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View Full Version : Lifter noise!!!!!!!!! WTF?



turbovanmanČ
10-01-2007, 10:03 PM
Ok, after fixing my very noisey PS pump, I can know hear the lifters, and there very noisey, very, very noisey, so noisey there setting off my knock sensor. I seem to have good oil pressure as I am using my nearly new pump but I guess I could do an actual pressure test. I am using stock lifters and I can't see me getting 16 bad lifters. I just removed the front valve cover and all the rocker arms are loose. I checked the shaft and I did put it on right, and it is the right side so the holes are lined up. I started it and theres oil coming out of the hole on top of the rocker arm, not alot but some at idle so whats going on? Do I really have 16 bad lifters or is there maybe something wrong with the head?

88_pacifica
10-01-2007, 10:14 PM
Oh Snap! :(

iTurbo
10-02-2007, 02:32 AM
Are you using any non-stock parts as far as the head/valvetrain go?

mario03SRT
10-02-2007, 07:12 AM
Ok, after fixing my very noisey PS pump, I can know hear the lifters, and there very noisey, very, very noisey, so noisey there setting off my knock sensor. I seem to have good oil pressure as I am using my nearly new pump but I guess I could do an actual pressure test. I am using stock lifters and I can't see me getting 16 bad lifters. I just removed the front valve cover and all the rocker arms are loose. I checked the shaft and I did put it on right, and it is the right side so the holes are lined up. I started it and theres oil coming out of the hole on top of the rocker arm, not alot but some at idle so whats going on? Do I really have 16 bad lifters or is there maybe something wrong with the head?

VanMan,

Are you running a regrind cam(s). If so are your shims correct?

Or is this a stock setup and you are new to it? Maybe you have some components mixed in from another engine, a 2.4 or such.

Loose rockers does not sound good at all. As you know torque down the cam caps will load the valve springs and the rockers could not be loose.

Since the addition of the regring cam in my car I'm putting in a set of FWD "high rpm" lifters as mine chatter a little at idle but get a bit noisy after a good 3rd gear pull but it clears up in a minute or less. I'm checking my shim sizes too when it's apart soon.

Good Luck,
Marion

Turbo224
10-02-2007, 11:04 AM
How is your oil pressure at idle?

2.216VTurbo
10-02-2007, 11:22 AM
TurboJerry was playing with washers to act as 'side loading' shims. He had real success with it but he was just trying to quiet some of the ticking. He figureed out a specific sized washer, bronze IIRC. If you have real noise and the shafts are not upside down (you said the holes are lined up and you have oil) then maybe that wazoo regrind is suspect. These are the cams with the proprietary "Simon's STGII" grind right?;)

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 12:49 PM
Thanks Alan but everything is STOCK, no regrinds, stock lifters, stock everything. The holes are lined up, its just the lifters aren't pumping up. I will have to check the oil pressure properly even though my factory guage reads nice and high, just like before. It could be when the head got welded, maybe they restricted a passage, that happened to someone if I remember correctly!!!

86Shelby
10-02-2007, 12:55 PM
Did you swap any of the lifters and accidentally get the disk upside down? I could see that causing issues.

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 12:57 PM
Did you swap any of the lifters and accidentally get the disk upside down? I could see that causing issues.


I put all the lifters in and made sure the discs were there, 3 little valleys facing up, IE lifter bottom.

Pat
10-02-2007, 01:32 PM
Are they new lifters or used? I've found you really can't reinstall used lifters since the plastic "washer" that seals (goes around the lifter body) the lifter against the rocker is usually destroyed when they are removed from the rocker. Even if it's a good lifter, without that seal there, the oil drains down the side of the lifter itself, and never puts any pressure into the oil feed hole on the lifter. When this happens, they never pump up and make a racket.

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 01:49 PM
Are they new lifters or used? I've found you really can't reinstall used lifters since the plastic "washer" that seals (goes around the lifter body) the lifter against the rocker is usually destroyed when they are removed from the rocker. Even if it's a good lifter, without that seal there, the oil drains down the side of the lifter itself, and never puts any pressure into the oil feed hole on the lifter. When this happens, they never pump up and make a racket.

Man oh man, USED, ;)

But bingo, sounds like you nailed it and makes total sense. CRAP. :(

BadAssPerformance
10-02-2007, 01:59 PM
Thanks Alan but everything is STOCK, no regrinds, stock lifters, stock everything. ..

