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fastasleep
09-22-2007, 07:24 PM
I just flew to Bloomington, IL last night and picked up my new mini. '90 Plymouth Voyager, 2.5T/a413, silver on grey, A/C works, 179,000 miles; it has no mods except that the balance shafts have been removed, a 3" catless exhaust has been added,drop in K&N and a good tune up with a new stock fuel pump.
I drove it 700-some miles today back to Atlanta with no problems other than the overboost issue, the boost reference line coming off of the barb for the MAP sensor and it used a gallon of oil (yikes!). I don't have a boost guage on it, but I am sure it is around the 13-14 psi mark to be cutting like it is. The van isn't smoking and makes great power up until it falls on its face, but I am kinda worried about the oil. I haven't looked at it yet, but I did notice a ping up top while in the boost, so I stayed out of it the rest of the way home. I think the cartridge may be bypassing oil on the compressor side, but I haven't looked in the TB yet, so it is just a guess (although it seems like it would smoke still, even if it wasn't bypassing much on the turbine side). I'll pull/read plugs and do a compression and leakdown test tomorrow; kinda tired from the drive.
BUT, man am I ready to get started on this thing! BTW, I passed one of those CAT Scales early this morning and couldn't resist. 3340 lbs. is what the readout said. Not too shabby, plus it is still full interior, plus extras that were thrown in were in the back. I don't think 2900 lbs. will be too hard to diet down to. Obviously, the first thing is to check all the systems for proper function and do a good PM, but damn (!) I can't wait to start installing go-fast parts.:evil:
Any thoughts?

-Les

Dez
09-22-2007, 09:15 PM
It's going to need a freshening up since it chugged all that oil.

Good luck on it tho, and have fun. :]

fastasleep
09-22-2007, 09:45 PM
Yeah, I figured so. I already have a ported head, intake, and exhaust mani from an '86 Shelby Z 2.2T. I was hoping to rebuild the shortblock from the '89 Caravan turbo I have and put the 2.2 head on it and replace what is in the Voyager now. Both have the "782" number cast on them; aren't they the same head (cc size)? Is the '89 and '90 engine the same (common block)? Wait............I know.................I'll use the search engine!

-Les

BadAssPerformance
09-22-2007, 10:49 PM
Welcome :thumb:

fastasleep
09-23-2007, 10:35 AM
Kinda thinking it is a piston. I put a line directly from the compressor housing to the wastegate actuator, so the thing will only see low boost. If I stay into it for a long time, I don't get knock, but it will cut out and then come back again. I don't think that the MAP is telling it to cut because the signal reference from the MAP couldn't be that high at the boost level I am running. I guess that would explain the oil consumption.

-Les

2.216VTurbo
09-23-2007, 12:42 PM
You know Les for a self professed Noob, you sure sound like you know what you are doing:amen: I think that van is in good hands;) Not sure how you could go thru a quart of oil every 150 or so miles and not have smoke:confused2: I dont think it can get past the turbo center section and not have the telltale blue/white exhaust under boost. Have you done a compression check yet? The intermittant pinging is kid of worrysome, sounds like fuel delivary to me. even with a fresh fuel pump there could still be a filter/gunk in tank/whatever problem...

fastasleep
09-23-2007, 09:52 PM
Okay, I didn't do the compression test today; kinda got sidetracked. After messing with the mini for a while, I ended up getting a no boost issue. I retraced my work. The only thing I did was make sure there were no cracks in the fuel pressure reg. boost/vac reference line (thinking it could be bleeding boost, thus not putting enough pressure on diaphram under boost, thus getting a ping), and made a dedicated line to the MAP, rerouting all the other hoses that were T'd off of that line. Also, I checked the TB for oil and it was surprisingly clean; which leads me to think it is a piston even more.
Anyway, back to the no boost issue. After I let it cool down (damn that thing stays hot under the hood for a long time!), I checked the wastegate actuator rod. It had fallen off. So, I put it back on---problem solved.
I then went to a buddy's house and gathered some of my stuff for it (injectors, head, etc.) so I didn't get a chance to do all I wanted. I let it idle the whole time I was at his house and eventually it began to smoke from the tailpipe. Is this a symptom of a bad piston, or does it sound like oil dripping down the valve stem? I revved a couple of times and it mostly cleaned up, but it is still there a little- hard to see when driving.
I am going to T into the sig reference line tomorrow with my Fluke and put a boost guage on it to see exactly what is going on. Also, if it truly was fuel cutting, wouldn't it throw a code?
Sorry about the questions. I am kinda new to the turbo Dodges.

-Les

fastasleep
09-23-2007, 09:56 PM
Oh yeah, I have a Powerstruggle intercooler to go on it, but since the a/c works I would kinda like to keep it. Can anyone suggest a different intercooler that flows/cools well that will fit in my van?

-Les

t3rse
09-23-2007, 11:17 PM
you need to do a compression check, this could be anything from valve stem seals to weeping head gasket to cracked ringlands...unless you are having some crazy blow by pcv won't smoke...

