Header progress

[8valves]

Wow... this has become time consuming. I've learned some things through the process so far that would've made a couple of issues easier, so that's a positive side.

Now... who thinks it will fit in an L body???

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0120.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0119.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0122.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0121.JPG

The answer later!!

[20w/ashelby]

Looks good. Equal length?

[GLHS592]

Looking good. One of these days, I'll get off my butt and attempt something like that.

[Frank]

L-body with a huge sledgehammer

[8valves]

L-body with a huge sledgehammer


I was waiting for SOMEONE to say it!! Have faith in me Frank!

Ha! Check this out!! I could sneak it by if I had to, but I think I'll make a nice box recession into the shock tower for the just in case clearance. But it would be possible with a tight bend there, I just don't want it off the end of my collector just yet.

Brandon, they're fairly close, although I didn't measure them to that point yet. In all reaility I'm not that worried about it.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0118.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0117.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0123.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0124.JPG

The big box w/ X on the shock tower was where it was going to need to be cut. But I got mad at myself and knew I could do better and re-did some angles and came up with a neater and tighter configuration.

Do I get your approval Frank? :eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

Looking good! :thumb:

[Frank]

Wow. Real good! If you want, you could put short tubes on each Y and then take the tubes to the flange. That will allow you to both stabalize the flow before the flange and to allow you to move the flange forward 6 inches if needed... or even more. Even if you have the angles right, you want to put shielding up, and that will take up the room for a flange.

[8valves]

Wow. Real good! If you want, you could put short tubes on each Y and then take the tubes to the flange. That will allow you to both stabalize the flow before the flange and to allow you to move the flange forward 6 inches if needed... or even more. Even if you have the angles right, you want to put shielding up, and that will take up the room for a flange.

:D See that motor mount there? That's where the entry to the divided scroll turbine housing will start and mount the turbo over top of the alternator. That gives it a good 6-7 inches of length to chill out a little bit, and also a very smooth merge area for the wastegate junction. I don't know if I'll be able to run dual wastegates like originally planned... I might only have room for one.

Should make for an interesting street car setup!

Right now my main concerns are putting upa heat shield over the tubes near the timing belt... I'm not sure if I could get it hot enough to stretch and/or break the belt.

[cordes]

Very cool. Why not make a heat shield that you could just bolt to the VC like the original timing belt cover?

[8valves]

Very cool. Why not make a heat shield that you could just bolt to the VC like the original timing belt cover?


Not a bad idea at all. I'll have to see what I have room for and what looks good too. I just hope I see the gains I was hoping for after all of this work.

[DodgeZ]

what is the reason to put the turbo over there?

[8valves]

Mulitple actually.

1) Long tubes for better management of exhaust pulses and reduced backpressure at the valve (in theory)
2) Adequate room for nice collector merges
3) Adequate room for nice wastegate placement rather than 90* off the manifold
4) Adequate room for larger frame turbos and ease of working on them
5) Adequate room to utilize a divided tang housing for my 30R
6) 3' shorter intercooler piping
7) Inlet air is now right in the front bumper with no length of piping to heat incoming air whatsoever
8) lost the entire weight of the exhaust system, since it now comes out the front bumper
9) It looks mean as hell
10) It will sound mean as hell
11) I wanted to make something that nobody else has
12) Makes using a cross flow intercooler more practical

It made sense to me! :)

[cordes]

Mulitple actually.

1) Long tubes for better management of exhaust pulses and reduced backpressure at the valve (in theory)
2) Adequate room for nice collector merges
3) Adequate room for nice wastegate placement rather than 90* off the manifold
4) Adequate room for larger frame turbos and ease of working on them
5) Adequate room to utilize a divided tang housing for my 30R
6) 3' shorter intercooler piping
7) Inlet air is now right in the front bumper with no length of piping to heat incoming air whatsoever
8) lost the entire weight of the exhaust system, since it now comes out the front bumper
9) It looks mean as hell
10) It will sound mean as hell
11) I wanted to make something that nobody else has
12) Makes using a cross flow intercooler more practical

It made sense to me! :)

I must say those are some good reasons. I really like the idea of a header there. the exhaust coming out the front is very attractive to me, as I dread the thought of trying to route it to the back of the car with an over the trans style setup like many have proposed.

[DodgeZ]

Mulitple actually.

1) Long tubes for better management of exhaust pulses and reduced backpressure at the valve (in theory)
2) Adequate room for nice collector merges
3) Adequate room for nice wastegate placement rather than 90* off the manifold
4) Adequate room for larger frame turbos and ease of working on them
5) Adequate room to utilize a divided tang housing for my 30R
6) 3' shorter intercooler piping
7) Inlet air is now right in the front bumper with no length of piping to heat incoming air whatsoever
8) lost the entire weight of the exhaust system, since it now comes out the front bumper
9) It looks mean as hell
10) It will sound mean as hell
11) I wanted to make something that nobody else has
12) Makes using a cross flow intercooler more practical

It made sense to me! :)

I'll be sure to watch how it turns out. :thumb:

[BadAssPerformance]

11) I wanted to make something that nobody else has

Man after my own heart! :thumb:

[contraption22]

Looks awesome Aaron!

