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View Full Version : 60 trim not a good match!!!



turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 12:42 AM
I was running a 60 trim T3/T4, stage III turbine and .63 housing, external wastegate and had big time issues. I couldn't hold any type of boost at part throttle or any type of boost except at WOT. 23psi I got surging and building up to WOT, lots of surge. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't hold boost at anything but WOT. I have a pretty good flowing intake and ex setup, my only bottle neck is my 725 cfm IC but even still? :confused:

So for sh*ts and giggles, swapped out the 60 trim for a 50 trim and housing I had from an old turbo I blew up, :( . I love 16valve engines, it took me LESS THAN AN HOUR, :clap:

Anyhow HOLY SH*T, total difference, I can hold any amount of boost or throttle opening, it pulls better and cleanly off idle and is way more fun to drive and I don't get that dreaded surge unless at WOT. I didn't get chance to go WOT as traffic and cops everywhere, missed a speeding ticket my mere seconds so will report back when I get to try it.

Anyone have any idea why the 60 trim didn't work? I dont' recall anyone running this size, but lots run the 57 trim.

Ondonti
10-10-2007, 01:10 AM
What are the exact specifications of each turbo setup you tried? Wheel, compressor covers, turbine wheel, turbine housing, center section. Condition
What you posted is a big hard to follow regarding that.

What do you mean no surge unless at WOT but you never went WOT?

You also promise you didn't change anything?

Lotashelbys
10-10-2007, 01:37 AM
A 50 trim turbo on a TIII is like an awesome combo. Its like they are made for each other. I would say a 50trim t3/t4 with .63 housing and a stage 2 back wheel with an ATP housing and 3" mandrel downpipe of some sort is like the killer combo for a street driven TIII car. For those who want a little more mid and more top then a stage 3 wheel instead of the 2. I have been in a car with the 57 trim and it had a crazy surge at high RPMs as well. So,I say 50 trim all the way:amen:

Turbo224
10-10-2007, 01:58 AM
50 trim for me! :evil:

BadAssPerformance
10-10-2007, 02:45 AM
Anyone have any idea why the 60 trim didn't work? I dont' recall anyone running this size, but lots run the 57 trim.

Something is not right... your turbo is very similar to mine except the 60-1 HiFi I run has a different profile although it is the same size. And I ran it on an 8 valve...

What exactly is happening (describe what it is doing) that you are calling surge?

ShadowBrad
10-10-2007, 03:02 AM
I ran a T3/T4E .63(Stage 3)/60Trim from Turbonetics on my 2.2L Hybrid, the neon head was a completely stock rebuild.
I was running a stock stratus intake manifold.
A home-made log exhaust mani.
Internal gate, and a 3" full exhaust, no cat, no muffler.
It spooled quite fast, 5psi by 2500rpm and 20psi by 3500rpm, which happened almost instantly.
I would think that a 2.5L TIII would work well with a 60Trim.

-brad

bansheenut420
10-10-2007, 04:05 AM
Holset FTW! :D Would have been a 50 trim otherwise.

turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 04:24 AM
What are the exact specifications of each turbo setup you tried? Wheel, compressor covers, turbine wheel, turbine housing, center section. Condition
What you posted is a big hard to follow regarding that.

What do you mean no surge unless at WOT but you never went WOT?

You also promise you didn't change anything?


Something is not right... your turbo is very similar to mine except the 60-1 HiFi I run has a different profile although it is the same size. And I ran it on an 8 valve...

What exactly is happening (describe what it is doing) that you are calling surge?


Garret T04E cover, 60 trim wheel, I can measure it if you guys want and look at the backing plate tag if that helps.

It surges, makes that chatter noise, like a serpent, did it at 23 psi, when going to WOT- it would surge then clean up, wouldn't let me hold boost unless at WOT. So if going up a hill, light throttle, it would give me boost then chatter/surge and drop out-I thought my wastegate setup was no good. I can't make it a clearer than that. Guys also picked it up on the dyno in my video. Maybe it needed the 58mm TB??????????? to keep the air flow up.

Now, it will hold boost at any rpm or throttle angle, night and day difference, :clap:

I lied, I couldn't drive it like this, it was undriveable and I was going to damage the turbo if I kept driving it.

John B
10-10-2007, 06:06 AM
So, what do you guys think of a 50 trim/.63 stg 2 on an 8 valve?

tryingbe
10-10-2007, 09:32 AM
My 60trim is perfect match for me.












































It's a T3 60 trim...

turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 01:08 PM
So, what do you guys think of a 50 trim/.63 stg 2 on an 8 valve?