Directconnection
09-23-2007, 11:38 PM
Sorry about the questions. I am kinda new to the turbo Dodges.

-Les

Don't ever worry about asking questions here. That is what this forum is for and why we read and answer posts here at turbomopar;)

BTW.... welcome!

turbovanmanČ
09-24-2007, 07:36 AM
Welcome, :clap:

Cats can mask burning oil.

I have seen cars/vans overboost with no code.

You definatley need a boost guage to see whats going on.

The 86 exhaust manifold won't have the notch for the one piece intake so you'll have to grind it out, you;'ll see what I mean when you go to install it. ;)

Check out my thread on my IC install and keeping the a/c. Some others have done it differently and mention it too so it will give you some ideas.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2904&highlight=moved

85shelbycharger
09-24-2007, 09:56 AM
Welcome aboard! :wave1:

87turbodance
09-24-2007, 01:12 PM
You say that you have 3" with no cat? And a Mitsu turbo I assume? That combo right there will overboost. Swap to a garret turbo to rid yourself of the overboost with 3" exhaust.

fastasleep
09-24-2007, 07:38 PM
Okay guys, help me out. I did the compression check today. Results are as follows:
1=115 psi
2=118 psi
3=118 psi
4=120 psi
Now I'm puzzled. Can I have that much compression with a broken ring land? I had a broken ring land between the 1st and 2nd ring lands on a piston I pulled from another engine, but I don't see how that would allow the ring to seal well against the wall because it seems the air/fuel charge to be compressed/pressurize the ring against the wall could not pressurize the ring before it escaped past the underside of the first ring, thus presenting a very low compression number. True or not?
Here's another problem: I said I had a ping up top while in boost. When I pulled the plugs, all 4 were completely white representing a hot/lean condition and the ceramic covering the electrode was GONE all the way up into the jacket. Also, the gap looked to be about .038. I replaced the Champion rn9yc's with an NGK in the same heat range. I filed the straps and tightened the gap to .028, hoping to rid myself of what could be a misfire under boost.
Also, because the plugs were showing lean, I checked the fuel pressure. Static pressure was 54 psi at idle and 46 psi with the ref. line on at idle. I switched the FPR to an AFPR and ran the static fuel pressure to 64 psi. This was about 56~58 psi with the line on.
I took it for a drive with the same symptoms. The van would boost, then fall over (cut out, lose ALL power), then regain strength like nothing had happened in a split second.
I did not yet put a boost guage on it (yes, I know, put a damned boost guage on it), nor have I read the MAP reference signal.
Anyone have any ideas?

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-24-2007, 08:07 PM
You don't have a cracked piston yet but keep doing what your doing and you will, :(

90 psi is a cracked piston.

You need to get an AF guage and a boost guage before you do anything else. What does your fuel pressure do in boost? it could be weak and running out of volume. Have it idling and pinch the return line, what do you for max pressure?

fastasleep
09-24-2007, 09:24 PM
Turbovanman, I thought about that; volume vs. pressure. If I was under boost for an extended period of time, the fuel rail could be running out of fuel. The van has a new stock pump in it, but I am guessing that if it is boosting higher than stock it probably cannot supply enough fuel. Do you have a 255 in-tank for sale?
I ordered a Dawes Devices nb monitor, along with a boost controller and cutout eliminator. I will use the monitor to see where I am air/fuel wise before I do any other boost mods.
I will go to Summit this week and pick up a boost guage and fuel pressure guage; these, along with the Dawes Device monitor, should tell me much.
BTW, if it is not a cracked piston, where is all the oil going?

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-24-2007, 09:42 PM
Turbovanman, I thought about that; volume vs. pressure. If I was under boost for an extended period of time, the fuel rail could be running out of fuel. The van has a new stock pump in it, but I am guessing that if it is boosting higher than stock it probably cannot supply enough fuel. Do you have a 255 in-tank for sale?
I ordered a Dawes Devices nb monitor, along with a boost controller and cutout eliminator. I will use the monitor to see where I am air/fuel wise before I do any other boost mods.
I will go to Summit this week and pick up a boost guage and fuel pressure guage; these, along with the Dawes Device monitor, should tell me much.
BTW, if it is not a cracked piston, where is all the oil going?

-Les


A good stock pump can supply 18 psi but thats about it.

All those guages are nice, make sure to get an electric fuel pressure guage, you don't want to have a fuel line into the cabin.

If your loosing oil, its either rings or turbo. How do the plugs look?

fastasleep
09-24-2007, 09:55 PM
Plugs are white as snow (way lean), but the compressor housing, compressor housing to TB hose, and TB are all clean (squeeky). If I let the van sit and idle for a long time, the van will begin to give the old blue-ish smoke and there is visible soot on the panel behind the tail pipe (exits under side door).
Yes, I don't really care for fuel under pressure in the cabin with me, so I will be buying an electric guage for fuel.
Also, I may buy and srt4 ic from a guy at work. I told him to let me see if I could mock it up before I bought it and he was cool with that. I read your input on the srt4 ic into a van, and was wondering if you have that twin core ic that you mentioned still; I could use it.

