+40's flowed?

[ShelGame]

Has anyone had thier "+40's" flow tested? Sepecifically, someone who has a set of +40's that seem to flow too much? I know there are sets out there that run way too rich when run on a +40 calibration. If we could figure out a flow rate for these "bad" injectors, it would be a big help to everyone.

If you have a set of these hi-flow +40's, please post the part numebrs that are on the injector, if you can (both Mopar and Bosch). I suspect that they may in fact be Bosch injectors for Ford that are rated to flow 52pph@43psi fuel pressure (not 55psi). But, I need the Bosch P/N to confirm that.

[Bubba]

I believe mine flow more than they should and this is on 2 separate engines. I got mine from Gary Donovan 6 years ago. I'll check the P/Ns when I get some time.

[ShelGame]

Anyone?

[mario03SRT]

Rob,

Sorry but I don't have any p/n's for you but I can testify to the richness of the tune and the "52 lb" injectors, with a STG V cal or the S60 cal. I'm running 25+psi on a 46 trim turbo with meth. Base fuel pressure of 45 lbs and still getting a 10.5 afr at redline. Take out a 1/2 point for the meth and it's still a flat 11.0 afr. HP is somewhere in the 350 range. I outta be near the end of the injector and have a fairly large duty cycle. I'll re-do the calc on RC Eng's site to be sure.

PS my injectors are 15 months old.

FYI,
Marion

[inmyshadow]

I believe my friend Jim aka nomandman2001 has his +40s tested after we tried my +40s in his car. He posted alot about this problem on dcal early 06.

He had to rescale his calibration because his +40s were more like +50s.

later



Anyone?

[Bubba]

Where do you have injectors tested and how much does it cost?

[ShelGame]

RC Engineering (http://www.rceng.com/) - cost is about $25 per injector. But, they not only test them, the clean and balance them as well. It's a nice service for the price. I did this to the used set of +20's I bought...

[ShelGame]

I believe my friend Jim aka nomandman2001 has his +40s tested after we tried my +40s in his car. He posted alot about this problem on dcal early 06.

He had to rescale his calibration because his +40s were more like +50s.

later

Yeah, I found that (I think) and it looks like his injectors checked out. He changed the O2 sensor to clear up a rich condition. Unless I'm looking at the wrong posts...

[lametec]

I have a set in my car that seem to flow a lot more than they should. I'll see if I can get the part number at lunch time.

[MiniMopar]

I have not had mine flowed, but I can tell you what I observed while tuning my cals between the CSX and the Daytona. The set of S60 injectors that I bought about two years ago flow about 10-12% more than the set I bought back in 1998. I thought I had a leaky one in the CSX, so I put the new ones in and noticed the difference.

[lametec]

4532586 made by Siemens/DEKA. Bought from FWD-P a few years ago.

Any cal I've had in my car with these has been rich from the get go.

[badandy]

I just bought some +40's from FWD right before I put one of Rob's cals in and I am still having to pull fuel out. I will try and check P/N and static press. and report back. I know the cal was based off a TII and scaled for the supposed +40 injector flow rate... but the variance in flow rates make this difficult to obtain. Without and ajustable reg. and proper a/f management it would be hard to make the cal right without flowing the injectors first (Iwould think)

I really think flow is all over the place on the +40 injectors:o

[inmyshadow]

His O2 was fouled out by the +40 injectors. It did the same thing after a 4 wire upgrade.

He still scaled his cal back because of the to big injectors.

later



Yeah, I found that (I think) and it looks like his injectors checked out. He changed the O2 sensor to clear up a rich condition. Unless I'm looking at the wrong posts...

[mo' parts]

the ones i had a few years back also ran pig rich, on both cals i used, s-60 and a stg. 5. with the s-60 it would actually flood the engine and make it near impossible to start. i believe i had my base set to 38-40lbs, just to have an acceptable idle.

[mario03SRT]

Shel,

I went on to the RC Eng site and came up with this. The assumption that 390crank hp = 350 at the wheels, which is my estimated hp. A 10% parasitic loss due to drivetrain.