Awesome turbo for an 8 valve too. ;)

RJ138
10-10-2007, 01:57 PM
A 50 trim turbo on a TIII is like an awesome combo. Its like they are made for each other. I would say a 50trim t3/t4 with .63 housing and a stage 2 back wheel with an ATP housing and 3" mandrel downpipe of some sort is like the killer combo for a street driven TIII car. For those who want a little more mid and more top then a stage 3 wheel instead of the 2. I have been in a car with the 57 trim and it had a crazy surge at high RPMs as well. So,I say 50 trim all the way:amen:

I havn't run into any issues with the 57 trim on my R/T, although I was only running 14 psi. I guess I will find out in a couple weeks when the new set up gets straped down on the dyno.:evil:

turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 02:15 PM
I havn't run into any issues with the 57 trim on my R/T, although I was only running 14 psi. I guess I will find out in a couple weeks when the new set up gets straped down on the dyno.:evil:

Keep us informed.

Does it hold boost at part throttle? any snake type noises during boosting and/or Wot?

RJ138
10-10-2007, 02:21 PM
Keep us informed.

Does it hold boost at part throttle? any snake type noises during boosting and/or Wot?

Spool up was kind of late so I can't really recall what part throttle was like. There were no snake type noises during boosting that I recall, but it was only at 14psi. I will hopefully fire the car up tonight and work out what ever kinks and have it on a dyno in the next few weeks.

Ondonti
10-10-2007, 06:03 PM
So you are thinking that when you are closing the throttle that the compressor is still moving to much air and the throttle being mostly closed is creating a restriction which makes the turbo surge.
Or what?
That would mean the turbo is just spooling to easily at part throttle?
What makes the 50 trim behave? moving less air at the same boost?

Can you hook a boost gauge up to your turbo or IC piping to measure if it is is higher in the IC piping at part throttle then it is in the intake manifold?

That would prove my stupid guess wrong :D

moparzrule
10-10-2007, 06:15 PM
That would mean the turbo is just spooling to easily at part throttle?


This is typically when surge happens....too large of a compressor for a given turbine. But he already has a stage 3 .63, so pretty much a 60 trim is no good for anything other than a race only vehicle.

turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 06:47 PM
So you are thinking that when you are closing the throttle that the compressor is still moving to much air and the throttle being mostly closed is creating a restriction which makes the turbo surge.
Or what?
That would mean the turbo is just spooling to easily at part throttle?
What makes the 50 trim behave? moving less air at the same boost?

Can you hook a boost gauge up to your turbo or IC piping to measure if it is is higher in the IC piping at part throttle then it is in the intake manifold?

That would prove my stupid guess wrong :D


I think the intake isn't flowing enough air to keep the compressor out of surge, so the bigger TB should help that, if my thinking is correct.

50 trim moves less air and according to Franks maps, its the better turbo, the 60 trim is close to the surge line.

I could do some testing, I have tested before and the it will be higher before the TB due to the throttle blades acting as a big restriction until you hit WOT.

turbovanmanČ
10-10-2007, 06:50 PM
This is typically when surge happens....too large of a compressor for a given turbine. But he already has a stage 3 .63, so pretty much a 60 trim is no good for anything other than a race only vehicle.

Ok, help me out on this, theory wise. So what your saying, is the turbine isn't spinning fast enough, so theres not enough air flow thru the compressor housing to keep it from surging? is that right?

What about running a smaller housing, IE .48 or what about going larger, say .82 like Cliff Ramsdell did? Or I guess, stage II turbine?????

Ondonti
10-11-2007, 03:42 AM
No he is saying the opposite.

For every rotation that your stage III turbine wheel turns in that .63 a/r housing, the 60 trim moves a lot more air then the 50 trim.

Your engine is not swallowing it........so pressure is building up and you are surging.

moparzrule
10-11-2007, 06:12 AM
Exactly correct Ondonti. The faster the turbine spins the faster the compressor spins making it pump more air....A lot of people told me I would surge running the .48 housing on my super 70, it didn't, but the theory everybody had was correct. Too small of a turbine for such a large compressor, forcing air in when it can't get back out makes boost creep too.
The .82 housing would probably work, but you would probably have one heck of a laggy SOB. Perhaps not on a 16 valve, I guess the only way to know is to try it....if you have nothing better to do simon LOL.

8valves
10-11-2007, 11:57 AM
A 60 trim is a very liveable wheel for a lot of the import crowd, although it is usually mated to .82 housings. A friend H22 powered Honda ran a 60-1 with a .82 T3 exhaust side with a stage 5 wheel, it had full boost by 4500 and ran very, very well.

With your auto and stall speed I don't know why a .82 would be any issue. However, then you lose out on your wastegate setup.