-Les

Aries_Turbo
09-24-2007, 10:24 PM
les, welcome aboard!

few issues you are having....

fact...the van is still non intercooled and you seem to be running the stock mitsu turbo.

1. even with the line straight to the wastegate, the wastegate itself cannot bleed enough exhaust energy past the turbine so the turbo eventually creeps to overboost. the garrett turbo has a larger wastegate and prevents this for the most part. the 3" exhaust that you have on the van makes it impossible for the boost to stay under cutout with the mitsu turbo.

2. the van is non intercooled. even if you have the fuel to support 14lbs of boost (you most likely do) the air is so hot out of the mitsu turbo that you overcome the knock retard buffer of 15 degrees till you hear an audible ping. the factory knock detection system has the ability to pull 15 degrees of timing under knock conditions (ie not enough fuel or really hot air or too much timing etc) and keep things quiet but when you overcome that, you will hear the audible knock and it will pop that motor.

oil burning. look for leaks under the van. also, alot of times turbos will leak the oil right out the exhaust side of the turbo and into the exhaust. my k car does this.

be careful with the cutout raiser. i myself wouldnt use it. I would take a soup can and cut a 1.5-2" hole in the bottom and clamp it tightly over the end of the 3" piping to restrict the exhaust a little to keep the turbo from overboosting. it works. progresso soup cans work well.

the dawes is a rough estimate of the mix and cannot be taken as gospel. but combine that with a EGT gauge and a scanner to monitor knock(OTC 2000, 4000E and 4000 enhanced work well with our cars) and you have enough info to make things safe. wideband o2 is best though.

just take things slow and youll be fine. :) an intercooler will help with safety.

good luck. you wont get yelled at for asking here instead of using the search feature. we like to answer questions and it builds friendships helping people out and creates a good community. plus it keeps us all sharp. if someone yells at you to use search, tell me and ill yell at them for being lazy and not helping out.

Brian

turbovanmanČ
09-24-2007, 10:50 PM
Plugs are white as snow (way lean), but the compressor housing, compressor housing to TB hose, and TB are all clean (squeeky). If I let the van sit and idle for a long time, the van will begin to give the old blue-ish smoke and there is visible soot on the panel behind the tail pipe (exits under side door).
Yes, I don't really care for fuel under pressure in the cabin with me, so I will be buying an electric guage for fuel.
Also, I may buy and srt4 ic from a guy at work. I told him to let me see if I could mock it up before I bought it and he was cool with that. I read your input on the srt4 ic into a van, and was wondering if you have that twin core ic that you mentioned still; I could use it.

-Les

I doubt you can get an SRT IC to work if you want a/c. I don't have a twin core for sale, must be someone else. I have the old RX7 IC still, is that what your thinking of?


les, welcome aboard!

few issues you are having....

fact...the van is still non intercooled and you seem to be running the stock mitsu turbo.

1. even with the line straight to the wastegate, the wastegate itself cannot bleed enough exhaust energy past the turbine so the turbo eventually creeps to overboost. the garrett turbo has a larger wastegate and prevents this for the most part. the 3" exhaust that you have on the van makes it impossible for the boost to stay under cutout with the mitsu turbo.

2. the van is non intercooled. even if you have the fuel to support 14lbs of boost (you most likely do) the air is so hot out of the mitsu turbo that you overcome the knock retard buffer of 15 degrees till you hear an audible ping. the factory knock detection system has the ability to pull 15 degrees of timing under knock conditions (ie not enough fuel or really hot air or too much timing etc) and keep things quiet but when you overcome that, you will hear the audible knock and it will pop that motor.

oil burning. look for leaks under the van. also, alot of times turbos will leak the oil right out the exhaust side of the turbo and into the exhaust. my k car does this.

be careful with the cutout raiser. i myself wouldnt use it. I would take a soup can and cut a 1.5-2" hole in the bottom and clamp it tightly over the end of the 3" piping to restrict the exhaust a little to keep the turbo from overboosting. it works. progresso soup cans work well.

the dawes is a rough estimate of the mix and cannot be taken as gospel. but combine that with a EGT gauge and a scanner to monitor knock(OTC 2000, 4000E and 4000 enhanced work well with our cars) and you have enough info to make things safe. wideband o2 is best though.

just take things slow and youll be fine. :) an intercooler will help with safety.

good luck. you wont get yelled at for asking here instead of using the search feature. we like to answer questions and it builds friendships helping people out and creates a good community. plus it keeps us all sharp. if someone yells at you to use search, tell me and ill yell at them for being lazy and not helping out.

Brian


All good points but for a stock engine, I personally think a wideband is pointless. As long as the oxygen sensor is good-OEM or NTK, the Dawes is dead nuts accurate.

And use the friggin search function, :confused: :clap:

2.216VTurbo
09-25-2007, 02:28 AM
How certain are you about your cam timing? You have such even numbers across the board but they are all a bit low, kinda like when you are a tooth retarded on the cam. Those numbers are usually right about 100 though...