About the dual wastegates... if you DON'T run them, will you bridge the two secondaries together to one gate? and if you do, won't that negate any advantage of having a split turbine housing to begin with?

Also, in lieu of, or in addition to the heat shield, i would recommend ceramic coating. And if you could use the OEM timing belt cover, you could cover it in some reflective heat barrier. The only problem I see with all that is being able to play with your cam timing if needed.

[8valves]

Looks awesome Aaron!

About the dual wastegates... if you DON'T run them, will you bridge the two secondaries together to one gate? and if you do, won't that negate any advantage of having a split turbine housing to begin with?

Also, in lieu of, or in addition to the heat shield, i would recommend ceramic coating. And if you could use the OEM timing belt cover, you could cover it in some reflective heat barrier. The only problem I see with all that is being able to play with your cam timing if needed.

All good points to be sure!

If I can't fit both gates, which isn't so much a space issue, but an issues of being happy with how the gas is pulled from the turbine entry area and still keep a smooth path to the gate, I will run only one gate with both tubes feeding it.

I have seen it work without much issue on DSM's/RX7's although it's not my preferred setup. I agree that there is a real possibility that there could be losses from some pulses trying to revert to the other tube. The other half of my brain asks if the tubes will be full and pressurized by that point anyways so very little movement will really occur?? If you have the answer let me know!

The header will be ceramic coated, and more than likely wrapped as well. I've grown to believe that the coating does a lot to contrbute to the strength of the header. Most obvious was JT's... 16 gauge steel that held up to years of abuse with no bracing or gusseting... those aren't typical results.

The downsides to that is that if it cracks for some reason, all that coating needs to be ground away to get a clean weld. So it might be tough to fix it if you ge ta crack, or it might crack if you dont' coat it... ahhhhh! Catch 22 I guess.

There should be 100% no reliability issues. That stuff is crazy thick, and I have good faith in my TIG abilities. Plus the header only has to support it's own weight partially, the turbo will help support it, which is braced to the alternator bracket and motor mount, possibly even cylinder head too!

Cam timing will be difficult if need be. BUT, the header should in reality be able to be off the car in under 30 minutes as there is ample access to all studs with everything else installed in the car as well. Same goes for the intake, and starter! V band downpipe from last year stays and makes turbo swaps a breeze.

Interesting that the Honda in the garage I keep my car sports an Innovative T72 (72mm compressor wheel as opposed to the 3076R 56.4mm!) with a divided 1.06 A/R T3 exhaust side with a T4 Q trim exhaust wheel! Wouldn't that make for an interesting swap?? :eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

...The header will be ceramic coated, and more than likely wrapped as well. I've grown to believe that the coating does a lot to contrbute to the strength of the header. Most obvious was JT's... 16 gauge steel that held up to years of abuse with no bracing or gusseting... those aren't typical results....

mild steel even... JetHot 2000F shtuff is da bomb :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

Looks good man, kudo's, :thumb:

[GLHNSLHT2]

nice looking but not sure if I like the proximity to the fuel lines. Also my race/street car must retain Power steering :)

[BadAssPerformance]

Power steering is sooo over rated... :thumb:

[8valves]

nice looking but not sure if I like the proximity to the fuel lines. Also my race/street car must retain Power steering :)

The fuel lines won't be there. I'm not using stock fuel lines anymore, and I use a universal Aeromotive FPR along with my nice shiny new TU fuel rail.

I haven't quite looked into where they'll be, but I want to incorporate a fuel cooler somewhere along the way as well.

And power steering? Every L body I've owned (3 now) the power steering has been off within a day of owning it. The cars feel way too twitchy under big power when PS is in place if you ask me.

[Frank]

Why do you want a fuel cooler? The hotter the fuel is, the easier it is to ignite. Cold air and hot fuel is the best. :)

[GLHNSLHT2]

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry had to have at least 5 characters?!?!??!

[BadAssPerformance]

cool fuel = more power :thumb:

[Frank]

Umm cooler fuel requires more energy to ignite and more energy for flame propagation. That means longer burn times.

[BadAssPerformance]

Higher octane requires more energy to ignite too, no?

[Frank]

Yes. But it doesn't make more power. It allows you to make more power.

Hotter fuel allows for better mixing since it evaporates easier. Not saying anything about more power... just burn dynamics.

[cordes]

Wouldn't cooler fuel in our applications help to stave off detonation?

[Frank]

In theory

[BadAssPerformance]

Yes. But it doesn't make more power. It allows you to make more power.

exactly

[8valves]

There's a reason a top alcohol motor makes 3000 HP and the nearly identical top fuel nitro motor makes 8000!!

I agree that warmer fuel will be easier to burn, but like JT said, same with 87 octane. The cooler initial temp should help stave off detonation, and the old school boys have found it to be worth some power.

It's a cheap, fairly at least, investment that can be eliminated just as easily if it doesn't work. I think it might though.

Hooray for long header tubes!!

