My new set-up times

[Reaper1]

OK, JUST got back from the track. It was VERY hot and muggy today...I'd say when I made my 1st pass it was still probably in the mid 90's and when I made my last pass in the mid 80's.

Car set-up is as follows:
-engine: stock, has crank scraper
-turbo: stock, using G-valve boost controller set for 20#'s
-intake: stock, drop-in K&N, FMIC w/DSM BOV
-exhaust: 2.25" SV, 3" mandrel exhaust with Dynomax cat and Borla XR1 muffler
-computer: FWD S5
-fuel: 225 pump, +40 injectors, AFPR(using 5/16" return) set at 40#'s base, Devil's Own progressive methanol kit using 3gph nozzle(comes on at 10#'s...full at 18#s
-ignition: NGK BPR6ES set at .027", Rich's MSD wire kit w/brass cap/rotor, stock coil, timing at 12*(could go higher)
-suspension: Eibachs(cut for a little less than 1.5" drop), Konis, rear shock tower bar, PB solid bobble strut, alignment is -.8* camber +.125" total toe out in front and -.5* 0" toe out in rear, more to come later
-brakes: 1989/90 Shelby 11", Porterfeild R4S pads, braided stainless lines, Valvoline DOT4 synthetic fluid
-transmission: stock A555 running Red Line MTL
-clutch: stock everything...new clutch disc though
-wheels: stock 6.5" crabs
-tires: Kumho 711 225/50/15 (22#'s for drag seems to work well)
-cooling: stock TII rad w/ modified V6 fan & block-off for stock IC location, 180* t-stat
-interior: stock & complete w/spare tire, 30/30 AutoMeter boost gage in stock location, Dawes Device A/F hidden in tach, Devil's Own controller on lower dash
-stereo: yes I have one...yes it's loud...nope, I'm not saying what it is for various reasons
-notes: car has working A/C, has PW, PL, PM, power enthusiast driver's seat

Estimated race weight w/driver: 3100#'s..had full tank of fuel
completley stock the car did 15.7@88mph with similar weight

My best run of tonight yeilded me a 14.515@99.91mph
60' was a 2.342
1/8: 9.432@77.5

The car DID break 100mph!! CRAP run though...15.001@100.69! I bogged the launch BAD(2.589 60'). I was running that WRX down!! LOL(he ran 14.567@92.56)

It ran 2 99mph runs and 1 98mph run all in the 14.7-14.5 range....60' are KILLING me! I'm still trying to get used to how to launch a 5-speed car propperly at the track! I'm getting better at the tree with it though...cut a .059 light(I think against a newer Mustang...and beat him!).

All in all I gained 12mph, and just over a second in the 1/4 over stock...I don't think it's TOO bad. I think the car has more in it for sure, but it's all in the launch. The first part of the track seems kinda sluggish to me, but after the 1/8 the car REALLY picks up!

LMK what you guys think...I'm fairly happy with it! I kinda wished I'd gotten a little better ET, but I did get my mph here I wanted it....*shrugs*

[turbovanman²]

Thats pretty good for basically a stock engine, running 20 lbs of boost, :thumb:

[Reaper1]

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback! :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

my 87 ShelbyZ ran 14.4@99 with 15psi on it's stock 2.2 T2 setup with just a 2.5" straight pipe side exhaust. 3120lbs cutting a 2.2 60ft.

[Reaper1]

I don't want to sound too full of myself, but I think you forgot a few mods there...there is NO WAY that happened without the car being a ringer. The cars stock pulled mid 15's(as I already proved....and that's what the magazines got too). You're telling me that adding MAYBE 30chp yeilded close to the same results I just got....I don't think so(plus the fact you're claiming 15psi...stock computer won't let that happen as we all know...so right there there HAS to be something bogus).

It took Gary D. 18psi, more fuel, bigger exhaust, and slicks to do 13's and 100mph on his old Daytona. I've matched his mph...I just can't get off the line. Yes, I have more mods and am running slightly more boost, but I'm also running street tires and am giving up a little midrange power with the small SV. My car also might be heavier than what I think, but I've got a hard time beleiving that because it's a hardtop car.

Either there's a typo here, the car made WAY more power than any other stock TD, or there was more mods that aren't being listed.....