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 12:41 PM
I am not certain on the cam timing. I was thinking that the compression #'s were too high to have the valve timing retarded. Also, the van makes great power down low; if the cam was retarded, wouldn't it make power later in the RPM band? I am thinking the knock sensor is seeing too much knock and then pulling all my timing, but I am getting no check engine light. Also, where the hell is the oil going?

-Les

Thanks again for all your help guys! I'll keep working 'til I figure it out!

turbovanmanČ
09-25-2007, 12:43 PM
I am not certain on the cam timing. I was thinking that the compression #'s were too high to have the valve timing retarded. Also, the van makes great power down low; if the cam was retarded, wouldn't it make power later in the RPM band? I am thinking the knock sensor is seeing too much knock and then pulling all my timing, but I am getting no check engine light. Also, where the hell is the oil going?

-Les

Thanks again for all your help guys! I'll keep working 'til I figure it out!


I've asked before, grrrrrrrrrr, what do your spark plugs look like? :mad:

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 03:56 PM
I've asked before, grrrrrrrrrr, what do your spark plugs look like? :mad:

I thought I had answered about the plugs in a post on page 1; sorry. The plugs, which were totally dry and white as snow (super lean/hot) were in bad shape. The ceramic around the electrode on each plug was completely GONE all the way up into the jacket. Also, the plugs were gapped to what looked like .038. They were new (before the trip from IL to GA) Champion RN9YC's. I replaced with new NGK plugs of the same heat range, filed the straps a little shorter and tightened the gap to .028. I drove it after changing the plugs and putting an AFPR (running the static pressure up 10 psi to about 64 psi *if I remember correctly*), but still had the same syptoms.
But to answer the question, the plugs were dry and white.

-Les

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 04:01 PM
Okay guys, help me out. I did the compression check today. Results are as follows:
1=115 psi
2=118 psi
3=118 psi
4=120 psi
Now I'm puzzled. Can I have that much compression with a broken ring land? I had a broken ring land between the 1st and 2nd ring lands on a piston I pulled from another engine, but I don't see how that would allow the ring to seal well against the wall because it seems the air/fuel charge to be compressed/pressurize the ring against the wall could not pressurize the ring before it escaped past the underside of the first ring, thus presenting a very low compression number. True or not?
Here's another problem: I said I had a ping up top while in boost. When I pulled the plugs, all 4 were completely white representing a hot/lean condition and the ceramic covering the electrode was GONE all the way up into the jacket. Also, the gap looked to be about .038. I replaced the Champion rn9yc's with an NGK in the same heat range. I filed the straps and tightened the gap to .028, hoping to rid myself of what could be a misfire under boost.
Also, because the plugs were showing lean, I checked the fuel pressure. Static pressure was 54 psi at idle and 46 psi with the ref. line on at idle. I switched the FPR to an AFPR and ran the static fuel pressure to 64 psi. This was about 56~58 psi with the line on.
I took it for a drive with the same symptoms. The van would boost, then fall over (cut out, lose ALL power), then regain strength like nothing had happened in a split second.
I did not yet put a boost guage on it (yes, I know, put a damned boost guage on it), nor have I read the MAP reference signal.
Anyone have any ideas?

-Les

Turbovanman,

I agree with you that the oil has to be going past the rings or out the turbo; but with the plugs being sooooo dry, I don't think it could be the rings (?). I may have to pull the downpipe tonight to see if there is a ton of oil present. Yes?

-Les

Thanks for all your help. I also appreciate your patience and will try to answer your questions fully. If I don't make sense, please let me know as I know my terminology may be incorrect for certian pieces.

turbovanmanČ
09-25-2007, 04:43 PM
I thought I had answered about the plugs in a post on page 1; sorry. The plugs, which were totally dry and white as snow (super lean/hot) were in bad shape. The ceramic around the electrode on each plug was completely GONE all the way up into the jacket. Also, the plugs were gapped to what looked like .038. They were new (before the trip from IL to GA) Champion RN9YC's. I replaced with new NGK plugs of the same heat range, filed the straps a little shorter and tightened the gap to .028. I drove it after changing the plugs and putting an AFPR (running the static pressure up 10 psi to about 64 psi *if I remember correctly*), but still had the same syptoms.
But to answer the question, the plugs were dry and white.

-Les

I saw that and wanted to see what the new plugs looked like as you seem to have put some miles on her. The missing ceramic is detonation.


Turbovanman,

I agree with you that the oil has to be going past the rings or out the turbo; but with the plugs being sooooo dry, I don't think it could be the rings (?). I may have to pull the downpipe tonight to see if there is a ton of oil present. Yes?

-Les

Thanks for all your help. I also appreciate your patience and will try to answer your questions fully. If I don't make sense, please let me know as I know my terminology may be incorrect for certian pieces.

Well based on the plugs, it seems like your turbo is shot. You can also remove the plugs, get one of those tiny flexible lights and look at the piston tops, if there completely black, then its valve seals or turbo, if at 12 oclock there clean and wet, rings are shot.