I'm off for Carlisle though... if anybdy is paying attention stop by Mopar Performance's trailer... I'll be the kid there that isn't old enough to drink!

[Frank]

I think though, you wont need it with a good header like that. If you put a 4" downpipe exhaust, you will need it even less. If you put a low overlap cam it, even less again. If you have an intercooler setup like your old shelby, then even better.

[Frank]

exactly

Mr word games. :p

[contraption22]

Remember Smokey Yunick's "Hot Air" engine projects? I think it was based on the same principle. He built a Hot-Air Omni. It had high compression, a turbo, pre-heated fuel, made almost as much power as a production T1, knocked like hell, and didn't get much better milage.

[puppet]

There's a reason a top alcohol motor makes 3000 HP and the nearly identical top fuel nitro motor makes 8000!!

I agree that warmer fuel will be easier to burn, but like JT said, same with 87 octane. The cooler initial temp should help stave off detonation, and the old school boys have found it to be worth some power.


The old school drag guys cool the fuel more for consistency. Predictable fuel burn is good for them ($$$ and wet pants). Pretty much the only benefit to cooling fuel ... reducing intake temps. Without the boring math involved I think reducing air temperatures by 5-6* will probably yield similar results to reducing fuels temps by 40-50*.

On the other hand, if fuel isn't vaporized it just won't light off. Low end response will probably suck. Something to think about.

[8valves]

Low end response will probably suck. Something to think about.

Low end? What is this low end you speak of? ;)

We'll see what actually happens.

Frank, the exhaust will still be 3", possibly with a reducer to 2.5" on the exit since we found some interesting results on a friends car experimenting with that. :)

Also, the same intercooler setup as before is being used, but with better pipe routing and 3' shorter pipe, and a 65MM TB, a much better made/sized plenum, valve springs that will actually work, and a nifty cam from Mr. Menegon. I'd say it should be a fairly interesting ordeal once it's all said and done.

I'm highly considering just doing a single entry to the turbine right now though... it makes the finishing touches much simpler and one wastegate will be sufficient, I just lose out on the money I spent on flanges. Oh well. Plus by necking it down a couple inches after the 4-2, into a say 2" single pipe there would be some hella velocity right there!

Off to Carlisle, see you guys out there at the MP booth!

[BadAssPerformance]

Off to Carlisle, see you guys out there at the MP booth!

You working or showing a car? Gonna be at the Nats?

[puppet]

Low end? What is this low end you speak of? ;)

Heh ... I get ya. Since it's consistency you're after, go for cooling it.

[8valves]

You working or showing a car? Gonna be at the Nats?

Working :D . I'm also scheduled to be at the Nats, so that should be fun as I've never been to it.

Hopefully I'll get some more progress done in the next couple of weeks. We'll see what the schedule looks like.

[contraption22]

I stopped by the MP booth and purchased a catalog. I have no idea if I saw you there or not! haha

[BadAssPerformance]

Working :D . I'm also scheduled to be at the Nats, so that should be fun as I've never been to it.

Hopefully I'll get some more progress done in the next couple of weeks. We'll see what the schedule looks like.

Cool :thumb:

Hope you can make it, if so, we'll have to catch up... any luck and I'll have a big red car there too ;)

[8valves]

I stopped by the MP booth and purchased a catalog. I have no idea if I saw you there or not! haha


Quite possibly, I was the one who looked 14! There were times that I was there and some times not, it just depends on which day you stopped in. There are two young guys, myself and Canyon, who is part of the truck crew. He has real dark hair and I don't... so there's the difference.

The silver Magnum (lowered on SRT8 wheels, Mopar M on the back window) we had on display is my work car. Usually I was walking people around that explaining our stage one kit for the 5.7 cars to them.

Steve Menegon and Brian Slowe and Tim Pettijohn found me! I thought they were going to take me to the side and slit my throat for not getting them their main caps in time... turns out they're not that mean! Nice to meet all of you guys that I did. If not stop by at the Nats... maybe I'll have my car there.

[20w/ashelby]

does this mean you get a sweet MP discount?

[8valves]

does this mean you get a sweet MP discount?

I have no idea... but what would I buy?? My boss even asked me how many MP parts I've used to get to where I'm at. I told him I have one left, an S60 wiring harness. The rest have been gone and sold pretty much.

[20w/ashelby]

I was thinking for myself LOL.

[8valves]

I was thinking for myself LOL.


Ha, not yet! I'm still new here. I'll wait on things like that for some time until I've more established what I'm capable of and what I can provide the company.

[20w/ashelby]

Haha yea I was just messing with you anyway. So I'm assuming this is the bada$$ summer internship you were talking about.:thumb:

[8valves]

Haha yea I was just messing with you anyway. So I'm assuming this is the bada$$ summer internship you were talking about.:thumb:

:eyebrows:

[BadAssPerformance]

Cool internship... so where do you go to school?

[8valves]

Cool internship... so where do you go to school?

http://unoh.edu/academics/collegetechnologies/

Enrolled in High Performance Automotive as well as Alternate Fuel Technologies.

