diameter) of SRT-4 axles compares to our axles? I figure the quick 5-speed SRT-4's are heavier and making more power, just curious how those axles stack up?

[Lotashelbys]

It might be time to try a modified inner CV like Mike and I talked about it the meeting last winter.......

[BadAssPerformance]

Yep, gun drilling the ends is part of the conversation with DSS...

I'm somewhat thrilled that the new temper on the ends lasted thru 9 launches including 3 on a VERY sticky track

[turbo2point2]

Not sure if you have seen the inner cv on the set that Eric Depenbrok had made. That thing is a beast. The guy told him" I want to shake your hand if you break these". I'll see if I can get him to post a pic.

[turboshad]

That sucks JT. :(
I can check when I get home but I'm pretty sure the SRT4 has the same diff spline as the 568. Please enlighten me on this gun drilling idea.

[Vigo]

In my last conversation with DSS they recommended a larger spline diameter for the Diff end. Anyone know the spline size (diameter) of SRT-4 axles compares to our axles? I figure the quick 5-speed SRT-4's are heavier and making more power, just curious how those axles stack up?

I dont know the size, but i know they are larger.

SRT/t850 > 'big spline/normal' K-car > 1g neon
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/DSCF7268a5.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/DSCF7268a4.jpg

Intriguing, eh? Makes you wonder if a 568 ring gear will bolt to a t850 diff carrier... Because if so it might be 'simple' (in building a drivetrain for a 10-second FWD car terms..) to put together a setup with SRT-splined inners.

[c2xejk]

Is the axle spline size the reason why we haven't been able to use the SRT4 Quaife?

[turboshad]

I've got a T850 and set of axles at home I'll measure up tonight. You're right, they do look larger in the picture. I can pull the 850 Quaiffe and compare it to the 568 as well.

[Vigo]

^ Excellent! If the ring gear can be made to go onto the t850 diff carrier, the carrier itself is almost guaranteed to be workable in a 568 case.

[Shadow]

The SRT-4 axles are definitely larger diam. and will Not go into a 568. (tried it years ago) I want to say that we also looked into the possibility of swapping the SRT-4 diff section/ring gear and concluded that it did not look promising. Not positive though, so Hopefully something can work out of this, as the 04-05 Stock SRT-4 axles are tough. Dozens of runs on 26" slicks in a Full bodied (no CF) low 11 second car cutting low 1.7X 60's and Zero breakage.

[Vigo]

The 2nd, less desirable option would be trying to swap the open-diff t850 side gears into a k-car diff carrier, or machining the stock diff carrier and re-splining the stock side gears to accept the srt axle. But, that wouldn't get you a limited slip diff unless you did the same work to an obx or quiafe.

[BadAssPerformance]

Not sure if you have seen the inner cv on the set that Eric Depenbrok had made. That thing is a beast. The guy told him" I want to shake your hand if you break these". I'll see if I can get him to post a pic.

Yes, I saw those when you guys came to the Mopar Nats last year, definitely looked beefy! I forgot if I got a pic or not, if Eric can get one that would be great. If he got them from DSS, I would like to reference them!


That sucks JT. :(
I can check when I get home but I'm pretty sure the SRT4 has the same diff spline as the 568. Please enlighten me on this gun drilling idea.

Drilling out the core of the axle rod to make it a tube... theory is to remove the high stress material at the middle of the section. Got free time to FEA/fatigue simulate this? ;)


I've got a T850 and set of axles at home I'll measure up tonight. You're right, they do look larger in the picture. I can pull the 850 Quaiffe and compare it to the 568 as well.

Awesome, let me know what you find! :thumb:


I dont know the size, but i know they are larger.

SRT/t850 > 'big spline/normal' K-car > 1g neon
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/DSCF7268a5.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/neonturbo/Swap/DSCF7268a4.jpg

Intriguing, eh? Makes you wonder if a 568 ring gear will bolt to a t850 diff carrier... Because if so it might be 'simple' (in building a drivetrain for a 10-second FWD car terms..) to put together a setup with SRT-splined inners.

Good info, keep it coming guys! :clap:

[turboshad]

Ask for a rainbow and you shall receive a rainbow. :D

I did a quick solid vs. hollow study and it kind of concluded what I thought. It has been my understanding that drilling a shaft could be done for the purpose of weight and inertia. The peak stresses in a shaft which is in torsion are at the outer skin with a non linear decline to the center. Since the stresses at the center of a hollow shaft are small this material can be removed with little effect on the peak stresses. Therefore you get a shaft which is "just as strong" with less weight and rotational inertia.

I took a 1.5"x12" solid shaft and applied a 500 ftlb torque to the end of it while fixing the opposite end in all directions. I did the same thing but the shaft had a .5" hole down the center. The peak stress in the shaft only changed by 0.36% and the weight was reduced by 11.1%. What was interesting, and this may just be a simulation anomaly, is that the solid shaft wanted to deflect laterally with the torque where the hollow shaft only deflected radially. In the pictures below the deformation is displayed over 100 times greater then real life but you can see how the solid shaft dips at the bottom and the hollow stayed concentric. If this actually happens then there would be added stress if the end of the solid shaft was constrained from moving in this direction.

I couldn't do a fatigue test since I didn't have an S-N curve but the results should be near the same between the two pieces since the peak stresses were so close. The stress distribution pictured also shows why case hardening becomes an ideal solution. It will increase the yield strength of the outer surface where the highest stresses are while leaving the center in a weaker yet more ductile state where the strength isn't needed.

From this I don't see how gun drilling will help the problem at hand but it could be done to lighten the part with very small consequences in the area of strength.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/SolidShaft.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/SolidShaft.jpg.html)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/HollowShaft.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/HollowShaft.jpg.html)

[Lotashelbys]

DJ
What we were thinking about the whole gun drilling idea is that whats happening is the axles are twisting off at the splines. So you take a solid shaft and the twist starts at the center. You take a drilled shaft and now the ID is technically larger and I thought it would be harder to "twist" a hollow shaft with a larger ID that not. Does that make any sense? We would drill it say a 1/4" past the splines and then run a ball end mill in it to get rid of any steps from the bit so there are no stress risers. We also wanted to take a ball end mill and take out the steps at the end of the splines so there is less of a stress riser there as well. Thoughts.........

[depenbrok]

I will post some pics up tomorrow. I'm sure frank from dss will copy them for you Jt. Maybe we should put mine in your car as a test. :eyebrows: I'm pretty confident they won't break!

[Ondonti]

I will post some pics up tomorrow. I'm sure frank from dss will copy them for you Jt. Maybe we should put mine in your car as a test. :eyebrows: I'm pretty confident they won't break!

Excited to see pictures but also an explanation of what you installed these in.

I still feel that things like carbon clutches and preloading are part of the answer.

[Shadow]

trying to slip a twin disk is difficult.


JT, did you extend the pivot arm 1.5" like I showed in the pics I sent you? If not, you will have a very small window of engagement and the clutch will be like a switch, very hard to slip. If you did, then you Should have enough of a window to slip it, just a matter of getting the feel for where that window is.

[turboshad]

Jackson, I see where you're coming from but the fracture will always start and the point of highest stress. As you can see in my quick FEA the outer "shell" of a smooth shaft will have the highest stress. Put a stress riser out there like a spline and you have your point of initial yielding. Shortly after yield will come material failure in the form of a stress fracture which effectively decreases the major OD. Now you have the same torque force and a smaller diameter so the stress becomes greater again. Since there was already enough stress to fail the material it just keeps going until the whole shaft fails. Usually in the fracture you will see a smooth break at the outside where the stress crack started and then it will go to a rougher twisted look where the material failed very quickly all at once as the stress through the whole piece becomes greater and greater. The center of a solid shaft will actually have the least stress in the whole system which is why you can get rid of it with out greatly effecting the strength of the part. Hopefully that makes sense.

I measured the axles last night and the SRT4 came in at ~1.16" on the OD of the splines and the TD axle was 1.08". That gives ~15% more cross sectional area. So not huge but still substantial enough to make a difference. I didn't measure the minor diameter of the splines but I'm sure the gains are close to the same and this was just to get a feel of the size difference.

Now to use the SRT4 spline you would need to either do a bunch of work to the TD diff or use the SRT4 diff. You also need to increase the diff bearings as the shaft inside of the splines is also larger. There is room to fit the SRT4 diff bearings in but the 568 carriers would need to be machined out to match the larger OD.

So onto the diff. I pulled the Quaife from the T850 and compared it to the OBX out of my A568. Side by side they are almost the same height with the Quaife being slightly smaller. Not a real big deal as this could be taken up in bearing shims. I put a level across the top as a quick gauge and it was close. My bench was sloped the other direction by about the same amount so you could say it was about a half degree off level.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/Snapbucket/C09342AE.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/Snapbucket/C09342AE.jpg.html)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/Snapbucket/0787AC19.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/Snapbucket/0787AC19.jpg.html)

When I took the ring gear off you can see the mounting face is a decent amount higher on the OBX. With the Quaife the gear is actually mounted on the opposite side so the SRT4 gear position is way off.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/Snapbucket/1406AB9F.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/Snapbucket/1406AB9F.jpg.html)

Luckily the bore and bolt patter of the 850 vs 568 ring gear is the same so for fun I tried mounting the 568 gear upside down on the top of the Quaife mounting flange. This actually got the gear pretty close to where it needs to be. A small spacer and locater adapter would need to be made as that side of the Quaife wasn't intended to locate a gear but I think it could work. I was starting to get excited so I dropped it in my 568 case and all my hopes were shattered. Because the mounting flange is so thick and offset more to the center it interferes with the case. Then you put the ring gear bolts in and it interferes even more. You make be able to clearance the case and close up the hole you make but I'm not sure how this would effect the strength in that area and my suspicions are it would make it weaker. :(

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/Snapbucket/1D44F874.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/turboshad/media/Snapbucket/1D44F874.jpg.html)

Now I do think it could still work but it would take quite a bit of machining. Regardless of the route taken you need to machine the bearing housings to fit the larger Quaife diff bearings. I don't think that would be too difficult and it is very possible. The only way I see getting the T850 diff to work is to reverse engineer the top section of the Quaife and build it with a flange that matches A568 diff. This isn't a really complicated piece but now you need to pick materials and heat treatment using your best judgement or get the current piece tested for surface hardness and material properties to try and match the original. With out a 3D scanner it will also be fun to precisely locate all the internal bores and mounting holes. Once again, it is very possible but you are starting to look at some serious $$$. A chunk of 4340 or 8620 that size will be rather pricey just to begin with. Then the engineering, machining and heat treating and it wouldn't surprise me if you have a $1000-1500 part by the end. It makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to just build up a T850 and replace the A568.

[Shadow]

It makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to just build up a T850 and replace the A568.

^^^^This was the same conclusion we came to, IF the 568 becomes a weak point, time to upgrade to the T850.

BTW, nice write-up! Couldn't remember (seems like a long time ago) why we scrapped this idea, just remember looking into it and coming to the same conclusion. Your write-up brought it all back :)

[BadAssPerformance]

I will post some pics up tomorrow. I'm sure frank from dss will copy them for you Jt. Maybe we should put mine in your car as a test. :eyebrows: I'm pretty confident they won't break!

Thanks Eric, pics would be a great help for my conversation with Frank! Really curious what is different as I'm afraid the current combo can break any axle :(


Excited to see pictures but also an explanation of what you installed these in.

I still feel that things like carbon clutches and preloading are part of the answer.

I think preloading would help


JT, did you extend the pivot arm 1.5" like I showed in the pics I sent you? If not, you will have a very small window of engagement and the clutch will be like a switch, very hard to slip. If you did, then you Should have enough of a window to slip it, just a matter of getting the feel for where that window is.

I didn't have to extend it with the standard ACT clutch but when I put the twin disk in I was afraid of overextending the spring so did extend it, forgot how far though, was just enough at the time. friction point on this clutch is very minimal, but I think the part that kills axles is how quick it grabs from slip to grip


Ask for a rainbow and you shall receive a rainbow. :D

Thanks, that helps...


.....Now I do think it could still work but it would take quite a bit of machining. Regardless of the route taken you need to machine the bearing housings to fit the larger Quaife diff bearings. I don't think that would be too difficult and it is very possible. The only way I see getting the T850 diff to work is to reverse engineer the top section of the Quaife and build it with a flange that matches A568 diff. This isn't a really complicated piece but now you need to pick materials and heat treatment using your best judgement or get the current piece tested for surface hardness and material properties to try and match the original. With out a 3D scanner it will also be fun to precisely locate all the internal bores and mounting holes. Once again, it is very possible but you are starting to look at some serious $$$. A chunk of 4340 or 8620 that size will be rather pricey just to begin with. Then the engineering, machining and heat treating and it wouldn't surprise me if you have a $1000-1500 part by the end. It makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to just build up a T850 and replace the A568.

Thanks for the detailed info man!

To look at it another way, do you think there is enough meat in the OBX to bore it out for SRT-4 axles and keep the same bearings? The splined inner OBX parts could be EDM'd out to receive the larger shafts.

[cordes]

Thanks DJ. That was a heck of a post.

[moparman76_69]

What if you machined the flange on the quaife down to the same thickness as the 568 flange? That would move the bolts further away from the case. Use the 568 bolts (I'm assuming you used the 850 ones because of the difference in thicknesses). I'm guessing there is enough to be taken off that it could eliminate the interference.

[bakes]

has anyone put a 45* cut on the splines on the side gear to spread the load instead of it being 90*

[Vigo]

I'm thinking the same thing as Moparman: If the 568 is holding the power with that thinner ring gear flange, seems like you could machine down the flange on the 850 diff to the same thickness, or just however much it needs to gain clearance.

Also, it hasn't been mentioned yet, maybe because i dont think it's a major issue anyway, but the passenger side axle on those 850s looks similar to the drivers side in that it is shorter and doesnt have a speed sensor gear on it. Im pretty sure instead of an extension housing they just have a 'flat' bearing and seal retainer. Obviously the 568 never came with one of these, BUT the 604 did and it's already been shown that a 604 piece (namely, the AWD PTU....) can be made to bolt to the 5spd. So, just another piece of the puzzle to consider, but i dont see any real hangups there.

[GLHS60]

If you think that was good you should see him give a tech session on a pickup tailgate!!

Thanks
Randy






Thanks DJ. That was a heck of a post.

[86Shelby]

What are the chances the side gear pieces could be swapped between the 2 quaiffe diffs? Then you are only working with getting the axles to work with seals, the extension housing, and the length of the axles which would all need to be done anyway.

[Vigo]

The rest of the axle end is thicker as well so you'd need to machine everything it passes through to the larger size. Still may be a possibility.

[22shelby]

as far as the 850 goes, isnt that a hydro clutch rather a cable clutch? there in lays another issue for swapping over... i think your on the right track JT with the it don't slip, it just gripps... now i know you have seen this, MB knows this as well, there comes a time in the mitsu world where they stop dumping clutch and starts riding clutch... i mean look at the Red Demon, Devin is slipping clutch AND riding the E brake... you know your car makes the power on the big end... its a MPH monster, so i feel your on that right track with a different launching style... try and figure out how to give her a bit less clutch and maybe a bit more air pressure to allow a bit of spin and make up the run from the 330' on...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xue0naxiu-o


or maybe even figure out a way you can preload the drivetrain on the line to reduce the initial shock off the line... you have mentioned a method to me a few times now using a couple more solenoids :)

[Ondonti]

I have thought about using line locks and another clutch switch that I can modify to work out with my clutch movement on launch (rather then a staging brake). Anyways, with a staging brake it should be easier to slip the clutch because you will already be slipping it at the line instead of trying to find the engagement window each time.

