K-frame swapping

[Wink]

I realize that the K-frame can be swapped between different vehicles. I'm just wondering what extra will I need to do if I take the K-frame from a 93 Lebaron and put it and the lower control arms under my 89 Shadow. Also, with this proposed swap, I'm also planning on upgrading the front brakes from a 90 Daytona, if that matters too.

Thanks for your answers in advance,


Wink

[turbovanman²]

93 K-member must use 93 control arms, knuckles, brake caliper brackets and calipers. The good news is this makes installing 11 inch brakes a piece of pie. Look for any 91 and up Grand minivan-15 inch wheels and snag the calipers and brackets. buy 11 inch rotors for an R/T or GTC and voila, 11 inch binders.

[Wink]

so I guess the 90 knuckles with 11" disks won't work too well with the 93 K and lower control arms?


Was the bolt in Hub/bearing an option for 90?

What other identifiers would there be to signify that they are 91+ or not?


Wink

[GLHNSLHT2]

You've already got the best setup out there. 89/90 rocks. less semi sprung weight. Still the good double pivots and a sway bar style that was used from 84-90. Bolt on the 11" brake setup from a 89/90 shelby and you're done.

[turbovanman²]

so I guess the 90 knuckles with 11" disks won't work too well with the 93 K and lower control arms?


Was the bolt in Hub/bearing an option for 90?

What other identifiers would there be to signify that they are 91+ or not?


Wink

If there double hinged, it moves the wheel forward using the 90 Knuckle with the 93 control arms.

I think one model got the bolt in hub but for 91, it was standard on all models.

91 and up is easy to identify for the knuckle, the bolt spacing is further apart than the earlier models and they use fairly large bolts.

[Wink]

well, these are bolt in bearings. Can I assume that the person that sold them to me might have been mistaken about the year?

[CSX321]

You might have to drill out the holes for the steering rack to fit the bolts from the '93 K-frame.

[Wink]

are they really that different?

Cause I have a manual rack ready for this as well. Just need to make the coupler for the car.

[CSX321]

When I put one of the later K-frames in my '87 CSX, the bolts for the rack were slightly too big around to fit through the holes in the rack, so they just had to be reamed out a little bigger.

[Wink]

sound minor enough for me.

[iTurbo]

I had to slightly drill out the holes on the '87 rack (original to my Shelby Lancer) to fit the '91 K-frame as well. Very very easy to do. I recently installed a new rack and went with reman rack from NAPA for a '91 R/T so I didn't have to bother with drilling it this time.

[turbovanman²]

well, these are bolt in bearings. Can I assume that the person that sold them to me might have been mistaken about the year?

No, I can't remember but a limited number got bolt on bearings, like I said, look at the spacing for the caliper bracket.

[GLHNSLHT2]

:confused: :rolleyes: He's already got the same Kmember he's trying to swap too. Just the Control arms and sway bar are different. Then he's got brakes from a 90 Tona which I assume are the 11" setup. He's already got the advantage of dual pivots, and the lighter stamped steel arms. Why not just bolt on the 90 Tona brakes and be done with it??? Why go through all this extra work for nothing??? The 89/90 11" spindle/knuckle is lighter than the later R/T style knuckle anyway. :confused:

[Turbodave]

:confused: :rolleyes: He's already got the same Kmember he's trying to swap too. Just the Control arms and sway bar are different. Then he's got brakes from a 90 Tona which I assume are the 11" setup. He's already got the advantage of dual pivots, and the lighter stamped steel arms. Why not just bolt on the 90 Tona brakes and be done with it??? Why go through all this extra work for nothing??? The 89/90 11" spindle/knuckle is lighter than the later R/T style knuckle anyway. :confused:

Amen.

The 89 and 93 K-frames are the same other than the size of the steering rack bolts, no reason to change them.

The 93 cast A-arms move the wheel forward in the wheel well unless you use spindles from a cast arm car (91 and up). Big sway bars that fit these arms are harder to find and they are heavier than the stamped arms. I put them on my shadow about 4 years ago when you couldn't get replacement bushings for the 89-90 arms. But now thanks to Johnny at polybushings.com there is no reason to swap.