[GLHNSLHT2]

Easy enough to get around the cutout with a grainger valve on the map line. I put a 2.5 shortblock under the head later and ran 14.1's at 13psi, then added an 89 factory shortthrow shifter and went 13.9x. It's record with the 2.5 setup is 13.882@101.8 with 13.5psi of boost.

My 87 New yorker runs 14.3@98 with 14.5psi. It's stock except a T2 conversion and a cat delete. But it's just under 100lbs lighter than my ShelbyZ and has a automatic with the low stall converter.

[GLHSKEN]

Nice runs reaper. Reeves used to run 13.5's at 101+ on 20 psi with a stockish set-up (slicks). Simply fuel boost and exhaust. Never did get the car in the 13's without slicks. 5 Sp's like to light the tires from a roll.

[8valves]

Nice runs reaper. Reeves used to run 13.5's at 101+ on 20 psi with a stockish set-up (slicks). Simply fuel boost and exhaust. Never did get the car in the 13's without slicks. 5 Sp's like to light the tires from a roll.

I think that was before I was born! :eek:

[GLHSKEN]

LOL smart A$$ 2000.... He had switched to the Omni before you met him.

[Reaper1]

I'm sorry...I just don't buy the claims you're making GLHNSLHT2. I've seen so many others do similar times and mph as me with similar mods(give or take small ones here and there)...and you've got them ALL beat by at LEAST 4psi and LESS mods via your claims. It just doesn't add up without there being some other variable there. I'm waving a big red flag on this....

I suppose that if you did it, good for you, but I've personally NEVER heard of somebody pulling those times without other mods done to the car, or it being lightened...a LOT!

[Reaper1]

Thanks for the compliment Ken and 8VALVES...:thumb:

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'm sorry...I just don't buy the claims you're making GLHNSLHT2. I've seen so many others do similar times and mph as me with similar mods(give or take small ones here and there)...and you've got them ALL beat by at LEAST 4psi and LESS mods via your claims. It just doesn't add up without there being some other variable there. I'm waving a big red flag on this....

I suppose that if you did it, good for you, but I've personally NEVER heard of somebody pulling those times without other mods done to the car, or it being lightened...a LOT!

It's ok, I've got timeslips and video and plenty of witnesses that have seen it. Comes from good car prep at the track and not to sound full of myself but good driving as well.

[slowbrokedodge]

GLHNSLHT2 Im with reaper1, your trying to tell all of us that your daytona with very minor mods! is running as fast as most SRT-4's at the track, I know most of you are going to say that srt-4's can run into the 13's stock, but that is rare most stock ones are in the mid 14's, and with what I have seen with these cars I have a hard time swalling your #'s.

[GLHNSLHT2]

an 03' (the 215hp one) here with 500 miles on it cracked off a 13.9@100something back in 03 here. We have 2 SRT's with the big spearco i/c, one with 3" exhaust, and the other has a stage 1 ECU. They both have slicks and run 12.7@100-111.

I've been tuning the ECU to run 20psi on my current setup, which is, The 2.5 with a stock head, stock 2 piece intake, ported exhaust manny, S60 turbo, cummins i/c, 3" air intake (is that a mod?), 3" exhaust. I'm hoping for low 13's on streets and 12's on slicks.

[The Pope]

GLHNSLHT2 Im with reaper1, your trying to tell all of us that your daytona with very minor mods! is running as fast as most SRT-4's at the track, I know most of you are going to say that srt-4's can run into the 13's stock, but that is rare most stock ones are in the mid 14's, and with what I have seen with these cars I have a hard time swalling your #'s.

poor driving and tuning is why most people think SRT 4s runs 14s. There are a few exceptions where people can't get any boost. My brothers cars has finally started to dip off. But stock they start at 15 and run down to 11-12 and run 13s real easy driving right. With a clown driving in a car that they made slower than stock there are TONS of slow SRT 4s out there.

As far as GLHNSLH goes, I have copys of the vids he speaks of, we were all out racing those days. And like most people his 3 bar cal was a turd when he first put it in. IT bottomed the scale at 9 AF and didn't smoke on the wide band. Sure 20 PSI felt OK but not that great and the car went slower, he went back into the 14s. Now the AF is right and the timing needs to come down a bit after 19 PSI to keep from pulling timing.

Lets see a show of hands how many morons out there are running mods and/or 3 bar maps and NO WIDEBAND? Max power is 13 and best power / safe is 12, GLHNSLH is running 12.3 under boost now and it is a night and day change.