DJ, are you actually going to run some rainbows here or just go out on a project skipping that part over a small diameter difference. I still have at least 1 stress cracked axle in my possestion, definitely fails at the stress riser at the beginning of the spline.

Also, since JT just broke the outter, that means you need to deal with the outers as well.

I still question how hard we are really trying with the dimensions that we already have. I still see a little shock load breaking what we are currently using or something of similar quality and slightly larger.

[Reaper1]

This exact topic has been being discussed on the "Has anyone broken an OBX" thread.

What about using the axle tube as a torsion spring? Not necessarily making the axle stronger, but rather tougher. So that would protect the axle splines.

[Vigo]

What about using the axle tube as a torsion spring?

Torque steer? Might be a problem with 10-second car torque on slicks? Just a thought, not a strong belief yet. :)

[Ondonti]

Well first we just need a vendor to start installing carbon pucks on clutch discs. Carbonetic charges way to much for the very few applications they do support with their "blade" style discs.

[Reaper1]

Torque steer? Might be a problem with 10-second car torque on slicks? Just a thought, not a strong belief yet. :)

I really don't think that will be an issue. They would only be acting in that manner at the instant of launch or possibly wheel hop. I don't think this option would work on anything that has "regular" suspension. Solid suspension mounting (Heim joints, pillow ball strut mounts, ect.) would be needed for this to work correctly.


Well first we just need a vendor to start installing carbon pucks on clutch discs. Carbonetic charges way to much for the very few applications they do support with their "blade" style discs.

I do agree that a carbon clutch would be a great thing and would be a wonderful addition to help prevent axle breakage (and other driveline breakage).

[BadAssPerformance]

I still question how hard we are really trying with the dimensions that we already have. I still see a little shock load breaking what we are currently using or something of similar quality and slightly larger.

Yep, that's the real trick isn't it? What's the equation to calculate the "jerk" from a torsional impact? Statically, a 1" CM shaft should be good to ~3000ft-lb, but when you smack it hard, that is significantly reduced...


Torque steer? Might be a problem with 10-second car torque on slicks? Just a thought, not a strong belief yet. :)

With a good alignment there is not much "torque steer" as much as the LSD fighting for traction left to right each gear

[Vigo]

Are you using an equal-length axle setup or long pass side axle?

[BadAssPerformance]

DSS uses unequal length... I found that the u-joint yoke is the weak link of the equal length

[turboshad]

I'm thinking the same thing as Moparman: If the 568 is holding the power with that thinner ring gear flange, seems like you could machine down the flange on the 850 diff to the same thickness, or just however much it needs to gain clearance.


It might work but it would still be tight. The flange on the T850 is still offset even if you machine the bottom portion.


DJ, are you actually going to run some rainbows here or just go out on a project skipping that part over a small diameter difference.

I'm not sure what you are wanting me to do. You want me to FEA a splined shaft with similar dimensions to the stock pieces?


as far as the 850 goes, isnt that a hydro clutch rather a cable clutch?

That doesn't seem like a really large hurdle to me and I see allot of benefits to the hydro setup. That could explain why I picked up a Tilton HTOB and some Wilwood MCs at SDAC this year. :evil:

[Aries_Turbo]

That doesn't seem like a really large hurdle to me and I see allot of benefits to the hydro setup. That could explain why I picked up a Tilton HTOB and some Wilwood MCs at SDAC this year. :evil:

larryb built a hydro master cyl setup in 2004-2005 that tucks up under the dash. it was pretty slick. he even had a show and tell piece to pass around.

the best part about hydro is that you can have a bag of restrictor fittings and make a setup that has a timed release so it can be set to slip a small amount to reduce driveline shock even if you dump it like a crazy baboon. :)

dial that in to your setup with a clutch that can handle a bit of slip and watch your axles live.

Brian

- - - Updated - - -


Well first we just need a vendor to start installing carbon pucks on clutch discs. Carbonetic charges way to much for the very few applications they do support with their "blade" style discs.

do you know the material needed and a place to get it?

seems like someone with a press/rivets could one off this stuff on a standard disc thats available.

Brian

[Vigo]

MY crazy baboon --- just pictured bolting an adjustable shock absorber to the clutch arm to control release speed. *brachiates away*

[turboshad]

I've seen it done with the shock from a screened door. :)

[turbovanman²]

Hmmmmmm, all this axle breakage, should stay auto, :eyebrows:

That power on pump gas from Brent, impressive.

[Ondonti]

do you know the material needed and a place to get it?

seems like someone with a press/rivets could one off this stuff on a standard disc thats available.

Brian
One thing that I have noticed about carbon discs is a lot of material failures. That means you have to accept clutch rebuilds as a normal thing it seems. I don't know if vendors like that idea since we have some real complainers out there about "race parts," (like people wanting "soft" solid motor mounts). I am saying that based on the heavy use of RPS twin disc carbon clutches in 3000gt's.
I would think simply putting on new pucks should not cost too much as long as we avoid markup.
Maybe TU or FWD would be willing to try sourcing something. I would probably like to own 2 discs, one for use and one as backup in that situation. I honestly love my solid hub for driving but I think it kills parts. Carbonetic still seems to use sprung hubs which are not our friend at high rpms.


Hmmmmmm, all this axle breakage, should stay auto, :eyebrows:

That power on pump gas from Brent, impressive. Well 7.0:1 compression and more methanol then gasoline doesn't really count as pump gas haha. I still question the reliance on that much methanol because I don't truest the systems. Evos make 600 sometimes on 2/3 the displacement on true pump gas with smaller turbos!
I do think that JT on pure pump gas would save axles cause he would slow down. I also wonder how scared guys are to bog a little and save those axles. 2500 rpm launch control, etc. I am willing to bog a bit. I don't think its HP thats breaking anything for me, it was shockloading from a heavy rotating assembly at high rpms.
I have not made a pass on slicks in 3 years but I would like to start low and see how little RPM I could get away with and not completely destroy the 60' The problem with that is that as far as repeatability goes, you would need to use the same clutch technique each time etc. Heck, maybe low rpm launches with a lot of clutch slip could get near the same 60'. As long as your turbo is not too slow to come on.



I'm not sure what you are wanting me to do. You want me to FEA a splined shaft with similar dimensions to the stock pieces?:
Well if it was worth researching the stock size, why not the larger size. I don't know how much stronger that shaft would be but with how easy JT is breaking axles and my assumption that he is not actually going all out, a small increase in strength might just last a little longer, or still break on the first bad launch.

[Vigo]

I also wonder how scared guys are to bog a little and save those axles. 2500 rpm launch control, etc. I am willing to bog a bit. I don't think its HP thats breaking anything for me, it was shockloading from a heavy rotating assembly at high rpms.

Well i remember when ohiorob made a thread about 4t60s and i was trying to make the point that on the video of Stephane's old 8 sec Charger that it looked like he was leaving on ~5psi and clearly making up for it, that we wouldnt need to think about going to other trannies if people would just accept that they needed to launch a little softer. In that case it was more about brake-boosting autos causing a crazy spreading load between the ring and pinion in the autos, and in this case it is more about breaking axles with 5spds, but either way a softer launch is the answer. Seems like there are many ways to get a 'controlled' parts-saving launch that are not being explored in this community. There are people in this community who are making stock parts live through crazy stuff, purely with human finesse of working the clutch and shifter well, but anyone can have a bad day and break a lot of expensive stuff. I think once you get to a certain level you don't want to break stuff, and it would be nice to have a system in place to save your ---, and make your car more consistent so you can 'see around' some of the driving inconsistencies and find out what the variables you INTENTIONALLY change are actually doing.

[BadAssPerformance]

OK, took a little time to update the findings.... I re-measured and calculated the true axle angles (had not yet done this with coil overs and 26" tires) Measurement pictures attached,
459514595245954459554595045953
calculations as follows:
Driv Side Pass Side
YZ (deg) 11 2.5
XY (deg) 5.23 3.83

YZ hypot L (in) 10.187 10.010
YZ - Z ht (in) 1.944 0.437

XY hypot L (in) 10.042 10.022
True Ang (deg) 10.96 2.49

The true angle is a little high on the driver side, but under the ~14° I had in my notes from a couple years ago. Also the axle angle reduces when the car launches.

I also looked at the tailshaft housing to see if it was supporting the passenger side axle sufficiently. I measured the current trans at 1.3995” and the old trans at 1.4005”. I measured the SET-1 passenger side axle at 1.3940” and the SET-2 passenger side axle at 1.3930” so on average about 0.0065” (diameter) or .00325” (radius) clearance. This sounds OK to me, thoughts? Measurement pics attached.
459694597045971459494595645957

I then started thinking back to when the car started breaking axles. I just went from 24.5” to 26” tires and on top of that, I went to a twin disk clutch. I also was using a 2-step to launch with. I think this combination is what’s putting the extra stress on the driveline.

For SDAC, I decided to air up the 26” slicks and launched without the 2-step and slipped the clutch. On SET-1, (Muncie Dragway), I made 5 passes between Q8 qualifying and was the Q8 runner up. Was very excited that they were holding up well! SET-1 was one of the sets that was tempered at a lower hardness to try to improve the “spring” and be less brittle. On to Monster Mopar Indy (Lucas) I made two good time runs on Friday. After all of these clean launches, I was thinking the 2-step was the main problem? We were rained out Saturday and on Sunday morning for the time run, the axle broke right at the line, BUT this was a new failure, the outer CV joint on the driver’s side instead of the splined inner end. I have not taken it apart, so not sure if it is the joint or the shaft? It does look like the splines on the inner end of the driver side shaft are starting to twist. I attached pictures and uploaded a video: Driver Side Axle (Set 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mJK1wZ8-c
4595845959459604596145962

I swapped in the SET-2 before round 1. I really appreciate DSS shipping these to the hotel during the events and was very glad to have them. I forgot to confirm if these were the “standard” heat treat, or if they also had the better temper? I’m guessing these were standard because even slipping the clutch, launching in round 1 the inner end on the passenger side axle broke like the others. It also appears that there is some play in the inner CV joint. Could this be a potential cause of fracture? Upon further inspection it also appears that the driver side inner splines started to twist as well. I attached pictures and uploaded a video: Passenger Side Axle (Set 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWTpDscUJ9A
459634596445965459664596745968

I think that the new temper helped. I also think that a softer launch without using the 2-step also helped.

I sent a very similar e-mail to DSS and the axles will be back on the way to them tomorrow. I am also looking to get the axle stub ends hardness' measured.

I really want to figure this out, but am currently thinking about going back to 24.5” tires or a lighter single disk clutch or both just to try to improve longevity...

[turboshad]

When I get a chance I'll try to do a more thorough analysis with splines and also see how much the 6-7 thou play contributes. I took a look at the axles I pulled from the Shadow last fall and there are no signs of twist. I've had this set in since I broke my only axle while I was in the 11s. After that break I changed my launch technique to be a bit softer and haven't broken one since. That being said you have waaaaay more passes under your belt and on your axles then I do. I'll be curious to see what happens when I go 26s with a twin like yourself, though I do plan on incorporating some launch slip control with the hydro setup. I think I've got it figured out to be able to program in a time or speed based slip curve so I can completely tune the whole clutch release. I'm excited though it will still be at least a year before I have things back together.

[Aries_Turbo]

...... though I do plan on incorporating some launch slip control with the hydro setup. I think I've got it figured out to be able to program in a time or speed based slip curve so I can completely tune the whole clutch release. I'm excited though it will still be at least a year before I have things back together.

MCU controlling a hydraulic solenoid with PWM? a setup like that with feedback to increase or decrease the slip time as needed would be killer. :)

Brian

[Ondonti]

MCU controlling a hydraulic solenoid with PWM? a setup like that with feedback to increase or decrease the slip time as needed would be killer. :)

Brian

Well it might also be a money maker.

26 vs 24.5 was a huge deal with FWD import racing was still big. The 26's were basically banned from the non outlaw SFWD races (and even some of the outlaw races) because the use of 26's meant people with small budgets couldn't really participate. Most people here probably did not follow much of their struggles. I also don't think those people were very open about some of their problems. A large number of people who were unable to participate in events were those who broke axles at the last event and were waiting for replacements, or were borrowing the other guys axles when another car was down, etc. Bigger money teams had multiple sets of axles. They had multiple companies competing for business at the time and still had little success. The faster cars that are more consistent are guys who are being very very careful even if they have high dollar parts. Nobody wants to have to fix their car between rounds (or get knocked out) instead of spend time dialing it in.
I will also say to those looking for invincible parts without regard to using safeguards, even the high dollar teams took apart their Liberty dog boxes every race and regularly found parts failing, especially on 26's

JT, did you do any measuresments FWD to AFT for those axles? I know we can reclock the transmission up and down with the bobble but that changes the FWD/AFT angles.

[BadAssPerformance]

When I get a chance I'll try to do a more thorough analysis with splines and also see how much the 6-7 thou play contributes. I took a look at the axles I pulled from the Shadow last fall and there are no signs of twist. I've had this set in since I broke my only axle while I was in the 11s. After that break I changed my launch technique to be a bit softer and haven't broken one since. That being said you have waaaaay more passes under your belt and on your axles then I do. I'll be curious to see what happens when I go 26s with a twin like yourself, though I do plan on incorporating some launch slip control with the hydro setup. I think I've got it figured out to be able to program in a time or speed based slip curve so I can completely tune the whole clutch release. I'm excited though it will still be at least a year before I have things back together.

An analysis if the play hurts would be great!

For passes on DSS axles...

24.5" slicks, ~200 passes, no axle break
26" slicks, most I have gotten on a set is ~10


Well it might also be a money maker.

26 vs 24.5 was a huge deal with FWD import racing was still big. The 26's were basically banned from the non outlaw SFWD races (and even some of the outlaw races) because the use of 26's meant people with small budgets couldn't really participate. Most people here probably did not follow much of their struggles. I also don't think those people were very open about some of their problems. A large number of people who were unable to participate in events were those who broke axles at the last event and were waiting for replacements, or were borrowing the other guys axles when another car was down, etc. Bigger money teams had multiple sets of axles. They had multiple companies competing for business at the time and still had little success. The faster cars that are more consistent are guys who are being very very careful even if they have high dollar parts. Nobody wants to have to fix their car between rounds (or get knocked out) instead of spend time dialing it in.
I will also say to those looking for invincible parts without regard to using safeguards, even the high dollar teams took apart their Liberty dog boxes every race and regularly found parts failing, especially on 26's

JT, did you do any measuresments FWD to AFT for those axles? I know we can reclock the transmission up and down with the bobble but that changes the FWD/AFT angles.

Yeah, the 26's seem to be a major culprit here... :(

I originally mounted the 2.4L with the axle centerline within 3/16" of stock, but I have custom solid mounts on all sides so can move the axle centerline a bit, at the cost of having to re-route intercooler plumbing

[turboshad]

Did you ever find out if they are through hardening or case hardening? If case, will they tell you the hardness and case depth?