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 05:22 PM
I'll check out the pistons tonight. I had only driven the van long enough to see if the symptoms were still there, and they were. I pulled the plugs after teh short trip and saw that the plugs were white again and still dry.
What do you mean by "at 12 o'clock"? Are you talking about how the pattern on the piston is oriented (like coming down around the valve), or what? I will look tonight.

-Les

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 05:23 PM
Also, it seems that the increased fuel pressure didn't help much. I have a set of +20% injectors; should I throw those in too?

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-25-2007, 06:19 PM
I'll check out the pistons tonight. I had only driven the van long enough to see if the symptoms were still there, and they were. I pulled the plugs after teh short trip and saw that the plugs were white again and still dry.
What do you mean by "at 12 o'clock"? Are you talking about how the pattern on the piston is oriented (like coming down around the valve), or what? I will look tonight.

-Les

As in looking at the cylinder thru the spark plug hole, 12 oclock is directly in front of you, then 3 oclock to the right and so on.


Also, it seems that the increased fuel pressure didn't help much. I have a set of +20% injectors; should I throw those in too?

-Les


Don't keep guessing, wait until you get the AF guage hooked up.

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 08:44 PM
Okay, I will. I am waiting on the Dawes Device monitor now. I hope I get it soon. Funny, the second time I read your advice about looking at 12 o'clock, I knew exactly what you meant. Thanks.

-Les

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 11:16 PM
Okay, I looked at each piston tonight. The plugs seem to be normal. They are dry and the straps are brownish/tan with no sign of detonation on the ceramic (although I did hear spark knock on the way home tonight going up a hill). It appears that the pistons are wet all around the perimeter of the piston, but the center seems dry on each piston. I did see wetness at 12 o'clock, but it continued around to 9 o'clock as well. From what I could see, the wetness went all the way around though, it is just that I could stare at the 9-12 position with the light I had. Am I making sense? What do you think?
I am running 93 octane. Also, I may have jumped to conclusions when I said the AFPR didn't make a lot of difference. After pulling these plugs, it looks as if it did. Also, on the top of the pistons, there was noticable detonation specs (clear specs of cast aluminum) present.

-Les

fastasleep
09-25-2007, 11:20 PM
Turbovanman,

You said that if the pistons were CLEAN and wet at 12 o'clock, rings were shot. Well, they are not any cleaner at 12 o'clock than at any other spot on the top of the piston. Wetness goes all the way around the perimeter of piston, with a silver dollar-sized dry patch in the dish.

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-25-2007, 11:40 PM
Turbovanman,

You said that if the pistons were CLEAN and wet at 12 o'clock, rings were shot. Well, they are not any cleaner at 12 o'clock than at any other spot on the top of the piston. Wetness goes all the way around the perimeter of piston, with a silver dollar-sized dry patch in the dish.

-Les

If thats the case, then your rings are sound. Its really obvious, the piston tops will be black/wet and at 12 oclock, its spotless which isn't your case. You it looks like the turbo is your problem.

fastasleep
09-26-2007, 12:25 AM
I have another Mitsu turbo off of the Caravan. Do you have a Garrett? I was also thinking that the "falling on its face" symptom could be that there is so much shaft play in the turbo that under boost the turbine wheel or compressor wheel is hitting their respective housings, causing the compressor to stop compressing momentarily.
Shouldn't there be a ton of oil in my muffler by now? lol!

-Les

fastasleep
09-26-2007, 10:03 AM
I found a Garrett with the Dodge flange that feels pretty good in my parts bin. Would you recommend using that instead of the Mitsu due to the overboost issue with the Mitsu?
I also have a turbo off of an '86 Shelby Z, a brand new HX35 and a Turbonetics T3/T4 (but to use this, I would have to take it off the Miata and find a mani with a T3 flange, same with the HX35).

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-26-2007, 12:42 PM
I found a Garrett with the Dodge flange that feels pretty good in my parts bin. Would you recommend using that instead of the Mitsu due to the overboost issue with the Mitsu?
I also have a turbo off of an '86 Shelby Z, a brand new HX35 and a Turbonetics T3/T4 (but to use this, I would have to take it off the Miata and find a mani with a T3 flange, same with the HX35).

-Les

Garret is a way better option and is easier to control, boost wise. One of those with street tires, small IC got me 14.1 in the 1/4 with a stock computer, :clap:

You can use the 86 turbo, you need a TII compressor cover or make your own-go here-

TII turbo conversion (http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_con.html)

I would suggest getting some braided lines from vendors and you can reuse your old DP if its 2.5 inch.

Theres a header for sale with a T3 flange on here or you can drill and modify the stocker, or buy a T3 flanged header.

fastasleep
09-26-2007, 02:45 PM
I have the compressor housing already. It came from Forward Motion when I bought the injectors, AFPR, the computer for the Shelby and fuel pump. I will use the Garrett until I get the intercooler piped in (bought one off of an SRT4) and guages installed. I also have cobbled together enough parts to do methanol injection.

-Les

fastasleep
09-26-2007, 08:33 PM
I took the intake pipe off of the compressor inlet and it was dry. The turbo had little shaft play and no end play. I took the down pipe off of the swingvalve and it was dry, too; BONE dry. I had much soot in it as if it was rich, but the oxy sensor was not sooty, but tan and clean. Is this valve seals, then?

