Can I run on 16 volts?

[Reeves]

Anyone tried to run our cars on 16volts? Can everything handle it?

[mw6886]

Things tend to get a little warm - and melty.

[Reeves]

Here's why I ask: http://www.cfmvoltguard.com/

I'm thinking I can keep my small light 12v lawntractor battery, have this volt guard control voltage to the fuel pump and ignition (which are both rated to 16v+). I may also have to control power to the power module so the fuel injectors work properly? This would allow me to kill the field wires to the alternator during WOT. Saving maybe a few ponies and also keeping the ignition and pump happy. We are only talking about being without an alternator for less than 15 seconds. I guess I could try to make a run at Turbopalooza with no alternator first to see how it would work... HMM...

I'm also planning on going to an electric fuel pump.

[cordes]

You don't run an electrical pump now?

[turbovanman²]

+2 with Cordes, ;)

I thought you were finally seeing the light and going 16 VALVES, :clap:

Interesting to see the outcome of this thread.

[zin]

Here's why I ask: http://www.cfmvoltguard.com/

I'm thinking I can keep my small light 12v lawn tractor battery, have this volt guard control voltage to the fuel pump and ignition (which are both rated to 16v+). I may also have to control power to the power module so the fuel injectors work properly? This would allow me to kill the field wires to the alternator during WOT. Saving maybe a few ponies and also keeping the ignition and pump happy. We are only talking about being without an alternator for less than 15 seconds. I guess I could try to make a run at Turbopalooza with no alternator first to see how it would work... HMM...

I'm also planning on going to an electric fuel pump.

You might look into this:

http://www.jacobselectronics.com/ProductDetails.aspx?brandId=13&productID=9690086&majID=775&minID=0&selection=6&minselection=1

Jacobs Electronics has been around for some time, and it is likely less $$, plus you can adjust the voltage all over the place, so you might just find a happy medium, say14.5V, or whatever. Nicest thing about either of these is that the output voltage is consistent even when the batt is low. It'll do enough current to support pretty much everything in the car, with the exception of the starter, and even that's pretty close. As I understand it these are very popular with the Stereo Competitors, keeps the amps pumping and the distortion at a min.

Mike

[GLHSKEN]

I thought you were finally seeing the light and going 16 VALVES, :clap:



:lol: :lol: Now that is funny... Why would he need 16V's... Your van would run mid 11's with his set-up.... :amen:

[turbovanman²]

:lol: :lol: Now that is funny... Why would he need 16V's... Your van would run mid 11's with his set-up.... :amen:

Your right, it could, ;)

Wait until I get his setup tuned, :clap: Yeah baby yeah, :partywoot:

I gotta say, the TIII is much nicer to drive around town, way more bottom end, and smooth baby, smooth. :eyebrows:

[Reeves]

Yes I do have an electric fuel pump....Aeromotive A1000. I meant to say electric water pump in that first post....oops!

I'll look into the Jacobs.

[Reeves]

http://tinyurl.com/2tm88c

Older, but is good to 50 amps. Probably enough to run the fuel pump, the ignition, the power module and logic module, and maybe even the water pump (if i add one). I'll have to see what the running load is on the car without the starter. I can probably just splice it in to the hot wire that does everything but the starter.

Thoughts?

[mock_glh]

Here's why I ask: http://www.cfmvoltguard.com/
I may also have to control power to the power module so the fuel injectors work properly? This would allow me to kill the field wires to the alternator during WOT.

I believe the stock computer already cuts the field at at WOT.

[turbovanman²]

http://tinyurl.com/2tm88c

Older, but is good to 50 amps. Probably enough to run the fuel pump, the ignition, the power module and logic module, and maybe even the water pump (if i add one). I'll have to see what the running load is on the car without the starter. I can probably just splice it in to the hot wire that does everything but the starter.

Thoughts?

That would do it but I am pretty sure you'd be over 50 amps running just the fuel pump and waterpump or pretty close.

[Frank]

Your right, it could, ;)

Wait until I get his setup tuned, :clap: Yeah baby yeah, :partywoot:

I gotta say, the TIII is much nicer to drive around town, way more bottom end, and smooth baby, smooth. :eyebrows:

Believe it when I see it! :D

[turbovanman²]

Believe it when I see it! :D

Ouch, :mecry: :p

[Reeves]

I believe the stock computer already cuts the field at at WOT.

I don't know, but I would think that you would see the headlights dim if that was true. Especially in a car with A/C on full and headlights on and then you floor it. I would definately think the blower would slow down and the lights would dim if you killed the alternator at WOT.

[cordes]

The computer cuts the AC clutch at WOT I believe.

[Reeves]

True.

[JDAWG]

why pay $300 when all you have to do is get an adjustable voltager regulator? like this http://www.batteriesareus.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=366 They are like $100. Guys in the car audio feild have been doing this for years. Run your alternator at 16v, get a 16v battery. I wouldnt reccomend this for a daily driver though. Most guys back their car off the trailer, go through the lanes and put it back. I really dont see anything more than 14v being good running on a dialy basis.

[zin]

why pay $300 when all you have to do is get an adjustable voltager regulator? like this http://www.batteriesareus.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=366 They are like $100. Guys in the car audio field have been doing this for years. Run your alternator at 16v, get a 16v battery. I wouldn't recommend this for a daily driver though. Most guys back their car off the trailer, go through the lanes and put it back. I really don't see anything more than 14v being good running on a daily basis.

The main thing is that the Accuvolt will hold the voltage even if the battery won't hold the voltage, true enough, if all you want it higher voltage, that gizmo should do the trick, but it won't help when the car isn't running. That's another reason these things were so popular with the car audio guys, alot of those competitions don't let them run the car so these really help out.

Mike

[Dodgeglht]

You put 16V to the battery & it will die very, and I mean VERY quickly. When I worked at advance auto, I had a customer come in the day after we installed a brand new battery, and it was severely swollen. Checked the alternator & it was putting out 16 volts. Had to change the alternator then & there to keep from blowing up a second battery.
Matt

[Ondonti]

what exactly are we wanting to run higher voltage for......just the fuel pump?.......or to charge the battery faster between runs???

For the pump why cant you just run a BAP (boost a pump).

[Reeves]

I was asking for two reasons:
1.) Ignition would like it and fuel pump wouldn't mind it
2.) I wanted to *turn off* the alternator at WOT.

A voltage regulator will not do number 2.

I DO NOT plan on charging the battery at 16V nor do I plan to change the battery to a 16V.

[1qk4dr]

I just don't see the benefit of running 16v vs. 12-12.5 volts. If all the components are getting enough voltage and the spark is igniting the fuel then what would be the issue? Voltage rise time are due to components. I say just run it without the alternator and see what happens. It’s safer than burning up components though I don't think will be the case with just 16v. I guess your main concern would be large voltage drops. Make sure you have low resistivity with the connection and wires. Maybe get a voltmeter hook up when your racing to the individual parts?

BTW DC to DC converter may cost you more and add additional weight. So adding a battery in series or replacing your 12v for a 16 would be a lot cheeper.


Food for thought--
It takes about 10-14,000 volts to initiate the spark across the plug gap. After the initial arc the voltage required to sustain the arc is much less and drops off significantly. So while you may have a manufacturer claimed 60,000 volt racing coil you can't actually get that across the plug. Since the advantage of CDI is the higher coil output, how does that get used. Well, normally it doesn't. The extra power possible in the coil is "Reserve Voltage". As the plugs wear, fouling, plug wires and connections get worse then the required firing voltage may go up 1-5,000 volts. So the "hotter" CDI coil output can help overcome these obstacles and the ignition system will last longer. So, its not that its working better.... but rather lasting longer that makes a hot coil good. The ideal coil output needed for normal applications is about 30,000 volts.

Resource-
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

Other words just run it without the alternator and see what happens like you were planning,lol.

[1qk4dr]

http://www.cfmvoltguard.com/

I never seen one of these- pretty sweet and from talking to our electrical guy inexpensive and light.

[zin]

http://www.cfmvoltguard.com/

I never seen one of these- pretty sweet and from talking to our electrical guy inexpensive and light.

$325.00 inexpensive? I thought I was on Turbo Mopar... Maybe I stumbled onto the Ferrari board? :lol: Guess I'm a bit thriftier than some, but to each their own.

The higher voltage would generally make all the electrical stuff work faster/better, but the is obviously a limit to the voltage you could run. I like the Accuvolt because its adjustable, so you could start with something very close to stock, then bump it up a little at a time. The injectors will open quicker, and to a higher pressure, the fuel pump will put out more volume and higher pressures, the ignition will be "sparkier", etc. Some things might not like it too much though, like the radio, maybe the rear defogger, things that get straight 12V and are high amp draw. The computer should be ok, it shoudl have some kind of protection against too high a voltage and the sensor run on the voltage provided by the computer. But, that's why I suggest starting close to stock and bumping it up a little at a time. More to the point of this thread is that he'll be able to ensure whatever voltage he ends up with will be there, even if the alternator's cut off at WOT. Which I think was the goal, keep the voltage (whatever that ends up being) while killing the alternator/parasitic drag.

PS No offense to 1qk4dr, I haven't priced the Accuvolt, they may be even more $$.

[turbovanman²]

$325 isn't out of line and for someone like Reeves who has spent alot of money, this will probably help him alot.

Also, just because we are TM owners, doesn't make us cheap, there are quite a few of us that spend money and don't mind. To each there own, :amen:

[JDAWG]

I honestly still dont see the advantage here. Anything more than 14v isnt going to do anything. Get a gel cell under the hood, rewire the factory wiring doing a 'big 3' with like 1/0 wire, redo factory terminals that are old, etc. I did all this to my car and it went from 13.6 volts at idle to 14.1 with EVERYTHING on. And why spend that much on a converter when all you have to do is buy an adjustable voltage regulator for $89 and turn it up to whatever you want.

[1qk4dr]

PS No offense to 1qk4dr, I haven't priced the Accuvolt, they may be even more $$.[/QUOTE]

I was expecting this thing to be closer to 750-1000 dollars . I'm not saying it's cheep but inexpensive for what it is. I'm frugal and I like deals. This seems pretty reasonable for 325. No offense taken.

[Ondonti]

so why not buy two items.

Get the ability to turn off the alternator, and then run a boost a pump so only your fuel pump sees increaseed voltage.

I guess i dont understand what turning off the alternator would do if the clutch was already disengaged @ WOT.

[JDAWG]

I guess yea, if you just wanted to run the pump at 16v. But why spend 300 some dollars? If its just for a race car and you are only going to run it minutes at a time then just get an adjustable reg and a battery. Alot of companies are making 16v batteries now, turbostart jumps out as just one.

[Reeves]

so why not buy two items.

Get the ability to turn off the alternator, and then run a boost a pump so only your fuel pump sees increaseed voltage.

I guess i dont understand what turning off the alternator would do if the clutch was already disengaged @ WOT.


Huh? You got a clutch on your alternator?

[Reeves]

I guess yea, if you just wanted to run the pump at 16v. But why spend 300 some dollars? If its just for a race car and you are only going to run it minutes at a time then just get an adjustable reg and a battery. Alot of companies are making 16v batteries now, turbostart jumps out as just one.

You ain't got the point. I'm trying to gain power at the wheels by killing the alternator while I go down the track. I was looking at the volt guard which happens to output 16v. It puts out a constant 16v even if the incoming voltage drops to 9v. The battery WILL drop voltage when the alternator is killed. As long as the battery still has reserve, it can take the high amp draw necessary to keep the volt guard running, which will lower the voltage even more, but it won't matter. Make sense?

I do agree that the Jacobs is probably better since it has an adjustable output voltage. Set it to probably around 14.5 volts and that should work pretty good. Plus, the new Jacobs unit is 100amps. Should be more than enough to run the entire car minus the starter. It could probably do the starter too, but I wouldn't chance it.

A voltage regulator like you are talking about only changes the charging voltage. Useless to me if I kill the alternator.

I do not want to run a 16V battery or a 16V alternator. No use in it.

[zin]

Also, just because we are TM owners, doesn't make us cheap, there are quite a few of us that spend money and don't mind. To each there own, :amen:

Yeah, I know, I'm just being a wise donkey! One of the things I love about TMs is the fact that they generally don't take much $$ to make them fast, but just like any other sport, when you want to get closer to the leading edge, it's gonna cost you! And the closer you go, the costs go up exponentially!

Speaking of spending $$, Cams?

Mike

[Ondonti]

Huh? You got a clutch on your alternator?I misread previous post about the a/c :p

[iangoround]

Maybe I'm wrong here, and please tell me if I am.

It is my understanding that alternators will produce voltage when spun. The voltage regulator acts as a choke. That being said, "killing" the alternator means closing the choke, but the alt is still spinning and the drag is still there.

That is, unless you could modify an A/C clutch to use on the alternator pulley. That would be cool.

[bfarroo]

When you kill the alternator you don't have to drive it through the electrical field which creates the drag he is looking to get rid of. Your pretty much just spinning it as if it were a idler pulley.

[Reeves]

When you kill the alternator you don't have to drive it through the electrical field which creates the drag he is looking to get rid of. Your pretty much just spinning it as if it were a idler pulley.

Exactly....

[JDAWG]

why dont you run a 16v batt and charge it before each run?

[Reeves]

I don't *need* 16 volts. I was mostly looking for a way to kill the alternator and not go below about 13.5 volts or so.

[turbovanman²]

I was reading my new Hot Rod or Car Craft and DUI, the guys that make GM HEI's for most engines now has a voltage stabilizer, it will lock the voltage to its preset value, just what your looking for.

Found the info, it steps up the voltage to 18 volts regardless of battery voltage-

http://www.performancedistributors.com/minivip.htm

[Reeves]

It doesn't say what kind of current loads it can handle. Guessing by the small wires, it isn't much....probably just enough to handle an ignition. I would also need to power the fuel pump to be on the safe side I'm thinking.

[Lugert]

Sorry this is old news, maybe you gave up.
But just so you know. I have 16 volt regulators for the Denso Alternators for our cars. :)

[RoadWarrior222]

Wait until I get his setup tuned, :clap: Yeah baby yeah, :partywoot:

Does this year look lucky? :D

[wallace]

How much hp does it take to run the alternator at the full load going down the track?

[contraption22]

Anyone tried to run our cars on 16volts? Can everything handle it?

Jon Trotter has/had an overcharging issue and nothing burned down. You should be golden! lol

[Reeves]

How much hp does it take to run the alternator at the full load going down the track?

I did the calculations a while back at full load amperage and it wasn't much. That's why this thread is old. LOL

Let's say 90amp alternator at full boogie and 14volts. It's putting out 1260 Watts. If you convert watts directly to horsepower, that is 1.7 horsepower.

Let's say the alternator is only 60% effiecient (I have no idea how effiecient it really is.....), then we are looking at about 3hp.

You can add in parasitic losses as well, but the only way to lose those is to take the alternator totally out of the equation (throw your belt at launch). LOL

[contraption22]

I did the calculations a while back at full load amperage and it wasn't much. That's why this thread is old. LOL

Let's say 90amp alternator at full boogie and 14volts. It's putting out 1260 Watts. If you convert watts directly to horsepower, that is 1.7 horsepower.

Let's say the alternator is only 60% effiecient (I have no idea how effiecient it really is.....), then we are looking at about 3hp.

You can add in parasitic losses as well, but the only way to lose those is to take the alternator totally out of the equation (throw your belt at launch). LOL

I would say from your findings that the potential cons of not running an alternator outweigh any possible pros.

[Reeves]

I would say from your findings that the potential cons of not running an alternator outweigh any possible pros.

I agree.

Rob Lloyd and I had talked about this as well when this thread was still alive, killing the alt at WOT. I belive he did some testing on his very accurate bracket race Daytona, and it didn't help. Plus he was losing major battery voltage by the end of the track.

[contraption22]

I agree.

Rob Lloyd and I had talked about this as well when this thread was still alive, killing the alt at WOT. I belive he did some testing on his very accurate bracket race Daytona, and it didn't help. Plus he was losing major battery voltage by the end of the track.

Not cool when you need all the voltage to the fuel pump and ignition you can get.

[zin]

In my experience running something to keep up the voltage is much more beneficial than the fraction of HP freed-up by not running it or cutting it out. Far too many issues with pumps and ignitions not being able to function as intended.

As an aside, electric motors work better and live longer with higher voltage than lower voltage (within reason of course). Some electronics that don't have protection built in will do weird things sometimes, but rarely do they "let the magic smoke out" when run at higher than normal voltages (ie 16V vs 12v)

An viable alternative is a Jacob's AccuVolt. It maintains it's output voltage (and is adjustable), regardless of the battery's voltage. It has enough capacity to run pretty much everything other than the starter. Lots of folks used them with high powered stereos to keep the amps properly "fed"...

That's my .02, don't spend it all in one place!:)

Mike

[RoadWarrior222]

You know what would be fun, a small rare earth magnet motor on the tension side of the belt, with a roller drive figured out to give you up to 20V on the ignition coil at high RPM. Volt rise with rpm. Wire across coil in parallel with batt/alt voltage, with diodes to stop backfeeding anything else.