Good thing that 16v engines are cheaper to make power with... what are lifters like only $1400/set? :D

iTurbo
10-02-2007, 02:04 PM
"Only" $389:mad:

Simon, are these the lifters I sold/traded you? I even picked 16 of the nicest ones I had. Suckage!

Turbodave
10-02-2007, 02:16 PM
Good thing that 16v engines are cheaper to make power with... what are lifters like only $1400/set? :D


When I priced them from the dealer a few years back it was $160/ lifter, which came with the rocker arm. So that would be $2650 for a full set:eek:

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 02:41 PM
I am going to play with O-rings and see what happens, ;)

Nice JT, but your a little off? and remember, 2.4's are alot cheaper, :eyebrows:

Turbodave
10-02-2007, 02:54 PM
Are they new lifters or used? I've found you really can't reinstall used lifters since the plastic "washer" that seals (goes around the lifter body) the lifter against the rocker is usually destroyed when they are removed from the rocker. Even if it's a good lifter, without that seal there, the oil drains down the side of the lifter itself, and never puts any pressure into the oil feed hole on the lifter. When this happens, they never pump up and make a racket.


Pat I remember discussion about this on the RTML many years ago and I thought the plastic piece was only to aid in assembly at the factory. When I bought new lifters for my old R/T from Mark Grant? back in the day they did not come with new plastic retainers, and worked fine once I installed them. I did soak them in oil for a few days first however.

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 03:36 PM
Pat I remember discussion about this on the RTML many years ago and I thought the plastic piece was only to aid in assembly at the factory. When I bought new lifters for my old R/T from Mark Grant? back in the day they did not come with new plastic retainers, and worked fine once I installed them. I did soak them in oil for a few days first however.

It does make sense, when I undid the rocker shaft, the lifters damn near fell out, so I could see how not having that plastic ring there could make the oil find the path of least resistance-around the lifter not thru it.

I'll see if I can use an o-ring and post up. Thank god the valve covers come off easy, :amen:

Turbodave
10-02-2007, 03:43 PM
It does make sense, when I undid the rocker shaft, the lifters damn near fell out, so I could see how not having that plastic ring there could make the oil find the path of least resistance-around the lifter not thru it.

I'll see if I can use an o-ring and post up. Thank god the valve covers come off easy, :amen:

I just picture a bunch of torn up O-rings clogging your oil pickup in the pan a week from now. Make sure whatever you devise is up to the task and won't fall apart.

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 03:48 PM
I just picture a bunch of torn up O-rings clogging your oil pickup in the pan a week from now. Make sure whatever you devise is up to the task and won't fall apart.


Thanks, I'll make sure, ;)

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 04:43 PM
This is weird, just went for lunch and they were quiet? I wonder if it takes THAT long to quiet down. I've put about 400 km's on it so far.

Pat
10-02-2007, 05:06 PM
Pat I remember discussion about this on the RTML many years ago and I thought the plastic piece was only to aid in assembly at the factory. When I bought new lifters for my old R/T from Mark Grant? back in the day they did not come with new plastic retainers, and worked fine once I installed them. I did soak them in oil for a few days first however.

There are plastic retainers that hold the tip onto the valve end of the lifter, which does just make install easier but there is a seal around the top side (rocker side) of the lifter that seals the body of the lifter to the rocker arm.

To describe it, it's kind of like a piston ring sealing the piston to the cylinder walls to keep combustion pressure from blowing by the side of the piston. These lifter seals do the same thing with the oil. It keeps the oil feed from the rocker to the lifter pumping up the lifter instead of blowing the oil down the side (like blowby).

If the lifters themselves just fall out of the rocker, I'm sure that's the problem. That seal also holds them in there. If it's quiet now, I'm guessing it won't be by the end of a high rpm blast down the track.

Pat
10-02-2007, 05:07 PM
Good thing that 16v engines are cheaper to make power with... what are lifters like only $1400/set? :D


This coming from a man with a billet Daytona!!!

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 06:17 PM
There are plastic retainers that hold the tip onto the valve end of the lifter, which does just make install easier but there is a seal around the top side (rocker side) of the lifter that seals the body of the lifter to the rocker arm.