Clays SRT 4 runs 12.71 @111 on drag radials, stage 1, cold air intake and the big IC. No other power mods and he makes over 270 WHP with a 13.1 AF and no detonation. But if your Daytona runs 14s at 20 PSI you can't drive or your car is messed up. Judging by the MPH you need to stop wasting breath on here and money on mods and buy a wideband.

[Aries_Turbo]

ive watched Gary run 13s on 13psi with slicks at SDAC 13 in his daytona. he had a dual core and a 3" exhaust and the few exhaust side mods listed on his site. grainger screwup only gave him 13psi.

ive run 13.9 on 13-14psi on slicks in the kcar. bigger cooler, .63ar, and 3" exhaust are the only performance mods at that time. all else was stock stuff.

with 17-18psi i ran 13.7 at 103mph on street tires with the same setup. car is pretty light though. same kumho 711's as you. 2.1 60ft.

the FWD S5 is prolly a little rich. see if someone has a wideband that you can stuff up the tailpipe (with the adapter of course and no cat) and see what the fuel mix is.

Brian

[Speedeuphoria]

that and learn how to launch better. I think its slow for the mods, prob pegging a wb rich

[TurboBuggy]

I'm sorry...I just don't buy the claims you're making GLHNSLHT2. I've seen so many others do similar times and mph as me with similar mods(give or take small ones here and there)...and you've got them ALL beat by at LEAST 4psi and LESS mods via your claims. It just doesn't add up without there being some other variable there. I'm waving a big red flag on this....

I suppose that if you did it, good for you, but I've personally NEVER heard of somebody pulling those times without other mods done to the car, or it being lightened...a LOT!

I ran 14.7 on 15psi boost with my stock CSX-T, only thing I did was add a 3-bar map sensor, side exit exhaust, and tune it. This was with ---- tires(also two different size tires) and a really jacked up front end alignment so yes I could see him running a 14.4 on 15psi.

I bet your running too rich with your S5 computer, see if you can get your hands on a wideband

[slowbrokedodge]

Like I said many of you would argue about srt-4's but the fact is if you do your research in the magizines, they were around 14.0 to 14.40's at 98-100mph, and like mustang guys most srt-4 guys will tell you there car is stock when they arnt.

[Directconnection]

You left out turbo, intercooler and what car is this?

With the S5 cal, you absolutely do not need alcohol injection at 18psi or even 22 for that matter on 93 octane. My friend ran the S5 cal on pump gas at 23psi boost without any issues. Not sure how far it would go on pump gas, though.

[1991SpiritES]

I know my SRT-4 with just exhust ran 14.6@96. With the cold air intake and Stage 2 without the toys, my best run was 14.3 @102. I have to agree about most SRT-4 guys are like Mustang guys every thing is alway stock.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Like I said many of you would argue about srt-4's but the fact is if you do your research in the magizines, they were around 14.0 to 14.40's at 98-100mph, and like mustang guys most srt-4 guys will tell you there car is stock when they arnt.

Uh the one I saw run 13.9 had 500 or so miles on it and it was June of O3. There wasn't really any performance parts for it yet. I also looked the car over very well and it was bone stock. The magazines all cranked out 13's with it and the 04's were quicker. If you can't get into the 13's with a car that weighs 2800lbs and has 215-230hp you're doing something wrong.

As for the 2 that run 12's here I know the cars well and the owners. Minimal mods and slicks is all it takes.

[Reaper1]

I didn't leave out turbo...I said it's stock. This means it is the stock Garrett T3 with 2.25" SV that came on the car.

The car is a 1988 Shelby Z hardtop. Car comes in at about 3100#'s with me(175) and a full tank. I leave my stereo and my spare in the car.

Intercooler is a e-bay delux thing that I bought off of a friend that never installed it. There are several people running this same company's products(CX Racing I beleive) with good success. Pressure drop is .5psi @15#'s of boost across the core. It's not a large IC, but it is certainly better than the stock one.

The car *may* be rich, but I'd rather it be rich than broke. I've got the fuel pressure(as stated before) turned down to 40# static. This did yeild a better seat-of-the-pants feel to the car and stopped it from rich popping at the top of 3rd and 4th. The Dawes flickers between blue and green set like this, which to me is fine. It did NOT yeild a huge increase at far as mph on the track though...so either it is still WAY too rich(I don't beleive that), or the set-up is close.