[fishcleaner]

Yeah, the 26's seem to be a major culprit here... :(

You would think the more sidewall on the 26 would offer more stress relief or was the 24.5 spinning and the 26 hooking up?

[Reaper1]

It looks like the axles are case hardened.

Axle alignment is very important.

I wonder if you can leave the 26's, 2-step, ect, but use the engine tune to do torque management while launching?

[Vigo]

You would think the more sidewall on the 26 would offer more stress relief or was the 24.5 spinning and the 26 hooking up?

Well, i think the main thing is preventing load 'spikes', and to my thinking, if the 26s are easier to wrinkle and harder to spin, they are probably worse about that spike than a smaller slick. Imagine it like running a bumper car into a spring mounted to a wall. A stiffer spring attached to a wall that will move, is a lot better than running into a soft spring attached to a wall that will NOT move.

[contraption22]

I know many consider it cheating, but if you add a small shot of nitrous, you won't have to launch as violently and you will be able to save some axles.

[turbo2point2]

4603846039460404604146042

Eric sent me these pics to share. I have a few more I can load later on...

[Reaper1]

So he cut off the stock end and welded on....????

[bakes]

but the majority of the brakes are at the splines

[BadAssPerformance]

Did you ever find out if they are through hardening or case hardening? If case, will they tell you the hardness and case depth?

Will try to find out, or measure the pile of snapped off ends... you got a rockwell or knoop tester there?


You would think the more sidewall on the 26 would offer more stress relief or was the 24.5 spinning and the 26 hooking up?

Yes stress relief until it grabs which is only 30° or les sfo tire rotation? I think the combination of hook (instead of spin) and the 13" moment arm (vs. 12.25") combine for a harder hit


I wonder if you can leave the 26's, 2-step, ect, but use the engine tune to do torque management while launching?

Yeah, I could stage boost or bog it with fuel or timing... hard part is tuning to different tracks this way


I know many consider it cheating, but if you add a small shot of nitrous, you won't have to launch as violently and you will be able to save some axles.

I've thought about it, but really i havn't even turned up the boostor even adjusted teh cams or anything to make more power yet. Just been trying to 60' the car better to get the ET more in line with the MPH


4603846039460404604146042

Eric sent me these pics to share. I have a few more I can load later on...

Thanks Brian adn Eric! Possibly got any zoomed out to show the whole axles? or one of the inner end of the long axle where I've been breaking?

[Ondonti]

BTW, even Red Sled was been running 24.5's at almost everything he has been doing.

BTW, if you have the ability to retard timing per MPH (or time based retard) then you can run tons of boost but make very little power. This way you can keep the turbo spooled up but your hit will have less power behind it (and ramp up as quickly as you want to bring timing back since the turbo is already spooled up).

I think setting the car up to bog and then fighting that with clutch slip would be the simplest way. Either you have bog pass or you slip the car through to a great pass ......instead of your "bad" pass being a breakage because you were too harsh with the clutch.
I think that is what I will try as long as I am with my current drivetrain. Low 2 step and try to clutch slip out of it. I don't believe in the blip throttle thing as long as you are trying to be consistent. Consistent launches are something you can slowly improve as you tweak things and that should prevent you from breaking things...and if you are consistent you should be able to tell what mistake lead to shockloads and breakage.

T-850 requires a bunch of upgrade parts and I don't know what happened to the high dollar Ragetek dogbox. They did sell a billet input shaft since the OEM one is garbage. The website has all that stuff removed now, and the cost was 1500 bucks for just the input shaft, 5200 for the dogbox builder kit with untested parts.
Interesting thread here where Red Sled thought about but never ran the dogbox but mentions billet straight cut transfer gears for the 31te that Frenchy Ran and he was trying to make some.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f56/red-sled-rage-tech-dog-box-563506/index3.html

[contraption22]

I've thought about it, but really i havn't even turned up the boostor even adjusted teh cams or anything to make more power yet. Just been trying to 60' the car better to get the ET more in line with the MPH

Sounds like you are arguing a pretty good case to spray!

[BadAssPerformance]

$1500 input shaft? .... oie.

Ordered a set of 24.5" M&H's... Thinking to be safe I might go back to a single disc clutch too? Hmm....

[Reaper1]

$1500 for a custom input shaft isn't bad, if it's made correctly. It's a low volume part made of a material that is a serious pain to machine, and requires some machining methods that take the correct tooling to make happen in the tolerances required. Plus, you guys are already spending that much on axle sets. At the point in the game that you guys are at, I don't think it should surprise you at all that this kind of investment is what is "normal" to get some semblance of reliability out of 25+ year old technology that is being pushed to 400%+ of its nominal load rating.

Yeah, we love our TM's. We love how "inexpensive" it is to get to a certain level of performance. However, I think it's quite acceptable to expect this kind of investment to get the best of both performance and reliability at this stage in the game. Look at what the diesel guys spend on transmissions. They don't blink at spending $3k on a torque converter, $800 on an output shaft...ect. Looking at the performance gains on a percentage level, and we aren't that much different.

[BadAssPerformance]

$1500 for a custom input shaft isn't bad, if it's made correctly.

Sorry if my short phrase seemed to infer that I didn't think that was a fair price for a badass input shaft... I do think it's a reasonable price and I know exactly what it cost to make stuff.

Also, you may have noticed that I'm not afraid to shell out cash when I want/need something? LOL ;)

My "oie" was because that is only one component of a trans and when you start adding stuff up, the total gets large rather quickly and at the end of it you may have a "built T850" that still might not last like Brent said, the ragetek users were rebuilding each race...

...so as it adds up and I really don't have time to rebuild stuff every weekend... it makes me think about a true purpose built straight cut gear dogbox or Lenco type transaxle. then I say oie, that's a lot of work and investment...

[contraption22]

$1500 for a custom input shaft isn't bad, if it's made correctly. It's a low volume part made of a material that is a serious pain to machine, and requires some machining methods that take the correct tooling to make happen in the tolerances required. Plus, you guys are already spending that much on axle sets. At the point in the game that you guys are at, I don't think it should surprise you at all that this kind of investment is what is "normal" to get some semblance of reliability out of 25+ year old technology that is being pushed to 400%+ of its nominal load rating.

Yeah, we love our TM's. We love how "inexpensive" it is to get to a certain level of performance. However, I think it's quite acceptable to expect this kind of investment to get the best of both performance and reliability at this stage in the game. Look at what the diesel guys spend on transmissions. They don't blink at spending $3k on a torque converter, $800 on an output shaft...ect. Looking at the performance gains on a percentage level, and we aren't that much different.


That's very well stated.

[Vigo]

...so as it adds up and I really don't have time to rebuild stuff every weekend... it makes me think about a true purpose built straight cut gear dogbox or Lenco type transaxle. then I say oie, that's a lot of work and investment...

Yeah screw all that! I think if you stick to 24.5s and maybe invest in a hydro clutch conversion with a tunable release like what's been talked about, then you can quit worrying about breaking stuff on the launch and then focus on other stuff.. Or if you want to keep messing with the launch, you can do it in the tune as well.. Between a consistent, controlled clutch release and what you can do with the engine management, you may be able to go back to 26s but i wouldnt bother until you have at least some of that stuff in place. I just dont think throwing stronger parts at it ($$$) is the best way to go when there is always that possibility of working your clutch leg wrong and breaking that stuff too..

[BadAssPerformance]

Funny thing is it went 10.61 on 24.5's and only 10.56 on 26's... Hmmm

[turbovanman²]

$1500 input shaft? .... oie.

Ordered a set of 24.5" M&H's... Thinking to be safe I might go back to a single disc clutch too? Hmm....

Sell the twin disc cheap? :eyebrows: :lol:


Sorry if my short phrase seemed to infer that I didn't think that was a fair price for a badass input shaft... I do think it's a reasonable price and I know exactly what it cost to make stuff.

Also, you may have noticed that I'm not afraid to shell out cash when I want/need something? LOL ;)

My "oie" was because that is only one component of a trans and when you start adding stuff up, the total gets large rather quickly and at the end of it you may have a "built T850" that still might not last like Brent said, the ragetek users were rebuilding each race...

...so as it adds up and I really don't have time to rebuild stuff every weekend... it makes me think about a true purpose built straight cut gear dogbox or Lenco type transaxle. then I say oie, that's a lot of work and investment...

Cough auto cough.


Funny thing is it went 10.61 on 24.5's and only 10.56 on 26's... Hmmm

And didn't keep breaking shitt, :p

[BadAssPerformance]

Sell the twin disc cheap? :eyebrows: :lol:

$1200? ;)


Cough auto cough.

Maybe if I lost a leg? :D


And didn't keep breaking shitt, :p

yep... THATS what I miss about the 24.5's! :nod:

[cordes]

Sorry if my short phrase seemed to infer that I didn't think that was a fair price for a badass input shaft... I do think it's a reasonable price and I know exactly what it cost to make stuff.

Also, you may have noticed that I'm not afraid to shell out cash when I want/need something? LOL ;)

My "oie" was because that is only one component of a trans and when you start adding stuff up, the total gets large rather quickly and at the end of it you may have a "built T850" that still might not last like Brent said, the ragetek users were rebuilding each race...

...so as it adds up and I really don't have time to rebuild stuff every weekend... it makes me think about a true purpose built straight cut gear dogbox or Lenco type transaxle. then I say oie, that's a lot of work and investment...

There was a link which Reaper posted regarding the direction of stress for the different cuts of gear in transmissions. I didn't like what straight cut gears would do to some of the areas on the case, but I'm an amature engineer in my own mind at best...

[turbovanman²]

$1200? ;)

I don't want to buy the car, :p



Maybe if I lost a leg? :D

That can be arranged, :eyebrows:


I'm an amature engineer in my own mind at best...

Aren't they part of an electric motor?

[cordes]

I don't want to buy the car, :p




That can be arranged, :eyebrows:



Aren't they part of an electric motor?

Did you think I meant armature?

[BadAssPerformance]

I don't want to buy the car, :p

you ain't got enough cash ;P


That can be arranged, :eyebrows:

lol, tuff guy

[turbovanman²]

Did you think I meant armature?

Buggin ya dude, as its spelled "amateur" :p


you ain't got enough cash ;P

What, my penny collection won't do? :confused:



lol, tuff guy

Me, tough guy, nope, but I know others who are, :lol:

[22shelby]

torque convertor and just smash the gears??? i know the puller guys use an automatic with a clutch instead of a TC...

[BadAssPerformance]

LOL... hey, do you still have that link you set for the dogbox? post it up!

[22shelby]

chu talking to me?? you talking about that Red FWD lenco style?

[BadAssPerformance]

chu talking to me?? you talking about that Red FWD lenco style?

yes, and yes please

[22shelby]

found eet!! :D http://www.paradiseracing.com/gforce3.htm
apparently its a Gforce transmission called the GT50....grip and rip baby!!

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and from my searching it seems the liberty transmission si doing a Transaxle aswell... ill link that aswell..

seems to be Honda specific but im sure with your sweet talking they would consider joining the mopar world...

what would be nice with the Gforce is the use of a slipper clutch!!! roll out as hard or soft as you want to set it up, then slam gears down the track!

http://www.libertysgears.com/frontwheeldrive.htm

[BadAssPerformance]

found eet!! :D http://www.paradiseracing.com/gforce3.htm
apparently its a Gforce transmission called the GT50....grip and rip baby!!

http://www.libertysgears.com/frontwheeldrive.htm

*drool* ...yes, this is awesome

[Reaper1]

Crap...after reading what I wrote and then the response I need to apologize. Sorry, JT. My statement came out like I was attacking you. I didn't mean that at all! :(

I've been thinking about a custom FWD gearbox for years, mainly to get 6 gears and a dogbox. The thing is, I can't find any that are rated to handle the torque we are making. All the ones I find (save for the 3-speed dogboxes made for FWD pro drag racing) are more for touring cars and the like and are rated much lower than what my goals (and most everybody that is in the 11's in a TM) are. These boxes range anywhere from $7500-30,000+. Now, I don't know if those ratings are like the factory and have a very large factor of safety on them, but I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, then blow the thing to smitherines and find out that because I exceeded their ratings there is no warranty or support! Oh, and the prices are just for the box, not the custom bellhousing, clutch, CV's, mounts, shifter...ect

This is the major reason behind me keeping the idea of swapping the car to RWD very much open. Well, this and the fact that we don't have any real support for our own trannies...we can't even get new parts like bearings for them anymore! :( I know most of the TM world will not want to do the RWD conversion, so the next best bet is to either make it so our trannies have support, or find aftermarket racing boxes that will do what we need. I do believe there is a LOT left in our stock transmissions...IF we can get more support back for them so we can actually build them. Hording parts doesn't count! LOL

Anyway...WAY off topic now!

The only things I'd do to our gears are: lighten them (many ways to do this), modify them for dog engagement (requires modding the synchro assembly...and I mean full dog, not a crash box), polish them, and coatings applied (oil shedding and friction reduction).

I've been pondering case reinforcement recently. I've thought about an external "cage" or welding straps to it to help strengthen the case where the maximum loads are that cause issues, like spreading. Of course I don't know if anyone has tried any kind of heat treatment/chryo treatment, or peening yet either.

I'm positive that the axle problems we are seeing ("we" meaning you guys that actually have running cars LOL) can be solved. I just hope that somehow more support can be garnered for the transmission itself. It seriously sucks that it's nearing to the point that we can't find new parts for them.

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I looked at the GT50 and from what I gathered it is out of production, I *think*. For dedicated drag cars it would be great, but for people that want to drive the car more than that, you need either a huge air tank or a compressor so you have a constant air supply. Plus, it's not designed for other types of driving, so who knows what the downshifting is like. As for it being clutchless...Are they using a torque converter or some other type of slipper coupling? If not, then how does the car not move while the transmission is in gear and the car is not moving with the engine running?

The Liberty option would be more inline with the Neon trannies. Ours already are designed like that...4 gears inside, 5th outside. They are simply doing the same thing, but they have to use an adapter to do it.

A billet case would be nice, but it doesn't solve our other issues we have.

[turboshad]

Liberty has built a dogbox for the T850. I was going to try to faceplate an A568 but then found out at SDAC that there is a guy on the forum who is having Liberty do it for him. I haven't had a chance to call and talk with him any further than PMs but my guess is that the price Liberty would set would make any thought of me try to do it myself stupid. I also wonder if it's worth putting money into that type of procedure or just putting it towards a whole gear set. Personally right now I'm at the point of deciding whether to carry on with the A568 or switch to the T850. As of today I'm leaning more to the T850 as it is much more conducive in my opinion to modifying. Making a straight cut A568 isn't as easy and parts breakage would be more costly because of the input shaft with integral gears. As Reaper pointed out the GT50 is a strictly drag tranny, which wouldn't matter too much for JTs street car but for most of us its not an option. That being said it looks like a fine piece of engineering. JTs breakages are a problem but I do think there are options for him to continue on the path while being easier on parts. It's just up to him what he wants to or is willing to do.

[BadAssPerformance]

Crap...after reading what I wrote and then the response I need to apologize. Sorry, JT. My statement came out like I was attacking you. I didn't mean that at all! :(

No apology bro, your statements were pretty bang on for the masses :thumb:


Liberty has built a dogbox for the T850. I was going to try to faceplate an A568 but then found out at SDAC that there is a guy on the forum who is having Liberty do it for him. I haven't had a chance to call and talk with him any further than PMs but my guess is that the price Liberty would set would make any thought of me try to do it myself stupid. I also wonder if it's worth putting money into that type of procedure or just putting it towards a whole gear set. Personally right now I'm at the point of deciding whether to carry on with the A568 or switch to the T850. As of today I'm leaning more to the T850 as it is much more conducive in my opinion to modifying. Making a straight cut A568 isn't as easy and parts breakage would be more costly because of the input shaft with integral gears.

