2.4L and 523/568 Front Trans Mount...

[Frank]

Who has made one? Since second time is a charm and your car maybe easier to mock a new one up, who would be willing to make me one for monetary ($$) gain?


Let me know!


Frank

[TurboGLH]

Carlos (lotsaboost) on TD used a 2.4 caravan front mount and just added a small bracket to join the case bolt hole that doesn't line up to the one in the bracket.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f48/102574-2-4l-5spd.html#post823930

[Frank]

Well either TD is down, or I have been given the ill treatment. The second I logged on, I could no longer access it... probably the denial hack for vBulletin.

[Frank]

Got on. After looking at it, I think I am going to make my own mount. Some steel rods, heim ends, and one small bracket on the block should do the trick nicely.

[BadAssPerformance]

I made one :D

[Frank]

Show me some pictures!

[BadAssPerformance]

I didn't exactly leave the motor where it is supposed to go.. ;)

[Frank]

Whats that supposed to mean?

[BadAssPerformance]

I made custom mounts on 3 sides to rotate the motor forward 2 inches so I didnt have to kustomize the firewall. Not exactly a direct swap...

[Frank]

Can I see pictures for ideas? Thanks!

[BadAssPerformance]

already working on it...

[BadAssPerformance]

viola...

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15944

http://www.badassperformance.com/mrides/z/24L/mounts/24L_mounts.html

[Frank]

Looks like I am going to go for the 2.4L van mount.

[BadAssPerformance]

forgot yours is a '93... a little different...

[turboshad]

Here is the one I built. For a 93 Shadow. It wasn't all that hard.

It's not completely done in this pic but you get the idea. I will make a piece to catch the lonely hole also.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/DSC01344.jpg

DJ

[Frank]

My other thought was to make a big plate to put between the engine and the transmission and use a spacer on the flywheel to fix. That would allow me to close up all the wholes and to make a better mount in a way.

[Aries_Turbo]

naaah thats a pain frank and too complicated. just get someone to weld a big old chunk of aluminum on the trans and drill and tap for a bolt and have the mount catch that point and/or the one above.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

I think mine will be just as strong as it needs to be with 3 bolts between the trans, motor and front mount...

[Aries_Turbo]

Franks actually putting this in his 91 daytona but the mounts are still the same.

I just dont like the idea of that last bolt on the front of the motor not being secured to the trans without at least the tab like on the td thread or a threaded hole on the trans. Ive seen a spirit with 3 of the bolts in (two top and the rear) and the front one that fell out for some strange reason. when the clutch was pressed in, the space between the bellhousing and the motor would grow to 1/8"+ and youd have a hard time shifting into gear. I fixed it with a bolt from the mopar bolt bucket.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Look at my mount. The top and bottom bolt holes accept bolts from the engine side and bolt into the trans like the 2.2L mount did. The middle bolt hole will have a stud in it from the trans side that bolts thru the front ear in the block... all kinda stiched together with the 3 bolts.

[rbryant]

To me it looks like there is room to build up the inside and ouside of the case where the bolt lines up. The housing is much wider there than it is near the timing marks so there is lots of extra room.

After it is built up on both sides it can either be drilled and threaded or drilled all the way through for a long bolt and nut (or both).

-Rich

[BadAssPerformance]

Only thing that sucks is that the trans case is blocking the front ear bolt hole so it's gotta be a stud or modify the trans case.

[rbryant]

Only thing that sucks is that the trans case is blocking the front ear bolt hole so it's gotta be a stud or modify the trans case.

Yea I was suggesting a slight case modification.

If you welded some material on each side of the housing and then made it into a flat boss on the driver side of the tranny I think a long bolt would work.

This of course requires welding and drilling but no cutting of the housing.

Essentiall the bolt hole would be half housing and half new material on the outside of the housing and reinforced on the inside.

-Rich

[Aries_Turbo]

thats what I was describing for franks case though i said it a little differently. Make a new reinforced, tapped hole on the trans for that lone block ear to bolt to and also have the new front mount have a hole for that location like JT's does.

so like JT's mount only add provisions to the trans for one more bolt. you can even add the recess for a dowel pin if the motor has one in that location just make sure its lined up.