I can say with fairly strong confidence that you won't find a finer school to learn what makes things tick, and how to make them tick faster.

[20w/ashelby]

http://unoh.edu/academics/collegetechnologies/

Enrolled in High Performance Automotive as well as Alternate Fuel Technologies.

I can say with fairly strong confidence that you won't find a finer school to learn what makes things tick, and how to make them tick faster.


Agreed. You can learn as much as you want. Unfortunately the lack of entrance requirements allows way too many people in that bring down the reputation.

[BadAssPerformance]

Looks like a decent school :thumb:

[Pandemoniac]

Agreed. You can learn as much as you want. Unfortunately the lack of entrance requirements allows way too many people in that bring down the reputation.

LOL reminds me of NASCAR techhnical institute in mooresville NC. For every one smart student that knows his stuff there's 100 imbeciles that got there on their parents money and exhibit the world's biggest egos and smallest level of common sense. I've had to deal with a lot of 'em. :yuck:

8valve's school looks a hell of a lot better though :) And he looks to be a damn fine student by studying his projects. Wish I could afford to go!

[8valves]

Brandon, 20w/whateverhisnameis, is also a student there. We have the same situation as you described, in about the same ratio. If you want to learn, you'll have more than you can handle. If you want to screw off and just get a degree, you can do that too, but don't expect many teachers to back up your resume.

Every instructor I've had has been more than happy to have their name put on my list of referecnes, including the Dean and the President of the school. That definately helps!

Anywho, back to the header. Hopefully next weekend I'll be able to scoot down there and get the final mockup done on it. At that point I'll know it's going to fit and ready to weld up. However, a little birdy found some interesting cylinder head parts for me... so I may ditch this entirely.

[DodgeZ]

Why do you want a fuel cooler? The hotter the fuel is, the easier it is to ignite. Cold air and hot fuel is the best. :)

Don't you run race gas because it doesn't ignite faster and takes longer to burn???

[8valves]

Don't you run race gas because it doesn't ignite faster and takes longer to burn???

Yes, but that's also why it's advisable to use the least amount of octane possible. If you've got a mild car that doesn't need leaded 110 but you run it anyways, chances are it runs like junk.

Same goes for the C16 craze the world is on right now. Some people need it, a LOT of people don't, but use it anyways. It's just that much harder to get to burn.

[Pandemoniac]

A guy I work with pumps 93 octane and then adds a bottle of octane boost at Every fill-up... to his 90-something nissan sentra that's stock save for fart pipe, cone filter kit and 17s. He swears up & down it makes a difference, I swear up & down he's an imbecile. At least he dropped the "it's quicker than you think" BS after he tried to get the jump on me at a stoplight on the way home! :bolt:

[8valves]

Update... slow progress, but a bunch of ideas have been written off/solidified after getting the turbo mounted and hood test fit. At first there wasn't going to be room for the divided setup and I was going to be set back waiting on tubing to do a single entry turbine. But, after a few Blue Moon's and some creative thinking a new solution was developed, I will reveal that after I get some more completed. It looks as though I won't be able to touch the car for another 3-4 weeks though, so it appears as though I will have a very late entrance to the racing season, if at all this year. :( Oh well, priorities, right?

On to the pictures! Let's see who has some sharp eyes! Please excuse the mess, after the fabricating is done the entire engine bay will be stripped and painted.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0149.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0152.JPG

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0150.JPG

I thought this was a pretty cool picture...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/709/DSCF0151.JPG

[Frank]

Since you still have things in prototype stages, I have a suggestion. For the merge point between between cylinder 1/3 and 2/4, I would move them way closer to the head and run longer secondaries to the turbo. This will increase your top end power as it will allow you to have twice the harmonic frequency range and be more likely to get power gains. This will still allow you to run divided housing as planned.


Frank

[Captain Chaos]

Yes, but that's also why it's advisable to use the least amount of octane possible. If you've got a mild car that doesn't need leaded 110 but you run it anyways, chances are it runs like junk.

Same goes for the C16 craze the world is on right now. Some people need it, a LOT of people don't, but use it anyways. It's just that much harder to get to burn.

http://www.dvorakmachine.com/tech_WhatAboutFuel.shtml
Here's a neat read from a super stock racer on how even the "pros" back in the day hade the more is better mentality in regards to octane.:thumb:

Aaron you'll be at the Mopar trailer for the Nats?

[8valves]

Since you still have things in prototype stages, I have a suggestion. For the merge point between between cylinder 1/3 and 2/4, I would move them way closer to the head and run longer secondaries to the turbo. This will increase your top end power as it will allow you to have twice the harmonic frequency range and be more likely to get power gains. This will still allow you to run divided housing as planned.


Frank

I have 9" of secondary without the bends into the flange counted in, so consider them 11.5". I'm nervous to go closer to the head for multiple reasons... I really don't like the idea of having two cylinder's worth of air into a 1.65 ID pipe for an extended period of time. Maybe it's just fine, but in my mind I'm not so sure about it. Also, that would require mega time to re-configure every runner. It would basically be throwing away everything I have and starting over to allow clearance for everything behind the engine.

