Need to satify Cali smog referee!

[mock_glh]

I've recently installed an '87 2.2 Turbo II engine in a friend's '82 Rampage. The first trip to the referee was a nightmare (for him, I wasn't there). He had an adjustable fuel regulator, an Begi regulator, a 3" downpipe and a blowoff valve that were not stock and of course could not be allowed. In addition, there was a mysterious 31 code and the speed sensor could not be read through the diagnostic port (there is no 15 code thrown). I was able to remove the regulators, downpipe and BOV, and make the 31 code go away but there was also the issue of the absent EGR. The car has both stickers for the '87 Shelby Lancer which show no EGR but the referee's book says that all '87 turbo cars have it. As far as I know, none of the '87, '88, or '89 TII cars had EGR, but how can I prove this? I thought we could show him the '87 factory service manual, only to discover that it shows the TII engines to have EGR. This guy wants to see some legitimate literature.:confused:

[ShelbyMotorsports]

I thought we could show him the '87 factory service manual, only to discover that it shows the TII engines to have EGR. This guy wants to see some legitimate literature.:confused:

Who knew :lol: The FSM shows the T-II with egr just like Boyd says.

You say that the car has both Shelby Lancer stickers. By that do you mean the vac diagram and the emission decal?

If so they should both show no egr valve. Did the tech look at them?

[turbovanman²]

Some cars did, some didn't. Some Canadian spec cars did, some didn't.

[tryingbe]

None of the TII I took apart in junkyard have EGR valves. And I probably have taking at least 15 + cars apart.

[zin]

I'll be interested in how this works out, I'm converting to TII (86 glh) and am not looking forward to the next Smog. My brother owns a 86 GLHS and he had a hell of a time getting it smogged, even though it still had the original Shelby emissions decal, etc. The guy started to peal it off to see the "original" or "legitimate" emissions decal! My Bro had to slap his had away! Then he had to produce the service supplements, service manuals, the sales brochures, still, the guy didn't want to accept it!! Said he couldn't find it in his books, so it wasn't right! Just another example of government efficiency! I think he eventually did get it passed as a later TII, I'll have to ask him what the final outcome was and how he did it. I'll post it once I talk to him. Hopefully your smog dude is not such a Richard Noggin, and get through more easily.

Mike

[Clay]

Did California cars have an EGR? I know some cars, even today, have either california state emissions or 48 state emissions, one or the other.

[tryingbe]

My 89 Daytona Shelby passed CA smog no problem, but I didn't have to go a referee.

I have not see ONE signle TII car in CA's junkyard with EGR equipment.

[supercrackerbox]

The way I understand it, the '86 GLHS and all 1987 California models had EGR. If you look or feel right under the elbow on a two piece intake, there is a boss cast into the intake, sometimes with a block off plate bolted to it.

[2.216VTurbo]

I'll be interested in how this works out, I'm converting to TII (86 glh) and am not looking forward to the next Smog. My brother owns a 86 GLHS and he had a hell of a time getting it smogged, even though it still had the original Shelby emissions decal, etc. The guy started to peal it off to see the "original" or "legitimate" emissions decal! My Bro had to slap his had away! Then he had to produce the service supplements, service manuals, the sales brochures, still, the guy didn't want to accept it!! Said he couldn't find it in his books, so it wasn't right! Just another example of government efficiency! I think he eventually did get it passed as a later TII, I'll have to ask him what the final outcome was and how he did it. I'll post it once I talk to him. Hopefully your smog dude is not such a Richard Noggin, and get through more easily.