YES interested...


As Reaper pointed out the GT50 is a strictly drag tranny, which wouldn't matter too much for JTs street car but for most of us its not an option.

LOL... if it can drive through the pits, staging lanes, down the track and return road, I'd drive it anywhere :nod:


That being said it looks like a fine piece of engineering. JTs breakages are a problem but I do think there are options for him to continue on the path while being easier on parts. It's just up to him what he wants to or is willing to do.

Yep, plenty of options... since I'm a back to basics guy... the 24.5's shipped today!

Kinda leaning towards keeping the twin disk for now tho...

[turboshad]

Yep, plenty of options... since I'm a back to basics guy... the 24.5's shipped today!

Kinda leaning towards keeping the twin disk for now tho...

There ya go. That's why I love cars, so many ways to do and try things and you'd be hard pressed to call one method definitively better then the next until they are all tried. I'll be taking a way different approach and it will be cool to see both results. My whole approach has changed some watching you go through things so I appreciate what you've shared. Heck, I would probably still be in the 13s if it were for the openness of this community. I think as a community we will be learning allot about drivelines in the next few years. Now lets get that red beast back on the track and bust out some PBs. :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

There ya go. That's why I love cars, so many ways to do and try things and you'd be hard pressed to call one method definitively better then the next until they are all tried. I'll be taking a way different approach and it will be cool to see both results. My whole approach has changed some watching you go through things so I appreciate what you've shared. Heck, I would probably still be in the 13s if it were for the openness of this community. I think as a community we will be learning allot about drivelines in the next few years. Now lets get that red beast back on the track and bust out some PBs. :thumb:

Yep, great community, that's for sure! :grouphug: I always appreciate how much folks share and like to share what I go thru so others don't have to LOL!

Yep, always so many ways to do it, whenever I get stuck, I try to take steps back... thinking 24.5's, weaker clutch and 3.50:1 FDR ran forever that way. I might try it in steps tho, back to 24.5's keep the clutch and 3.85 gear just curious to see what that combo does. Gotta solve the cutout issue too, but need to last more than a pass to do that, LOL!

Probably no PB's, just gotta get the car running consistent and reliable before Drag Week :nod:

[turboshad]

We just need someone to tie MB to the train tracks at the top end. You'll get down quicker then you ever have. :D

[cordes]

We just need someone to tie MB to the train tracks at the top end. You'll get down quicker then you ever have. :D

I've always wanted a sweet handlebar mustache...

[Reaper1]

Oh lord....and I was going to leave this alone....oh the PC incorrectness going through my brain!

[Ondonti]

Liberty transmissions ARE the ones that Honda guys were inspecting every race (and faster guys were having to make repairs each race). Should I mention how much torque they are NOT making? Their 1000+hp guys are often making just a little more torque then the top people here. Kyle from Utah was maybe the 2nd fastest Honda out of Utah and he was the one fixing stuff every race that I know this first hand from. I don't think this stuff was publicized. I believe that car only got into the low 9's at Pomona. Huge weight advantage vs JT's beast. Most Honda guys refused to run 26's or would show up to 26" outlawSFWD events on 24.5's and expect to lose to the people who could afford new parts after the race. I don't think they spent much effort launching softly like DSM or Evo guys do, and I don't even know if they all preload the drivetrain (though I do see even n/a honda top dogs preloading).

As Chris said they are basically designing their transmissions to be like ours already is.

I don't see why we would worry about our input shaft being a solid piece since if we made an "improved" one when the stockers never fail, I don't see a failure coming.

The problem is axle breakage. I don't see other things being a problem outside of the need for increased maintenance schedules on a race transmission (and expecting failures to happen as time goes on).
Probably the reason the Honda guys hurt their Dogboxes is because they have gone so far on their axle improvements that they no longer had an obvious fuse for those times they shockload the drivetrain.

I would be interested to know what Frenchy was doing with his axles beyond just using an auto transmission. Also, how violent was his 1-2 shift etc.

I think people could learn from watching some of the Evo videos I have seen of Buscher racing and their 8-9 second evos that run tiny turbos. Some of those cars hit so soft you guys would really be complaining about "oh no my 60'!" but I don't think shockloading the axles ever helped a 60' in a FWD.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPX_tnEXSA
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1axhKCqm_F8


Here 8.8@169mph. Only 1.54 60'

In his slower car on pump gas the video I watched he is a bit more violent with the clutch (30mph slower car).

Here is a video of what looks like a failure to slip the clutch and a catastrophic failure. Instead of slip then rip like the videos above, its rip then broken rear axle which results in the engine tone changing with less load on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1LQ2ROhASY

Now, if you watch his customers videos I see them complaining about bogging (and how they have 60' 1.37 on cars slower then the above) or they just go all out on their launch, but these guys are also saying "i will go faster with blah blah improved drivetrain parts" indicating they are in the business of making other people money.

I would take less stock in making the MPH match the e.t. That is one thing even the highest power Hondas did not attempt. The big money guys who ran 26's never ran 28's just to prove a point, they controlled their power all the way down the track so they could hit low 8's at 180-190mph. Those are not balanced numbers compared to John Shepherds Talon or an automatic transmission RWD.
I also don't think its fair to compare E.T. and MPH to an Auto transmission car. We all like to think about how Manual transmissions give up e.t. for MPH but we avoid the fact that autos give up MPH for E.T. This means that the auto trans car that you think you make the same HP as because you trap the same, might make a lot more. I think this whole idea is bunk. At some point you can only improve so much with a reasonable investment. This is just like balancing HP made with boost and HP made with rpms. Making double the HP but halving the torque would be a good thing when it comes to your drivetrain. You have to plan ahead with all aspects of your build. I plan to use stock 6g72 rods for as long as I can get away with it so I will experiment with crazy rpms to reduce torque but seek higher power. My stock rods will handle over 9000 rpms (unknown fatique results) but 600-700ftlb and a perfect tune will slowly fatigue them and they will bend over time. Now, high rpms will place my transmission in jeopardy and make it the unknown factor.

What is the highest RPM someone has shifted our transmission at (fast/power shift)? I hope to run 8500rpms minimum, preferably 9k+ if I can wring out any power at all. Flat shift mode full throttle would be my goal. This again would bring up the positive aspects of a carbon clutch. BTW honda guys also use strain guages on the shifter for their flat shifting even with dog boxes to sense when to drop rpms on the motor instead of relying only on a clutch switch.

Imagine a strain gauge + modulated hydraulic clutch. DJ you want to do this! Strain gauge setups cost money but I think this stuff is great.
And maybe modify the shifter so it has a spring action pushing it towards 5/R to avoid 1-2-1 shifts like this shifter below.
http://www.t1racedevelopment.com/index.php/en/products/details/178/98/g-force-shifter-kits-&-accessories/clutch-/-drivetrain/shifter-kits/g-force-shifter-kit.html

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And another post I just found on H-T.


G-force is not so great after old man Lou retired and the gearset will not hold up to a 26" at all. Its good for small tire thats it.
Refering to their dog box being unable to handle 26's at all.

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http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3110419
This might be the authoritative modern thread on this issue as it might apply to us.
Miller is THE honda guy out there.


B series experience first.

ALBINS is the best in my experience worth every dollar.

PPG is also great, the only things I broke on the PPG was the ring and pinion.

Liberty has its place and is hit or miss, on small tire stuff it stays together fairly well. Hard people to deal with from time to time and alot of people have trouble getting parts in "crunch" times.

G-Force is horrible, everything breaks, the fit and finish is horrible. Nice people but their transmission sucks. Their parts are always readily avaialable which is nice but you seem to need them way to often.

K series stuff,

I only have experience with the PPG and frana. I havent seen any issues with the ppg boxes at all, great units.

Frana, well they are the gforce of the k series stuff

Albins seems to work great for SF but I have 0 experience.


I know this was directed to Miller, but I'm going to chime in.

I've used both Liberty and PPG. In that order too. lol

Liberty is a great bang for the buck solution, but like others have said part are tough to get.

PPG is very stout. I have one for my car and it's had a bunch of hits and a bunch of dyno time on it and it still looks great. Only problem I had is with the 4th gear dogs rounding and that was my own fault. I was using a stock SCHA instead of using a good one from SpeedFactory.

Now, the nice thing about the Albins is that there are more FD options and the dogs are replaceable. When you finally figure out how to setup a trans like this the replaceable dogs are a great option. I wish I went this route early on.

If you have $10k to spend I'd do it like this....
Albins gearset
Liberty billet case
SpeedFactory SCHA
New OEM forks
DSS driveline
and have it assembled by someone that knows what they are doing (James@Synchrotech)

Then here is a breakdown on the best Honda Dog Box out there from Speedfactory (local to me, just like the baddest DSM/Evo shop Englishracing).


Albins and PPG are the 2 best choices IMO, we wouldn't run anything else. They cost more, but you are paying for superior quality material, design, and manufacturing processes vs the US companies offerings.

I prefer Albins because of their unique design features and I feel they have the best material, heat treat, and shot peen process. That and they have been receptive to working with us on making design changes as we gather more data and learn what areas can be improved on.

The design features that set the Albins apart from the others is the use of removable/replaceable dogrings on 3/4 (which allows you to flip over the 3/4 slider and swap the 3/4 dogrings if you round the dogs on the power side, effectively giving you 2x the use out of those parts before needing to purchase new slider and dogrings), and the helical cut design which gives quiet operation, loads multiple teeth at once (rather than one tooth at a time like straight cut sets), and copes with shaft and case deflection/distortion loads better than straight cut designs.

James @ Synchrotech said it all regarding setup and maintanence. Most people seem to think a dogbox should never ever need any care or maintanence, and that's just not how it works. Different car/driver combos will have different experiences with everything, and a set that works ok on a 24.5" car might not hold up to a 26" setup. I think our 35+ low 8 second passes this year at 185-191mph in the Outlaw car speaks volumes about how good the Albins set really is.

[Vigo]

LOL @ people who apparently think dog boxes should never need any work. It's not a whole lot different than taking the synchro rings out a standard box and leaving everything else the same.. It's going to wear a LOT more.

[turboshad]

Liberty transmissions ARE the ones that Honda guys were inspecting every race (and faster guys were having to make repairs each race).....

From my research many of the Liberty/Honda failures could be attributed to the case. Obviously not all of them but like most internet stories there isn't much in the way of failure analysis publicized, just that it broke.



I don't see why we would worry about our input shaft being a solid piece since if we made an "improved" one when the stockers never fail, I don't see a failure coming.

Just the nature of it make the fabrication more expensive as you need to use a shaper for 3rd gear and a special hobb made to make the reverse gear. If it ever did break you would need to make the whole shaft again vs. just a gear or two.



What is the highest RPM someone has shifted our transmission at (fast/power shift)? I hope to run 8500rpms minimum, preferably 9k+ if I can wring out any power at all. Flat shift mode full throttle would be my goal. This again would bring up the positive aspects of a carbon clutch. BTW honda guys also use strain guages on the shifter for their flat shifting even with dog boxes to sense when to drop rpms on the motor instead of relying only on a clutch switch.

I was "flat shifting" at 8000 and with the modified synchros and it was more in then out but still not all shifts caught. Personally I'm done with synchros.


Imagine a strain gauge + modulated hydraulic clutch. DJ you want to do this! Strain gauge setups cost money but I think this stuff is great.

And maybe modify the shifter so it has a spring action pushing it towards 5/R to avoid 1-2-1 shifts like this shifter below.

I don't want to start getting into my plans b/c this is JTs thread. As I move forward I'll cover it in my own log but let's just say I sold my A568 last week. There will be no strain gauges and no chance of a 1-2-1 shift ever again. :thumbup:

It seems by my own research that Albins is a quality gear set but it is also quite a bit more as are PPG. It's always easy to talk about the best when it's someone else's money. I do like their replacable dogs in the Albins. The only sets I know currently available for the T850 is the Frana and Liberty. I don't know if PPG and Albins have been approached or not but of the two that are available I like Liberty's design much better then Frana. Frana has stories of success and failure and the Liberty hasn't been around long enough yet with only 3 that I know of being produced.

[Reaper1]

Strain gauges aren't that expensive. The challenge is to have the other components to work with it...usually some sort of amplifier and software.

Dog boxes don't necessarily need more work or wear quicker than a standard box. It depends on how they are used. Think about all the motorcycles, outboard engines, and outdrives there are out there in the motorcycle/boating world. ALL of your current outboards and most of the light-duty outdrives use dog-type engagement. They get serviced every 100 hours or so (if done correctly) and unless something catastrophic happens they last quite a long time. The trick to them is that you need to make sure they get into gear as quickly as possible, preferably without any torque being applied to the gearset.

Unless we are looking at completely custom gear ratios, I still see no reason to make a custom input shaft. If custom ratios are indeed the intent, then I agree that a "modular" type of set-up would be the way to go.

[Vigo]

The trick to them is that you need to make sure they get into gear as quickly as possible, preferably without any torque being applied to the gearset.

Yes, you either go back in time and drive them like we drove cars before synchronizers were invented, or you drive them hard and accept that they will need work on an almost CONSTANT basis compared to the 100, 200, 300,000 mile longevity of regular transmissions, even under 'hard' use. The only reason anybody wants dog clutch engagement on a modern car is for drag racing, and under that type of usage it will wear, and need work.

[Reaper1]

Yes, you either go back in time and drive them like we drove cars before synchronizers were invented, or you drive them hard and accept that they will need work on an almost CONSTANT basis compared to the 100, 200, 300,000 mile longevity of regular transmissions, even under 'hard' use. The only reason anybody wants dog clutch engagement on a modern car is for drag racing, and under that type of usage it will wear, and need work.

No, you simply have a spark cut enabled during a shift. Dog engagement transmissions are sued for all kinds of vehicles. I named off a few. The only *high maintenance* thing about them is that they need to have the fluid changed more often. Yes, this is to get metal shavings out of the fluid, but unless you see large chunks, there's no need to rip into it unless there is some other obvious problem.

I want dog clutch engagement because it is lighter, simpler, and can have larger load capacity than synchro engagement. Unless you REALLY screw up, grinding a gear is not a worry. It's also easier to adapt a sequential set-up to a dog engagement system.

Just wondering, do you ride a motorcycle at all? If so, you already know what I'm talking about. If not, read up on it and go talk with people that mess with it, and hold them in your hands if you can. It really is a good way to go for manual trannies.

[turbovanman²]

No, you simply have a spark cut enabled during a shift. Dog engagement transmissions are sued for all kinds of vehicles. I named off a few. The only *high maintenance* thing about them is that they need to have the fluid changed more often. Yes, this is to get metal shavings out of the fluid, but unless you see large chunks, there's no need to rip into it unless there is some other obvious problem.

I want dog clutch engagement because it is lighter, simpler, and can have larger load capacity than synchro engagement. Unless you REALLY screw up, grinding a gear is not a worry. It's also easier to adapt a sequential set-up to a dog engagement system.