-Les

Turbodave
09-27-2007, 12:31 PM
How about the PCV system? It's a long shot, but something to look into. See if there is a bunch of oil in the line going from the PCV valve to the intake. If it's sucking in oil that can make it more likely to ping, and can obviously cause it to burn oil as well.

fastasleep
09-27-2007, 03:01 PM
I will check the CV to see if it has a wet line. This thing has me puzzled; with the plugs being dry, the turbo inlet/outlet being dry and the concrete under the van being dry, I just can't seem to put my finger on where SO MUCH oil is going! I am thinking (after reading turbovanman's post that it could be the valve guides/seals). I was also told these heads are prone to wear them quickly; don't know if it is true or not. But wouldn't that still put much oil on the plugs?

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-27-2007, 03:28 PM
I will check the CV to see if it has a wet line. This thing has me puzzled; with the plugs being dry, the turbo inlet/outlet being dry and the concrete under the van being dry, I just can't seem to put my finger on where SO MUCH oil is going! I am thinking (after reading turbovanman's post that it could be the valve guides/seals). I was also told these heads are prone to wear them quickly; don't know if it is true or not. But wouldn't that still put much oil on the plugs?

-Les

Definately weird. I would drive it somemore so the plugs can get a good read, might take a few 100miles to show anything.

fastasleep
09-28-2007, 09:52 PM
I finally put a boost guage on it. Vac. was fine (about 18 Hg), but it would boost to over 20 psi before the cutout cut out! Jeeeez; this thing isn't even intercooled yet (ouch). I was able to see that with the vac/boost line off of the wastegate actuator can that it was still overboosting. I see now what you were talking about when you said that the Mitsu turbo could not waste enough exhaust to eliminate boost creep. I looked again at the Shelby Z; I think I am going to use the turbo from that (Garrett with the newer compressor housing).
I drove it over 100 miles today, used some oil. Checked the plugs and they are dry and tan on the strap, with a little soot buildup all the way around the circumference of the plug where the strap connects to the jacket. That soot was dry too; looked as if I had let it idle without the FPR line on and then pulled the plugs.
I will drive some more tomorrow; I know you said it may take a few hundred to get a good read.
I also found out today that the oil has been replaced with Mobil 1 5W-30 (ouch!) I am going to change the oil tomorrow to 15W-40. Maybe the rocker assy. will be a little quieter then!
While idling, there are pulses of air coming out of the oil fill hole. Not like a huge amount, but enough to feel pulses. Does this tell me anything about the state of my rings? I have already looked at the pistons, but I may do it again tomorrow to see if I missed anything.

Sorry about the long windedness, but I am so ready to modify, I can hardly stand it. I was leaving school last night and lined up with an older WRX at a stop light. Damn, damn, damn!

-Les

Aries_Turbo
09-29-2007, 08:18 AM
did you do a compression test? i cant remember.

hopefully your pistons are ok after all that overboosting with the mitsu and the audible detonation.

yeah the garrett will help with the overboost. i would still port the wastegate hole on the garrett anyway before you put it on. with the hole still the stock size and the flapper the whole way open, i used to get 15psi in 5th gear in my k car. other gears id get nothing though.

Brian

turbovanmanČ
09-29-2007, 10:15 PM
The puffing out of the oil fill hole is normal.

If your boosting over 20 psi, its a wonder its still in one piece. I would just drive it and then you will be able to see where the oil is going. I would redo the compression test-disconnect the HEP so you disable the fuel and spark and then just drive it. I bet the rings are shot.

fastasleep
09-29-2007, 10:40 PM
The puffing out of the oil fill hole is normal.

If your boosting over 20 psi, its a wonder its still in one piece. I would just drive it and then you will be able to see where the oil is going. I would redo the compression test-disconnect the HEP so you disable the fuel and spark and then just drive it. I bet the rings are shot.


What is the HEP? I am trying to swing a deal for some forged pistons and such. As soon as I know if I can get some, I'll do an in-frame.

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-29-2007, 10:53 PM
What is the HEP? I am trying to swing a deal for some forged pistons and such. As soon as I know if I can get some, I'll do an in-frame.

-Les

Hep is the plastic disc under the distributor cap with 2 wires coming out. If you unplug them, you disable fuel and spark. Its an easy way to do it.

You can't used forged when doing an in van swap. Forged pistons require more bore clearance than the cast you have in there. You will need to have the block bored out or honed by a machine shop to fit the pistons.

Vigo
09-29-2007, 10:55 PM
I absolutely do not want to come off rude here, but i feel like you've been ignoring some important advice here.


One of your symptoms: Audible ping.

Relevant info given to you: You CANNOT stop boost from creeping beyond what you intend with a 3" exhaust on the mitsu turbo because of a physical design limitation. This is proven out x100, not made up. This should have been your first clue to stop going WOT immediately.

However, you also got a second important piece of information: Audible ping means your ignition timing is ALREADY retarded 15 freaking degrees and its still pinging so hard you can hear it even in a van with a wide open exhaust at WOT.

