N02 users

[shadow88]

I'm leaning towards a small wet system for my shadow. Nothing over 75 shot. Probably more like 40-60 hp increase. After reading on Holley's site, they put a large emphasis on NOT running aftermarket electronics. I run a MP t2 smec when I'm racing.

So the question becomes, How do the nitrous users get around the increased ignition timing that aftermarket and 3 bar cal usually include?

I like to run fragile pistons, so this one is pretty important.

Thank you.

[Gaboon]

Jet it richer at first and work it down. I would also back the ignition timing down to about 10 deg to be safe and if you are running stock or hyperpethetic pistons, 14 lbs boost is the max you can safely run without cracking ring lands.

[shadow88]

14? Crap, why bother. I already run 20 psi boost pressure.

What size jets and fuel mods did you use? Stock computer?

[shadow88]

bump for more responces from no2 users

[BadAssPerformance]

Like Gaboon said, start richer (larger fuel jet or smaller nitrous jet) than the kit recomends

NOS recommends retarding a minimum from optimum 4° of timing per 100hp of the kit. So if you normally run 14° then on a 100 shot you run at most 10°.

Jet size? each manufactureris different, depends on who's stuff you use.

Highly recommended to run race gas, 100 octane minimum.

btw.. it is N2O :D

[shadow88]

btw.. it is N2O :D

No wonder I was getting so few responses :D !

I'm surprised so little timing should be pulled, I was expecting alot more. The plan is less than 75 shot, so 3 degrees less. I would assume ideal a/f ratio to be fatter than 12:1 when on the juice? I guess that will determine what boost can be run, or is there really a reason to be limited to 14 psi boost when running ,say,50-60 shot of spray?

The car already is capable of 12.3:1 at 20 psi at the track and I know more fuel pressure can be added.

[BadAssPerformance]

I would not run the juice any leaner than 12:1, I would say ideal is 11.5:1.

It will increase your boost, so a 75 shot will add 3-4 psi to whatever you run w/o the juice.

N2O is really cold. Think of it as the best intercooler money can buy.

Gaboon mentioned 14psi as a guideline for not cracking cast pistons... nitrous and boost combined is a delicate thing. More nitrous you want to run, start out with less boost.

More fuel pressure is not the best way to add more fuel. Especially with nitrous. If you need more fuel, add a larger fuel jet instead.

[zin]

I would not run the juice any leaner than 12:1, I would say ideal is 11.5:1.

It will increase your boost, so a 75 shot will add 3-4 psi to whatever you run w/o the juice.

N2O is really cold. Think of it as the best intercooler money can buy.

Gaboon mentioned 14psi as a guideline for not cracking cast pistons... nitrous and boost combined is a delicate thing. More nitrous you want to run, start out with less boost.

More fuel pressure is not the best way to add more fuel. Especially with nitrous. If you need more fuel, add a larger fuel jet instead.

This is some pretty good advice, don't go to an extreme with either the boost or the nitrous, that's how you'll get your best results. If you are pushing the compressor off the best part of the map, you can lower the boost to bring it back and add the nitrous to more than compensate for the lower boost.

As for timing, the advice I've seen here has been pretty accurate, as has the method of reducing it, just turn the dist. If you run an after market ignition you could add a retard module to electronically reduce the timing and have your cake and eat it too! Not that many have this as an option.

Don't worry about adding fuel to the stock tune-up on an NOS tune-up, they already have 15% more fuel than needed, plus they are tuned to be safe @ 40 (or less) PSI, the biggest complaint we used to get was that they ran really rich, so start with a stock tune-up and get a few smaller fuel jets for tuning. The figure of 10.5-11: 1 A/F is a good starting point, though I have run some as lean as 12:1, but that was on a dyno, and we crept up on it, reading spark plugs as our final word on what we did.

If you've never had nitrous or ridden in a car with it, you are in for a treat! The kind that gives you that stupid grin you can't wipe off your face!

[BadAssPerformance]

Although I have never done crack... I think that nitrous on a car is like crack would be... once you try it, you just want more! :D

[contraption22]

I'm still wondering about the possibility of a small dry shot out of the hole to help spool up the turbo. Maybe run a couple lbs of extra base fuel pressure and a .025-030 nitrous jet just to get her spooling and have it shut off at 15psi.

[BadAssPerformance]

Why not just run a small wet shot? You got an auto, just spray it all the way. :thumb:

[contraption22]

I'm kind of afraid of fuel dropping out of suspension with my big plenum intake.

[zin]

I'm kind of afraid of fuel dropping out of suspension with my big plenum intake.

It's amazing what you can get away with if the shot is small enough. I can't tell you how many times I've told folks that their engine should be dead!