From what I've seen all the 89 and up 11" brake cars had bolt in bearings.

So just swap on the big '90 daytona brakes and your golden:thumb:

[Wink]

Works for me.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.



Wink

[turbovanman²]

From what I've seen all the 89 and up 11" brake cars had bolt in bearings.



Thats what I couldn't remember, thanks Dave, :nod:

His car is an 89, did they all come dual pivot?

[Wink]

My 89 didn't come with the dual pivot lower control arms. They have the pin/bushing at the rear and the Pivot/bushing on the front. This is the main reason I wanted to put the 93 unit in the car. At least I would be upgrading to the dual pivot control arms. Wich I hear handle better than the earlier Pin/pivot types do.

[turbovanman²]

My 89 didn't come with the dual pivot lower control arms. They have the pin/bushing at the rear and the Pivot/bushing on the front. This is the main reason I wanted to put the 93 unit in the car. At least I would be upgrading to the dual pivot control arms. Wich I hear handle better than the earlier Pin/pivot types do.

So I am not going crazy. Well to get 11 inch brakes, you need the Shelby knuckle with the built in brackets and you golden. Personally, theres nothing wrong with what you have the I prefer the bushings for your car VS the cast setup-the cast poly bushings suck. Also, your arms are lighter than the cast and a cheap upgrade, is to use Mini van control arms as there braced, and I also have a set, :eyebrows:

[Wink]

Ok. Let me see if I get this straight.

I have a good K-frame already. I could benefit from similar year/type minivan lower control arms. And I'll need the Shelby knuckle with the built in adapters in order to use my 90's brake parts. Then I'll be good?

Now if this is all I need, then I guess I'll need to source out the proper knuckles.




AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! These dodge upgrades can get rather confusing at times.

[turbovanman²]

Ok. Let me see if I get this straight.

I have a good K-frame already. I could benefit from similar year/type minivan lower control arms. And I'll need the Shelby knuckle with the built in adapters in order to use my 90's brake parts. Then I'll be good?

Now if this is all I need, then I guess I'll need to source out the proper knuckles.

.

If the 90 has 11 inch brakes, then you need the matching one piece knuckles, poly bushings, Mini van control arms and BAM, your done, :thumb:

[Wink]

These are the front assemblies I have. I was told that these are from a 90. But the way dodge is with thier parts, who actually knows anymore. Maybe the pics will help you all help me in my quest to better brakes.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/mwinkle353/The%20Headless%20Horseman/0c_1.jpg

And these are the rears I have as well. These are definately from a 87/88 Daytona.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/mwinkle353/The%20Headless%20Horseman/fd_1_b.jpg

[Wink]

If the 90 has 11 inch brakes, then you need the matching one piece knuckles, poly bushings, Mini van control arms and BAM, your done, :thumb:


Cool

I guess it doesn't sound too bad now.

[turbovanman²]

Can't see anything in the first pics, too dark.

2nd pic, yeah, rear discs for sure, I would put those on, :thumb:

[Wink]

I just went outside and put a flashlight under the car. I feel stupid now. My lower control arms are a dual pivot style. I apologise.

Now with this information, those 1990 11" disk/knuckle assemblies should just bolt right up between the strut and ball joint.

Sorry for making this harder than it had to be. Just slap me for being wrong. I could have sworn that the control arms had the stub-shaft joint.


Wink

[turbovanman²]

Now with this information, those 1990 11" disk/knuckle assemblies should just bolt right up between the strut and ball joint.



Wink

Yes, and remember to get an alignment when done.

[Wink]

Yes, and remember to get an alignment when done.



Oh, absolutely.