I would surely hope you're not running into an issue of the compressor pushing too much air for a slightly ported DOHC head, with a large plenum intake too boot....

turbovanmanČ
10-11-2007, 12:36 PM
No he is saying the opposite.

For every rotation that your stage III turbine wheel turns in that .63 a/r housing, the 60 trim moves a lot more air then the 50 trim.

Your engine is not swallowing it........so pressure is building up and you are surging.


Exactly correct Ondonti. The faster the turbine spins the faster the compressor spins making it pump more air....A lot of people told me I would surge running the .48 housing on my super 70, it didn't, but the theory everybody had was correct. Too small of a turbine for such a large compressor, forcing air in when it can't get back out makes boost creep too.
The .82 housing would probably work, but you would probably have one heck of a laggy SOB. Perhaps not on a 16 valve, I guess the only way to know is to try it....if you have nothing better to do simon LOL.

Ok, thanks guys, awesome info, still trying to learn about turbo's. Trying a .82 housing will be tough due to my wastegate setup so I will just stick with the 50 trim or go 57 trim. This is a DD first and foremost. Heck, if I need the 60 trim for racing, I'll just put it in, can do it in under an hour, ;)



A 60 trim is a very liveable wheel for a lot of the import crowd, although it is usually mated to .82 housings. A friend H22 powered Honda ran a 60-1 with a .82 T3 exhaust side with a stage 5 wheel, it had full boost by 4500 and ran very, very well.

With your auto and stall speed I don't know why a .82 would be any issue. However, then you lose out on your wastegate setup.

I would surely hope you're not running into an issue of the compressor pushing too much air for a slightly ported DOHC head, with a large plenum intake too boot....

I dont' know what to say, it has surge issues for sure so maybe its not a good match up with my auto trans and converter? maybe my throttle body is too small?????? Either way, 4500 is getting up there for streetability so really, I'll probably keep the 50 trim or go 57 trim.

slasky
10-11-2007, 12:45 PM
Who drives at part throttle anyway?? I thought our cars only had two settings; idle and floored.

turbovanmanČ
10-11-2007, 12:46 PM
Who drives at part throttle anyway?? I thought our cars only had two settings; idle and floored.

Hahahaaa, true for a race van, ;)

Xtrempickup
10-11-2007, 02:12 PM
i'm running a 54 Trim Stage 2 housing and i don't know what surge feels like, but my car makes nice boost at part throttle and WOT. I dont think its a mismatch for my car, I have a 58 mmm TB on ported intake and ported exhaust manifold. would a 50 trim have been better, maybe but the price was right for the 54 at the time. it does make nice boost tho. if its surging i dont know how to recognize it.

turbovanmanČ
10-11-2007, 02:28 PM
i'm running a 54 Trim Stage 2 housing and i don't know what surge feels like, but my car makes nice boost at part throttle and WOT. I dont think its a mismatch for my car, I have a 58 mmm TB on ported intake and ported exhaust manifold. would a 50 trim have been better, maybe but the price was right for the 54 at the time. it does make nice boost tho. if its surging i dont know how to recognize it.

It will chatter, like the BOV isn't venting, I also feel the sound is like a hissing snake.

54 trim should be good. What AR housing do you have?

moparzrule
10-11-2007, 02:59 PM
A super 50 flows more than a 54, and I think a regular 50 trim still flows more than a 54....I think.

jckrieger
10-11-2007, 07:52 PM
Ok guys, I'll chime in here a bit. If you want another example of a 60 trim car, Russ Jerome's old 16V omni had a TO4E 60 trim with a 2.2L. His car was also very laggy, so he probably didn't hit max boost until the upper rpm's.

Simon, you have surge, but under what conditions exactly? For me, I'd get surge above 21-23ish psi at full boost from 4500-6000RPM. What RPM are you hitting full boost? If you're hitting full boost before 4500RPM, you'll surge because you're flat out not flowing enough air for the boost level. Your 16V isn't giving you much advantage over my 8V setup at 4500RPM, so that's why you're probably hitting surge just like I did. I'll bet you $5 that if you had computer controlled boost and could prevent the motor from hitting above 20psi until 5,000rpm you wouldn't have surge problems with that turbo. Also remember that you want to keep the inlet to the turbo as restriction free as possible, as any elbows or inadequately sized filters will increase the pressure ratio and throw you closer to the surge line.