To describe it, it's kind of like a piston ring sealing the piston to the cylinder walls to keep combustion pressure from blowing by the side of the piston. These lifter seals do the same thing with the oil. It keeps the oil feed from the rocker to the lifter pumping up the lifter instead of blowing the oil down the side (like blowby).

If the lifters themselves just fall out of the rocker, I'm sure that's the problem. That seal also holds them in there. If it's quiet now, I'm guessing it won't be by the end of a high rpm blast down the track.

I would concur but what does everyone else do, I can't see every RT owner having to buy new lifters if they break the seal?

BadAssPerformance
10-02-2007, 06:29 PM
This coming from a man with a billet Daytona!!!

LOL... billet mainly just costs time ;)

GLHNSLHT2
10-02-2007, 07:16 PM
so now simon has to buy $389 worth of lifters to fix his 16v instead of $60 to fix his 8v :) hehehe

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 07:29 PM
so now simon has to buy $389 worth of lifters to fix his 16v instead of $60 to fix his 8v :) hehehe

There not that much, ;)

Either way, still miles ahead of a hogged out cylinder head, custom intake 8v setup, :amen:

Directconnection
10-02-2007, 07:32 PM
This coming from a man with a billet Daytona!!!

haha... touche'

Directconnection
10-02-2007, 07:34 PM
I would concur but what does everyone else do, I can't see every RT owner having to buy new lifters if they break the seal?

Simon, I know this is up there with the person's car not starting and someone asks if there's gas in the tank.... but you did install the lifter discs, right?

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 07:35 PM
Simon, I know this is up there with the person's car not starting and someone asks if there's gas in the tank.... but you did install the lifter discs, right?

Asked on the first page, YES!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Directconnection
10-02-2007, 07:37 PM
hehe... I read the 1st page when it was 1st written (few posts), and read the last page just now and missed everything in between.


Ok, how 'bout this? Got some earl in thar?

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 07:41 PM
hehe... I read the 1st page when it was 1st written (few posts), and read the last page just now and missed everything in between.


Ok, how 'bout this? Got some earl in thar?

lol! and yes, got lots of oil, some nice Shell Rotella 15w40, after I used cheap stuff for the initial break in.

Pat
10-02-2007, 09:40 PM
I would concur but what does everyone else do, I can't see every RT owner having to buy new lifters if they break the seal?

I honestly don't know if anyone has done anything about it yet. I've never read or heard of anyone mentioning it as being an issue. I just figured this out recently and felt like a dope for having already bought new lifters.

I'm sure there is something out there that can be used to seal them again. There is a groove that the seal fits into in the rocker, so whatever is used will have to be the right size. An O ring might do it, but something a bit harder would probably snap into that groove a bit nicer.

Let me know what you figure out because I have a ton of lifters that are probably just fine!

2.216VTurbo
10-02-2007, 10:26 PM
Thanks Alan but everything is STOCK, no regrinds, stock lifters, stock everything. The holes are lined up, its just the lifters aren't pumping up. I will have to check the oil pressure properly even though my factory guage reads nice and high, just like before. It could be when the head got welded, maybe they restricted a passage, that happened to someone if I remember correctly!!!

Thanks for bringing that up again Simon, that was me with the oil passage welded shut. Its STILL the reason the Rampage motor is not right:( Just gotta pull the head one-more-time.:banghead:

I thought you were making some super secret regrinds, did that happen?

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 10:28 PM
Thanks for bringing that up again Simon, that was me with the oil passage welded shut. Its STILL the reason the Rampage motor is not right:( Just gotta pull the head one-more-time.:banghead:

I thought you were making some super secret regrinds, did that happen?

Sorry buddy, but you mentioned yourself as the guilty party, hehhhee, ;)

Nope, haven't even though about it yet, no one's really interested so not going to spend alot of money I don't have on cams that will sit around and tie up money I could spend on other things. I can get regrinds but for now, thats all I will do.

Lotashelbys
10-03-2007, 12:17 AM
Thanks for bringing that up again Simon, that was me with the oil passage welded shut. Its STILL the reason the Rampage motor is not right:( Just gotta pull the head one-more-time.:banghead:


Sorry Alan,that was partly my fault


Simon,I have re-used lifters on about 4 cars now without that o-ring Pat talks about with no problems.

turbovanmanČ
10-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Sorry Alan,that was partly my fault


Simon,I have re-used lifters on about 4 cars now without that o-ring Pat talks about with no problems.