To have both collectors closer to the head would reuire encroaching on the starter and the intake more-so to get them in a good position for ease of weldability. That was a big point on this... I'm trying to give myself as much access to everything as I can to weld it up nicely as well.

I think I'll run it like this and see what happens. Regardless of anything design wise I know it will be better than the log style, no matter what I do. And for this car the small changes here and there I think will be negligable in the end. As in, there are worse things, even with a great 8V head, in the pipline still that are making it difficult to make big power for a long period of time.

Sounds like a decent idea though. I've been looking at a lot of the fast cars out there trying to get an idea of what they've been changing over the years and which designs seem to stick around rather than dissapear after a short stint.

I guess we'll see what happens! :nod:

[8valves]

http://www.dvorakmachine.com/tech_WhatAboutFuel.shtml
Here's a neat read from a super stock racer on how even the "pros" back in the day hade the more is better mentality in regards to octane.:thumb:

Aaron you'll be at the Mopar trailer for the Nats?

That's exactly the point I was making earlier, good to see more people talking about it.

Yes, I will be there at the trailer and elsewhere I'm sure throughout the weekend.

[Frank]

If you are winding up with 11.5" secondaries, then you should be fairly well off!! I will do the math later this afternoon.

[Frank]

Wow, I did the math and with 11.5" secondaries, you should be at the 2nd standing wave harmonic, which stabalizes flow, in the frequency range of 6000rpm +/- 500. This is due to EGT causing flucuations in the speed of sound. So my calculations were at 1600* F. Since primary runners are half the frequency of secondary runners (since it has twice the cylinders), the primary runners will only be at the 4th harmonic at 6000rpm. So 6000rpm is going to be your sweet spot.

So how long are the primary runners? I can calculate the sweet spot for those.

[Captain Chaos]

Wow, I did the math and with 11.5" secondaries, you should be at the 2nd standing wave harmonic, which stabalizes flow, in the frequency range of 6000rpm +/- 500. This is due to EGT causing flucuations in the speed of sound. So my calculations were at 1600* F. Since primary runners are half the frequency of secondary runners (since it has twice the cylinders), the primary runners will only be at the 4th harmonic at 6000rpm. So 6000rpm is going to be your sweet spot.

So how long are the primary runners? I can calculate the sweet spot for those.

:confused: I wish I knew/understood what you were talking about.

[8valves]

Wow, I did the math and with 11.5" secondaries, you should be at the 2nd standing wave harmonic, which stabalizes flow, in the frequency range of 6000rpm +/- 500. This is due to EGT causing flucuations in the speed of sound. So my calculations were at 1600* F. Since primary runners are half the frequency of secondary runners (since it has twice the cylinders), the primary runners will only be at the 4th harmonic at 6000rpm. So 6000rpm is going to be your sweet spot.

So how long are the primary runners? I can calculate the sweet spot for those.


Primaries are as follows, and as obvious, not equal. I could modify #3 to match #2, but I probably won't.

#1 26"
#2 24"
#3 19"
#4 26"

FYI, the car made peak power last year at 6000 rpm on the nose. That was with a TU log header.

The cam will be different this year, although I will likely try it after I re-dyno the car to see how big of a difference just the header made, or at least closer to just the header.

[Frank]

Well since your primaries are that long, your sweet spot for them will be 5500rpm with the exception of #3. #3's sweet spot should be around 6600 rpms. I know these sweet spots will add power... enough that you have to worry about fuel imbalance between cylinder? No clue. So just an FYI.

Ideally, you would want to shorten all but #3 down to 20 inches and then shrink your secondaries down to 10 inches. That would give you both sets of sweet spots to the 6500 +/- 200.

Your second best option is to equal out #3 to the rest. That gives you good scavenging for 5500 rpm. I would then shorten up the secondaries by 1 inch to up the other sweet spot by a few hundred rpm.

:D :D


Frank

[8valves]

Well since your primaries are that long, your sweet spot for them will be 5500rpm with the exception of #3. #3's sweet spot should be around 6600 rpms. I know these sweet spots will add power... enough that you have to worry about fuel imbalance between cylinder? No clue. So just an FYI.

Ideally, you would want to shorten all but #3 down to 20 inches and then shrink your secondaries down to 10 inches. That would give you both sets of sweet spots to the 6500 +/- 200.

Your second best option is to equal out #3 to the rest. That gives you good scavenging for 5500 rpm. I would then shorten up the secondaries by 1 inch to up the other sweet spot by a few hundred rpm.

:D :D


Frank


Unfortunately, no can do. Without severely hacking the flowpath up by cheating bends I can't curl the tubes around any harder than they are, so shortening while keeping a nice radiaus bend is impossible at this point.

To shorten the secondaries, the primaries would have to get longer, which we already covered, and there is ZERO room to shorten the primaries themselves. I clear the motor mount by about 1/4" as is, and to get rid of the bend which would change the length, the turbo will be out of the hood. Once again, no go.