Im not insulting you, but you are lucky it has held together, and ignoring this kind of stuff is what makes people eventually start to berate you and ignore you and treat you bad when you come in here for help.

Just ask Simon about how people treat him sometimes (ROFL :p )

So be attentive to future advice, and good luck with the van :)

fastasleep
09-30-2007, 01:13 PM
Yeah, no problem. It is not that I am ignoring any advice, as I know you guys have been through this already. I have been using this van as a dd, so I cannot keep from driving it. Also, I work full time + and go to school full time, so my schedule is tight. This doesn't leave me a lot of time to work on the van. The only reason I boosted it the other day was because I finally put a boost guage on it and wanted to see where I was. Before I did it, though, I added some race gas and checked the timing. I have ordered parts from 3 bar racing (to monitor air/fuel), bought a front mount intercooler, ordered I/C piping, gathered my other head (to swap onto the van, hoping to get rid of a head that needs attention (valve stem seals/guides), gathered the bigger injectors and fuel pressure regulator, ordered a 255 lph pump and bid on some bearings and rings for the bottom end. It is not that I am ignoring anyone, but even if I had the time to work on the van right now, the parts have not yet arrived, nor have all the auctions ended.
I understand that the audible pinging is bad. I also understand that I cannot control boost creep with this turbo/exhaust combination. I retrieved the Garrett turbo off the Shelby along with the head to fix this, but to me there is no reason to change the turbo today and have to remove the head tomorrow; kinda wanted to do it all at the same time. I know that this limits the probability of me finding what the root cause of my problems are by changing many things at once, but I am limited by time and need to fix the root cause of my problems, not just the symptoms. I agree with turbovanman that my rings may be shot; I just can't see where else THAT MUCH oil could be going when I can't see it. Dunno.
Keep in mind that I am not new to turbos or engines (although by NO means am I an expert, but I understand fundamentals); just turbo Dodges. That is why I came here.
Vigo, I AM lucky it has held together! I have not disregarded any information here. By posting more information, I am just trying to give any helpful information to diagnose my problem. No offense taken, really! I don't mean to come off like I am ignoring anyone. I just wanted to give what information I can find to you guys so you can decipher some of it.
What it seems like to me is this:

1. Obviously the turbo/exhaust combo will not allow me to control boost. No amount of fuel, timing retard, I/C'ing is going to allow me to run with this combo because the turbo will spin so uncontrollably fast that the compressed air coming from it will be too hot to be helpful.
My fix: change the turbo to the Garrett off of the Shelby.
2. Oil loss: turbo is dry on both sides and the intake has no oil in it. The oil is not leaking on the ground, so it must be burning it. The oil must be entering the chamber by running down the valve stem or by getting by the rings (also causing detonation).
My fix: put a recently rebuilt head on it with an MP 005 gasket and re-ring while I have the head off. While I am there, I will replace the bearings, oil pump and replace the main cap bolts with ARP studs.
3. The pinging is from too much boost/not enough fuel/too much timing/no I/C.
My fix: install front mount I/C, boost controller along with the Garrett turbo, 255 lph pump. I installed the AFPR on it already. Use A/F guage and read plugs to see how close I am to stoich.

Any more suggestions? Really guys, I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just want to make sure I get everything I need before beginning. I love this van and want it to run correctly!

Thanks again for ALL of your help.

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-30-2007, 03:24 PM
You've got all the bases covered, getting a head redone with another turbo is a great way to get her done without alot of downtime, EXCEPT you can't run Main studs without getting the main bores measured for roundness and 99% of the time, it will need an align bore. Maybe you meant ARP head studs? :confused:

You sound like me, changing too many things at once, but once you get it all together, turn the boost up slowly, :D

I didn't see any mention of a BOV? and also no mention of a new turbo line kit? The mitsu can work with some mods but the braided kits are $110 and worth every penny, :thumb:

fastasleep
09-30-2007, 04:29 PM
Turbovanman,

I will buy the braided line kit tonight! I also think having a BOV will allow for longer turbo life, and it is cool to blow off in front of the Honduhs, too.
As far as keeping the Mitsu; I'd rather just fix the whole problem. I was thinking about having a look at it after the other one goes on to see if I can chuck it up and port the wastegate orifice. Dunno, but that will come after the van is running correctly.
What do you think of the Super 46 turbo? I am looking at a trade on some forged pistons (to build a stout short block from the 2.5 from my other van) and a Super 46 turbo (among other things).
Also, do you think the SRT4 intercooler will be sufficient to cool the boost needed for 250 fwhp?

-Les

turbovanmanČ
09-30-2007, 07:15 PM
46 is a good turbo but if possible, get the 50 trim. 46 limits the power unless your not going all out then its fine, :thumb:


The stock SRT puts down that kind of power with the stock IC so if you can mount it, use it. Its really tight up front in the vans, the SRT cooler might be too thick.

fastasleep
10-01-2007, 05:46 AM
I would just like to have a dependable, fun 250 fwhp out of the van; or just get close. A person would not believe how many supposedly "fast" street cars can't get into the 13's, but I bet with a diet and a good set-up that I could.
I leave for the Grassroots Motorsports $2007 Challenge on Wednesday, so it may be the next weekend before I can tear down the van.