[Lee'sdaytona]

OK, sorry if this sort of starts the whole mess over..but I asked awhile ago about this and I can't dig up the thread over at TD.C now that I want to do this in the spring. At one time the sway bar bushing bracket bolts snapped off and someone welded the bracket back on...a half assed job. So I figured rather than trying to mess around with fixing that, I should just swap the K member. Its an 87 Daytona Pacifica, 5spd. I've been told certain minivans would be good to use since they have a stiffer bushings or something. What years of minivans could I get this from? I think the bobble strut mounting plate would have to be welded on unless I score a stick shift mini. And I guess the control arms would get changed out...but could I just keep my old brakes? I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible...any help would be great!
thanks,
Lee

[turbovanman²]

OK, sorry if this sort of starts the whole mess over..but I asked awhile ago about this and I can't dig up the thread over at TD.C now that I want to do this in the spring. At one time the sway bar bushing bracket bolts snapped off and someone welded the bracket back on...a half assed job. So I figured rather than trying to mess around with fixing that, I should just swap the K member. Its an 87 Daytona Pacifica, 5spd. I've been told certain minivans would be good to use since they have a stiffer bushings or something. What years of minivans could I get this from? I think the bobble strut mounting plate would have to be welded on unless I score a stick shift mini. And I guess the control arms would get changed out...but could I just keep my old brakes? I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible...any help would be great!
thanks,
Lee

If you go 91 or newer, you need to use 93 knuckles, arms, brakes, etc. Some say the knuckles work and give you more camber-I can't verify as personally, it moved my knuckles out 1 inch and I blew my axles on my van.

If you get an 87 K-member, use 1st gen Minivan control arms as there braced, use poly bushings as the stockers are the same as your car. Hope this makes sense.

[GLHNSLHT2]

a minivan kmember won't fit an 87 Tona. You'll need a 5spd k from any car. I'd look for 89-90, or 91+ but grab the stamped arms from an 89-90 if you can't find that year with a 5spd :)

[turbovanman²]

Or buy the bobble strut bracket from poly bushings.

[Lee'sdaytona]

a minivan kmember won't fit an 87 Tona. You'll need a 5spd k from any car. I'd look for 89-90, or 91+ but grab the stamped arms from an 89-90 if you can't find that year with a 5spd :)

Alright so I should probably just look out for an 89 or 90 Daytona with a 5 spd...should be easy enough since they show up in my yards often. So if I get this setup I still should get Poly bushings? or will they be stock on the 89-90? And what all should I grab? I know the main K frame but do I need the control arms? And after I switch this I'll have to get the car re-aligned right?
thanks,
Lee
EDIT: Oh yeah isn't the 89-90 sway bar better?

[GLHNSLHT2]

yes you'll need the arms and you'll need to drill out the bolt holes in the rack for the bigger bolts the 89+ k's use. Yes install Johnny's PB's at this time and you will need an alignment since stuff moved a bit. -1.5 in the front each side and -1.0 in the rear each side, set toe at zero and before going down there loosen the 3 bolts that hold the strut assembly to the tower and push the strut assembly as far back as you can towards the passenger compartment and tighten them back down. This will give you a bit more caster and help with handling. You can run less camber if you're not a very aggressive driver but keep the .5 degree split between front and rear. Do not Run POSITIVE camber! The least I'd run is -.5 up front and 0 in the back. But -1.0 and -.5 is decent for most drivers.

[Lee'sdaytona]

yes you'll need the arms and you'll need to drill out the bolt holes in the rack for the bigger bolts the 89+ k's use. Yes install Johnny's PB's at this time and you will need an alignment since stuff moved a bit. -1.5 in the front each side and -1.0 in the rear each side, set toe at zero and before going down there loosen the 3 bolts that hold the strut assembly to the tower and push the strut assembly as far back as you can towards the passenger compartment and tighten them back down. This will give you a bit more caster and help with handling. You can run less camber if you're not a very aggressive driver but keep the .5 degree split between front and rear. Do not Run POSITIVE camber! The least I'd run is -.5 up front and 0 in the back. But -1.0 and -.5 is decent for most drivers.
Wow I have no clue about any of that. I'll have to read up on the manual and if it still sounds too confusing, I'll pay someone to do it....
-Lee

[afsautoworx]

These are the front assemblies I have. I was told that these are from a 90. But the way dodge is with thier parts, who actually knows anymore. Maybe the pics will help you all help me in my quest to better brakes.

They look like 90's to me. The caliper bracket bolts onto the knuckle which is a tell tale sign, if they have the 11" rotor which they also look to have in the pic.