Interesting, well there still noisey, not as bad but noisey, :confused:

zin
10-03-2007, 03:02 AM
Are the lifters shown here: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mopartek/TIIIhead.html
Any cheaper (or even available) than the stock replacements? And does the fact they replaced the plastic w/metal help/improve this situation?

Mike

Turbodave
10-03-2007, 10:35 AM
Are the lifters shown here: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mopartek/TIIIhead.html
Any cheaper (or even available) than the stock replacements? And does the fact they replaced the plastic w/metal help/improve this situation?

Mike


I think that those are what FWD and the other vendors sell. I know back a few years ago when I bought a set I had contacted Mark Grant who had sold all of his to Cindy so I ended up getting them from her.

As far as I know the factory never sold the lifters individually, only with the rocker arm assembly.

turbovanmanČ
10-03-2007, 12:30 PM
Are the lifters shown here: http://www.hometown.aol.com/mopartek/TIIIhead.html
Any cheaper (or even available) than the stock replacements? And does the fact they replaced the plastic w/metal help/improve this situation?

Mike

Those are it, Cindy sells them for $370 ish but the plastic tip isn't the issue, if you notice on those, there is a tiny white, looks like teflon ring at the other end, thats what the issue is with the stockers, the factory uses a plastic one which breaks when you remove them. She has 2 sets left, :o

Directconnection
10-03-2007, 06:55 PM
Interesting, well there still noisey, not as bad but noisey, :confused:

I am suprised you are driving it with noisy lifters without checking oil pressure, or have you done that allready?

turbovanmanČ
10-03-2007, 07:07 PM
I am suprised you are driving it with noisy lifters without checking oil pressure, or have you done that allready?

Posts 1 and 7 but will be checking it with a real guage one day, ;)

WVRampage
10-03-2007, 09:26 PM
Could it be the 15w40 is to thick.Or is that beter Simon.

turbovanmanČ
10-03-2007, 10:48 PM
Could it be the 15w40 is to thick.Or is that beter Simon.

I doubt it, my 8 valve never had an issue with it and I believe others have run it also and there quieter when cold. I am going to check the oil pressure this weekend, bought a real oil pressure guage so going to fit it where the stock POS sits, :thumb:

mpgmike
10-03-2007, 11:33 PM
I run 0W-20 Amsoil in our R/T with no noise. I have been finding that the lighter the weight oil, the quieter things get (except for excessive rod bearing clearances). I have been running 5W-30 up to this last oil change when I switched. Try ditching the 15W-40 stuff and at least try a 10W-30 to see if that helps.

Mike

Directconnection
10-04-2007, 12:52 PM
May work, but will be a bandaid as this is telling us that something is not quite right.

turbovanmanČ
10-04-2007, 01:57 PM
I run 0W-20 Amsoil in our R/T with no noise. I have been finding that the lighter the weight oil, the quieter things get (except for excessive rod bearing clearances). I have been running 5W-30 up to this last oil change when I switched. Try ditching the 15W-40 stuff and at least try a 10W-30 to see if that helps.

Mike

No offense but I would never run an 0w20 in a turbo car. Years ago, I tried a company's synthetic RACE 0w10 or 20W oil, in my race bike, they promised me this stuff is the shiat, well one season later, my gear box was blown. Switched back to my 20w50 castrol bean oil and the new gear box lasted 5 years, :thumb:


May work, but will be a bandaid as this is telling us that something is not quite right.


Exactly. Need to get my butt to my mailbox and pick up my oil pressure guage. Will mess around with my spare cluster and try to cleanly put in a 2 1/16 guage, :thumb:

powermaxx
10-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Need to get my butt to my mailbox and pick up my oil pressure guage. Will mess around with my spare cluster and try to cleanly put in a 2 1/16 guage, :thumb:

Didn't see any mention of this (at least I didn't see it...) But I think you mentioned running a larger pulley (TI/TII style) for the Intermediate shaft? So you'd be turning the oil pump at half speed compared to a TIII setup?

Just curious as that's what I'm planning to do on my TIII.

turbovanmanČ
10-04-2007, 10:18 PM
Didn't see any mention of this (at least I didn't see it...) But I think you mentioned running a larger pulley (TI/TII style) for the Intermediate shaft? So you'd be turning the oil pump at half speed compared to a TIII setup?

Just curious as that's what I'm planning to do on my TIII.