-Les

turbovanmanČ
10-01-2007, 12:17 PM
I would just like to have a dependable, fun 250 fwhp out of the van; or just get close. A person would not believe how many supposedly "fast" street cars can't get into the 13's, but I bet with a diet and a good set-up that I could.
I leave for the Grassroots Motorsports $2007 Challenge on Wednesday, so it may be the next weekend before I can tear down the van.

-Les

I dynoed a few years ago at 236.5 hp using a TIII turbo on my van and ran a 14.1 on street tires, full weight, ;)

2.216VTurbo
10-01-2007, 06:18 PM
I would just like to have a dependable, fun 250 fwhp out of the van; or just get close. A person would not believe how many supposedly "fast" street cars can't get into the 13's, but I bet with a diet and a good set-up that I could.
I leave for the Grassroots Motorsports $2007 Challenge on Wednesday, so it may be the next weekend before I can tear down the van.

-Les


Uh, could you elaborate on the GRM challege a bit:thumb: ?? Are you entering a car or crewing or??

fastasleep
10-01-2007, 08:16 PM
The Grassroots Motorsports Challenge is an event put on by Grassroots Motorsports Magazine that allows competitors the chance to compete in a vehicle that has been bought and prepared for three events for $2007 (whatever the current year) or less. The three events are a concourse judging, an autocross and a drag race (1/4 mile). It is held in Gainesville, FL every year and it is a blast!
Yes, I am entering two vehicles. One is a 1990 Ford Ranger. 2.5 stroker (Wiseco forged pistons, H-beams, nodular crank, ported/shaved D-port, EFI/DIS, 150 shot), Spec clutch, 4.10 trak-lok, fully adjustable suspension (900 lbs.'ers up front, 750's in back, Carrera's and QA-1's, big sways front and rear), little bit of brake work, Hoosiers, blah, blah, blah. We weighed it before we started as a driver; it was 2806. We are hoping we are around the 2500 lbs. mark.
Second is a 1990 Mitsubishi Mirage GT, 4g63, 5-speed. New struts and brakes, custom clutch, small 16g running 25 psi boost, front-mount I/C, Gm 3" MAF and translator, 255 in-tank, 3" exhaust, 75 shot, blah, blah, blah. Car is around 2200 lbs.

I envite everyone to come out. I know you guys would probably know Cliff Sebring and Earle Henderson, being that they are turbo Dodge guys. They will be there.

-Les

turbovanmanČ
10-01-2007, 08:59 PM
I was wrong about the SRT IC, search "ohiorob" and his thread, SRT engine in a Minivan, just go to his personal info and surf thru his threads to find it. He has a pic of it installed. If you can't find it, I'll dig up the pics.

Aries_Turbo
10-01-2007, 10:45 PM
for the van, i suggest a set of +40's, 3-bar map and a socketed ecu and one of rob lloyd's scaled stock cals instead of just trying to up the fuel pressure.

most of what you have is stock minus the intercooler and the exhaust so you should be fine to run a stock scaled cal. I will even volunteer to mod the cal for you for safer high boost timing if you can find someone local to burn it to a chip.

you can get a socketed ecu for a reasonable price and chips are cheap. :)

Brian

2.216VTurbo
10-01-2007, 10:47 PM
Man Fasta, who the heck hastime to build 2 GRM cars??:thumb: Local guy ownes an old BMW 2002 with a Ford supercharger on it, built by 'Mongrel Motorsports' it's an ex GRM challenge car. Wish he would put a clutch in it so we could play with it...

BTW I didn't know they made the Mirage GT/turbo in 90, thought it was an 89 only car... Did they make a non turbo GT that you converted from the 1.3 to the 2.0l motor?

I live near Road Race Engineering, they never have any shortage of G463 project cars:)

fastasleep
10-02-2007, 05:22 AM
You are right about that, the GT (which came with the 4g61) was in '89. This was a 1.5 car, that we put a 4g63 in (hence the GT). Rolls out pretty well.

-Les

Vigo
10-02-2007, 12:48 PM
those are two impressive projects you got... you should start a thread somewhere else in the appropriate area and post pics and numbers/times etc. id love to see them.

fastasleep
10-02-2007, 03:52 PM
I will post them somewhere soon, but probably after the race. The truck is pretty wicked looking. The Mirage looks like my 4 year old painted it, but at least it is one color!

-Les

turbovanmanČ
10-02-2007, 04:46 PM
You are right about that, the GT (which came with the 4g61) was in '89. This was a 1.5 car, that we put a 4g63 in (hence the GT). Rolls out pretty well.

-Les

Thats a neat swap and damn near a drop in, :thumb:

fastasleep
10-03-2007, 06:40 AM
Yeah, just used the Hyundai Elantra mounts (well, two of them anyway). I also have a Cordia that I am working on. It's 100 lbs. lighter than the Mirage.

-Les