[Wink]

well, thanks for all the assistance on this. But, it's all for nothing now. The car has gone through a fire in the engine bay. Since soo much is requiring replacement, I'm just parting out the vehicle.

[carstuffer]

great job on them parts. good luck on the next ones. could i do the same with my dodge daytona strut assembly (http://www.car-stuff.com/mmparts/dodge-daytona/strut_assembly.html)? you see i also want to rebuild them. :evil:

[Directconnection]

Your '89 isn't doublt hinged? The back one is a stub strut bushing and the front is a pivot?

Swap the '93 k-frame and use the matching knuckles and control arms from the donor car. This setup does weigh a bit more, but has a much improved roll center. Get the caliper brackets from the minivan Simon said...early 90's 15" wheel minivan. Get remanned calipers from CRAPA for only $20 each on the fronts.

I did this swap on my '90 Shadow and the original rack bolted right up without issues.

Unsprung weight of the arms is a disadvantage, but I chose to go this route for the roll center that I read about. Besides, the weight increase of the cast arm (let's say 4lbs) isn't exactly like 4lbs of weight added to the wheel. The arm pivots up and down, so only a fraction of that weight will be factored... but still not a great advantage there. Other disadvatage is the swaybar. No 1-1/4" swaybar for the cast arm '91+ setups. Spirit R/Ts came with a 1-1/8" I think... (I forget, but it wasn't the sought after 1-1/4") Maybe the IROC R/T got a special 1-1/4 or even IROC V-6 cars...maybe. I got a 1-1/4" Quickor bar w/ endlinks for the cast arm setup years ago from Johnny when they were in bussiness. Maybe Poly Bushings sells one.

Pros for the '91+: more rigid control arms, better roll center...improved suspension geometry from the factory engineers.

Cons: increased unsprung weight and possibloy no 1-1/4" swaybar.

11" brakes are available for both setups. The '91+ VS '89 have different knuckles, calipers and brackets.

[Directconnection]

wow..no idea his thread was OLD!

btw...is that a tether on his calipers for the rear disc setup? hehe Solid rotors... better than drums I suppose.

[turbovanman²]

great job on them parts. good luck on the next ones. could i do the same with my dodge daytona strut assembly (http://www.car-stuff.com/mmparts/dodge-daytona/strut_assembly.html)? you see i also want to rebuild them. :evil:

Not sure what you want to rebuild?

I can finally see the pics, the top pic is the 91 and up setup, so just get some cast control arms and you can use them.

[turbovanman²]

wow..no idea his thread was OLD!

btw...is that a tether on his calipers for the rear disc setup? hehe Solid rotors... better than drums I suppose.


Tether?

I'll take any of the rear discs over drums any day, I hate drum brakes, ick! :nod:

[Directconnection]

yes...what the heck is the wire going through the pads and caliper for?

[turbovanman²]

yes...what the heck is the wire going through the pads and caliper for?

Its the clip to hold the pad in.

[Directconnection]

Doesn't look like a clip of anysorts in the pic I see. I have 2 cars with the solid disc setup and don't remember seeing that.

[turbovanman²]

Doesn't look like a clip of anysorts in the pic I see. I have 2 cars with the solid disc setup and don't remember seeing that.

Its on the older setup, with the built in e-brake in the caliper. I have a set upstairs.

[Directconnection]

ah...ok. My '90 solid disc cars have the ebrake in the hat so to speak.

[lowblow]

I have a question regarding 91+ knuckles. Is it possible to use the 91+ mini knuckles with the 91+ car k-member to obtain the larger bolt pattern(114.3 I believe)? Or would this create alignment issues?

[GLHNSLHT2]

unbolt the 4 bolts holding in the hub on the minivans and bolt them into your car spindles. But not sure why you'd want big bolt pattern only on the fronts.

[lowblow]

Sorry, should have been more specific. A friend is building a Daytona into a rear drive drag car. His 8 3/4 rear end has the bigger pattern and he was hoping to match up the front.

[GLHNSLHT2]

well your answer still applies.

[lowblow]

Thank you. He will be happy to hear that.