JT, yours looks good and sturdy, I just dont trust the mount to keep the block in forced contact with the trans being that the other two holes are somewhat far apart for stamped sheet steel to pull the block towards when running a beefy pressure plate to handle the HP the 2.4L can put out. that extra bolt (thats there normally from the factory) could make a big difference.

it is prolly fine but if you have access to a welder, it cant take more than a few hrs to add the material (but clear the ring gear of the flywheel) for that extra bolt. :)

nice job on the mounts though JT. :) its definitely BadAss!

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

Thanks, the front one is kinda ugly and weighs a ton but I doubt it will break!

[turboshad]

Adding more material is a good idea. I was just going to drill and tap the lonely ear and bolt my mount through there. The only problem with welding Al on both sides is you will have a seam through your tapped hole making it weaker. The better way would be to make a tapped boss and then cut out the trans case to fit it in behind the lonely ear and weld the complete boss to the tranny. This way your tapped hole will be strong and you can get a good weld between the bose and the trans case. I think I will do that. I'll post some pics when ever I get it done.

DJ

[turboshad]

Bringing her back from the dead but I said I would post some pics so here they are.

I finished the front mount last night and did exactly what was suggested. It worked great and now the transmission will be completely secure. Here's the pics.

First I made the boss for the bolt to go through my front mount and welded that in.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02484.jpg

Then I made a boss to weld into the transmission with a recess for the locating dowl.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02486.jpg

I marked the tranny and cut a hole for the boss

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02487.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02488.jpg

And then welded it in.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02493.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02490.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02489.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC02492.jpg

And that's how she sits. Sorry for the sloppy welds on the outside. Sometimes cast can get a little dirty :mad:

Hope that helps someone in the future.

DJ

[rbryant]

Nice,

I agree that this is the best way and how everyone should do it.

Thanks for taking the time to post pictures! Now I can just give them to my welder without any miscommunications about how it should be done.

-Rich

[Aries_Turbo]

yup, this is the best way. :) nice job. :)

Brian

[dodgeshadowchik]

How did you determine where to weld the boss in the trans? So that the trans is aligned properly to the engine

[BadAssPerformance]

You can do it w/o welding a boss... same alignment concerns tho.

[dodgeshadowchik]

You can do it w/o welding a boss... same alignment concerns tho.

Welding doesn't bother me its knowing were to weld so every thing lines up properly

[BadAssPerformance]

I guess I just prefer to weld motor mounts than the trans case.

Either way the front ear on the 2.4L block will show you where the boss goes.

[Aries_Turbo]

i think the best way to make sure the trans is perfectly aligned is to take a old clutch center and, making sure its concentric, press or weld it into a plug that fits into the crank. then take the aluminum and weld it into the bellhousing.

Brian

[turboshad]

How did you determine where to weld the boss in the trans? So that the trans is aligned properly to the engine

I'll be honest and say I it didn't even dawn on me that the trans could be out of alignment enough to cause concern. Probably because of the other people that had attatched and run their transmissions without that dowel at all. With the other dowel and the top bolts there realy isn't much for jiggle room. Then I used the engine ear to place the aluminum bung. I personally wasn't comfortable with the thin engine mount material being the only tie between the engine and the trans at that point.

DJ

[MiniMopar]

Couldn't you have just added some webbing to stiffen that area up?

[1985ShlbyChrger]

JT, what turbo are you using that you were having clearance issues with the OBX header? I have an H1E that I think I may use but I guess I'm going to have to rotate my engine if you were having issues.

[BadAssPerformance]

JT, what turbo are you using that you were having clearance issues with the OBX header? I have an H1E that I think I may use but I guess I'm going to have to rotate my engine if you were having issues.

Same T3/T4 hybrid that was on the 2.2L. The 2.4L came with an OhioRob passenger side mount and the comp housing was touching the firewall so I rotated the motor forward 2".

[rbryant]

I just added the boss to my tranny. I actually didn't do the dowel because I thought it would give less room for error than simply knocking it out and using the bolt.

BTW there really isn't any concern about centering/aligning the tranny to the engine on the dowels. If it is a little off then the clutch will just run very slightly out of center of the p/flywheel which doesn't matter. It isn't like the input shaft is going to be pressed sideways or anything. If you use a clutch alignment tool you really get get it very far off anyway (Of course the srt4 crank also doesn't have a good alignment hole for the tool since it was designed for a modular clutch so that is a little tougher on this setup).

One other thing that I found interesting is that the crank seems to stick out of the block farther on the SRT4 than the 2.2/2.5. If you look in the timing window on the tranny there is only about 1/4" from the edge of the window to the starter gear when installed on the 2.4 where there is much more than that on the 2.2/2.5. This also doesn't seem to matter because there is extra depth on the input shaft anyway and lots of adjustment in the clutch.

-Rich

[rbryant]

i think the best way to make sure the trans is perfectly aligned is to take a old clutch center and, making sure its concentric, press or weld it into a plug that fits into the crank. then take the aluminum and weld it into the bellhousing.

Brian

I have convinced myself that this doesn't matter.

If the clutch disc is 1/32 off center relative to the flywheel/pp I can't see it throwing things off balance much anyway and it will still be within the contact areas.

The weight of the disc and amount of weight that would be off center is minimal compared to the rest of the rotating assembly.

-Rich

[turboshad]

I have convinced myself that this doesn't matter.

If the clutch disc is 1/32 off center relative to the flywheel/pp I can't see it throwing things off balance much anyway and it will still be within the contact areas.

The weight of the disc and amount of weight that would be off center is minimal compared to the rest of the rotating assembly.

-Rich


I'm acutally going to have to disagree with you. I think it does matter and I think I didn't get mine right on which is usually what happens when you are the first to try it and miss thinking about that one important part.

I had my car on the road for a tad over 2 months and put on about 2000 Km and my input shaft bearings are already shot (which I replaced before the tranny was assembled). When I put the tranny on with the clutch in and centered with the tool it was a bit of a struggle to get the welded dowel to line up. I didn't pay much attention at the time but I think it was because I was off just a hair with the dowel piece. Even if you are off 1/32" that is 1/16" on the diameter which is quite a bit. (Even 1/32" is quite a bit) I was watching a show on a tranny manufacturer and they spec the flywheel to a max of .005" off center.

That being said I think the misalignment is what took out the bearing so quickly. This spring when I take the car out of storage I will be pulling the tranny and making a tool that will bolt to the crank to align the crank perfectly and then I will weld on a new dowel piece. I also want to look into incorporating a pilot bearing which I'm thinking might help with clutch chatter which is also not freindly to the input shaft bearings.

The only thing I would say is that because you didn't make it a dowel piece your clutch may line the tranny up better so when you bolt it down tight it will be on center.

Just my .02 from my experience this fall.

DJ

[rbryant]

I'm acutally going to have to disagree with you. I think it does matter and I think I didn't get mine right on which is usually what happens when you are the first to try it and miss thinking about that one important part.

I had my car on the road for a tad over 2 months and put on about 2000 Km and my input shaft bearings are already shot (which I replaced before the tranny was assembled). When I put the tranny on with the clutch in and centered with the tool it was a bit of a struggle to get the welded dowel to line up. I didn't pay much attention at the time but I think it was because I was off just a hair with the dowel piece. Even if you are off 1/32" that is 1/16" on the diameter which is quite a bit. (Even 1/32" is quite a bit) I was watching a show on a tranny manufacturer and they spec the flywheel to a max of .005" off center.

That being said I think the misalignment is what took out the bearing so quickly. This spring when I take the car out of storage I will be pulling the tranny and making a tool that will bolt to the crank to align the crank perfectly and then I will weld on a new dowel piece. I also want to look into incorporating a pilot bearing which I'm thinking might help with clutch chatter which is also not freindly to the input shaft bearings.

The only thing I would say is that because you didn't make it a dowel piece your clutch may line the tranny up better so when you bolt it down tight it will be on center.

Just my .02 from my experience this fall.

DJ

It will be interesting to see what others say. I see your point I just don't see where being off center will put a lot of stress on the input shaft. When the clutch is engaged it is clamped tightly to the flywheel and won't cause much wobble. If it is disengaged the clutch is still on center relative to the input shaft and therefore balanced.

I did leave the rear dowel in place so that is acting as an alignment pin I just didn't do the front one. With that there can't be more than 1/64th of play in the bolt holes is there? How much can you really move the entire tranny if you putt all of the bolts on loosely and try to turn it?

I don't know for sure I am just posting what I convinced myself of. I can ask a clutch guy later on if we don't have an expert join the thread. :)

-Rich

[turboshad]

When the clutch is disengaged the disc will be concentric with the transmission. When you engage it, if the tranny is off center, the disc will now be clamped non-concentric with the engine. The crank will now be rotating the input shaft off center with the same displacement that the tranny was off which will be stressing the input shaft bearings. It won't take long at the speeds of the engine to pound out the roller bearings on the input shaft. Also note I will be checking my mains when I take it out to make sure they are OK. I will probalby add crank straps at the same time though that's another story. :D

DJ

[rbryant]

When the clutch is disengaged the disc will be concentric with the transmission. When you engage it, if the tranny is off center, the disc will now be clamped non-concentric with the engine. The crank will now be rotating the input shaft off center with the same displacement that the tranny was off which will be stressing the input shaft bearings. It won't take long at the speeds of the engine to pound out the roller bearings on the input shaft. Also note I will be checking my mains when I take it out to make sure they are OK. I will probalby add crank straps at the same time though that's another story. :D

DJ

Ok I agree if it is off center that much it will wobble the input shaft. Thanks for explaining I was missing that part of the equation...

I will loosen it and take a look and see just how much it can move. It is still bound by the max play in the bolt holes which shouldn't be much.

If I center the top two holes and also have the back on the dowel pin it should be just about as good as having the dowel on the front shouldn't it?

Granted if I was creating these from the factory I would put in a dowel just to skip the step of having to check that they are square. In our controlled hand assembled environment checking the alignment of the holes isn't a big problem. Of course if it isn't centered on both holes (which I hope it is) then that would make for a more difficult problem.

-Rich

[turboshad]

Yes, and like I mention I think because you are running with only one dowel, if your clutch disc is perfectly concentric with the crank then you should have a better chance that it will also line up the tranny when you insert the input shaft during assembly. It's definately worth a shot.

DJ

[crazymadbastard]

Perhaps if we can fashion some cones to put on the top 2 bolts and the rear ear so that it centers on 3 places, you can bolt the dowel/boss and bolt it all together then tig the new boss on. Do you think the 4th hole would be dead on right using this method?

It would look like this :
(bolt into cone type washer pushing into the bellhousing)

[]=>O=



.

[turbovanman²]

When the clutch is disengaged the disc will be concentric with the transmission. When you engage it, if the tranny is off center, the disc will now be clamped non-concentric with the engine. The crank will now be rotating the input shaft off center with the same displacement that the tranny was off which will be stressing the input shaft bearings. It won't take long at the speeds of the engine to pound out the roller bearings on the input shaft. Also note I will be checking my mains when I take it out to make sure they are OK. I will probalby add crank straps at the same time though that's another story. :D

DJ


Exactly, :thumb:

[rbryant]

Perhaps if we can fashion some cones to put on the top 2 bolts and the rear ear so that it centers on 3 places, you can bolt the dowel/boss and bolt it all together then tig the new boss on. Do you think the 4th hole would be dead on right using this method?

It would look like this :
(bolt into cone type washer pushing into the bellhousing)

[]=>O=



.

I will take a look but simply creating a couple of bushings that force the top two bolts to have no gap between the tranny case and the bolt should also do the trick.

That way there the transmission has several points where it is held axially by something more than the clamping force of a bolt that is smaller than its respective hole.

In thinking about it the dowels also give something more than the bolt head against the case in a loose hole to hold the transmission from shucking back and forth around the bolts. If the bellhousing holes were tight against the bolts that would serve the same purpose shouldn't it? Of course some loctite is probably also in order on those bolts.

-Rich

[crazymadbastard]

Hey Rich,

My idea is to use the cones temporally to set the second boss up, once it is welded in place you would use normal bolts just like stock. Another thing one can do is get larger bolts and machine them with the cones by the bolt heads and then machine and cut the rest down to stock size, or do the same as you suggested and have then take up more all the slack by the bellhousing and leave them on permanently.

[turboshad]

Something like the cones may work assuming those other bolt holes are inline. I'm sure they are but since I don't know I wouldn't bet my life on it. The best solution I have come up with which I will try is machining a piece that will bolt to the crank and extend out with a rod that is size on (most likely -0.003" to -0.005")with the inner bore of the tapered bearing cup retainer that the release bearing rides on. This bore is already located quite well in the bearing hole and is long enough to get a solid location. That should ensure a perfect center with the crank.

DJ

[crazymadbastard]

Something like the cones may work assuming those other bolt holes are inline. I'm sure they are but since I don't know I wouldn't bet my life on it. The best solution I have come up with which I will try is machining a piece that will bolt to the crank and extend out with a rod that is size on (most likely -0.003" to -0.005")with the inner bore of the tapered bearing cup retainer that the release bearing rides on. This bore is already located quite well in the bearing hole and is long enough to get a solid location. That should ensure a perfect center with the crank.

DJ

I think if you are are gonna do something like that make it center in the crank hole and make a pilot bushing to engage and center the input shaft to align everything.

[rbryant]

I double checked mine last night and all of the holes are centered inside of the bellhousing except the one I added is slightly off enough to where it rubs the side of the hole. All of the others are centered and aren't even touching as they thread in (with my fingers).

I am happy with how it is so we will just have to wait and see. I think that having the new mount which is welded in as your critical alignment point when it is actually the least accurate of all of the bosses is probably not a good idea.

If that worried about it the simple solution would be to drill the top front hole in the block and bellhousing out a little and move the dowel there. That way you still have two dowels and two accurate alignment points. If you simply enlarge an existing hole 1/4" inward to fit the dowel it should stay very centered.

They aren't 180 opposed that way but they are still something like 120 so it should be a fine solution. I guess the only negative is that the bellhousing isn't as thick on the top but it should be fine.

What do you think?
-Rich

[turboshad]

It's been a while but here is the update. After 2000km (1250 miles) my transmission started making an awful neutral rattle. I thought it was most likely the input shaft bearings which I suspected got taken out by me not having the transmission perfectly aligned. I pulled the engine last weekend to find some completely tight and perfect input shaft bearings. What was making the noise was my clutch disc center hub. It had worn out it's bore and is now loose in the center causing it not to be centered in neutral when the clutch is out. Still suspecting a misalignment I made a aligning tool which I would still recomend to make sure things are perfect.

I installed the tool and bolted up the bell housing to find that my welded bung was spot on. What wasn't spot on was that I had ground away the weld on the bung to make the mating surface flat agian. Really I should have machined it because I ground too much creating a gap which caused the added bolt to pull in that corner and distort the housing. With my alignment tool, which is .001" undersized for the bore of the TOB housing, I can rotate the engine with all the trans bolts tight except for the one at the welded bung. If I tighten that one it binds. If I put a .022" shim in and tighten it agian things are fine. So lesson learned and I just want to pass on the lesson to others.

Here is the tool I made. It locates on the crank like the flywheel does and then slides into the TOB bore where the input shaft normally is. The shaft itself is .001" undersized to give an accurate fit. After I welded it I put the shaft in the lathe and faced the part that mates to the crank to make sure everything was perpendicular.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC01865.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC01874.jpg

This is how much it takes to distort the bell housing.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g103/turboshad/93%20Shadow/Transmission/DSC01875.jpg

[crazymadbastard]

thanks for the info turboshad.
You are not running a dust shield?
also, had you first bolted up the new bung and then welded, do you think
it would have been better off?

[turboshad]

thanks for the info turboshad.
You are not running a dust shield?
also, had you first bolted up the new bung and then welded, do you think
it would have been better off?


I am using a dust shield. I just didn't have it on when I was evaluting the situation. After all, if your base doesn't match then you can be sure anything you stack on top of it won't either.

When I welded the bung on I did bolt it up then weld it but to get a complete weld I needed to unbolt the trans to come across the face. The problem came when I had the grind the bead on the face to make it flush. I should have set it up in the mill and faced it. I will build the area back up, face it and then bolt it back up and see how it behaves. I'm pretty sure it will be good then.

[turboshad]

So I welded up the low spot and then surfaced the bellhousing. Bolted it back up with the alignment tool and everything is perfect :clap:

I got the new clutch in so the engine goes back in on the weekend and I should have her back on the road in about a week. :D

[t3rse]

I didn't do a damn thing to center the trans...drove the car for a few weeks (needed some clutch work so apart now) and the input shaft is as tight as can be.

[turboshad]

I didn't do a damn thing to center the trans...drove the car for a few weeks (needed some clutch work so apart now) and the input shaft is as tight as can be.


Mine was fine too. I did weld in the extra bung but when doing so I just bolted it up and welded it in place. I just "suspected" something was off due to the quick apperance of neutral rattle but the tool I built confirmed that the trans was perfectly aligned and the rattle was coming from a bad disc, not the input shaft bearings. The only problem I found was the little gap I made when I ground down the bung welds a bit was distorting the bellhousing enough for the tool to bind so that is now fixed and things are perfect.

DJ