I guess I'll just slap it on and see what happens. I think it's a bit overkill for sure, but I know not many other header manufacturers in this business even have a CLUE at what you are trying to equate!

Thanks for the input. I like to think that it looks pretty bad---- though, that's for sure!

[cordes]

Thanks for the input. I like to think that it looks pretty bad---- though, that's for sure!

You have sucessfully cornered the market there. :thumb:

[Frank]

Well in case it got clouded by my last posts, the header does look sweet and you are doing a fine job. Balancing fitments and design is the hardest thing to do.


Frank

[8valves]

Well in case it got clouded by my last posts, the header does look sweet and you are doing a fine job. Balancing fitments and design is the hardest thing to do.


Frank


Oh no, no clouding! It has been tough deciding what would work the best with the least amount of headaches and best possible design principles. I had to give up my super smooth transition from collector into the wastegate feed pipe on the 2/3 runner because of fitment, but at least I could keep them entirely divided.

Let me tell you though, it is WAY fun getting it to work. It wastes away time like you wouldn't believe. I have several hours in just getting the two mounting brackets correct to position it JUST so, to allow clearance for everything. At the end of the day I tend to ask myself what did I REALLY accomplish, and it's tough when all you see is two brackets, yet you solved 4 different problems with them.

[Dusty_Duster]

I wish I had fabrication skills like that. It really does look like fun.

[8valves]

I wish I had fabrication skills like that. It really does look like fun.

It is up until you run into severe fitment issues, or you have a vision of what you want the piece to turn out like, and then you realize that there just isn't room.

That's where this whole project came from. I wanted to place the turbo behind the engine like normal at first, but just wasn't happy with what it would force me to compromise with in design principles.

Go around to a local vocational school and take a nightly welding class that specializes in TIG. After a couple weeks of welding you'll get very comfortable with it and look forward to things like this.... as long as you have the right tools.

[cj011]

Frank can you give us some links about wave tuning?

[8valves]

Made some more progress... it's turning out way tougher to fit than I had hoped for, but overall I think I'm accomplishing all of my goals.

The only thing I'm concerned about it overheating the timing belt causing some stretch. The header will be coated and wrapped (clearance permitting) to try to avoid this as well.

All in all, I personally think it's the most agressive looking setup I've seen in some time, so that's got to count for something!!

Enjoy and comment as you please! The fitment on the secondaries is shody in these pictures. I was just anxious to see how it would look/fit. I actually fully welded the collector and watched it move all over, making me re-do the secondaries. It worked out well though, tightenign things up even more, and making the gaps next to nothing.

Life would be so much better if I had a vertical band saw there! Can you believe ALL pipe cuts are done on a single angle mitre saw? Yeah, I'm crazy.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Dsc01237.jpg

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Dsc01240.jpg

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Dsc01242.jpg

[BadAssPerformance]

Life would be so much better if I had a vertical band saw there! Can you believe ALL pipe cuts are done on a single angle mitre saw? Yeah, I'm crazy.

Vertical band saws and compound mitre saws rule for angled cuts on tube :thumb:

Looking good :thumb:

[Frank]

So how are you going to tighten the timing belt?????

[BadAssPerformance]

So how are you going to tighten the timing belt?????

Probably thru the wheel well like yer supposed to? ;)

[8valves]

Probably thru the wheel well like yer supposed to? ;)

:D

Yeah, amazingly enough everything is fairly accessible, even the adjusters for the cam gear if need be. Looking back on it now, it would've been far easier to just make the cold side IC pipe route up this side and put the turbo on the drivers... but this is way cooler!

Also, a 4-1 would've been simpler as well, with only one wastegate, and a small diameter secondary, everything would slip right by without issue. Oh well!

I'm quite proud of it though, I think it is flat out BA looking, and should make some big time power gains for me across the board compared to a log.

It came out longer than hoped for, with the secondaries comign out at enarly 12 inches I think. I'm going off memory, when it is entirely tacked and off the chassis I can do a nice measurment of each runner.

Plus, i will challenege all other FWD 8 Valve cars to a dual of starter changing! Psh, it is entirely exposed now, so nice! :thumb:

[20w/ashelby]

Looks awesome Aaron. I can't wait to see that thing together. You need to let me know when it's running and ill make the drive to check it out.

On a thread hi-jacking note....when do traction mods come? :thumb:

[8valves]

Looks awesome Aaron. I can't wait to see that thing together. You need to let me know when it's running and ill make the drive to check it out.

On a thread hi-jacking note....when do traction mods come? :thumb:

Thanks.

At the going rate it seems like it might never be done. I've only got one moer session at school, so sometime between then and now (end of 4th week today) it has to be together and running. We'll see though.

Traction mods will just be the LSD and a brand new set of DR's the replace last years, which were promptly destroyed within 3000 miles. I want to modify the fenders and run a large offset to fit a 255, but that might not happen. I'm going to have to cut some corners to get it driveable. So, the fuel system might need to go in over teh winter as opposed to now, etc etc.

[20w/ashelby]

You keep taking your time and maybe I'll put mine together. Maybe we can trash talk about a race at SDAC again.:eyebrows:

[Aries_Turbo]

i assume no power steering and a revised alternator mount?

Brian

[8valves]

i assume no power steering and a revised alternator mount?

Brian

I don't ever run PS on my cars, I hate it. The car was twichty under boost in almost stock form if you ask me, so it would be a nightmare now.

No modifications to the alternator mount needed, it actually helps to support the turbo.

[Aries_Turbo]

nice!

Brian

[WVRampage]

Thats looking great,one day I hope to be that good.

[8valves]

It looks better finish welded, I think!

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0007.jpg

[Turbodave]

It looks awesome! Can't wait to see it all together.

[overlordsshadow]

looks heavy.....

[8valves]

looks heavy.....

It'll match your heavy right foot!

It's very heavy. Good thing it's putting all of it's weight over the front end of the car, and the weight of the turbo is up there now too.

I'll will be saddle braced to the motor mount, and the turbo is self bracing, so there shouldn't be any issues with durability, but we'll see. I'm betting I melt a timing belt first. :p

[overlordsshadow]

That you might. But that wrap stuff sure works good man.

[8valves]

That you might. But that wrap stuff sure works good man.

Sure does. Even better when it's coated, then wrapped. The header on our Talon can be touched minutes after it's running with no problem with that combination.

[cordes]

Very cool Aaron. I hope you can get it together by turbopaloza, and I hope my cars don't go boom before then. :nod:

[8valves]

Very cool Aaron. I hope you can get it together by turbopaloza, and I hope my cars don't go boom before then. :nod:

Psh, not a chance. Motor isn't even together. I'm pretty sure it won't run by winter. Sad, isn't it? At least it will be done right by spring!

[Ondonti]

I must say those are some good reasons. I really like the idea of a header there. the exhaust coming out the front is very attractive to me, as I dread the thought of trying to route it to the back of the car with an over the trans style setup like many have proposed.

3x30 degree bends and you have a downpipe from an over the trans turbo right into the stock location.
Its not a dread at all. I have one afterall.

[8valves]

3x30 degree bends and you have a downpipe from an over the trans turbo right into the stock location.
Its not a dread at all. I have one afterall.

Except when you have an 8V L body like Cordes and I, and now you have your battery, air intake, compressor discharge, intercooler discharge, a bov, and your TB all tucked in there. I know for a fact I wouldn't have been able to build the header I wanted to far enough forward, still have a nice collector, and fit the TB inlet on that side. It would've been far worse for me.

[Ondonti]

Seems like a lot of that can be "moved" but with stock electronics your bumper downpipe would not work so well.

You built your own intake so you could flip the throttle body around.

I know trying to pack everything into the front driver corner of the car is not such a good idea. I think those little Hawker batteries are great and they free up a ton of space and can be put just about anywhere including inside the fender or in in front of the engine bay behind the bumper etc. Even if your setup fits well, getting the battery out of the engine bay makes things so much nicer to work on. Not a trunk battery fan though.

I can say though I guess you are helping the weight balance of the car lol :D

[8valves]

I can say though I guess you are helping the weight balance of the car lol :D

This was actually put into consideration when I did this. My front was unbalanced and biased to the drivers side as usual. Now it should be much closer.

My car runs a legit S60 harness; I'm not willing to modify it to move my battery any distance away from where it is now. I ran a trunk mounted battery last year to get the room I needed for all of the piping.

The downpipe out the side of the bumper doesn't interfere with any of my electronics, since the only wiring over on the passenger side is the coil. It has enough length to be re-positioned, and the solenoid bank is ran inside the cabin. S60 harness' also don't have the side market lights functional on 2 door L bodies.

Chances are likely that I will convert this car to be ran by AEM soon enough, in which I can sell the S60 harness to someone who needs it, and uncut.

[Ondonti]

You can fit a hawker in the fender of a P or A body and run the wires through the large square holes in the frame rail...or just fit it on the side of the frame rail in front of the clutch lever (down low).
If the battery clamps didnt reach you could easily remedy that without cutting anything :P

AEM ftw though!

[8valves]

New Update:

It's finished, and coated. I'll get to wrapping it after I finish moving. Excuse any mess you see in the background, I've been frantically packing for the last three days.

Enjoy.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0003-1.jpg

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0004-1.jpg

[cordes]

What are you going to put that in since you are going to be selling your other car.

[8valves]

What are you going to put that in since you are going to be selling your other car.

Fastest response ever.

I don't know yet. I just picked it up today, as well as my shortblock. I'm holding onto the entire setup for now, I'll just have to wait for the right time to find a nice car down south and work away at it.

Making sure I can make rent and truck payments are critical for now though.

[cordes]

Fastest response ever.

I don't know yet. I just picked it up today, as well as my shortblock. I'm holding onto the entire setup for now, I'll just have to wait for the right time to find a nice car down south and work away at it.

Making sure I can make rent and truck payments are critical for now though.

I can understand that for sure. I love it when people have their head screwed on fiscally straight. Keep us updated.

[airagitated]

WOW man that looks great!! Nice job.

[overlordsshadow]

What is it coated with? Looks deadly by the way.