That being said, you can't rely on being lucky. So, if by dry you mean no fuel added, I don't recommend it, too easy to run it lean. Even just a short time running lean is kinda like lighting a fuse to a pile of TNT, if you don't snuff it out right away (shut it down) you're in for a "big bang". However, if by dry you mean adding nitrous alone into the intake, and adding fuel via the injection, then that would be fine, and is in fact the preferred method, when it's practical. The most common way of doing this is to send an artificial "boost" signal to the FPR, while the nitrous is on, thus adding the needed fuel while the nitrous is engaged. We don't normally do this on Turbo applications as you never know how much "extra" fuel pressure the customer will have, so its safer to just have them go with a wet system. But since you only plan to use it to spool, this method is wide open to you. FYI, these are the "dry" systems used on the 5.0 Mustangs, etc. If you go to Holley's website and look at the instructions for kit 05115nos, you'll see just what I'm talking about. The only addition you'd need is a boost cut-off switch to shut it down once you start making boost. Now that I've finished chapters 1-5, I'll give you all a break! :)

Mike

[85glht]

O.K. I'm chiming in. I got my kit from NOS. As bolted in from the factory is was rich so don't worry about being lean. The part number for this kit, from Jegs, is
741-05208, it is for the Eclipse 2.0 turbo.
I backed up the timing to 10* initial. I run it from first gear to the end of the quarter mile. It is activated by a throttle switch (WOT only). The biggest no-no is activating it too early (ie.. too low of an rpm) This causes bad things like KA-BOOM in the intake track.

Having Nitrous is like crack.............. I'm hooked and I don't want to go to re-hab.:D

[BadAssPerformance]

I'm kind of afraid of fuel dropping out of suspension with my big plenum intake.

Ever watch a street race and the mustang in the left lane that "doesn't have a nitrous kit" and "wont pop the hood or hatch" keeps popping each gear?

The trick is to let out of the button a split second before lifting throttle so that gas doesn't have a chance to fall out of the suspended flow :thumb:

[Gaboon]

The reason for the stock pistons cracking isn't usually because of detonation or pre ignition, it's from excess cylinder pressure over what the stock or hyperpethetic pistons can take.
This is why "safe" is 14 lbs boost. Sure you can run higher 18...19..But for how long and how many times. I've done it but it wasn't a big thing for me to change a piston here and there during the season.

Now 20 lbs without NOS will not make the hp that 14 lbs with a 60 shot will. You want a real kick in the pants, just try it and get back to me.....

NOS brand jetting is this. 50 hp=37 N2O / 20 fuel
60 hp= 39 N2O / 22 fuel
75 hp= 42 N2O /24 or 25 fuel

These set ups are at 52 lbs fuel pressure at idle vacume off. Adjust accordingly for fuel pressure.

[Gaboon]

[QUOTE=BadAssPerformance;207133]I would not run the juice any leaner than 12:1, I would say ideal is 11.5:1.

It will increase your boost, so a 75 shot will add 3-4 psi to whatever you run w/o the juice.

N2O is really cold. Think of it as the best intercooler money can buy.
QUOTE]

Actually in my case boost would normally remain constant. I know some DSM's would have boost creap mainly because they're wastgates wouldn't flow enough.
Our's are pretty good in this case.

And you are right, it is the best IC out there.

[contraption22]

I would think a small 02 housing would limit boost if anything, being it is a restriction after the turbine, so backpressure there would slow down the turbine.

If anything, it would be a small wastegate that would cause the creep you speak of. All of extra exhaust volume created by the N20 and fuel would not be able to escape thru the wastegate, therefore the turbo would continue to accelerate.

[Gaboon]

I would think a small 02 housing would limit boost if anything, being it is a restriction after the turbine, so backpressure there would slow down the turbine.

If anything, it would be a small wastegate that would cause the creep you speak of. All of extra exhaust volume created by the N20 and fuel would not be able to escape thru the wastegate, therefore the turbo would continue to accelerate.

Sorry, you are correct. It is the small wastgate that causes the boost creep.


Now to edit my post....

[BadAssPerformance]

I would think a small 02 housing would limit boost if anything, being it is a restriction after the turbine, so backpressure there would slow down the turbine.

If anything, it would be a small wastegate that would cause the creep you speak of. All of extra exhaust volume created by the N20 and fuel would not be able to escape thru the wastegate, therefore the turbo would continue to accelerate.

With the juice there is so much more mass flowing thru the motor with so much pressure/energy that it cannot all escape out the SV hole and ends up going thru the turbine. Maybe with an external wastegate in the manifold instead of the turbine housing it wouldn't have this boost increase?