Just wondering, do you ride a motorcycle at all? If so, you already know what I'm talking about. If not, read up on it and go talk with people that mess with it, and hold them in your hands if you can. It really is a good way to go for manual trannies.

All modern sport bikes have dog box's. The only time I hurt my trans is at Mission, where you are constantly rowing the gears so to speak from 1-2 due to its slow speed and technical nature. At higher speed tracks, my trans lasts forever. To shift, I just stand on the shifter-the linkage is converted GP style so push down to shift vs up for regular joe's, and just snap the throttle, it drops right into gear.

[Vigo]

Yes, this is to get metal shavings out of the fluid, but unless you see large chunks, there's no need to rip into it unless there is some other obvious problem.

Im not saying it will go to ---- in X amount of time, im saying that X amount of time is a tiny fraction of what it would be in a 'normal' street car transmission if you drive both in a way that doesn't break them. If you take a normal transmission that can last practically forever under normal use, and start driving it so hard that it develops problems in 5 miles, and then you replace it with a dog-clutch tranny that lasts 50 miles under the same condition, that does not make the dog-clutch transmission a long-lasting transmission in any OTHER context.. just that ONE. It doesn't mean it's a longer-wearing design in general, it is definitely NOT! Bike transmissions dont last as long as car transmissions either! They just last longer when you're driving like you're TRYING to break it. :p

Im not against dog boxes, my original point was just that i thought it was funny that people thought installing a dog box meant they would never have to work on their trans again when it takes everything that makes a normal transmission last forever, and throws it out the window. :p

[Reaper1]

All modern sport bikes have dog box's. The only time I hurt my trans is at Mission, where you are constantly rowing the gears so to speak from 1-2 due to its slow speed and technical nature. At higher speed tracks, my trans lasts forever. To shift, I just stand on the shifter-the linkage is converted GP style so push down to shift vs up for regular joe's, and just snap the throttle, it drops right into gear.

I only ever really used my clutch on my bike when I was starting from a dead stop, in traffic, or I knew that a botched downshift would be a bad thing. Other than that, I just blipped the throttle any time I wanted a different gear.


Im not saying it will go to ---- in X amount of time, im saying that X amount of time is a tiny fraction of what it would be in a 'normal' street car transmission if you drive both in a way that doesn't break them. If you take a normal transmission that can last practically forever under normal use, and start driving it so hard that it develops problems in 5 miles, and then you replace it with a dog-clutch tranny that lasts 50 miles under the same condition, that does not make the dog-clutch transmission a long-lasting transmission in any OTHER context.. just that ONE. It doesn't mean it's a longer-wearing design in general, it is definitely NOT! Bike transmissions dont last as long as car transmissions either! They just last longer when you're driving like you're TRYING to break it. :p

Im not against dog boxes, my original point was just that i thought it was funny that people thought installing a dog box meant they would never have to work on their trans again when it takes everything that makes a normal transmission last forever, and throws it out the window. :p

I didn't think you were against dog boxes. :) I also laugh at people who think performance parts means less work (usually it's the opposite). There was a video from a long time ago with some dude in the middle east with a Skyline that had a dog box in it. He did NOT know how to drive it! It made my spine crawl every time he tried to put it in gear! LOL

I think it would be an interesting study to know whether one or the other actually had a longer life in "normal" driving conditions.

[Vigo]

There was a video from a long time ago with some dude in the middle east with a Skyline that had a dog box in it. He did NOT know how to drive it! It made my spine crawl every time he tried to put it in gear! LOL

Oh man i remember that. I cringed for the whole video. :X

[BadAssPerformance]

Good discussion everyone :clap:

Update

Talked to DSS and they think the higher shock factor from the 26's is the main culprit. I tend to agree. Waiting for diagnosis from latest carnage.

Fresh 24.5's arrived today...

[Ondonti]

I would stay away from Liberty. I don't buy blaming the case since the Albins have survived worse on stock case. Supposedly because they are not straight cut etc. Again, if you want a dogbox that can only handle a small tire (Liberty), then the reasons for upgrading are getting lost.

Liberty never solved things for the Honda crowd over many years and with more customers then we could dream of. Also, they suck for buying replacement parts which is why people were even trying cheaper boxs so they could at least service their transmission every time they drove it.
G-Force apparently has a lower quality cheaper dog box that people use simply because they can get parts and not miss races.

Even Dog boxes require Strain gauges for shifting properly so :thumb: Unless you want to find out about Liberty's replacement parts service. Many dogbox problems are attributed to not running a strain guage or not using it properly. People without them tend to clutch shift to save their transmissions. Again, this means we lose the whole point of running a dogbox. They are running these transmissions because their stock transmissions have complete mechanial gear failures, not 100-200k miles of abuse or recent rebuild with old bearings problems. I believe liberty boxs also pop out of gear on decel because they don't have a certain needed design feature.

- - - Updated - - -

======================================

I just spoke with Joe Sirianni who I knew was reving his turbo 3.0 out to 8k rpms (no higher because of his mildish cams) and his story makes me doubt some people here, or their driving ability.

His a543 grinds 3rd at all times unless its "wot or super fast shifted"
BUT,
With a heavy Turbos Unleashed stage 2 6 puck sprung hub and no flatshift function on his megasquirt, he said he has never ever had a problem WOT shifting his garbage transmission at or near 8k. No slippage either.

I find this at Odds with a lot of BENCHRACING here. That or bad driving. I know all my bad shifts were my fault. I hope to at least try a 9000 rpm shift in the next couple of weeks if I get the hardened washers/shims I need. 3 puck solid with flatshift should work a little better then his combo but I don't have the driver mod. In a high powered setup I tend to not push the clutch in enough when doing a WOT or hard shift because my brain is scared to fully commit due to power levels where with stock n/a engine I could shift with no fear.

I thought the whole thing we were trying to fix was broken axles and this all seems to have gone offtrack and off facts. The axle problem seems to have been completely skipped. FWD axles are clearly something you have to treat with care even when built to the hilt.

[Reaper1]

It's sort of gone off track. The thread is about JT's build all together...including the transmission and axles. We started out trying to figure out how to make axles live, and somehow got on the track of gearsets and entire boxes...I think because it *may* be easier to source stronger axles and parts for said boxes.

LMK when you wanna tryt o break stuff....I'll be more than happy to lend a hand if I can :thumb: I can at least hold the camera! LOL

[BadAssPerformance]

For this ride, anything related to drivetrain durability is fair discussion as far as I'm concerned :thumb:

Update from DSS... will temper down a bit further on next set, hope to ship out today. Failure mode for outer CV was the cage (will confirm). Also sent pics of Eric's axles asking what the difference is.

Meeting up with VNTES tonight to get new slicks swapped onto Bogarts...

Regarding testing... anyone have access to a hardness tester and time to test hardness on some axle stubs? I might need another source if I cannot get this done locally.

[Ondonti]

If JT is getting near the same 60' on the 24.5' I would still enjoy seeing him up the power regardless of the desire to get loose converter automatic transmission E.T. to MPH ratios. Reeves certainly is not hurting by running staged boost.

I would like to thank one of my broken axles for giving me material to make a tool to turn my diff in the case

[22shelby]

M&H or Mickey Thompson?? heres another dumb a$$ 22shelby thought, what about keeping with the 26" but mabye changing to an ET Street?? slightly harder compound but not as much stick upon launch... 26x9.5 and there are plenty of guys out there (rwd ofcourse) that have gone well into the 9s and even 8s on these tires... plus would boast a bit more of the street car aspect.. ;) ever have any thought of that route?

[turboshad]

I would stay away from Liberty. I don't buy blaming the case since the Albins have survived worse on stock case. Supposedly because they are not straight cut etc. Again, if you want a dogbox that can only handle a small tire (Liberty), then the reasons for upgrading are getting lost.

Exactly, it seems the Honda case doesn't respond well to gear separating forces which are lessened with a helical cut gear set. I can find Liberty, G-force and PPG gear failures, all of which are straight cut. I haven't come across any Albins. I'll assume there is also a bit of how many have been purchased compared to the rest as well. PPG is very well respected an there stuff has still broken. Even with PPG gears many are running a Liberty billet case because the stock case just isn't strong enough. Pushing Honda power without a hand cuff, which adds to separation strength, seems to be unheard of. All this tells me the stock case is weak in that direction which will destroy any gear set in a heart beat. I'm not ready to discount Liberty just yet from problems on a completely different system.


Liberty never solved things for the Honda crowd over many years and with more customers then we could dream of. Also, they suck for buying replacement parts which is why people were even trying cheaper boxs so they could at least service their transmission every time they drove it.
G-Force apparently has a lower quality cheaper dog box that people use simply because they can get parts and not miss races.

I will agree they have a reputation for being slow in many communities, not just Honda.


Even Dog boxes require Strain gauges for shifting properly so :thumb: Unless you want to find out about Liberty's replacement parts service. Many dogbox problems are attributed to not running a strain guage or not using it properly. People without them tend to clutch shift to save their transmissions. Again, this means we lose the whole point of running a dogbox. They are running these transmissions because their stock transmissions have complete mechanial gear failures, not 100-200k miles of abuse or recent rebuild with old bearings problems. I believe liberty boxs also pop out of gear on decel because they don't have a certain needed design feature.

So if I develop a PLC controlled paddle shift sequential setup with active feedback I'm not doing it properly? Oh right, strain gauges are the only right way, and everyone that isn't using strain gauges is destroying their transmission. There is always more then 1,2,3 or 50 ways to skin a cat and get the same result. Strain gauges are one way but it isn't currently in my plans of the road I want to take. There are allot of people that don't use their brains when they drive. Anyone can buy parts but not as many can use them to their potential and actually find the limit of them without making mistakes which cause their demise.



I just spoke with Joe Sirianni ... With a heavy Turbos Unleashed stage 2 6 puck sprung hub and no flatshift function on his megasquirt, he said he has never ever had a problem WOT shifting his garbage transmission at or near 8k. No slippage either.

Show me a log of TPS>90% and will believe a WOT shift, not saying he didn't but I now only believe logs, not brains and memories. I thought I did to until I looked at a log and I still don't know if I've actually done it. As for missing shifts, the times I did miss a shift I was probably rushing the shift and the synchros. AKA the sychros can't consistently shift as fast as I want them to so it's time to move on.


I find this at Odds with a lot of BENCHRACING here.

I hope you include yourself in the term benchracing. I will have to until I get hands on experience with a dogbox which I don't yet have, and motorcycles don't count.


I thought the whole thing we were trying to fix was broken axles and this all seems to have gone offtrack and off facts. The axle problem seems to have been completely skipped. FWD axles are clearly something you have to treat with care even when built to the hilt.


LOL... hey, do you still have that link you set for the dogbox? post it up!

Well JT started it in his own thread and it seems to be a topic of interest.

[Vigo]

buy parts but not as many can use them to their potential and actually find the limit of them

I will have to until I get hands on experience with a dogbox which I don't yet have

Well, i dont think anyone has exactly used the stock trans to its potential and found the limit either, and if enough people give up on it, we will never have to find out! Hooray!

Reeves' in-car video sure showed some fairly slow shifting considering he went quicker than some people who want to try dogboxes based on not being able to shift fast enough. I know not everyone has the same priorities so that is not exactly a jab, just an observation. I'm sure if you were interested in incremental progress with incremental changes, you'd be doing it, and probably starting with a lighter clutch disk. ;) But that would only get you to the same thing that others have already proven out, so it may not offer much sense of innovation or accomplishment vs making bigger changes for bigger results.

[BadAssPerformance]

I think several of us have used the 175-224chp transaxles well beyond their designed duty level and they just keep taking a beating which kicksass, however, few of them are "stock" with LSD's or welded on intermediate shaft bearing races added to improve capability. ... and at higher HP levels, the fluid typically comes out with some metal in it. The cases are flexing. You may remember Reeves splitting the case in half?

The topic of dogboxes came up as a result of a desire to go to a larger axle diameter and the stock T850 being no better than our A568 IMO other than axle options. If it helps shift better, more reliably, bonus.

I have thought of another option to help parts live, but at this time I really don't want to take 300-400lbs out of my car yet...

Update: new 24.5's mounted, Thanks VNTES! :thumb:

[Ondonti]

Exactly, it seems the Honda case doesn't respond well to gear separating forces which are lessened with a helical cut gear set. I can find Liberty, G-force and PPG gear failures, all of which are straight cut. I haven't come across any Albins. I'll assume there is also a bit of how many have been purchased compared to the rest as well. PPG is very well respected an there stuff has still broken. Even with PPG gears many are running a Liberty billet case because the stock case just isn't strong enough. Pushing Honda power without a hand cuff, which adds to separation strength, seems to be unheard of. All this tells me the stock case is weak in that direction which will destroy any gear set in a heart beat. I'm not ready to discount Liberty just yet from problems on a completely different system.



I will agree they have a reputation for being slow in many communities, not just Honda.



So if I develop a PLC controlled paddle shift sequential setup with active feedback I'm not doing it properly? Oh right, strain gauges are the only right way, and everyone that isn't using strain gauges is destroying their transmission. There is always more then 1,2,3 or 50 ways to skin a cat and get the same result. Strain gauges are one way but it isn't currently in my plans of the road I want to take. There are allot of people that don't use their brains when they drive. Anyone can buy parts but not as many can use them to their potential and actually find the limit of them without making mistakes which cause their demise.




Show me a log of TPS>90% and will believe a WOT shift, not saying he didn't but I now only believe logs, not brains and memories. I thought I did to until I looked at a log and I still don't know if I've actually done it. As for missing shifts, the times I did miss a shift I was probably rushing the shift and the synchros. AKA the sychros can't consistently shift as fast as I want them to so it's time to move on.



I hope you include yourself in the term benchracing. I will have to until I get hands on experience with a dogbox which I don't yet have, and motorcycles don't count.





Well JT started it in his own thread and it seems to be a topic of interest.

I don't think I need to question Joe's shifting habits. He owns the car for the purpose of trying to see how much abuse it will take and doesn't try to advertise "hey look what I did" so there is no reason to lie. I contacted him simply because I know how high he is reving. He didn't know people had any concerns. He knows what lockout feels like in mitsubishi transmissions from REAL inability to even lift shift above only 6k for some transmissions and he has never felt anything like that in his junk a543 or even thought about it. T850 has the same shifting problems until they go twin disc.
All I see are bad shifts caused by driving habits. Take a datalog of that. I thought Reaper1 would miss a gear in my car driving it for the first time and he had no problems even with my clutch adjusted improperly and a weird shifter setup. I have muffed quite a WOT shifts when doing roll racing test passes. Everything from the clutch timing to the shifter. Eliminating that would be great but it doesn't constitute "pushing things to their limits." I know some manly men here say they have never missed a gear in their life. I simply don't drive one clutch setup enough compared to another and my muscle habits are never set in stone.

Benchracing would be all the claims of the things our transmission can't do based on what basically amounts to subjective personal feelings. Benchracing that is completely wrong based on real world results. I do fear my own ability to shift a transmission so I don't see myself failing being the doom of a transmissions potential.

Sequential shifting is illegal in most racing classes that Honda's participate in. I don't know that I really like making things illegal over "cost/fake streetcar" concerns since teams always find ways to make huge investments into stockish items to get unfair advantages. Some of that racing should really include being forced to use certain items that are unmodified. The transmission thing is kinda lame. Anyone can make power but not everyone has a transmission that works for racing.