Would I like a WBO2? HELL YEAH!!! Would I suggest it to others and do I think it's a good idea? Yup. Am I tuning completely blind? NO! I am tuning SAFE! Am I a quote: "moron"? No(thank you very much). The fact that I don't know where the AF is exactly means that I HAVE to play it safe, like hundreds before me that have paved the roads for us all.

As for not needing alcohol injection...you can say and believe what you want, but it DOES make a difference. I can make a full pass, get out and put my hand fully on the intake and it is COLD to the touch on a 90* day. This ONE thing would be enough, but the fact that it also adds a bit of octane to the mixture and the injected mix also acts as a knock supressant gives me every reason in the world to run it! Can the calibration be used without it? Undoubtedly. However, I like that safety net so that in case I just so happen to get a bad batch of fuel, or my boost does all of a sudden go through the roof, I have that extra little bit to save my engine. I'm not going to tune the thing to an inch of its life. It's not safe, nor is it smart for a DD. It's taken me a while to learn that fact, but I find it's a lot nicer to have a car that is reliable and quick, than a car that I might have to have towed home and dump unneeded amounts of money and time in to due to one stupid mistake.

I know this person "says" that and this and the other about how they tuned the car and it did such and such. Great, good for them. The stock turbo does nothing but push hot air after 20psi for the most part. It cuts down on the turbo's life. It makes tuning more difficult due to the instability of the charge air temperature and density. If you want to run more than 20#'s on a stock turbo, have fun! Not me. I see no point. This is why I would like to eventually upgrade the turbo, so I can not have to push it so hard to make my power...and have room to spare.

I know my launches suck. The car is capable of MUCH better 60' times in its current form. How much better? I don't know, but if I could bust off a low 2.2 I'd be happy. Our tracks on test-n-tune nights aren't usually prepped very well, so a low 2.2 in a FWD car on street tires is doing pretty darn good. From what I can tell by my timeslips and the way the car reacts, that little bit of improvement in the 60' could possibly yeild me another .2-.4 seconds and another 1mph at the end of the track. This puts me within sneezing of 13's, which seems right to me. As for my driving down the rest of the track...I think it's pretty darn good! Seeing as my shifts are less than a foot apart(VERY little time not applying power), and I'm consistant, I don't see an issue here. I was able to run the car in it's stock form within .001 seconds 15 minutes apart on the opposite lane having to double clutch to get 3rd not to grind....so that's not being able to drive? OK, sure Mario. The only thing that I don't do, and REFUSE to do is power shift(not letting off the gas during the shift). This is VERY hard on parts and I'm just not going to do it. So to say I can't drive...I'd LOVE to know how I *should* be doing it!? PLEASE....let's hear from the "expert" now.......As for my launching...I'm LEARNING!! I've ALWAYS driven an auto car. I'm just now getting to the point where I'm feeling comfortable launching a manual car and getting a good grip on what balance I need between clutch release, throttle apply, launch rpm, and when/where to make the first shift. Each time I do it I learn something else and get better at it. I've lowered my 60's from 2.6 to 2.3 in 2 track outings! I'd say that's a marked improvement!

As for car prep? PLEASE enlighten me!! I'd sure like to know what kind of top secret, super intergalactic fairy dust I need to go buy to make my car go impossible times for its set-up! I run my car as close to street trim as possible. I take nothing out of the car(stereo and all). The only thing I change is tire pressure and suspension settings if need be. Everything that can be checked or would make a significant difference in the way the car runs was gone through on the car before it was run. Fluids were checked, clamps tightened, ect. ect.

As for the claimed times of ANY car that I've seen in from the Washington area in recent years(not just TD's...imports guys seem to be the same way), they ALL seem to be a bit faster than the rest of the country. Either you guys have MUCH better air, a MUCH better track, a downhill track, or one HELL of a tailwind. The 2003 SRT was ADVERTISED at 215...it produced more power with good fuel. 215 was on bad fuel, that's part of the reason for the rating change in '04. I've heard of a few SRT's running 13's in "stock" trim also. Possible? Sure, but each one is VERY different. The ones that we've seen around here usually are mid-low 14's and around 96-99mph on street tires. Now, put slicks on it....13's!

I'll keep plugging away at the car. More tuning I know is needed, but for now the car is quick enough and is safe. I'll keep working on my launch, so hopefully the next time I go to the track I can pull a better ET.

I beat a 2001 Mustang Cobra the other night with the car(my GF was with me...the Cobra also had his GF with him). Mods for him were unknown, but as typical he had exhaust and some aftermarket wheels with a slew of gages. I'm happy with that outcome...

[Directconnection]

As for the claimed times of ANY car that I've seen in from the Washington area in recent years(not just TD's...imports guys seem to be the same way), they ALL seem to be a bit faster than the rest of the country. Either you guys have MUCH better air, a MUCH better track, a downhill track, or one HELL of a tailwind.

:lol:

[GLHNSLHT2]

The track is fine, My G'friends Jeep Liberty runs the same time as the magazine's say it should. I did eek out 2 tenths quicker and a MPH higher with it by shallow staging it. That is fun to play with shallow and deep staging with the big tires on it. Although no one else liked it as it put about ten 12 second or quicker drag cars and a 10 second bike on the trailer bracket racing it :) Came home with a nice trophy hehe.

[Aries_Turbo]

dont worry reaper, im sure that no one is putting down your efforts, we are just saying that it is possible to eek a better time out of the car with practice and tuning. :) if you are satisfied, thats plenty. :)

Brian

[Reaper1]

Thanks Brian. Yeah, I know the car has more in it. I don't doubt that one bit. And for the first time at the track with that set-up(and only second time with that car), and only just starting to tune it in, I thought it did well! I did feel a bit "attacked" so to speak, though. Not specifically by you, just by some of the one-upmanship.

[Directconnection]

dont worry reaper, im sure that no one is putting down your efforts, we are just saying that it is possible to eek a better time out of the car with practice and tuning. :) if you are satisfied, thats plenty. :)

Brian


Yeah, that's what most of us were saying except for a select few.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah I posted those times only cause some said they were impossible yet ive seen them with my own eyes and ran a few good low boost times myself with very few mods. now in the case of my kcar and garys daytona, they were both custom cals. I did the tuning on mine with a wideband and you can be pretty sure that gary was pushing up to the edge with his stuff. i was still running one of his cals when i ran both those times I listed. that cal was quite aggressive in the timing arena.

my higher boost time was to say that its possible to get the car in the 13s with street tires... in fact the same tire that you are using. that was to be an encouragement. :) i wasnt even gonna run my car at all that day (even though I always take a tech card as its the same to run or watch at my track just in case ;)) and that day i said "what the heck", ill take a pass or two. i launched pretty soft though and we have good track prep.

Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

oh BTW, that downpipe you sent me a long time ago worked perfectly for my V6 k car. a belated thanks lol

Brian

[8valves]

and run 13s real easy driving right.

...Max power is 13 and best power / safe is 12...

...270 WHP with a 13.1 AF and no detonation...

A) If it were so easy, everyone would have a stock 13 second SRT4, but they don't. Easy is bottom 14's, talented is top 13's.

B) I disagree entirely for a boosted application about 13:1... either your crazy, or you guys need to re-cal your wideband, buy a new sensor, get a different wideband, something!

C) To add to B, let him lay some real power down and the car will destroy itself at a constant 13:1 AFR on 93 octane with no drugs of any sort.

[TurboJerry]

I've seen many melted parts at 13:1 A/F ratio on high boost forced induction gasoline engines. Advancing the timing will kill it fast also.......

[Aries_Turbo]

sheesh, i didnt even notice that post or i would have corrected it earlier. thanks for catching that aaron/jerry.

Brian

[GLHNSLHT2]

The 13.1 a/f for the SRT's was on the dyno. For me that's a little on the scary side. But they seem to be doing well with it as the cars are now 3 years old and are still going. 1 is street raced quite a bit down in Vegas and the other does AutoX all the time up here.

I run 12.3 a/f. Tune out any detonation within the spark curves of the ECU on my 2.5. I've just been turning the boost up the last couple weeks. Got a nice good tune up to 19psi with no detonation. I have a little bit at 20 that I'm tuning out now that I've got all the hoses from popping off. I'm going to keep turning up the boost as far as I can. I've been running 12-15psi for years now trying to get chips made from different vendors that have come and gone. Thank God for Dcal and the flashable smec I can now do all the tuning myself. I'm also thanful that I don't have to deal with the horror stories about how a cal that was bought was way way rich or way way lean or had too much spark and nuked the motor. If I blow up my motor it's my own fault. But I crank the boost slowly and run it that way for a couple days to make sure I'm not getting detonation in a certain circumstance.

[TurboJerry]

It's one of those deals.......

[Tony Lane]

Jesus Reaper, chill out man. You almost sound disappointed by your times. No reason to doubt GLHSNLHT2.

Anyway, congrats on your times. I hope to have my '88 Shelby Z hardtop running mid 14's. Maybe I'll follow your set up...seems good.

FWIW, my T2 Omni, stock internals, head, and a525 ran a 14.7x on 14 psi, stock exhaust, and street tires...yeah, it's lighter than a Tona by a lot, but, it sure as hell went faster than I thought. That's why I don't doubt 13's at 13 psi on a well tuned car.

[contraption22]

A) If it were so easy, everyone would have a stock 13 second SRT4, but they don't. Easy is bottom 14's, talented is top 13's.

B) I disagree entirely for a boosted application about 13:1... either your crazy, or you guys need to re-cal your wideband, buy a new sensor, get a different wideband, something!

C) To add to B, let him lay some real power down and the car will destroy itself at a constant 13:1 AFR on 93 octane with no drugs of any sort.

I've seen many melted parts at 13:1 A/F ratio on high boost forced induction gasoline engines. Advancing the timing will kill it fast also.......


Guys guys guys. Don't waste too much time reading into the Pope's posts. If you take his posts, mix it with a little hay and water, and spread it over your tomato plants, you will have the tastiest, juiciest crop this side of Jersey.

[Directconnection]

Guys guys guys. Don't waste too much time reading into the Pope's posts. If you take his posts, mix it with a little hay and water, and spread it over your tomato plants, you will have the tastiest, juiciest crop this side of Jersey.

That's probably one of your best ones yet!

[Reaper1]

Brain, I'm glad to hear that DP worked! I saw you got it running, so that's a great thing!

BTW, thanks for the encouragement. So far those 711's seem to be a pretty darn good tire for as inexpensive as they were! They're even kinda old...I bought them at least 4 years ago(possibly 5) and they didn't turn a single mile until last month! I had them mounted and never used them.

Guys, I appreciate the encouragements and such. I'm sorry if I lashed out a little. I know the car needs more tuning, and I also know my launches need to be cleaned up. My S5 cal is probably a little light on the timing area because I am running stock internals and such. I beleive Cindy took that in to account(I talked to her over the phone before ordering it). I've not messed with my timing at all, so that is something I probably could look in to to get a little more out of it. I just considered timing to be one of the last little things to change to get the last little "nth" out of the car, but it looks like I need to take it a little more seriously. I can honsetly say that I was a little dissapointed by the ET of the car, but I know that lies in the launch. I met my MPH goal, so I'm extremly happy with that!

I'm going to keep working at it for sure. I'd love to get the car to the 13's on those street tires. I don't run at the track enough to make specialty tires worth my $$$, so to run the car in street form is the best test for me. I also want to go to a dyno eventually. Given the weight of the car and the mph I ran I think that seeing 230whp isn't out of the question. I also want to see the torque curve so that I can get my shift points a little better. I'm mearly guessing right now. I know the car responded well to changing them from 5500 to 6000. I just get a little antsy about revving a lot. I'm used to the rev range of the 2.5. I also jsut don't want to break it! I did crack open the bottom end to check the bearings and I replaced the oil pump and pick-up as precautionary measures. Everything looked great!

Anyways, thanks guys...I do appreciate it.

[TurboJerry]

Guys guys guys. Don't waste too much time reading into the Pope's posts. If you take his posts, mix it with a little hay and water, and spread it over your tomato plants, you will have the tastiest, juiciest crop this side of Jersey.

That's awesome!

[cordes]

Guys guys guys. Don't waste too much time reading into the Pope's posts. If you take his posts, mix it with a little hay and water, and spread it over your tomato plants, you will have the tastiest, juiciest crop this side of Jersey.

We really need to compile a good list of quotes that we can link to. Actually, if anyone has some good pope quotes, I would be more than willing to host them on www.omniglht.com I think that would save a lot of time in allowing folks to know who is behind the quotes, especially new car guys that might take his advise.

ETA: I own page 3!