[Gaboon]

With the juice there is so much more mass flowing thru the motor with so much pressure/energy that it cannot all escape out the SV hole and ends up going thru the turbine. Maybe with an external wastegate in the manifold instead of the turbine housing it wouldn't have this boost increase?

You shouldn't get boost creep. I never did.

[contraption22]

It's amazing what you can get away with if the shot is small enough. I can't tell you how many times I've told folks that their engine should be dead!

That being said, you can't rely on being lucky. So, if by dry you mean no fuel added, I don't recommend it, too easy to run it lean. Even just a short time running lean is kinda like lighting a fuse to a pile of TNT, if you don't snuff it out right away (shut it down) you're in for a "big bang". However, if by dry you mean adding nitrous alone into the intake, and adding fuel via the injection, then that would be fine, and is in fact the preferred method, when it's practical. The most common way of doing this is to send an artificial "boost" signal to the FPR, while the nitrous is on, thus adding the needed fuel while the nitrous is engaged. We don't normally do this on Turbo applications as you never know how much "extra" fuel pressure the customer will have, so its safer to just have them go with a wet system. But since you only plan to use it to spool, this method is wide open to you. FYI, these are the "dry" systems used on the 5.0 Mustangs, etc. If you go to Holley's website and look at the instructions for kit 05115nos, you'll see just what I'm talking about. The only addition you'd need is a boost cut-off switch to shut it down once you start making boost. Now that I've finished chapters 1-5, I'll give you all a break! :)

Mike

Thanks Mike. Actually the situation I am in is that I have extra fuel that I don't know what to do with, so I'm looking for ways to use that fuel instead of just running overly rich.

[BadAssPerformance]

You shouldn't get boost creep. I never did.

It was never boost creep (cuz it does not creep up it just stops at a higher level) but I always get more boost on the button. With a mitsu, S60 garret, even a hybrid.

[contraption22]

It was never boost creep (cuz it does not creep up it just stops at a higher level) but I always get more boost on the button. With a mitsu, S60 garret, even a hybrid.

Thats consistent with what Cliff Sebring told me years ago when he was running N20 on his Silver Bulllit.

[zin]

Thanks Mike. Actually the situation I am in is that I have extra fuel that I don't know what to do with, so I'm looking for ways to use that fuel instead of just running overly rich.

Well, then, I guess you could do it, but I'd only try it if I had a wide-band to ensure that the thing didn't go too lean. That and a boost cut-off switch set to about 1/2 (or less) of max boost pressure, just so you don't have the turbo and nitrous fighting for the same fuel. Do that and it should be just fine.

Mike

[Gaboon]

It was never boost creep (cuz it does not creep up it just stops at a higher level) but I always get more boost on the button. With a mitsu, S60 garret, even a hybrid.




Thats consistent with what Cliff Sebring told me years ago when he was running N20 on his Silver Bulllit.


My car must be an odd ball. Stock garret, Enforcer and Hybrid, I never had my boost go more than 1 lb over what it was set at without the juice.
I've been running it over 16 years and still do.:thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

What is your nitrous setup like? where is the nozzle? how big of a hit?

[Gaboon]

What is your nitrous setup like? where is the nozzle? how big of a hit?

Single nozzle, wet system, jetted 80 hp right now.

Nozzle is just after the TB in the intake inlet.

You can see it in the attachment.

[OnLooker]

I have it on my wagon (TI log) with a 40hp shot boost would go up 2 psi. I have it set for 14 psi the with the juice it would hit 16.

[BadAssPerformance]

Single nozzle, wet system, jetted 80 hp right now.

Nozzle is just after the TB in the intake inlet.

You can see it in the attachment.

similar setup how mine used to be...

[contraption22]

Well, then, I guess you could do it, but I'd only try it if I had a wide-band to ensure that the thing didn't go too lean. That and a boost cut-off switch set to about 1/2 (or less) of max boost pressure, just so you don't have the turbo and nitrous fighting for the same fuel. Do that and it should be just fine.

Mike

Thats the plan. I do have a wideband already. Thats how I know im so rich. I'm planning to shut off at about 10psi. Once she reaches there, boost skyrockets, so I would not be needing the n20 anymore.

[BadAssPerformance]

You may not need it, but you will still want it :D

[zin]

Thats the plan. I do have a wideband already. Thats how I know I'm so rich. I'm planning to shut off at about 10psi. Once she reaches there, boost skyrockets, so I would not be needing the n20 anymore.

Sounds good, the really neat thing is you'll find you won't have boost lag and the system won't be on for more than about a second, the boost will come up that fast! The only other thing you'll be wondering is, now what do I have to do to have the nitrous on all the time! :eyebrows:

[Gaboon]

Thats the plan. I do have a wideband already. Thats how I know im so rich. I'm planning to shut off at about 10psi. Once she reaches there, boost skyrockets, so I would not be needing the n20 anymore.




Heh heh....

What's this shutting off thing you speak of???:confused:


Go big or go home!!!!:thumb:

[puppet]

Install the RED override button :P

... and Mike was just kidding. He doesn't want a dry system on a turbo engine.

[BadAssPerformance]

Heh heh....

What's this shutting off thing you speak of???:confused:

Go big or go home!!!!:thumb:

Hell yeah! :thumb:

[contraption22]

... and Mike was just kidding. He doesn't want a dry system on a turbo engine.

Sure do!

[gasketmaster]

Go big or go home!!!!:thumb:

After reading all of these posts you guys have me convinced :D

The fogger tip is going in tonight :nx:

[shadow88]

After reading all of these posts you guys have me convinced :D

The fogger tip is going in tonight :nx:


11's and/or bust?

[gasketmaster]

11's and/or bust?

The whole engine is just floor sweepings........so why not :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

After reading all of these posts you guys have me convinced :D

The fogger tip is going in tonight :nx:

How big a hit?

[gasketmaster]

How big a hit?

I'm thinking a 35-50 shot :D

[BadAssPerformance]

Just a little, eh? how much boost have you been running?

[shadow88]

I had to bring this back to life because I'll be actually placing my order within the next week or so. So I still have a couple of questions that I would like some help with.

On post 14, there was a part number supplied from JEGS website.741-05208 mentions jetting from 75-125 hp. I think that's too much for me at this point. In the listing for 741-05208, it mentions yet another kit with lower jets from 40-60 hp under pn 741-05122, but in the application sections, it specifies non-turbo. So I'm kinda stumped as to why that is.

When I just search for nitrous kits for my application, through holley's website, i come up with product # 05208NOS. And the link which clearly has the wrong picture- http://www.holley.com/05208NOS.asp It's also listed from 40-60hp increase. Will anybody else mind sharing what package they purchased and include product numbers please? Thanks in advance.

[zin]

I had to bring this back to life because I'll be actually placing my order within the next week or so. So I still have a couple of questions that I would like some help with.

On post 14, there was a part number supplied from JEGS website.741-05208 mentions jetting from 75-125 hp. I think that's too much for me at this point. In the listing for 741-05208, it mentions yet another kit with lower jets from 40-60 hp under pn 741-05122, but in the application sections, it specifies non-turbo. So I'm kinda stumped as to why that is.

When I just search for nitrous kits for my application, through holley's website, i come up with product # 05208NOS. And the link which clearly has the wrong picture- http://www.holley.com/05208NOS.asp It's also listed from 40-60hp increase. Will anybody else mind sharing what package they purchased and include product numbers please? Thanks in advance.

I'll let the cat out of the bag a little here. There are a large number of part numbers that are in fact the same kit. The different numbers were used as a marketing tool. Everyone wants a kit made for their car, even if the same exact kit (and jetting) would be the same, so for the more popular cars, kit numbers were made up, but behind the scenes they are made up of the same sub-components. For example, the 05208nos and 05348nos among others are the same, save for the part number on the outside of the box.

Now, as for the HP, these kits will come with 50HP and higher, but all you have to do is call us at Nitrous Supply and we can get you the smaller jetting you want, the limitation on going smaller is the fuel jet, at 50 PSI, it's hard to hold back the fuel! BTW, there are a couple of kits that are cheaper and still include the needed parts, our 08002 for example. Hope I don't sound too much like a commercial here.

Mike

[shadow88]

I was about to send you a PM, but I thought if you were the same Mike as mentioned at the top of the webpage, maybe more people will be contacting you for their nitrous needs.

I just wanted to start at low nitrous levels because I'm a nitrous newbie and I don't want to mess up on such a grand scale. I run fuel pressures of 44-46 psi becasue I run +40's and 2 cold starts.

The 08002 package looks just fine as long as it comes with good instructions. I will be calling you within a couple weeks (after holidays) and look foreward to doing business.

[zin]

I was about to send you a PM, but I thought if you were the same Mike as mentioned at the top of the web page, maybe more people will be contacting you for their nitrous needs.

I just wanted to start at low nitrous levels because I'm a nitrous newbie and I don't want to mess up on such a grand scale. I run fuel pressures of 44-46 psi because I run +40's and 2 cold starts.

The 08002 package looks just fine as long as it comes with good instructions. I will be calling you within a couple weeks (after holidays) and look forward to doing business.

That sounds great! Feel free to call us/me anytime.

Mike