Per their calcs @ 55 psi of base fuel pressure a 65 lb injector (rated @ 43.5 psi) is required and stay at a .80 duty cycle. Of course they do not say at what afr those numbers are for.

FYI,
Marion

[csxtra]

4532586 made by Siemens/DEKA. Bought from FWD-P a few years ago.

Any cal I've had in my car with these has been rich from the get go.

I checked my +40s last night (while swapping out one that was marginal-getting knock in that cylinder only). They are the same manufacturer/part # as Per (lametec) posted above, and I had to cut down my base FP to get them to run right.

Also, I had purchased my original +40s from FWD-P 5 years ago, and the new ones I just purchased are the same manufacturer/part # as the old ones, so I can't help with identifying an individual batch of "bad" injectors, if they exist.

[kpic]

Funny I was just going to post a question about this when I saw the thread.

I bought my +40's from FWD Perf. in early 2004, I have a MFG P\N of: 5249452 (this is on the invoice so I think it might be the set number)

I got the S5 CAL at the same time and figured I had to turn down the FP way down (to like 35psi) because everyone said it ran rich and then I got a TU CAL and had to still turn down the FP and even with Robs CAL I have had to turn it down to 45psi.

If these flow like +50s does that make the correct FP 45psi? Or is there more to it than just turning down the FP?

I was going to get new +40s from FWD or TU to correct this suspecting I had a bad batch that I heard were around at that time but if FWD still shows the same PN does that mean they flow too much as well?


Can we

[mario03SRT]

I wanted to add that my afr got richer after installing a Hi Pressure 255 Walbro.

[mark]

mario, when you upgraded your pump, did you upgrade your return line too?

[mario03SRT]

mario, when you upgraded your pump, did you upgrade your return line too?

No it is stock. I'm pushing 27 psi on a T3/T4 46 Trim and i have plenty of fuel. But it is on my radar to be upgraded. I'll just swap the feed line to the return since it is larger and then run a new line from the fp to the rail.

Also I'm running water/meth inj too.

Marion

[mark]

oh ok. i thought that i recall people saying that by going to the 255 and not upgrading their return line they were experiencing higher than normal pressures and richness... i might be wrong on that, it rang a bell.

[Bubba]

People will have a problem lowering their fuel pressure low enough to use +40 injectors with a stock cal and 2-bar MAP.

[glhs727]

we flowed tested a big batch of +40's last year (20 of them)
They were all over the board. I mean like +/- 20% from each other. We had to do 20 so we could get a few sets of 4 that were evenly matched.
We plan to add a injector cleaner/flow test machine over the winter, and once we do that we will offer match sets and injector service to our customers.
If someone wants a matched set, I "may" have one set left.
later,
Cindy

[cordes]

we flowed tested a big batch of +40's last year (20 of them)
They were all over the board. I mean like +/- 20% from each other. We had to do 20 so we could get a few sets of 4 that were evenly matched.
We plan to add a injector cleaner/flow test machine over the winter, and once we do that we will offer match sets and injector service to our customers.
If someone wants a matched set, I "may" have one set left.
later,
Cindy

So you are saying that some of the +40s you flowed actually flowed less than what a +20 is supposed to flow?

[mario03SRT]

I guess then I'll pull mine and send them to RC Eng or others to flow and balance mine.

[mario03SRT]

oh ok. i thought that i recall people saying that by going to the 255 and not upgrading their return line they were experiencing higher than normal pressures and richness... i might be wrong on that, it rang a bell.

That may well be true. I've also been told and read that my stock fuel rail is a POS too for my boost levels.

So.........new rail, new returnline, flow and balance inj's. Hey it's only $$$:o

I need a sugar momma. :hail:

[Directconnection]

we flowed tested a big batch of +40's last year (20 of them)
They were all over the board. I mean like +/- 20% from each other. We had to do 20 so we could get a few sets of 4 that were evenly matched.
We plan to add a injector cleaner/flow test machine over the winter, and once we do that we will offer match sets and injector service to our customers.
If someone wants a matched set, I "may" have one set left.
later,
Cindy

If you get an injecter cleaner/flow test machine, you can count me in for having mine flowtested. They are brand new in the box still.