Mike

Richard Noggin, good one Mike:lol: Imagine if there was one of your nitrous systems on there, that would cause some waves for sure...;)


So you out of staters ounderstand, a referee station is not the same as a 'test only' station. These guys are HARDCORE black or white, if the book says it, it has to be so to them. One of our locals got popped for some aftermarket intercooler tubing and a BOV, even after he put it 'back to stock' and went to the ref station, the dinged/failed him for some 'brass fittings' in the vaccum system (no, it wasn't a Grainger:evil: just some T fittings)

Put me on the list for being very interested in how this turns out... Gotta register the Rampage with it's 16 motor soon:thumb:


So Boyd, Lance's truck is up and running eh?? What no pics? And why the F won't he come to the CaSDAC meetings anymore??:confused:

[supercrackerbox]

I just know I'm really sweating passing smog in Phoenix.

[tryingbe]

I just know I'm really sweating passing smog in Phoenix.

You're kidding, right?

They check for three things in AZ. Gas cap, charcoal canister, and exhaust gas.

My GLH passed smog in AZ with a front mount intercooler.

http://www.thelostartof.net/omni/omnialmost_2999.JPG
http://www.thelostartof.net/omni/omnialmost_3000.JPG

[raccoon]

time to move! :)

[mock_glh]

Who knew :lol: The FSM shows the T-II with egr just like Boyd says.

You say that the car has both Shelby Lancer stickers. By that do you mean the vac diagram and the emission decal?

If so they should both show no egr valve. Did the tech look at them?

Yes, the vac and emission stickers. Apparently the tech ignored them.

[mock_glh]

So Boyd, Lance's truck is up and running eh?? What no pics? And why the F won't he come to the CaSDAC meetings anymore??:confused:

No recent pics yet. It basically looks like a stock '87 GLHS under the hood (especially now).

Lance would have to come to the meetings as "Bubble Boy" if he is to hang out in the parking lot with us. Being out in the night air is risky for someone with his condition (CF). Catching a cold could be pretty bad for him.

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Yes, the vac and emission stickers. Apparently the tech ignored them.

Checked the 1988 FSM and the 1988 T-II is just like the 1987 FSM meaning it shows an egr.

Only the 1987 GLHS Shelby supplement specifically mentions that there is no egr. The Lancer & CSX supplements just say refer to the Chrysler FSM.

Perhaps you can claim that the Rampage engine came out of a 1987 GLHS. You can even show the tech your 87 GLHS so he can see the decals.

[Tony Hanna]

Can't you guys just get a PO box in a neighboring state and title/liscense your cars in that state?
I did something similar for awhile on the Sundance so I wouldn't have to mess with a WV inspection. My new insurance company is giving me crap about it now though, so I'm going to have to either title it here or find another insurance company.

[mock_glh]

Perhaps you can claim that the Rampage engine came out of a 1987 GLHS. You can even show the tech your 87 GLHS so he can see the decals.

Ahh, if it were only a California car...:censored:

...but about that supplement. Ya got any? I have an '86 one but you know about those.

[ShelbyMotorsports]

Ahh, if it were only a California car...:censored:

...but about that supplement. Ya got any? I have an '86 one but you know about those.

Boyd

PM me your email address and I'll email you the page from the 87 supplement saying there is no egr.

Steve

[supercrackerbox]

You're kidding, right?

They check for three things in AZ. Gas cap, charcoal canister, and exhaust gas.

My GLH passed smog in AZ with a front mount intercooler.

That makes me feel better. Just have to find a new charcoal canister. Now to figure out how to pass an '85 TA with a SB 400 . . .

[Dusty_Duster]

This is why you couldn't pay me to live in California. :censored: that emissions crap.

[SwiftTech]

I had the weirdest experience at the smog referee station. This was my 84 daytona with the DC intercooler kit. The sticker with the CARB EO number on it had worn off and I couldn't find it, so normal smog shops wouldn't touch it. When I went to the ref station I explained to the man that it was a factory performance part and that there was an EO number for it but I didn't have it. He said technically he needed that number but would run the test anyway for me. He then proceeded to back my car onto the dyno because he thought it was a mustang and RWD:eek: After yelling at him and him scratching his head he got it on the dyno right. The car passed the test and he pulled it off the dyno. When he came into go over the paper work with me he told me that he would let this one go without the EO number, but he couldn't give me the official referee sticker for my car. He then said I should also have an EO number for the air fuel ratio guage I had on the pillar, but since he didn't see it until after he ran the test he would look the other way on that too. In the end I passed, but I'm not sure if the guy was cool, lazy, or just didn't care because no one else was there.

Cali emissions definately suck though. Each year my car gets closer and closer to failing. And good smog guys are getting really hard to find nowadays. I just hope they don't go wide spread with the mobile road side smog checks.

[contraption22]

People think that we should saw New Jersey off the country and push it out into the sea... I disagree. Something has to be done about the People's Republic of California.

[mech1nxh]

This guy wants to see some legitimate literature.:confused:

Just a thought here....
the part # is on the 87 TII emissions
label?
If so there should be a "paper trail" you can copy
and present .
That along with the FSM material should be more than adequate.

[tryingbe]

I thought we could show him the '87 factory service manual, only to discover that it shows the TII engines to have EGR. This guy wants to see some legitimate literature.:confused:

Here's why he can't use the FSM to prove his case.


I just checked my 89 FSM, it doesn't specifically say TII does not come with EGR.

[mech1nxh]

Here's why he can't use the FSM to prove his case.


I just checked my 89 FSM, it doesn't specifically say TII does not come with EGR.


Humble apologies...I meant to type in FSM AND SUPPLEMENT.
The FSM to prove the supplement's info (same year, model, etc)

Also, take both manuals to a local Field Office and talk with
a Field Rep, have him corroborate with the reff.

And the part # on the non-egr label...documentation
from a dealer order attempt should further validate
the info.

Again, apologies for the confusion, A.D.D. sucks lol!

[Dusty_Duster]

... He then said I should also have an EO number for the air fuel ratio guage I had on the pillar...

Since when do you need EO numbers for gauges?! That's ridiculous!

[SwiftTech]

Since when do you need EO numbers for gauges?! That's ridiculous!

I know! I've had it smogged once since that trip and luckily I found a guy that is really cool about that kind of stuff. As long as it is not blatently modified and looks stock and of course passes the sniffer he's okay with it:thumb:

[zin]

[QUOTE= I just hope they don't go wide spread with the mobile road side smog checks.[/QUOTE]

I don't know where you're at, but here in Orange County, specifically Huntington Beach, I've had to come back from lunch a different route at least 3 times! They seem to like setting up on Gram St South of Edinger in the north bound lanes because you can't see why the lane is closed until you can't turn away! (I head out going south, so I get tipped off). BTW, if you find yourself heading towards a "Survey Crew" (least that's what the sign says), you might want to make a "Bat Turn" before you're in their clutches.:yuck:

Mike

[tryingbe]

I'm glad I no longer live in CA.

[zin]

Richard Noggin, good one Mike:lol: Imagine if there was one of your nitrous systems on there, that would cause some waves for sure...;)

With a ref, non-stock spark plugs would probably make his butt twitch.:mad:
But, I've gotten cars smogged with all the nitrous stuff on the car, but not attached to the engine. Does depend on the Tech though, the ARB guys have alot of them sweating the details. Nothing like being fined thousands of $$ and not allowed to work for a month or more to make you not want to take a chance. I had a buddy of mine get sent to a ref because he didn't have black vacuum hoses!

It's getting just stupid. People (the uneducated masses) like to point to cars as the source of all things wrong with the air, but the reality is that they are not that big a part of the problem anymore. When GM does it's smog certs in LA, they have to evacuate the room of the outside air because it will throw off the test. Imagine, the air going in is dirtier than what's coming out!! I wish we could reign in these bastards in Sacramento... Stepping off the Soap Box now.

[johnl]

The system is unnecessarily complicated and wasteful.

Simple deal to sniff test cars. Complicated to equipment check/confirm.

Look at all the training that has to go into it. Then there's all the books and record keeping.

The question should be whether the car is clean or not.

Why is there such a push to confirm strict adherence to OEM configuration?
I'd like to be a fly on the wall - what do they say to each other? - the staff of the agencies, the staff of the automakers, and the staff of the legislators? What are their motives?

I mean there's got to be 10s of millions in unnecessary expense - just at the state level, let alone the money spent for training in the private sector.

I can see how the smog test equipment companies would lobby for more machines but NOT for OEM configurations. I can see too how the manufacuturers are against any modification of anything.

Its just dumb.

[tryingbe]

Because you have a bunch of people that knows nothing about cars that are making the laws.

Same for technologies.

[Aries_Turbo]

no the problem is liberal politicians.... they want to control everything and they do it through the guise of "clean air" and another crock, "global warming".... horse manure reasons.

Brian

[mech1nxh]

So...
mock_glh,
update??

[87glhs232]

So...
mock_glh,
update??

Yeah Boyd...the masses in Cali are waiting.....:nod:

[mock_glh]

Alright, here's the latest update. I just received a 1987 GLHS service manual supplement from ShelbyMotorsports. I believe this is the magic document that will get us through this dilemma. It describes everything that has been modified or removed from the stock vehicle. Now we just have to get back to the ref for a rematch.

Boyd

[supercrackerbox]

Why would you need an EO number for an A/F gauge?

[tryingbe]

It's California, you're guilty before proven innocence.

[mock_glh]

Why would you need an EO number for an A/F gauge?

To certify that it is not a device that changes the output signal of the O2 sensor. It could do that by trickling off some of the voltage and thus fooling the computer into richening the fuel mixture (although I don't know why you would want that at part throttle).

[Dusty_Duster]

To certify that it is not a device that changes the output signal of the O2 sensor. It could do that by trickling off some of the voltage and thus fooling the computer into richening the fuel mixture (although I don't know why you would want that at part throttle).

So following that line of logic, an aftermarket cigarette lighter would also need an EO to certify that it doesn't modify the engine voltage and create more horsepower and smog. :faint:

[LowSL2]

So following that line of logic, an aftermarket cigarette lighter would also need an EO to certify that it doesn't modify the engine voltage and create more horsepower and smog. :faint:

Pretty much... I hate smog techs and smog tests.

[Wes85L]

It wasn't a problem for me when I lived in MA but I had a stock car back then so I always passed. Florida has no emissions testing right now but it's heading that way.

http://www.kptv.com/automotive/13677475/detail.html

Everyone here modifies cars to their hearts content. No cats, no problem. It is illegal yes, but there are no checks so you can get away with it. And there's some of the worst polluters down here. Lots of people that don't ever change their oil or maintain their cars because there is no testing. I'm guaranteed to see some sort of smoke show every time I get on the road. :D So, in terms of cleaning the road of those vehicles, it would be a good thing, but not for the car enthusiast who maintains their ride.

[johnl]

So following that line of logic, an aftermarket cigarette lighter would also need an EO to certify that it doesn't modify the engine voltage and create more horsepower and smog. :faint:

Yeah, I wonder what would happen if you hooked the cig lighter to the sig (pun:lol: ) line of the 02 sensor?

[mech1nxh]

Pretty much... I hate smog techs and smog tests.

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10686 :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

To certify that it is not a device that changes the output signal of the O2 sensor. It could do that by trickling off some of the voltage and thus fooling the computer into richening the fuel mixture (although I don't know why you would want that at part throttle).

Hehe so my wideband O2 is illegal???

[Dodgeglht]

I live in Columbus, Ohio so we don't have emissions testing, so one question.... What is an EO number?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Emissions Approval # given by the CARB (California Air Resources Board) to all approved aftermarket parts that won't affect emmisions. It's a ----- of a process that cost's alot so that's why lots of parts are only 49 state legal.