---------
I was mentioning to Adam that though I hate daily clutch function with fidanza flywheels that are made for us, it would probably help save some axles. When I had an aluminum flywheel I at least got to make a few passes on an axle with my terrible driving habits. It was probably bandaiding my garbage driving. I have never moved off the starting line with an OEM flywheel. I personally can't run a light flywheel in order to preserve a stock cast crankshaft and unbalanced internals. If the 4 cylinders love it then I would try it. I am kinda assuming that JT's flywheel was light weight though since people tend to use very exotic flywheels with custom multiple disc clutches..... I still see no harm in slipping the clutch out of a bog.

[turboshad]

I think I'm starting to realize my confusion on this subject.

JT, congratulations on the purchase of your new Honda!!! And here this whole time I thought we were still talking about your Dodge Shelby Z with the A543......or did it have an A568, I can't remember. Boy do I feel like an idiot.


Benchracing would be all the claims of the things our transmission can't do based on what basically amounts to subjective personal feelings. Benchracing that is completely wrong based on real world results.

You are totally right, my opinions of the A568s shifting abilities has nothing to do with my real world results and in reality I am just a bad operator which was demonstrated by my abilities to pull off a 1-2-1 shift. Heck I never even tried modifying it to shift to my liking. If I did I wonder what I would have tried to do.....hmmmm. I must also agree that all your "claims of the things other transmission options will or won't do" come from your vast hands on experience with them and don't at all come from your "subjective personal feelings" and hours spent on the interweb reading Honda forums (which I won't disagree have good information to help us Dodge guys make some decisions). Hence why in no way are you one of the biggest benchracers on this forum.

I'm going to go do some bench face palming.

46206

[Vigo]

You may remember Reeves splitting the case in half?

I have two cases that look like that.. and not from power. I should probably go look at his pics again but honestly these k-car manual transmissions are the most case-cracking prone transmissions i personally know about so i would need a lot of supporting evidence before i believed that engine power did anything more than accelerate the progress of a crack that was started by something else.

But, i believe you about the case flexing to some extent. So, how is it flexing? I haven't seen anything on this forum about strengthening the case of the later-style trannies like 568. If we knew which way it was flexing, there might be a way to brace it, and that way is probably a lot cheaper and easier than a custom racing box. :P I told Ondonti a while back when discussing these trannies, that i would put our stock gearsets in a totally custom case before i bothered putting aftermarket gearsets in ANY case because if you're not stripping the teeth off 1st and 4th with sheer power (the gears most well-supported by the case) than everything else is probably a function of case strength.


If I did I wonder what I would have tried to do.....hmmmm.

Are you still running a sprung 4 puck? Just asking. ;) It's pretty obvious where most of the synchros' work comes from and there are several fast people in this community who have followed that to its logical conclusion using both $100 and $1000+ setups. Pick your poison, except in this case poison = success.

[turboshad]

I'm with you Vigo that the gear set in the A568 is very strong and as a whole off the factory floor probably stronger then the T850. Heck I made mine weaker and it still took a beating. The apeal in this thread of the T850 came with the discussion of the larger output spline which tied into the axle discussion. There is also appeal in the fact that you can still get parts for them, mainly bearings. If you think it's hard to find A568 parts in the US, try living in Canada. Then the topic moved to dogboxes but not at all because of the gear strength. I had all intentions of faceplating my A568 for that very reason. Bottom line is I don't think anyone can argue the A568 gear set is tough as nails.

The case breakages I've seen that look like they happened from high power/fatigue make me think the end plate is flexing causing gear separation. Another cause has been the bearing racing chewing up the end of the bore which will surely develop cracks and lead to failure. I was also in the process of designing steal end plate to help solidify that end f things but that probably won't happen now.

^^^ I dropped the sprung hub years ago and switched to a solid. I have also removed half the synchro teeth from the 3-4 set which was a huge improvement but still not enough for myself. I can't speak for others on the topic. The only thing I didn't put in was an aluminum flywheel as I have mixed feelings on them and their ability to stand the test. The steel one I was using was lightened quite a bit.

[Vigo]

I think we're on the same page on a lot of the issues here, then.

I think dog boxes are kind of a straw man to be honest, given the cost and the number of unexplored options regarding the stock trans. For example, not that this is all totally figured out yet, but what about a 568 with some case mods, a carbon carbon or feramic unsprung 3 puck with a light flywheel and a controlled clutch release, a t850 diff carrier modified to fit in a 568 case to use the larger t850 axle ends, and then an as-yet unknown improvement to the outer CV cage? Hell, if crashboxing 3 and 4 helped, throw that in too (i still think disc weight is the larger issue)! That's a lot of improvement to a tranny that has already gone 10.01 or something like that, that noone has yet put together!

Seems to me there is a lot of life left in this basic design before we start talking about big-money dog boxes that throw street miles out the window and require you to take the trans out more than the one we already have!

[Reaper1]

I agree that case flex is probably a large factor in some of the failures we have seen. I though Reeves determined that he had a bearing lock up and that is what caused the mass destruction we saw? However, I can easily deduce that the bearing may have been loaded unevenly due to case flex and the whole thing compounded.

I've been thinking of different ways to brace and reinforce our stock tranny cases. I've thought of welding on straps to the outside of the case, making an external "cage/exoskeleton", and using plates that prevent twisting of one end of the case relative to the other. The problem with welding is that it could mess up critical machine tolerances for bearings and such and it could mess up any heat treatment the case might have had from the factory. The cage idea would take up some room that I'm betting more than one person would have a hard time giving up. The plates would work for the twisting, but it might be a race-car-only thing as the vibration that would result would be teeth rattling.

So, we also have the options of having the cases peened, chryogenically treated, or heat treated.

What any of these ideas would gain over stock is questionable and could really only be tested by failing the cases with the modifications. I'm not sure basically trashing that many cases would be worth it in the end.

[BadAssPerformance]

Sequential shifting is illegal in most racing classes that Honda's participate in.

So they cannot run automatic trans'?


I am kinda assuming that JT's flywheel was light weight though

No assumptions needed, I have always shared what I've done. I have an off he shelf ACT twin disk for SRT-4. The clutch only comes with a flywheel and it is not only a light flywheel, with its spoked design it also has a very low "I" ... pretty much looks like this:

46208


I am just a bad operator which was demonstrated by my abilities to pull off a 1-2-1 shift.

Now THAT takes skill! ;)


I have two cases that look like that.. and not from power. I should probably go look at his pics again but honestly these k-car manual transmissions are the most case-cracking prone transmissions i personally know about so i would need a lot of supporting evidence before i believed that engine power did anything more than accelerate the progress of a crack that was started by something else.

Maybe you haven't looked at enough Honda cases, or so I hear. I have only seen our cases split in half from power/abuse combo, not from a DD. *knock on wood* I haven't cracked one


But, i believe you about the case flexing to some extent. So, how is it flexing? I haven't seen anything on this forum about strengthening the case of the later-style trannies like 568.

I thought it was in Reeves' thread, but maybe there was more discussion IRL than online. Discussions about adding a full CM backup plate to the A568 like the A555 has, anything to limit the axial shaft migration and case twist.


If we knew which way it was flexing, there might be a way to brace it, and that way is probably a lot cheaper and easier than a custom racing box. :P

Think bout it, helical gears, counter spinning shafts... radial forces, axial forces... OK, now that the free body diagram is in your head.. think about how the forces and moments make it twist. The extent of twisting would need to be analyzed to actually determine where it breaks... Since it sounds like strain gauges grow on trees, if someone strain gauges a case up I'll toss it in and go abuse it so we can learn :nod:

Remember one point of the racing box was larger spline axles... which looking into it I think would be fairly pricey to modify an A568 to do that


i would put our stock gearsets in a totally custom case before i bothered putting aftermarket gearsets in ANY case because if you're not stripping the teeth off 1st and 4th with sheer power (the gears most well-supported by the case) than everything else is probably a function of case strength.

My last A568 failure was the large teeth coming off the ring and pinion, but I think one of the pinion teeth was chipped since it was in there... in an A520 in my T2 Shadow, the teeth just fell off one night not even abusing it... but previously they did have over 100 5000+rpm launches ;)


Are you still running a sprung 4 puck? Just asking. ;)

I've run many clutches in different cars, but in the Z behind the 2.4L I've run ACT 6-puck sprung, ACT 6-puck solid and ACT twin disk (pictured above)

I haven't really tried to WOT shift it cuz I'm so ecstatic after it makes it more than a foot down the track I forget to, LOL


I agree that case flex is probably a large factor in some of the failures we have seen. I though Reeves determined that he had a bearing lock up and that is what caused the mass destruction we saw? However, I can easily deduce that the bearing may have been loaded unevenly due to case flex and the whole thing compounded.

The 3.50:1 gear set he ran had fine teeth... best guess is the teeth simple fell off and one ground between the gears put enough side load on shafts to split the case.


I've been thinking of different ways to brace and reinforce our stock tranny cases. I've thought of welding on straps to the outside of the case, making an external "cage/exoskeleton", and using plates that prevent twisting of one end of the case relative to the other. The problem with welding is that it could mess up critical machine tolerances for bearings and such and it could mess up any heat treatment the case might have had from the factory. The cage idea would take up some room that I'm betting more than one person would have a hard time giving up. The plates would work for the twisting, but it might be a race-car-only thing as the vibration that would result would be teeth rattling.

So, we also have the options of having the cases peened, chryogenically treated, or heat treated.

What any of these ideas would gain over stock is questionable and could really only be tested by failing the cases with the modifications. I'm not sure basically trashing that many cases would be worth it in the end.

Exactly... lots of things that could be developed to make the case stronger, but the cost to develop probably outweighs actually doing it. I really can;t think it woudl be worth going beyond adding better support plates and running better bearings or straight cut gears to better deal with axial shaft loading

[Vigo]

One of the things i mentioned to Brent at one point is that for a race car that doesn't NEED 5th gear, you could remove those gears and and add more bearings and another support plate to that area. I dont know how much it would do for the other end of the case. 5th gear is pretty useless. In fact, i calculated out (paging Reaper1..) that 4th gear on a 3.05 gearset would go over 200 mph with a pretty normal-size tire... A stock 568 will go about 145 @ 7000 rpm in 4th on 24.5s, or 157 if you change it to 3.50 fd.

I dont think the pinion-to-ring gear failures have ever been PRIMARILY a case strength thing. I think it's almost always been a case of foreign objects getting munched by the teeth, even if they are other teeth off the same gears.. hahah Pinion bearing failure might be another contributor if it lets the gears get far enough out of whack during a big load.

[BadAssPerformance]

Reeves has been mulling over removing 5th for a while, kinda why he tried the 3.05's...

I think the case flex allows the gears/shafts to move axially which then affects the gear tooth face loading. And with helical gears and one shaft going one way with the other going the other, and gear shift they unload and load... like a slide hammer? hmmmm

In my last A568 I had a mint bearing back up plate I swapped in and with only a couple passes it was hammered by both bearings and looked like the one that was in there for many passes before. Problem is the input shaft is on taper bearings and the intermediate shaft is on rollers. This is for mass production toleranceing and lets the speed gears float on the input shaft and the pinion to float on the ring gear. Ideally all the gears would be fixed at their proper locations. With high HP end plate flexing they move quite a bit... and the teeth fatigue

[Vigo]

Well, if you got rid of 5th and were willing to do some work i can see making some tapered roller bearings work at that end of the trans too, or maybe a thrust roller bearing (torrington type thing) for the pinion shaft to control its lateral movement.

[turboshad]

Exactly... lots of things that could be developed to make the case stronger, but the cost to develop probably outweighs actually doing it. I really can;t think it woudl be worth going beyond adding better support plates and running better bearings or straight cut gears to better deal with axial shaft loading

This about sums up my thoughts. Many things mentioned can be done but I haven't even had time to touch my car since October. Most of those mods will take quite a bit of time and money. Add replacement bearings and case availability growing scarcer by the day (especially in Canada) and you start to see why I sold my A568 to take on a new path of adventure.

[Ondonti]

3000gt crown both uses billet, cast and exoskeleton braces on transfer cases. Billet endcases and midcases. They weld braces around their shafts in the bellhousing to keep the case happy. Some of those welded cases are unhappy when not carefully done. Nissan guys weld their cases in SR20 FWD's.
Even our a413 guys weld cases and go to pretty extreme lengths to get their transmissions to be happy while the manual crowd seems to say...no thanks. People here should really see how far Red Sled has gone into 31TE mods, especially recently. I find the money spent there to be crazy but at the same time many people can benefit. I believe he is forced by rule to use a stock style transmission in order to use an automatic and those "lame" rules benefit others just like Frenchie being forced to use a stock transmission was good for the common man.

SBCs are still in catalogs and are not going away anytime soon. I can't understand the idea of throwing everything away because it is not good enough and not simply going for the best. Either I want a challenge or I want a hole in one.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of 5th gear unless I had a custom pinion shaft and ring gear that was more like the 3.05 for the older transmissions. That would probably make it easier to incorporate some improvements in keeping the shaft where it needs to be and I would not have a problem spending on that because I would love to only use 1-2-3 in the 1/4.

I will always support and applaud JT or anyone else pushing stock style parts. This is not only rewarding for individuals who find improvements but it keeps the entire platform going. Every platform I have seen that keeps going strong has people improving things that apply to the masses. I know easy ways to make ridiculous power in our cars with a simple engine swap but that alienates the average person that starts with a similar car. I don't want to be the one eyed king. That or I have no faith in our transmissions with a real motor attached.

JT, did you post up a picture of your backup plate damage? The transmission I have apart in the garage won't have any power related damage but its funner to compare real parts then FSM pictures. Doing all the shimming on it bothers me that the transfershaft just kinda chills. Welded the sleeve onto this shaft even though it was not moving like my other one.
Is the plate really bending/flexing or is it as simple as the fasteners or where the fasteners insert being the problem?
-----
I messed around with the transmission outside and if someone has not mentioned it before, after looking at how the transmission holds things together, I think an easy fix I would do is take a second bearing plate, bore out the holes to avoid 4th gear and the bearing, add some threads, and install it on the opposite side of the bearing support plate. Then I would use a better fastener if needed and clamp this thing much tighter. I know for 3.0 2 bolt mains I found the simplest girdle flex fix to be the best, higher quality DSM headbolts that reach 3-4 threads deeper into the block and not fretting about line honing when I torqued things to 90ft/lb instead of 60.

I think it would be fun to find ways to improve the stock front plate without necessarily even starting over. Welding trusses onto it and finding ways to tie that in with what I would equate to a case extension that would sit the cover out a little farther but have some anchor points for maybe 4 braces that tie into the bellhousing bolts etc. I would try to design this to avoid the need for precision and rely on applying reasonable torque to something that is adjustable. Something as simple as straps torqued down onto long studs that replace the bolts in question. I know my engine block has strength to share in those locations. Heck that system could be done without any internal mods, just steel layer on top of the case cover with some anchor points. Those bellhousing shields many of us should be running could also play along and make things easier.
I have seen some crazy stuff done to Chevy 7.5" 10 bolt diff's where other people just swap in a 9" or a 12 bolt. Weld the axle tubes. Replace crush washer with solid. preload diff cover. Strap type setup that prevents the axle tubes from deflecting. Lower ratio gears. C clip eliminators. I own one and the concepts of improving that tiny diff seems satisfying. Even the simple preload covers they have give me ideas about improving that bearing plate so it can better support the aluminum bearing support plate.