When you get the machine, please make a post so myself and others will know.;)

BTW...will this machine enable you to fix them, or you need a batch of them to match up?

[glhs727]

So you are saying that some of the +40s you flowed actually flowed less than what a +20 is supposed to flow?

Not exactly. What I said was that out of 20 injectors flowed, there was as much as a 20% variance between individual injectors. Some flowed 10% more than a 52 pph injector, some flowed 10% less than a 52 pph injectors, etc... so with using 20 injectors we were able to get 5 sets. Two sets were dead on all 4 injectors flowing the same, and each of the other 3 sets were within 2-3% of each other.
I hope that explains it better
later,
Cindy

[glhs727]

If you get an injecter cleaner/flow test machine, you can count me in for having mine flowtested. They are brand new in the box still.

When you get the machine, please make a post so myself and others will know.;)

BTW...will this machine enable you to fix them, or you need a batch of them to match up?

There isn't a whole you can do the change flow rate other than cleaning, (with the f=machine we are getting) but what we will be able to do is take LOTS of injectors, flow them, and then sell match sets. If you already have a set, we can flow them, see where there at and then find/sell or exhange injectors to get you a matched set.
later,
Cindy

[mario03SRT]

This is another source. I got my 650cc injs for my SRT from here.

www.deatschwerks.com

[cordes]

Not exactly. What I said was that out of 20 injectors flowed, there was as much as a 20% variance between individual injectors. Some flowed 10% more than a 52 pph injector, some flowed 10% less than a 52 pph injectors, etc... so with using 20 injectors we were able to get 5 sets. Two sets were dead on all 4 injectors flowing the same, and each of the other 3 sets were within 2-3% of each other.
I hope that explains it better
later,
Cindy

Thanks for clarifying that. I was wondering how my cars were staying together for a second there. :p

[devlish]

If you already have a set, we can flow them, see where there at and then find/sell or exhange injectors to get you a matched set.
later,
Cindy

i'd like to have this done with my +40's i got from you.... get a matched set. and maybe a new fuel rail as well at that time.

anyone know if the stock feul rail (86 GLHT) is enough for the +40's at only 18psi though?? i would think the stock fuel rail would work... but that could affect the injector flow as well, if the rail is too small.

[TopDollar69]

Could a person flow a set of injectors at home? I supose 100% duty cycle would be hard on them though. I'm not pleased about the $100 charge to flow 4 injectors, but it's better than burning up a piston if I can't do it myself.

[TopDollar69]

I just recieved my +40's back from RC Engineering yesterday. They ended up flowing 53.8 pph at 55 psi. I will have to get the numbers off the injectors when I get home.

[crazymadbastard]

Could a person flow a set of injectors at home? I supose 100% duty cycle would be hard on them though. I'm not pleased about the $100 charge to flow 4 injectors, but it's better than burning up a piston if I can't do it myself.

Wondering if the batches can be THAT bad, I suppose if you are running at the jagged edge of performance, but even at 10psi it can happen via knock or high egts on a cylinder.

[crazymadbastard]

oh and this place can flow them for $6, plus they have hot nurses:

http://injector-rehab.com/index.htm

[TopDollar69]

Mine are Siemens Deka 4532586.

Dirty flow rate was about 52 pph on the lowest injector
Dirty flow rate was about 53 pph on the highest injector

Clean flow rate was about 54 pph on the lowest injector
Clean flow rate was about 54 pph on the highest injector

[glhs727]

we sell flow matched +40's for an additional charge since we have to do 20-30 injectors at a time. They will run anywhere from 490cc to 560 cc's each. We can flow test injectors also but not as cheap as $6 each, so if anyone wants their's tested, you can call us. The last go around seemed that the injectors had even more variance than ones tested in the past. I guess quality control is down....