As others have said, you could also go to a .82 A/R housing and achieve a similar result to having computer controlled boost retard. That compressor isn't a terrible match, it's just not great for "low" RPM operation. I'll explain what I'm talking about with the following plots:

This is what your air demand looks like at 450hp with max boost being reached at 5000rpm:

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=1.86&pr3=2.65&pr4=2.65&pr5=2.65&pr6=2.65&pr7=2.65&airflow0=2.8&airflow1=7.6&airflow2=19.7&airflow3=37.3&airflow4=40.2&airflow5=38.7&airflow6=44.2&airflow7=45.3&product_id=61

This is what it looks like with max boost at 4500rpm:

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=1.86&pr3=2.65&pr4=2.65&pr5=2.65&pr6=2.65&pr7=2.65&airflow0=2.8&airflow1=7.6&airflow2=18.4&airflow3=33.5&airflow4=38.4&airflow5=38.7&airflow6=44.2&airflow7=45.3&product_id=61

Now here's a regular 50 trim under the same conditions with max boost at 4500rpm:

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=1.86&pr3=2.65&pr4=2.65&pr5=2.65&pr6=2.65&pr7=2.65&airflow0=2.8&airflow1=7.6&airflow2=18.4&airflow3=33.5&airflow4=38.4&airflow5=38.7&airflow6=44.2&airflow7=45.3&product_id=57

And the same conditions on a Super 50:

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=1.86&pr3=2.65&pr4=2.65&pr5=2.65&pr6=2.65&pr7=2.65&airflow0=2.8&airflow1=7.6&airflow2=18.4&airflow3=33.5&airflow4=38.4&airflow5=38.7&airflow6=44.2&airflow7=45.3&product_id=58

This basically shows how the Super 50 wheel is great for lower RPM, high pressure ratio applications, but fails to achieve efficient performance with a 16V motor at higher engine speeds. You do the math, but it looks to me like you either need to slow down your turbo at lower engine speeds, or go to a straight 50 trim.

Xtrempickup
10-11-2007, 07:56 PM
It will chatter, like the BOV isn't venting, I also feel the sound is like a hissing snake.

54 trim should be good. What AR housing do you have?


i dont hear either of this things in boost or at full boost. I have the .63 housing

jckrieger
10-11-2007, 08:08 PM
i dont hear either of this things in boost or at full boost. I have the .63 housing

The 60 trim is a monster in itself. It's a good match for a 3.8L buick motor, but it doesn't really work on a 2.5L unless you put a decent sized turbine on it or pull the boost back before 5000rpm. The 54 trim is a little more forgiving, but it looks like you might run into similar problems as Simon if you try to run high boost levels and have fast spoolup. Sizing a turbo isn't something you can do in an afternoon... it requires a lot of knowledge and planning if you want the turbo to work under all conditions. That's why I'm being employed as an "air systems performance analyst".

turbovanmanČ
10-11-2007, 08:15 PM
Ok guys, I'll chime in here a bit. If you want another example of a 60 trim car, Russ Jerome's old 16V omni had a TO4E 60 trim with a 2.2L. His car was also very laggy, so he probably didn't hit max boost until the upper rpm's.

Simon, you have surge, but under what conditions exactly? For me, I'd get surge above 21-23ish psi at full boost from 4500-6000RPM. What RPM are you hitting full boost? If you're hitting full boost before 4500RPM, you'll surge because you're flat out not flowing enough air for the boost level. Your 16V isn't giving you much advantage over my 8V setup at 4500RPM, so that's why you're probably hitting surge just like I did. I'll bet you $5 that if you had computer controlled boost and could prevent the motor from hitting above 20psi until 5,000rpm you wouldn't have surge problems with that turbo. Also remember that you want to keep the inlet to the turbo as restriction free as possible, as any elbows or inadequately sized filters will increase the pressure ratio and throw you closer to the surge line.

As others have said, you could also go to a .82 A/R housing and achieve a similar result to having computer controlled boost retard. That compressor isn't a terrible match, it's just not great for "low" RPM operation. I'll explain what I'm talking about with the following plots:

This is what your air demand looks like at 450hp with max boost being reached at 5000rpm:



This basically shows how the Super 50 wheel is great for lower RPM, high pressure ratio applications, but fails to achieve efficient performance with a 16V motor at higher engine speeds. You do the math, but it looks to me like you either need to slow down your turbo at lower engine speeds, or go to a straight 50 trim.

Well like I've said, unless I was at WOT, the boost would drop off and the turbo would surge badly. Merging onto the freeway or passing a car, going up slight inclines, it was brutal. Anything less than WOT would give me surge. On the dyno and at the track, it would surge at 23 psi and badly. Even at 20 psi, it would surge very slightly until the revs got to around 5000 rpm. You can see what i mean in the Vid section, I posted up my dyno vid.

The 50 trim is so much nicer BUT doesn't hit as hard up top but then again, I only tried it 16 or so psi.

Thanks for the info. :nod: