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View Full Version : would a tbi header be a waste w/stock garret?



mo' parts
07-14-2007, 07:22 PM
i cracked a piston today, so the head has to come off. im prob. gonna do some mild port work on the stock 782. i have a tbi header already made, also have a swingvalve made w/ a 3in. weld ell. was curious if the header would be a waste of time or not at this point. i did pick up a ported stocker at SDAC, so worst case i could use it.

tryingbe
07-14-2007, 10:35 PM
I'd put a bigger turbo on it while you have everything out.

Aries_Turbo
07-14-2007, 11:31 PM
no it would not be a waste. anything that has the potential to help increase HP even with all other things being stock is not a waste. :) the only thing I might add at that time would be a .63 A/R housing to help free up a little more flow if you can get your hands on one for cheap.

Brian

Dave
07-15-2007, 01:18 AM
Definately would not be a waste. Turbo cars benefit most on the exhaust side. Anything that can help will help.

Tony Hanna
07-15-2007, 02:35 AM
no it would not be a waste. anything that has the potential to help increase HP even with all other things being stock is not a waste. :) the only thing I might add at that time would be a .63 A/R housing to help free up a little more flow if you can get your hands on one for cheap.

Brian

^+1
You might see a small benefit from the port work and header as-is. With the .48 turbine housing it will probably show up as faster spoolup, but you're still going to have a cork in the upper RPMs. Swapping to a .63 turbine housing would help you take full advantage of the other mods though.

moparzrule
07-15-2007, 08:20 AM
Stock T2 turbo with the .63 is a pretty decent turbo, I actually plan to do the same on my car for a little bit until I can afford a real hybrid.

mo' parts
07-15-2007, 11:45 AM
well, with money being an issue right now.. and this being on the CSX, im not sure how far i want to take it. with my car being low mileage and near all orig. ive been contemplating finding a 2 door shadow for playing around with.
i want to do some drag racing next season, and dont want to use this car for it, i really just want to keep driving it, while making it a little faster.

as far as a larger turbo, i have been trying to get my old one back from a friend, its got at least a 50 trim t4 wheel in a stock cover and about a stage 3 wheel on a .48 housing(never had it measured), just needs a rebuild. so ive been thinking of using that, being stock housings it should fit well back there w/the tbi header.

being as impatient as i am, i was thinking i would just toss the stock garret on there for now and continue driving it for the rest of summer.
where abouts does the stock .48 housing choke up? is it a matter of h.p. or flow thats the restriction? has anyone ever used a stocker on a tbi header? i used one on a tu header once, talk about spool up:D

thanks for the replies

shadow88
07-15-2007, 12:07 PM
I have a stock garrett on my tbi header. I also have a modified intake to help airflow. Both parts were installed at the same time, so gains from just the tbi header are a moot point for me.

I dynoed 266whp and 337wtq at 21 psi falling to 18 at redline. I know it will make more power with more boost (now running 24 psi)

As far as fitting a tbi header on a numbered car- you will have to calibrate the old knockometer on the firewall a little bit. This is not a concern for me, because it's just a shadow es, not a shelby car. Although, personally, I would do it to a numbered car too. Firewall bashing can be kept to a minimum.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/exhaust%20manifold/th_minorclearancing.jpg (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/exhaust%20manifold/minorclearancing.jpg)

moparzrule
07-15-2007, 01:17 PM
Adam, I would think it would be decently easy to change the turbo out on the TBI than on the stock manifold, so whenever you want to upgrade you might not have to pull the head.

mo' parts
07-15-2007, 03:26 PM
I have a stock garrett on my tbi header. I also have a modified intake to help airflow. Both parts were installed at the same time, so gains from just the tbi header are a moot point for me.

I dynoed 266whp and 337wtq at 21 psi falling to 18 at redline. I know it will make more power with more boost (now running 24 psi)

As far as fitting a tbi header on a numbered car- you will have to calibrate the old knockometer on the firewall a little bit. This is not a concern for me, because it's just a shadow es, not a shelby car. Although, personally, I would do it to a numbered car too. Firewall bashing can be kept to a minimum.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/exhaust%20manifold/th_minorclearancing.jpg (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/exhaust%20manifold/minorclearancing.jpg)

i remeber when you did the work, it helped alot when i made my header. thanks
also, those are excellent numbers. was that on a stock head?

and as far as the knock-o-meter on the shelby... no can do, just cant bring myself to it. if i could afford it, the car would be in storage somewhere under a cover:D but thats just me.
when i orig. made the header and swingvalve, i was making it for a glht, and it fit. tight, but it fit. i do believe i did give the firewall a wack or two, and trimmed the tunnel heatshield a hair. again, things i will not do to the csx.
i set it in place on a tbi shadow that i have(parts car), and it looked like it would clear, so we'll see.

mo' parts
07-15-2007, 03:31 PM
Adam, I would think it would be decently easy to change the turbo out on the TBI than on the stock manifold, so whenever you want to upgrade you might not have to pull the head.

im thinking the same thing..... so when the head comes off in the next couple days, i'll test fit it and if it clears the firewall im going for it.
but, im sure a true t4 cover and .63 may require firewall mods.

how would a stage 2or3 wheel in a .48 compare to a .63 stage 1 in terms of flow? limits?

moparzrule
07-15-2007, 03:38 PM
Well, I know many have tested different stage wheels in the .48 with the same results, no gain. The housing itself is a restriction much more than the stock wheel. I loved the .63 stage 1 on my daytona, full boost of 22 PSI around 3200 not bad.

shadow88
07-15-2007, 04:54 PM
1st off, Always glad to help, just as Russ Jerome and Joe O'Conner sent me helpful pictures and e-mails. I'm glad to see the info is passed along.

As you can see by the previous pictures, the firewall doesn't need to move very far. We're looking at less than 1/2" and about the same 1/2" in heat sheild trimming on my car with the header the way I did it. While the oil pan is off to replace that (those?) piston(s) you may as well do it. You'll need to relocate the oil drain into the oil pan. No, it's not all silicone. It's silicone around a weld and it doesn't leak. The old drainback was folded over in a vise and re-installed.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/together/th_downpipe.jpg (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/together/downpipe.jpg)
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/together/th_oildrain.jpg (http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j61/shadowt2/together/oildrain.jpg)

The exhaust will have to be cut shorter, and the intercooler pipes will have to be lengthened. Also, I had my rubber hose from the turbo outlet hitting the #4 exhaust runner. I slid a 3" tube over it to be a heat sheild,and although I planned on fixing that properly, It's been on there for 2 years now. lol

If you need any more pictures, I'll take them. Oh, and more or less, it's a stock swirl head with back cut valves and mild port matching and blending by me.

mo' parts
07-15-2007, 08:33 PM
Well, I know many have tested different stage wheels in the .48 with the same results, no gain. The housing itself is a restriction much more than the stock wheel. I loved the .63 stage 1 on my daytona, full boost of 22 PSI around 3200 not bad.

yeah, when i ran a .63 stage 1 it spooled nicely, the .48 stage 3 did seem slightly slower in spool. i may just run the stocker till winter.

mo' parts
07-15-2007, 08:39 PM
shadow, it looks like most of your trrimming was due to the swingvalve? not so much the ex. housing from what i see.
here is a pict of my swingvalve, im sure you saw it once before in the tbi header thread.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/573000-573999/573283_148_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/573000-573999/573283_150_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/573000-573999/573283_149_full.jpg

shadow88
07-15-2007, 10:14 PM
Yes, the reason for the firewall clearancing was for the swingvalve. I went for more of a "flow" elbow and required the additional space. Who knows if it's worth anything over anyone else's swingvalve. Your swingvalve looks like a nice compromise.

If you look back to the tbi pics thread or my old thread in the fabrication section called "intake mods" you'll see better pics of the exhaust housing to firewall clearance issues.

Did you finish your own modded intake? I noticed you started one with the elbow chopped off in the tbi pics thread.

mo' parts
07-16-2007, 07:33 AM
Did you finish your own modded intake? I noticed you started one with the elbow chopped off in the tbi pics thread.

no, its still sitting in the corner of the garage. i cut the elbow off then i ended up cutting the "plenum" off it also. basically its just the runners thats left. i did find a nice big sheet of aluminum at the job site though. its prob. 1/8in. thick and is 2'x3'. just never got around to doing anything else to it yet...

im pulling the head off today when i get home from work, so i should have a better idea if im going with the tbi or not.

contraption22
07-17-2007, 09:01 AM
I personally noticed no gain at all with the TBI header. The only thing it did was make removing the head a big PITA.

Your milage may vary.

SwiftTech
07-17-2007, 02:37 PM
Mike- what manifold were you running before you went with the tbi header? Just curious because the tbi header flows so much better than the stocker.

contraption22
07-17-2007, 04:00 PM
Ported stocker.

No doubt the TBI flows more. Anybody know if it makes more power?

I'm now using the TU header.

turbovanmanČ
07-17-2007, 04:16 PM
Mike- what manifold were you running before you went with the tbi header? Just curious because the tbi header flows so much better than the stocker.


All I can see the TBI header do is make the turbo spool faster on a stock turbo. If you've maxed it out, then I really can't see adding a TBI header will make any more power. My 2 cents.

Dusty_Duster
07-20-2007, 09:46 AM
OK, so I'm a n00b.

I don't understand what you guys are discussing here. Using a TBI header? You mean from a naturally-aspirated engine? How would that work with a turbo, and why would you do that?

Turbodave
07-20-2007, 11:43 AM
OK, so I'm a n00b.

I don't understand what you guys are discussing here. Using a TBI header? You mean from a naturally-aspirated engine? How would that work with a turbo, and why would you do that?

It's a modified cast iron TBI manifold actually, the stock outlet is cut off and a turbo flange is welded on. The ports on the manifold are closer to an equal length and give the exhaust gas a straight shot to turbo. 10 years ago when there were no headers on the market for these engines and not many guys were making their own a "TBI Header" was the hot ticket.

turbovanmanČ
07-20-2007, 12:33 PM
And they flow alot better than most headers, offer reduced lag with larger turbo's and are relativley cheap to make. The down side is there length, sometimes firewall mods and/or power steering removal.

Aries_Turbo
07-20-2007, 04:18 PM
i wonder if a TBI header could be used to relocate a turbo to wherever you want it... IE get some stainless pipe and mate it to the TBI outlet like the regular exhaust and route it to somewhere better, like over the trans or something. routing the exhaust might be a pain then but it might be worth a fun try. :)

Brian

moparzrule
07-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Would probably kill a lot of flow since the outlet is so tiny and you can only use 2'' exhaust pipe to the turbo. But it would be a cool idea. Sure would make the turbo pretty darn easy to replace, but the oil return would be a PITA. Possibly make the return in the front of the pan instead of the back?

Aries_Turbo
07-20-2007, 05:34 PM
I wouldnt use the donut flange for the idea... I would think that would have potential for leaks. Id still cut at least some of that flange off and use a flange thats easy to seal tight.

It only has to be as large as the turbine inlet or a little larger. i need to go outside and look at the one i have but its gotta be as large as that.

Brian

shadow88
07-22-2007, 09:12 PM
All I can see the TBI header do is make the turbo spool faster on a stock turbo. If you've maxed it out, then I really can't see adding a TBI header will make any more power. My 2 cents.

And strangely, I experienced the exact opposite. My lag went up in the rev range by 150-300 rpms. But, I also swapped intake manifolds at the same time. Between those 2 mods, removing a worn out S60 cam for a tbi roller, and fuel upgrades- I went 14.0@99 at 21 psi with the old stuff and 13.4@108 at 19 psi with the manifolds and fuel upgrades. I can't attribute the gain to either manifold on its own, because they were made to work together.

I've WAAY maxed out my stock garrett ( off the map) even when it ran 14.0's. Now the red line on the graph is even further to the right.

turbovanmanČ
07-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Well unfortuneatly, you changed the intake, cam so we really have no idea what just the exhaust manifold did, :(

shadow88
07-22-2007, 09:56 PM
I'm not trying to say it is an accurate back to back test result. I'm saying between the two major mods (manifolds) there was a huge gain even with the stock turbo.

turbovanmanČ
07-22-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm not trying to say it is an accurate back to back test result. I'm saying between the two major mods (manifolds) there was a huge gain even with the stock turbo.


I know, but its hard to guage what help it was. A flat cam will cause a big time power loss so changing that will effect it a ton.