[8valves]

What is it coated with? Looks deadly by the way.


I do all of my coatings through Dart Machinery.

The header and the bottom of the intake are done in their DC2 coating.

My main and rod bearings are done in DCB-3.

My crank is coated in DC-5.

There are a few others here and there that aren't so publicly offered, and whether or not they help can be debated all day. I believe in them though.

[WVRampage]

Looks great,The mess isnt that bad at least there is a hugh turbo in it.

[Xtrempickup]

if that going to run just exhaust from 2 cyl?

[8valves]

Looks great,The mess isnt that bad at least there is a hugh turbo in it.


Since you mentioned it, here is about 3/4 of the mess...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0005-1.jpg


And sadly enough, my "big" turbo is the baby of the family. The real big one is in the garage. Note relation of 30R compressor cover to my brother's exhaust housing. :mad:

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0007-1.jpg

[8valves]

if that going to run just exhaust from 2 cyl?

No, it's called divided tangential. Cylinders 1 and 4 are paired, and 2 and 3 are paired to run into a divided exhaust housing. They tend to spool faster and pick up on the top end as well if done right. Sadly, I had to suffice for only one wastegate due to space constraints.

[WVRampage]

Mice mess.I notice there is some juice there to help with spooling,and what is your brothers car.

[8valves]

Mice mess.I notice there is some juice there to help with spooling,and what is your brothers car.

Not for spool, it does plenty of that on it's own! It's the "just in case" tool.

1998 Eagle Talon street/race car.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSC01210.jpg

[contraption22]

I don't know if this has been covered eariler in the thread, but won't bridging the two secondaries to one wastegate negate any effect of the tangental setup?

[WVRampage]

Was that car at the import face off at national trail.

[8valves]

I don't know if this has been covered eariler in the thread, but won't bridging the two secondaries to one wastegate negate any effect of the tangental setup?


Hopefully not. There are a good number of fast cars on divided housings that use a single wastegate. Does it negate the effects of the design? I'm sure it can't really help, but I didn't really have another choice at the time.

RX7's, namely, rearely ever use twin gates but almost always use divided housings due to the nature of their firing pulses. They don't seem to have issues, but who could really tell you? I don't have the data aquisition equipment to figure it out, that's for sure.

[8valves]

Was that car at the import face off at national trail.

Yes, that's where that picture was from.

That was our first time out with the car from when we got off the dyno. Sadly, the misfire we were having at 9300 rpms intermittantly turned out to be the valve stem length was .030" too long, taking out the lifter preload and floating the valves after pressure started to build in the head after a gear or so pull.

That was a ----- tracking down, but it's fixed now. We've now gone 10.51 @ 142.5 mph at only 22 psi, which is our wastegate spring pressure, with a mild 1.70 60'

[Vigo]

Sadly, the misfire we were having at 9300 rpms intermittantly turned out to be the valve stem length was .030" too long, taking out the lifter preload and floating the valves after pressure started to build in the head after a gear or so pull.
That was a ----- tracking down


understatement... that sounds like a HUGE PITA. the kinda thing that would set the average enthusiast back weeks or months and make the posers give up.


nice pic, nice time, nice header.

good luck with the move!

[t2_85_lebaron]

that header looks sick!

[t2_85_lebaron]

whats that other pipe go to?

[8valves]

whats that other pipe go to?

TiAL 44 mm wastegate.

Thanks for the compliments.

[t2_85_lebaron]

nice nice... thats a cool setup, nice location for the turbo too, shoots right to the intercooler. so what are you going to do with the downpipe? run it under the oil pan?

[8valves]

nice nice... thats a cool setup, nice location for the turbo too, shoots right to the intercooler. so what are you going to do with the downpipe? run it under the oil pan?

Out the front bumper she goes.

[20w/ashelby]

Out the front bumper she goes.


*cough* dyno queen *cough*

;)

[t2_85_lebaron]

Out the front bumper she goes.

bwahahahahaha :clap: thats some sick ----

[8valves]

*cough* dyno queen *cough*

;)

I prefer the term street queen. :clap:

[t2_85_lebaron]

I prefer the term street queen. :clap:

lol... as long as the cops wont be on your --- about it you should be fine ;)

[t3rse]

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/DSCF0007-1.jpg

mines bigger! haha

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/turbine/turbine%20004.jpg

[t2_85_lebaron]

+1 on that one :-p thats a gnasty turbo though ;)

[t3rse]

that dsm is hella slick for sure.

[8valves]

Ha, apparently you've never compared a DSM head next to a 2.0/2.4 head. Neon's end up looking baby compared them. The cam gears are like a foot each!!

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/Eight_Valves/Dscf0153.jpg

[t3rse]

actually i have one in the garage. I ended up a ton of dsm parts when my friend skipped town owing me a lot of money. the perspective of the pic might be throwing it off, there are more pics in that dir. it's not going on a car though...mismatched wheels...

[Pandemoniac]

That turbo's big enough to drive itself... ;)

[t2_85_lebaron]

the talons crazy ;-) i love it