[ShelGame]

490 to 560cc? That's a huge range for what are supposed to be the same injectors...

[karlak]

the ole + or - 10%

[mcglsr2]

has anyone tried the injector-rehab place? i've got a new set of +40's that i think i will send their way for the flow test. $6 per injector is quite reasonable.

[fastasleep]

I am now using a brand new set of +40's from FWD Performance that I bought a while ago. I now have the WBO2 hooked up and with a cal. from ShelGame I am running rich. The injectors were supposed to be used at 55 psi, but with that fuel pressure I am running anywhere from 9.8X to 10.2X at WOT. At 45 psi, however, I am running about 11.4x-11.5x:1 under WOT. I am going to drop pressure again to 40-42 psi tomorrow and take another pull. I have methanol injection to help the top end along, but would like to iron this out on fuel only before I introduce anything else. 40-42 psi seems a little low, though, doesn't it?
Shouldn't I be shooting for 12.5:1 at WOT?
BTW, I did calibrate the O2 sensor this morning before using it, and all findings were backed up by the Dawes Device, for what ever that is worth (stays blue).

-Les

[cordes]

I am now using a brand new set of +40's from FWD Performance that I bought a while ago. I now have the WBO2 hooked up and with a cal. from ShelGame I am running rich. The injectors were supposed to be used at 55 psi, but with that fuel pressure I am running anywhere from 9.8X to 10.2X at WOT. At 45 psi, however, I am running about 11.4x-11.5x:1 under WOT. I am going to drop pressure again to 40-42 psi tomorrow and take another pull. I have methanol injection to help the top end along, but would like to iron this out on fuel only before I introduce anything else. 40-42 psi seems a little low, though, doesn't it?
Shouldn't I be shooting for 12.5:1 at WOT?
BTW, I did calibrate the O2 sensor this morning before using it, and all findings were backed up by the Dawes Device, for what ever that is worth (stays blue).

-Les

IMO mid 11s for AFR is the way to go in one of our cars. Nice and safe. From everything I have seen there isn't too much left on the table vs. going to 12.5 or so.

Also, what cal are you running?

[fastasleep]

I am running a 3-bar cal. from ShelGame. I am still having a problem with the power going "flat" in boost, and I am assuming it is from running rich. I had a vacuum cap blow off of my vacuum tree the other day and the thing started running REALLY strongly, but got a tad lean on the top end. I figure that if I lean it out to 12.5:1 the van would run like that (or nearly) again. I didn't have the WBO2 on it the other day when the cap came off, so I could not give you a AFR to base the lean-ness off of, other than it was lean on the Dawes Device. It went red for a moment and I got off of it. The thing is just not running well under boost! It is "flat"!

-Les

[cordes]

I am running a 3-bar cal. from ShelGame. I am still having a problem with the power going "flat" in boost, and I am assuming it is from running rich. I had a vacuum cap blow off of my vacuum tree the other day and the thing started running REALLY strongly, but got a tad lean on the top end. I figure that if I lean it out to 12.5:1 the van would run like that (or nearly) again. I didn't have the WBO2 on it the other day when the cap came off, so I could not give you a AFR to base the lean-ness off of, other than it was lean on the Dawes Device. It went red for a moment and I got off of it. The thing is just not running well under boost! It is "flat"!

-Les

Get the AFR right and then start working on the timing. Go slowly and it will liven up with time.

[fastasleep]

I am at 12* right now; are you saying put a degree into it at a time, but keep the AFR at 11.5:1?

-Les

[cordes]

I am at 12* right now; are you saying put a degree into it at a time, but keep the AFR at 11.5:1?

-Les

I'm really referring to adjusting everything in the cal yourself. If you add timing with the distributor you will add it through the whole RPM and boost range. You can control all that yourself for fine tuning by using D-cal and Chem2. I thought you were doing your own cals, but if not it isn't to hard to learn. There is a decent tuning thread going on right now.

[fastasleep]

Right on. I will read it when I have an opportunity in the next day or so......

-Les