For me, seeing this problems actually makes me excited (borderline twitterpated) after I look at some of the options to improve things. I would hate to have to suffer the problems that every other person has suffered transmission wise because I never knew about them. I believe in the principle of learning history even if humans in general seem terrible at applying lessons from the past. I love that there are other people out there pushing things because it can keep more of us out of trouble and push fixes faster. It would be tough to be a one man R&D machine for a whole platform. I wish some other people with higher power cars would go out and break some stuff (Lengel etc). I know of JT and MockGLHS and myself who have pushed pinion sleeves off and if it was just me I would be lost. My daily driver is simply an octane change away from causing the same damage and I want to do a lot worse things to transmissions then that :D

[BadAssPerformance]

Top picture is of the nice used one that went in. Bottom pic is of the abused one. Next time the trans was opened the top one looked like the bottom one.

46213

[BadAssPerformance]

I think it would be fun to find ways to improve the stock front plate without necessarily even starting over. Welding trusses onto it and finding ways to tie that in with what I would equate to a case extension that would sit the cover out a little farther but have some anchor points for maybe 4 braces that tie into the bellhousing bolts etc. I would try to design this to avoid the need for precision and rely on applying reasonable torque to something that is adjustable. Something as simple as straps torqued down onto long studs that replace the bolts in question. I know my engine block has strength to share in those locations. Heck that system could be done without any internal mods, just steel layer on top of the case cover with some anchor points.

Yeah there is something to strengthening the bearing plate. I was wondering how much weld I could fill the voids in and not warp it?


Those bellhousing shields many of us should be running could also play along and make things easier.

Having Reeves' nut protector on made me wonder if it actually strengthened that end of the trans, but I think since it is mostly external, probably not much. I think it does not help the far end of the trans in any way.


For me, seeing this problems actually makes me excited (borderline twitterpated) after I look at some of the options to improve things. I would hate to have to suffer the problems that every other person has suffered transmission wise because I never knew about them. I believe in the principle of learning history even if humans in general seem terrible at applying lessons from the past. I love that there are other people out there pushing things because it can keep more of us out of trouble and push fixes faster. It would be tough to be a one man R&D machine for a whole platform. I wish some other people with higher power cars would go out and break some stuff (Lengel etc). I know of JT and MockGLHS and myself who have pushed pinion sleeves off and if it was just me I would be lost. My daily driver is simply an octane change away from causing the same damage and I want to do a lot worse things to transmissions then that :D

LOL, yeah, I like the fabrication/engineering side too and community sharing is very helpful so we all don't have to R&D it ourselves :nod:

For the pinion bearing walk... Add DJ and Tommy to that list, maybe Pat and others too? We caught Tommy's just in time as it started to walk off last fall. Had the trans apart to weld a hole in the case from a diff pin coming out :eek:

- - - Updated - - -

Update: Car is ready to go to Mopar Nationals this weekend...

[Pat]

I haven't had the pinion bearing walk issue yet. Last fall, I took the trans apart that served duty in both the black Shadow and the Aries and there was no sign of pinion walk at all. With the abuse that trans took and how I had driven it, I was actually quite surprised it was OK.

[turboshad]

I had one start to walk but didn't make it far when I switched FDs. The next made it far enough to cut out the slinger and just start eating the case when I went for my third FD. The last one I used green bearing retaining compound and when I took it apart this spring it was right where it should be. I don't know if that means it worked or if I just didn't have enough miles but the green stuff holds pretty good.

http://www.useloctite.com/filephotos/documents/Retaining_Solutions_Guide.pdf

[BadAssPerformance]

Hmmm.. I used green threadlocker but maybe it was different? Only lasted 2 passes :(

Since then, been using TIG glue :thumb:

Maybe a tighter (axially) shaft with less walk would help this too

[turboshad]

MY theory on the matter is that with high torque input there is obviously some relatively high spreading forces which put bearing load on the sleeve. With the helical set this also brings decently high axial forces which are flexing the bearing plate at the other end. So high bearing loads with axial movement repeated a whole bunch of times starts to walk the race off.

That was a long way of saying I agree that a stiffer bearing retainer would help the issue. My gut tells me it's the aluminum part flexing more than the steel part. Probably also worth a quick FEA study when I get a chance.

[BadAssPerformance]

I think that sums it up nicely.

The question is if bearing support plate flexing is all of it or is the "float" of the rear bearing held in by a snap ring allowing the shaft to "float"? A tapered roller on both ends like the input shaft would be better...

[135sohc]

plate flexing and the ball bearing float. Even brand new those bearings have some side-side slop, plus the slop of sitting in the aluminum bulkhead. It all adds up to be 'alot' when were talking in thousands of an inch, multiplied by all the force its trying to resist.

[BadAssPerformance]

Exactly...

[ForzaV12]

Update on 600 lb/in springs on the street... Cruised to the "Fall Color" car show yesterday and it rode well, even over some bumps. I did turn the front to "full soft" before the crusie tho. Some folks might not like it, but I prefer to feel the road. :thumb: .... and this REALLY makes me want to start on the next project, road race Shadow/CSX :)

34070


Just working my way through this thread, great looking car and engine!!!

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks Forza!

It is starting to show its age but still looks good in pics ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Made 4 runs at the Nats on the new 24.5's.

Run 1 Friday time run - Car died puling to line, took forever to restart??? got it going, went 10.90@132.23 spinning through 2nd

Adjusted cam sensor depth

Run 2 Sat Time run 1 - 10.77@134.82 spinning 1&2, broke up going thru lights

Adjusted cam sensor depth

Run 3 Sat Time run 2 - 11.34@132.02 spinning 1, miss 2nd, broke up going thru lights

Adjusted cam sensor depth

Run 4 Sat Round 1 - missed the call, saw cars pulling up to staging, ran over 1/4 mile back to car (I'm NOT a runner) out of breath, got to lanes, ALMOST had abye, but one guy was lurking at the back of th elanes so I raced him... left softer and actually bogged off line and then couldnt catch up, didnt matter, he cut a 0.010 light to my 0.131... tried to catch him but he had me covered well and lifted.... car cut out at ~6500 in 3 and ~6500 in 4th... Hmmm... interesting
11.36@133

...oh well, gotta try to figure out 6500 rpm cutout and tune for 93?

[cordes]

That's great JT. A day without breaking is a day of success, especially with the luck you've been having lately.

[Pat]

Spinning is better than breaking! Sounds like the ticket for drag week.

[Vigo]

Heh, yep, nice update but all i got was "no broken axles". :)

[Aries_Turbo]

Cool. No axle breakage.

I wonder why the setup has so many issues with cam and crank sensors though. Are you sure it's that rather than something else ignition related. Put a scope on the sensor inputs on the Ecu?

[Reaper1]

It's almost like it's a "dirty" signal. Are the wires going to those sensors shielded?

[Reeves]

Glad to hear no broken axles! How was the track prep?

Also, do you plan to run strictly 93 octane at Drag Week, or some sort of mix of something?

I just found out last night that I CAN get E85 kinda near my work. It's got me thinking.....


I had one start to walk but didn't make it far when I switched FDs. The next made it far enough to cut out the slinger and just start eating the case when I went for my third FD. The last one I used green bearing retaining compound and when I took it apart this spring it was right where it should be. I don't know if that means it worked or if I just didn't have enough miles but the green stuff holds pretty good.

http://www.useloctite.com/filephotos/documents/Retaining_Solutions_Guide.pdf

We use the green stuff a lot on bearings at work. Starts out a slip fit, and when the sh*t dries and you realize you put the bearing in backwards, you HAVE to press it out.

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks guys, yep, no broken axles is good. It was still trying to rip the tires off it too LOL


Cool. No axle breakage.

I wonder why the setup has so many issues with cam and crank sensors though. Are you sure it's that rather than something else ignition related. Put a scope on the sensor inputs on the Ecu?


It's almost like it's a "dirty" signal. Are the wires going to those sensors shielded?

At SDAC it was breaking up badly (anyone who saw the RWD/FWD Shelby Z race heard the twin popcorn machines :( ) and I attributed it to oil on the cam sensor cuz getting the cam sensor out of the oil seemed to fix the problem. My fix *may* be an issue as I'm not sure how the cam sensor likes to read thru a part of a Pibb Xrtra can? ;) The new issue (which I may have had before) is more of a cut-out than a break up. full throttle, then a brief pause, then full throttle again no issues. It wasn't until last weekend that I figured it to be consistent at ~6500 in 3 and 4.

Next step, I want to see if it will do it free-revving or if it is only under load? I like the idea to scope it but don't have one. With the FAST Classic, it is somewhat ghetto as it actually has to go thru an eDist box to convert the signal between the ECU and the coils. I might need to double check the trigger angle between the crank TDC and trigger vs. the cam sync to see if it is overlapping at 6500rpm / 29psi timing or something.. not sure


Glad to hear no broken axles! How was the track prep?

Also, do you plan to run strictly 93 octane at Drag Week, or some sort of mix of something?

I just found out last night that I CAN get E85 kinda near my work. It's got me thinking.....

Track was prepped pretty well, I actually hooked/bogged bad on the last run.

Not sure, but was thinking straight 93... What's the allowable slow time for the class?

[Aries_Turbo]

At SDAC it was breaking up badly (anyone who saw the RWD/FWD Shelby Z race heard the twin popcorn machines :( ) and I attributed it to oil on the cam sensor cuz getting the cam sensor out of the oil seemed to fix the problem. My fix *may* be an issue as I'm not sure how the cam sensor likes to read thru a part of a Pibb Xrtra can? ;) The new issue (which I may have had before) is more of a cut-out than a break up. full throttle, then a brief pause, then full throttle again no issues. It wasn't until last weekend that I figured it to be consistent at ~6500 in 3 and 4.

Next step, I want to see if it will do it free-revving or if it is only under load? I like the idea to scope it but don't have one. With the FAST Classic, it is somewhat ghetto as it actually has to go thru an eDist box to convert the signal between the ECU and the coils. I might need to double check the trigger angle between the crank TDC and trigger vs. the cam sync to see if it is overlapping at 6500rpm / 29psi timing or something.. not sure

pocket scope

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8-2Msps-ARM-DSO-201-NANO-DIGITAL-MINI-OSCILLOSCOPE-/250814740946?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item3a65b939d2

id be tempted to swap over to megasquirt but your setup does run super well when its not missing from whatever the issue is.

Brian

[cordes]

Thanks guys, yep, no broken axles is good. It was still trying to rip the tires off it too LOL





At SDAC it was breaking up badly (anyone who saw the RWD/FWD Shelby Z race heard the twin popcorn machines :( ) and I attributed it to oil on the cam sensor cuz getting the cam sensor out of the oil seemed to fix the problem. My fix *may* be an issue as I'm not sure how the cam sensor likes to read thru a part of a Pibb Xrtra can? ;) The new issue (which I may have had before) is more of a cut-out than a break up. full throttle, then a brief pause, then full throttle again no issues. It wasn't until last weekend that I figured it to be consistent at ~6500 in 3 and 4.

Next step, I want to see if it will do it free-revving or if it is only under load? I like the idea to scope it but don't have one. With the FAST Classic, it is somewhat ghetto as it actually has to go thru an eDist box to convert the signal between the ECU and the coils. I might need to double check the trigger angle between the crank TDC and trigger vs. the cam sync to see if it is overlapping at 6500rpm / 29psi timing or something.. not sure



Track was prepped pretty well, I actually hooked/bogged bad on the last run.

Not sure, but was thinking straight 93... What's the allowable slow time for the class?

Angles nose toward the sky as high a humanly possible...

You don't own a scope?


pocket scope

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-8-2Msps-ARM-DSO-201-NANO-DIGITAL-MINI-OSCILLOSCOPE-/250814740946?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item3a65b939d2

id be tempted to swap over to megasquirt but your setup does run super well when its not missing from whatever the issue is.

Brian

I like the four channel job I have. Although I think I'm going to pony up the cash for a decent used bench top model. My quad 4 is beyond laborious to set up due to the world's most unintuitive menu and buttons.

[bakes]

I'starting to think it time to book some dyno time, not to go looking for top power but to get this miss nailed down i know it might sound like $$$ but really when you put all the driving time to the track and test and tune not to find it starts to add up . time to nick it in the ---

[c2xejk]

Not sure, but was thinking straight 93... What's the allowable slow time for the class?

10.80 is the quickest you can run in daily driver.

One change to be aware of for this year, in the case of a rain out, the DD winner will be decided by the most consistent of the quick 32. In the past it had been the fastest...

[contraption22]

I'starting to think it time to book some dyno time, not to go looking for top power but to get this miss nailed down i know it might sound like $$$ but really when you put all the driving time to the track and test and tune not to find it starts to add up . time to nick it in the ---


It's hard to duplicate real world conditions on a dyno. He's probably better off doing street testing.

[c2xejk]

If the miss is happening under high load, that may be tough to duplicate on the street with street tires.

As for duplicating real world conditions, some of this depends on dyno type... The weighted wheel type, true. For one that can be electronically controlled (ie hold a load/rpm point) you should be able to zoom in on the operating point that causes the problem.

[Aries_Turbo]

just ride the brakes. you can pretty much stall the engine on a good set of brakes creating all the load you need.

[bakes]

The load type dyno is the safetest way to get it to do it and be under the hood probing ciruits and stuff

[Reaper1]

just ride the brakes. you can pretty much stall the engine on a good set of brakes creating all the load you need.

+1 :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

Update...

I feel kinda weird, first time the Z has had anything less than 100 octane in it since the 90's!

Completed:
-New programmable fuel level guage installed
-cell topped off with 93 octane :eek:
-cig lighter sockets installed

Still need to
-pull out boost controller so it only runs 15psi
-update cal for 93 (thanks for the info DJ!)
-get some street miles on it
-go make a pass or two on 93 (cost less to blow it up close to home)
-wire up trailer wiring
-determine how much crap I need to pack

[Reeves]

Update...

I feel kinda weird, first time the Z has had anything less than 100 octane in it since the 90's!

Completed:
-New programmable fuel level guage installed
-cell topped off with 93 octane :eek:
-cig lighter sockets installed

Still need to
-pull out boost controller so it only runs 15psi
-update cal for 93 (thanks for the info DJ!)
-get some street miles on it
-go make a pass or two on 93 (cost less to blow it up close to home)
-wire up trailer wiring
-determine how much crap I need to pack

Your list sounds familiar. LOL.
My fuel level sending unit decided to get stuck again a few weeks ago. I took it apart (this is the third time I believe), and the little magnet had wiggled out of the foam enough to where it was rubbing the circuit board and got stuck in one spot. JB Weld works great. Checked that off the list.
I run 93 most of the time. I only put race fuel in for the track. But I never generally get on it that much on the street (BFGoodrich Drag Radials still spin at 100+mph). I did quite a bit of tuning with 15 to 20 psi on the street this past weekend with about an extra 400 lbs in the car. At close to 20psi boost with 8* base timing, no knock. With 12* base timing, got a tad of knock. Added a single bottle of Lucas Octane Booster to the tank (probably about 5 gallons of fuel in the tank) and knock almost completely disappeared. I got on Amazon and ordered a case of 12 bottles. Also, www.newegg.com shows a case of 12 for $9.95......if anyone is brave enough to see what they get and order it. It says case of 12 Lucas Octane Booster.
I also need to wire up the car for the trailer still.
Keep me posted on your progress!

[BadAssPerformance]

Went for a drive tonight to calibrate the speedo and see how it likes the 93 octane pisswater... heard a bearing noise in any gear over 40mph... trans is apart, rear intermediate shaft bearing cracked... hope that's it... found a new 4348270 (black seal) in the trans parts pile, so hope they are as good as the blue seal ones that came in them...

will post pictures later, the 3-4 bronze pads had some wear on them (only 3rd gear side) too, not sure if that's from bearing or what...

[Ondonti]

How much pressure did you have in your tires? One thing about our oem stuff is that with a 5 speed you can't get much for traction control in 1st and 2nd gears. People competitively racing 24.5" tires to save from breaking on 26's are trying to put down every bit of power they can. You are only 0.19 off your best 26" tire pass with an engine running poorly? I think that seems pretty good and I bet a little less power in 1st and 2nd might have you caught right up, plus if your engine was running well the 24.5's should perform better in 3rd and 4th gear. I don't know what 26's feel like but even with less power 24.5's were spinning for me in 2nd but it was not an out of control spin that slows you down. It was that lovely tire tearing sound :D


MY theory on the matter is that with high torque input there is obviously some relatively high spreading forces which put bearing load on the sleeve. With the helical set this also brings decently high axial forces which are flexing the bearing plate at the other end. So high bearing loads with axial movement repeated a whole bunch of times starts to walk the race off.

That was a long way of saying I agree that a stiffer bearing retainer would help the issue. My gut tells me it's the aluminum part flexing more than the steel part. Probably also worth a quick FEA study when I get a chance.
My idea was to brace the other side of the aluminum with a bored out spare retainer (to fit the gears past) that has braces and nuts welded to it so you can also put a bit more torque through the stackup or maybe even a larger fastener. The one concern I have is the point between the retainer plate and the outer endcase flange. That would require something that behaves more like the Moly plate upgrade for 555's. I think it would be fun to fab that kind of stuff up.


I think that sums it up nicely.

The question is if bearing support plate flexing is all of it or is the "float" of the rear bearing held in by a snap ring allowing the shaft to "float"? A tapered roller on both ends like the input shaft would be better...
The difficult side of things to take care of is the driver side bearing right? I would think fab and finding parts would be pretty easy for the passenger side bearing. I don't know about shimming it to line the gears up though.

[BadAssPerformance]

Yeah 24.5's are the path for now until some sort of whoopass trans revision or replacement is made

Wait till you see the latest carnage pics... cracked the aluminum plate not only to the input shaft bearing hole, but also cracked through to each of the 3 surrounding back-up plate bolt holes :eek: wondered why those bolts felt loose when taking them out!

Update... worked on car to 3am, trans is back together except the shifter housing on top. Would have had that done if I didn't realize I left reverse out just before I was ready to put sealer on the end cover and had to take it back apart :banghead:

[168glhs1986]

I haven't read all your trans troubles and solutions but have you tried slipping the clutch? Someone told me Don Garlitts slipped the clutch. Much less of an on and off switch which seems to be the weak link to your setup. Heavy car, lots of power all at once. Go slow to go fast theory. Not an expert but just throwing it out there

[BadAssPerformance]

Good advice Mike! and I've been working on that.. never "dumped" a clutch in my life. The 26's made the 600hp clutch slip and the twin disk has almost no give... current plan is to learn to drive with the 24.5's... if I can make them hook, that *may* be gentle enough to save parts with the 26's

Was thinking a long clutch lever like top fuel would help?

[fishcleaner]

Was thinking a long clutch lever like top fuel would help?I was heading that rout myself, an extension on the trans lever could made adjustable in or out to get the right feel. Ultimately I was thinking of a hydraulic dampener where you could just pop the clutch and thru adjusting the dampener get it just right.

[turboshad]

http://grannys.tripod.com/hillbillyclutchslipper.html

:eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

I was heading that rout myself, an extension on the trans lever could made adjustable in or out to get the right feel. Ultimately I was thinking of a hydraulic dampener where you could just pop the clutch and thru adjusting the dampener get it just right.

I extended the clutch lever when I put the ACT twin disk in to limit the travel... still a small window. A hydraulic clutch with a restrictor should do it? T850 time?


http://grannys.tripod.com/hillbillyclutchslipper.html

:eyebrows:

LOL...

- - - Updated - - -

And the carnage...

46668466694667046671466724667346674466754667646677

[turboshad]

Now there's something I haven't seen yet. Good job JT. :clap:


A hydraulic clutch with a restrictor should do it?

Hmmmmmm, I wonder who's suggested something like that before? ;)

[Reaper1]

Wow...that plate is flexing like a mofo! Time for a re-enforced plate, or a custom one...probably chromoly. It also illustrates just how much side loading is being made by the gearset under those conditions. Maybe a conical bearing, or some sort of thrust bearing is in order? (I know that's been suggested before...I'm simply agreeing)

[turboshad]

No need for moly as it would most likely turn into a deflection issue and not a yielding issue as soon as you went carbon steel. Mild without the pockets would probably do just fine.

[Reaper1]

I <3 overkill!! ;)

[BadAssPerformance]

Now there's something I haven't seen yet. Good job JT. :clap:

Thanks! always fun to share new carnage, LOL, oie


Hmmmmmm, I wonder who's suggested something like that before? ;)

Yep, the snowman from uranium land has some great ideas :)


Update: Yesterday took the "fresh" bearing trans'd Z down to Tuffy's for an alignment (Thanks CobraT93 & TurboRon25!) and it ran great, but STILL has the same bearing noise :banghead: and after pulling the axles this morning I am thinking it may just be the OBX diff possibly beat to sh!t from the 5-6 axles that snapped off in it? ... hmm...

[85glht]

Update: but STILL has the same bearing noise :banghead: and after pulling the axles this morning I am thinking it may just be the OBX diff possibly beat to sh!t from the 5-6 axles that snapped off in it? ... hmm...


It sucks that you went through the whole tranny only to have the same noise occur. Gonna just run it as is?

[BadAssPerformance]

It sucks that you went through the whole tranny only to have the same noise occur. Gonna just run it as is?

Thats the problem, I didnt go thru the whole trans, I saw the cracked bearing and plate and thought that HAD to be it :banghead: trans is all apart again and pretty sure its the front intermediate shaft bearing and the OBX is possibly making noise too. Guess the hammering of axle snappage might have beat some parts up.

Between this and all the other stuff that needs to be checked out on the car and busy at work, I'm outta time, the car will not make it to drag week :(

MB and I are still planning on going tho to crew/spectate, etc. Unless they let me run a backup car?

[85glht]

That blows! Good luck!!

[Aries_Turbo]

is the front bearing the tig glued one or the one with the snap ring at the other end?

take the csx clone? ;)

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Front is TIG glued (think "front" of engine)

Clone has cracked head (cracks from coolant triangles to each cylinder :eek:) ... I'd race it on any track, but heats up on highway :/

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That blows! Good luck!!

Thanks!

[Aries_Turbo]

Front is TIG glued (think "front" of engine)

Clone has cracked head (cracks from coolant triangles to each cylinder :eek:) ... I'd race it on any track, but heats up on highway :/



when i think of a RWD car, front and rear are obvious. on our cars, i think it terms of passenger side and drivers side. :)

that sucks, we gotta figure out a cup and cone setup for that intermediate shaft somehow.

brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Straight cut gears...

[Ondonti]

when i think of a RWD car, front and rear are obvious. on our cars, i think it terms of passenger side and drivers side. :)

that sucks, we gotta figure out a cup and cone setup for that intermediate shaft somehow.

brian
I think it would be best to ditch the entire aluminum bearing plate and retaining plate and replace that with 1 piece of steel (heavy maybe to save on machining costs). Just requires mapping out the fastener and bearing locations on paper then putting that into a CAD program. At that point we would then figure out bearings that would be able to fit into the plate and then design the bearing hole sizes for the plate. I was thinking about this on the way home from work. I just don't have time for this project at the moment (more pressing automotive issues). Then find a narrow tapered bearing that can fit into that thickness. I really don't see how the other stuff is hard because we should be able to make various thickness inner and outer sleeves to make tapered bearings fit everywhere else (the front side). No need for a perfect fit. Sleeves are not a big deal to make.

[BadAssPerformance]

Update...

Replaced the front I-shaft bearing and put a different 3-4 fork/rail in it. Seems to shift OK, still makes some gear whine tho :(

Took it to Grove yesterday anyways... back on 110... Went 10.80 @ 136 off the trailer, came back with a high idle (vacuum/boost leak), ran 10.86 at 133... so probably losing boost, need to fix!

[85glht]

Back on 110...... 110 octane fuel?

[Ondonti]

60' ? How would you rate the pass? tractionless and sad or decent and fun?

[BadAssPerformance]

Back on 110...... 110 octane fuel?

Yes, I had started tuning it on 93 for Drag Week, but since that didn't happen... back to the good stuff!


60' ? How would you rate the pass? tractionless and sad or decent and fun?

IIR for 60' the first pass was 1.76 and the second was 1.71, spinning all the way thru 1st, so pretty much tractionless, but still fun runs LOL

[85glht]

Yes, I had started tuning it on 93 for Drag Week, but since that didn't happen... back to the good stuff!


Ok, I see.

[Ondonti]

Yes, I had started tuning it on 93 for Drag Week, but since that didn't happen... back to the good stuff!



IIR for 60' the first pass was 1.76 and the second was 1.71, spinning all the way thru 1st, so pretty much tractionless, but still fun runs LOL
Your 10.56 run was only 1.70 and the people around you on the list are no better then 1.69.

I would be interested to see how limiting power in 1st gear could improve 60's until you got to the point at your cars weight where you started going slower. That or at least make your runs more consistent. My best 60' ever was only a 13 second pass running through a slipping clutch. 1.71. I would assume that Pat goes so deep into the ranks with good shifting but also good 60's because his HP/weight is lower then everyone else around him. Turbo-Mopar times does not show most of us doing very well at the 60' and 1.6' seem to be mostly only 10 second territory.

[Syd1970]

Man let me know next time your going to the Grove. I would love to see you run. Hell mite even bring my Shelby down.

[BadAssPerformance]

Your 10.56 run was only 1.70 and the people around you on the list are no better then 1.69.

I would be interested to see how limiting power in 1st gear could improve 60's until you got to the point at your cars weight where you started going slower. That or at least make your runs more consistent. My best 60' ever was only a 13 second pass running through a slipping clutch. 1.71. I would assume that Pat goes so deep into the ranks with good shifting but also good 60's because his HP/weight is lower then everyone else around him. Turbo-Mopar times does not show most of us doing very well at the 60' and 1.6' seem to be mostly only 10 second territory.

Yep... get out of my head! LOL... the track was laaaaaazy and didn't get going for a looooong time, seriously musta had a problem cuz the lanes opened 2hr late. Was planning to make a pass or two on low boost, but after the delay just decided to turn it up off the trailer. I have a ghetto 2-stage boost controller I made a couple years ago but didn't have time to install it before going

Good thoughts on 60' but the difference is after that... the 10.56 was on 26's, now its back on 24.5's. Similar 60', but (I need to look up to confirm) the 26's net a better 330'

Another difference in the runs, the 10.56 was more granny shifting, the runs from last weekend were closer to open throttle.... so need to investigate the 330' and boost leakage...

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Man let me know next time your going to the Grove. I would love to see you run. Hell mite even bring my Shelby down.

Will do! I usually try to post when we're going in the SDAC-Chicagoland Chapter lounge thread here, and in the SDAC Chicago group on FaceBook, also on the SDAC-CL e-mail list. Hoping to get the Z out at least one more time this year!

TW, we're going to grove tonight, but with DodgeShadowChik's Talon :nod:

[Ondonti]

I was figuring you got out of 1st gear just after the 60' and you didn't say anything about 2nd spinning. Of course I know there is spinning hard and then there is that tire slipping roar that could be what is hurting the 330'. I sorta assumed that doesn't hurt much because it acts like a loose torque converter but I could be very wrong.

[Pat]

I was figuring you got out of 1st gear just after the 60' and you didn't say anything about 2nd spinning. Of course I know there is spinning hard and then there is that tire slipping roar that could be what is hurting the 330'. I sorta assumed that doesn't hurt much because it acts like a loose torque converter but I could be very wrong.

Part of his 330 drop is going to be due to speed at shifts. Given the same gearing with a shorter tire, the car is going to be traveling slower every time he gets off the power to shift. Even for only a split second, the if the car is rolling (not accelerating) slower, it's going to have an effect on ET at every step through the run.

On my drag week car, I countered this a bit by going to a 3.50 gear with the shorter slicks. Given the same individual gear gearing and a 6750 shift rpm (just to keep it even), but one combo being 3.50 gear/23" and one being 3.85 gear/24.5, I'm going 2 mph faster on the 1/2 shift, 2.5 mph faster on the 2/3 shift and 3.2 mph faster on the 3/4 shift. This further helps it ET better for a given 1/4 mile trap speed.

For JT, with a 6750 shift rpm and the same trans/gearing, but going to 24.5" slicks from the 26's, he is going 2.2 mph slower on the 1/2, 3.4 mph slower on the 2/3 and 5.2 mph slower on the 3/4.

If you're only rolling, you want to be rolling as fast as possible. :-)

[Ondonti]

Part of his 330 drop is going to be due to speed at shifts. Given the same gearing with a shorter tire, the car is going to be traveling slower every time he gets off the power to shift. Even for only a split second, the if the car is rolling (not accelerating) slower, it's going to have an effect on ET at every step through the run.

On my drag week car, I countered this a bit by going to a 3.50 gear with the shorter slicks. Given the same individual gear gearing and a 6750 shift rpm (just to keep it even), but one combo being 3.50 gear/23" and one being 3.85 gear/24.5, I'm going 2 mph faster on the 1/2 shift, 2.5 mph faster on the 2/3 shift and 3.2 mph faster on the 3/4 shift. This further helps it ET better for a given 1/4 mile trap speed.

For JT, with a 6750 shift rpm and the same trans/gearing, but going to 24.5" slicks from the 26's, he is going 2.2 mph slower on the 1/2, 3.4 mph slower on the 2/3 and 5.2 mph slower on the 3/4.

If you're only rolling, you want to be rolling as fast as possible. :-)
Can his 330' could seem exaggeratedly worse if that rolling time is right before the 330'? Post up full slips to compare JT! Wondering if this car will get enough passes to see if axles survive with current driving habits and setup.

[Pat]

Can his 330' could seem exaggeratedly worse if that rolling time is right before the 330'? Post up full slips to compare JT! Wondering if this car will get enough passes to see if axles survive with current driving habits and setup.

Yep..if he's shifting after the 330 on the 26's but before the 330 on 24.5's, that would be seen heavily in the 330 ET. It's a perfect example of speed traveling during the shift and how it effects ET.

[BadAssPerformance]

if you're spinning, you're not pulling as hard. 24.5's spun all the way thru 1st and I held it in 1st till the wheel speed caught up to the rpm so it didn't drop rpm and bog in 2nd, I think this is where some of the lost ET is

After abusing the tires in 1st I think it hooked ok in 2nd, maybe not at first, but once it was pulling. I'll have to dig up time slips to compare