All the info is in my lounge thread, ;)

But yes, running the 8v intermediate gear and no idler pulley.

Directconnection
10-04-2007, 10:46 PM
All the info is in my lounge thread, ;)

But yes, running the 8v intermediate gear and no idler pulley.

You did rid the engine of it's balance shafts, correct? If not, this may be your issue. 5digits trick for the T-III was to run an 8v gear to turn the intermediate shaft slower, but insisted that you remove the balance shafts as they require additional oil. Blocking them off, means it's acceptable to under-drive the oil pump even though the head uses more oil than a sohc head does. Not blocking them off means inadequate oil supply in which your lifters are telling you this allready.

turbovanmanČ
10-05-2007, 12:36 AM
No bs's, ;)

86Shelby
10-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Try to get in touch with INA to see if they might part with those o-rings seperately. OR...there was a guy on TD.com that had his sucessfully rebuilt by another company for a few bucks each.

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2007, 04:11 AM
Ok, now running synthetic 5w40, installed my electric oil pressure guage, its reading 25 psi at idle, 75 psi at 2500 rpm and there still noisey. I think my head could be bad, it was badly cracked so it could be bleeding off oil pressure somewhere, :(

Lotashelbys
11-30-2007, 11:32 AM
I guess you should of just let me put it together for ya:p

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2007, 03:32 PM
I guess you should of just let me put it together for ya:p

Come on down, I have a bed for you, ;)

Lotashelbys
11-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Come on down, I have a bed for you, ;)

First off it would be up:D

And,dude! I am so not gonna sleep next to you:yuck:

Turbodave
11-30-2007, 04:13 PM
First off it would be up:D

And,dude! I am so not gonna sleep next to you:yuck:

Just gotta remmeber what my parents' taught me: If a strange van with ticking lifters pulls up and a bald guy inside offers you candy run away as fast as you can.:bolt:

Lotashelbys
11-30-2007, 07:46 PM
Just gotta remmeber what my parents' taught me: If a strange van with ticking lifters pulls up and a bald guy inside offers you candy run away as fast as you can.:bolt:

Ha,ha,ha
Hey little girl,want some candy?

turbovanmanČ
11-30-2007, 07:48 PM
Ha,ha,ha
Hey little girl,want some candy?


Thats what I was thinking, ;)

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2008, 04:25 PM
Well after changing out a head gasket last night, I checked each rocker arm to see if any were loose, I had 2 in the front and 4 in the rear that you could easily move up and down. I had bought some updated lifters off a member, so I installed those, the 4 rear ones were totally collasped and the front 2 were very soft. Got it running and after a few hours of running, its almost quiet, yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

black86glhs
06-07-2008, 05:31 PM
Simon, So 6 of the lifters were actually bad?
Also, I can't remember what it was I used them on, but I have gotten some white teflon orings that have a really small diameter. Wondering if the would be good to use around the lifter to hold it on the rocker?

turbovanmanČ
06-07-2008, 05:36 PM
Simon, So 6 of the lifters were actually bad?
Also, I can't remember what it was I used them on, but I have gotten some white teflon orings that have a really small diameter. Wondering if the would be good to use around the lifter to hold it on the rocker?

Yes, probably have 40 or so used lifters so its a crap shoot. It looks like I had 6 bad ones as its almost dead quiet now, :thumb:

The updated ones I bought do have teflon rings to keep the nose piece installed and I think Cindy's new ones are metal. They used to be a plastic ring that held the lifter in the rocker arm but they usually break when remove them. Those will be hard to copy as there so tiny.

black86glhs
06-08-2008, 04:54 PM
Glad it was the lifters and not the head.:clap:
It is nice to see someone did something about the plastic.

Xtrempickup
06-08-2008, 04:58 PM
isnt it fun replacing these little sh*ts, i replaced about 4 in the front and 3 or 4 in the rear. mine is fairly quiet, not perfect, but im not breaking up my new set for this yet

turbovanmanČ
06-08-2008, 05:39 PM
isnt it fun replacing these little sh*ts, i replaced about 4 in the front and 3 or 4 in the rear. mine is fairly quiet, not perfect, but im not breaking up my new set for this yet

I actually find it quite easy, just as long as the little swivel tip has a retainer, if not then yep, a nightmare. :(
Grease works great for holding the entire lifter in, :clap:

Update, after some more driving time, its quiet, amen, :hail: