PDA

View Full Version : +40 injector HP limit



Directconnection
07-01-2007, 03:09 PM
The old consensus used to be that the +40s couldn't support much more than 300whp. Rick Diogo made over 400whp on his T-III back then on +40s in which some denied his claims, but the BFSC of the T-III was better, so some figured to be possible.

I have seen the +40s support 344whp where the ignition was more of a culprit in their limitation.


So, with all the new technolgy out ther ein the form of many people doing their wn cals these days and with chem and d-cal... what have people gotten out of their +40s for max. HP?

I am thinking I should have stepped up to the 72pph a while back for this project I am into and don't want to be cut shortat 330whp.

rbryant
07-01-2007, 09:52 PM
From what I have read, 4 valve engines have a lower BSFC than 2 valve engines so you can get more power out of smaller injectors if you have a more efficient engine...

Our +40s are rated @ 55psi so they actually more like 46.25pph @ 43.5 psi if using most calculators...

Mitsu eclipse blue top injectors are 450cc @ so they are a cheap way to get to ~48pph @ 55psi injectors.

Here are some equations use:

http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
http://rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm

After that you need to have a good idea of what your real BSFC is which will require some dyno time... Keep in mind that you shouldn't pass 85% duty cycle regularly on injectors. :)

-Rich

8valves
07-02-2007, 07:45 AM
I ran clean on +40's at 370 whp/395 wtq for quite some time. I'm pretty sure it was getting kinda ragged up there though, and since when it got cold I popped a headgasket I think that was a good indicator of the limit.

bn880
07-02-2007, 09:52 AM
If you raise fuel pressure and then calibrate for it you can easily go upto 450+ at the wheels, it just starts to get scary over 100psi. (hose wise)

65-75psi base or RRR

Speedeuphoria
07-02-2007, 10:41 AM
and the fuel pump starts falling on its face at those pressures

cordes
07-02-2007, 11:00 AM
and the fuel pump starts falling on its face at those pressures

+1.

The +40s are great and can be pushed very far.

The thing that turns me off to them when a very high HP setup is concerned is that the pump will struggle to keep up with them. 55PSI +25PSI will give you 80PSI which is at the limit of the walbro 255 that most of us run from what I have read. I know that there are a lot of guys running 28+PSI of boost, which to me can be a bit scary.

Also, if you look at the duty cycle of the injectors it gets up there pretty quickly. I believe that with a redline of even 6300 you will be over 80% duty cycle at only 20-22PSI, but it has been a while since I have looked at it.

I really think each person needs to look at the DC and the overall FP they will be running at their target boost level to determine if they are comfortable with the safety factor they provide.

Directconnection
07-02-2007, 12:39 PM
I want to stay just shy of the 3-bar on my T3/T4. But maybe I may need to do the 5th injector trick once I get around 25psi.

Engine is far from finished so I am just getting a collaborative mutual agreement on the limitations of the +40s.

cordes
07-02-2007, 12:49 PM
I want to stay just shy of the 3-bar on my T3/T4. But maybe I may need to do the 5th injector trick once I get around 25psi.

Engine is far from finished so I am just getting a collaborative mutual agreement on the limitations of the +40s.

add some alky.

8valves
07-02-2007, 01:48 PM
+1.

The +40s are great and can be pushed very far.

The thing that turns me off to them when a very high HP setup is concerned is that the pump will struggle to keep up with them. 55PSI +25PSI will give you 80PSI which is at the limit of the walbro 255 that most of us run from what I have read. I know that there are a lot of guys running 28+PSI of boost, which to me can be a bit scary.

Also, if you look at the duty cycle of the injectors it gets up there pretty quickly. I believe that with a redline of even 6300 you will be over 80% duty cycle at only 20-22PSI, but it has been a while since I have looked at it.

I really think each person needs to look at the DC and the overall FP they will be running at their target boost level to determine if they are comfortable with the safety factor they provide.


Absoultey correct. Raising the pressure excessively is generally not a good idea.

Directconnection
07-02-2007, 05:48 PM
add some alky.

I'd rather not. One less link in the chain, the better. Besides, isn't the purpose of alcohol injection to fight off detonation by increasing the octane so to speak and not the other way around... to add fuel to run more boost?



BTW... the how many WOT runs can you make with the alcohol injection?

cordes
07-02-2007, 06:09 PM
I'd rather not. One less link in the chain, the better. Besides, isn't the purpose of alcohol injection to fight off detonation by increasing the octane so to speak and not the other way around... to add fuel to run more boost?



BTW... the how many WOT runs can you make with the alcohol injection?

It depends on the nozzle size, alky tank size, and how long your WOT runs are. IIRC Carl was filling his tank every fourth pass, but he was also pulling fuel to accommodate the added alky.

Honestly, if I were not intending on running alky with the same goals as yourself, I would get some larger injectors.

Directconnection
07-02-2007, 06:13 PM
I can't get a damn SBEC 2.5 G head cal for +40s.... I doubt I can get one for 72pph.

My old ride at 15-16psi... I was kinda into the boost alot. I guess I'd run empty real quick at 25-28psi.

cordes
07-02-2007, 06:16 PM
I am sure that there is someone who could put together a cal like that for you. The injector change really should not make that much of a difference.

GLHNSLHT2
07-02-2007, 09:24 PM
Rick D was running a Masi, not a T3.

TurboJerry
07-02-2007, 09:44 PM
I can't get a damn SBEC 2.5 G head cal for +40s.... I doubt I can get one for 72pph.

My old ride at 15-16psi... I was kinda into the boost alot. I guess I'd run empty real quick at 25-28psi.

At 55 psi and 100% DC, 340 hp is on the edge. There is no room for error. This is Assuming a .62 BSFC. 72 or 83 pph injectors are much better considering there is only 4 injectors. I found the Walbro to loose alot of steam at about 90 psi fuel pressure.

contraption22
07-02-2007, 10:00 PM
Why not run 72lb injectors on your 52lb cal at lowered fuel pressure? Its easier on the pump to not have to run sky high fuel pressure, and you have extra head room.

TurboJerry
07-02-2007, 10:04 PM
Why not run 72lb injectors on your 52lb cal at lowered fuel pressure? Its easier on the pump to not have to run sky high fuel pressure, and you have extra head room.

Yup, that would work, but he may need 25 psi static fuel pressure to run clean and smooth while "cruising"!!!!!!

cordes
07-03-2007, 08:47 AM
Yup, that would work, but he may need 25 psi static fuel pressure to run clean and smooth while "cruising"!!!!!!

Yeah, you would have to drop that fuel pressure pretty low. It is an option, but I would rather scale the fueling tables.

Directconnection
07-03-2007, 12:09 PM
Rick D was running a Masi, not a T3.

Bzzzt! It was on his IROC R/T. Rick owns masi and T-III components galore.

rbryant
07-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Has anyone tried 84 RX7 injectors? They are supposed to be 680cc and low impedence...

That would support 400HP at only 43.5 psi.

I have seen remaned injectors for around $30 plus a $12 core on them from one of the discount car parts sites.

-Rich

bn880
07-03-2007, 02:03 PM
and the fuel pump starts falling on its face at those pressures

Yes but you can run a different pump inline. I always run an inline and a stock tank pump, used to run over 100psi at boost and actually never had any issue. Years and years.

bn880
07-03-2007, 02:06 PM
I think you are generally right about the duty cycle and the pump. It's pretty easy to verify by just loading up the new moparchem soft with a cal.

But so yes, I make it to the 29psi region with a higher pressure +40 and a second pump. (and a hand tweaked cal)


+1.

The +40s are great and can be pushed very far.

The thing that turns me off to them when a very high HP setup is concerned is that the pump will struggle to keep up with them. 55PSI +25PSI will give you 80PSI which is at the limit of the walbro 255 that most of us run from what I have read. I know that there are a lot of guys running 28+PSI of boost, which to me can be a bit scary.

Also, if you look at the duty cycle of the injectors it gets up there pretty quickly. I believe that with a redline of even 6300 you will be over 80% duty cycle at only 20-22PSI, but it has been a while since I have looked at it.

I really think each person needs to look at the DC and the overall FP they will be running at their target boost level to determine if they are comfortable with the safety factor they provide.

TurboGLH
07-03-2007, 03:42 PM
Has anyone tried 84 RX7 injectors? They are supposed to be 680cc and low impedence...

That would support 400HP at only 43.5 psi.

I have seen remaned injectors for around $30 plus a $12 core on them from one of the discount car parts sites.

-Rich

Here's a list of some applications and they're rated flow. Now, it doesn't show at what FP these are rated, so some more searching will have to be done. I plan to do this and add it to the KC in the near future.

turbovanmanČ
07-03-2007, 06:47 PM
I want to stay just shy of the 3-bar on my T3/T4. But maybe I may need to do the 5th injector trick once I get around 25psi.

Engine is far from finished so I am just getting a collaborative mutual agreement on the limitations of the +40s.

Why don't you want a 3 bar cal?

cordes
07-03-2007, 07:25 PM
Why don't you want a 3 bar cal?

I think he was saying that he wanted to run boost just shy of what the 3 bar sensor could read.

2.216VTurbo
07-03-2007, 07:36 PM
I'm gonna take the GLHS to an SRT dyno day on the 15th. If I don't see 400 WHP at 18 or 20 PSI I am gonna be bummed:( I am running 40's so that's how this fits into your thread Steve. Although running two sets of them kind of negates any value to this discussion:o

GLHNSLHT2
07-03-2007, 08:15 PM
Bzzzt! It was on his IROC R/T. Rick owns masi and T-III components galore.

He made 440hp on his masi with +40's. The dyno plot he sent me for his spirit r/t wasn't close to 400hp.

2.216VTurbo
07-03-2007, 08:41 PM
He made 440hp on his masi with +40's. The dyno plot he sent me for his spirit r/t wasn't close to 400hp.

Yeah, IIRC his RT maxed out at 320WHP. Then he found a buyer for it:eyebrows:

Directconnection
07-03-2007, 09:33 PM
He made 440hp on his masi with +40's. The dyno plot he sent me for his spirit r/t wasn't close to 400hp.

I remember way back in the RT or was it sdml days that his R/T Daytona laid down right around 420whp. I could be wrong, but I remember the arguement that started from it.

Directconnection
07-03-2007, 09:34 PM
Yeah, IIRC his RT maxed out at 320WHP. Then he found a buyer for it:eyebrows:

Am I losing it then? I am going to dig back...and this was around 5+ years ago.

TurboGLH
07-03-2007, 10:46 PM
Here's a list of some applications and they're rated flow. Now, it doesn't show at what FP these are rated, so some more searching will have to be done. I plan to do this and add it to the KC in the near future.

Whoops, forgot the link.

http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm

I also found out the 84-85 13B motor was fuel injected while the 12A was not. The 13B used a FP of 40psi (39.97) so provided this info is correct, at 55psi that makes the orange top 84-85 RX7 Injectors 75lbs/hr and they flow 67lb/hr at the standard 43.5psi.

boost geek
07-03-2007, 11:57 PM
I'm gonna go to Pick a Part on saturday and find myself some rx7 injectors.:D

gasketmaster
07-04-2007, 03:39 PM
I have +40's in my minivan :)

112.15 mph @ 3150-3200 Lbs. (still need to weigh it after removing some weight)

Should be somewhere in the 375-400 hp at the flywheel neighborhood ;)

cordes
07-04-2007, 03:46 PM
I have +40's in my minivan :)

112.15 mph @ 3150-3200 Lbs. (still need to weigh it after removing some weight)

Should be somewhere in the 375-400 hp at the flywheel neighborhood ;)

No alcohol?

rbryant
07-04-2007, 04:24 PM
Check this out:

http://www.fuelinjectorsoutlet.com/product_info.php?products_id=1103

41.95 each for the injectors with a core charge of $10 so unless your time is worth less than $5 minus the yard price it isn't worth it.

Pat
07-04-2007, 05:17 PM
Am I losing it then? I am going to dig back...and this was around 5+ years ago.


Yup, you've lost it! I remember that argument well and it was about his masi powered GLHS. His Iroc was a 320-330 whp car.

TurboGLH
07-04-2007, 05:25 PM
Check this out:

http://www.fuelinjectorsoutlet.com/product_info.php?products_id=1103

41.95 each for the injectors with a core charge of $10 so unless your time is worth less than $5 minus the yard price it isn't worth it.

Here is a flow vs. horsepower chart that I made.

4803

Calculations are from:

http://rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm

Need to verify that it's the correct injector for an RX-7 FI, could be for use in another mazda platform. The OEM number gives nothing on a google search.

I've copied the list I linked to above and I've been tracking down the FP that each vehicle is rated at and including that data, plus flow rate at 43.5psi in a modded spread sheet. I've also added the srt-4 injectors, 03 stock, 04 stock and stage 2 as well.

crazy1eye
07-04-2007, 06:18 PM
I use 57pph(@ 43.5psi) Siemens injectors that I bought here... http://www.racetronix.com/3102FM.html

That's on an RP LM 3bar cal, 2.2 G-head.

No issues on the dyno running 27psi making 348whp & I'm able to run a lower base fuel psi :thumb:

rbryant
07-04-2007, 11:23 PM
Need to verify that it's the correct injector for an RX-7 FI, could be for use in another mazda platform. The OEM number gives nothing on a google search.

I've copied the list I linked to above and I've been tracking down the FP that each vehicle is rated at and including that data, plus flow rate at 43.5psi in a modded spread sheet. I've also added the srt-4 injectors, 03 stock, 04 stock and stage 2 as well.

The description doesn't when you go directly to it but I went through a series of menus that chose a 13b 84 RX7 so either they are wrong or it is the 680cc injector. :)

I got my info from the same list you did. ;)

BTW: The '04+ PT/SRT4 (stage I) injector is listed as 577cc @ 58psi which is 500cc @ 43.5psi.

-Rich

TurboGLH
07-05-2007, 12:32 PM
The description doesn't when you go directly to it but I went through a series of menus that chose a 13b 84 RX7 so either they are wrong or it is the 680cc injector. :)

I got my info from the same list you did. ;)

BTW: The '04+ PT/SRT4 (stage I) injector is listed as 577cc @ 58psi which is 500cc @ 43.5psi.

-Rich

Yeah, I went back and checked that AFTER my post. Whoops. I tried searching for the Mazda PN with no luck, so I looked up a 89' 2.5 turbo and the P/N's they listed were all correct so we'll have to assume that they have it right for the mazda.

Here's my list so far, it's not very far done but it's a start.

http://members.cox.net/turboglh/injectors.htm

I also had the FP for the 680's wrong, so they're actually closer to 750cc than 700. A pretty cheap set of 70lb/hr injectors.

rbryant
07-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Yeah, I went back and checked that AFTER my post. Whoops. I tried searching for the Mazda PN with no luck, so I looked up a 89' 2.5 turbo and the P/N's they listed were all correct so we'll have to assume that they have it right for the mazda.

Here's my list so far, it's not very far done but it's a start.

http://members.cox.net/turboglh/injectors.htm

I also had the FP for the 680's wrong, so they're actually closer to 750cc than 700. A pretty cheap set of 70lb/hr injectors.

Interesting I didn't catch that the Mazda stock pressure was only 36-37psi... I will remove my table in favor of yours...

-Rich

TurboGLH
07-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Interesting I didn't catch that the Mazda stock pressure was only 36-37psi... I will remove my table in favor of yours...

-Rich

I wasn't planning on adding max HP to mine since you already had it included. But I think the info is relevant so I'll add another column to the list and use the link you supplied to include max HP.

If anyone wants to contribute to this list, either with injectors from different applications or with the correct FP for injectors already listed please do. I don't plan to include any regular TD injectors, they have a current list in the Knowledge Center and the info really doesn't need to be duplicated.

mario03SRT
07-10-2007, 07:35 AM
TurboGLH,

All of these will drop into a 2.2 Dodge? If not all, which ones?

What about lo/hi impedence?

I have +40's and I am sure that they will not get me to 350 hp. I'm from the lower FP bigger injector camp. It's to me better to use the lower FP to extend the life of the components and be safer. I try to use RC Eng's calc to size my injectors to a good fuel pressure. But thats me..........I used Deatsch Werks 650cc injectors (43 psi) and a 42 fuel pressure with a 1 to 1 to tune the graph below and it was only 375 hp. That setup is a bit overkill but I was shooting for a lot of MAP correction to up the timing levels on the SRT ecu.

My .02...

Marion

TurboGLH
07-10-2007, 11:15 AM
TurboGLH,

All of these will drop into a 2.2 Dodge? If not all, which ones?

What about lo/hi impedence?

I have +40's and I am sure that they will not get me to 350 hp. I'm from the lower FP bigger injector camp. It's to me better to use the lower FP to extend the life of the components and be safer. I try to use RC Eng's calc to size my injectors to a good fuel pressure. But thats me..........I used Deatsch Werks 650cc injectors (43 psi) and a 42 fuel pressure with a 1 to 1 to tune the graph below and it was only 375 hp. That setup is a bit overkill but I was shooting for a lot of MAP correction to up the timing levels on the SRT ecu.

My .02...

Marion

Marion,

The list is one I acquired from another page that was linked earlier in the thread. I'm trying now to verify rate FP for each one, and also to get at least a picture of the actual injector to try and verify visually that they fit, but on that note none so far none have been verified to physically fit into a TD.

The RX-7 ones I've been concentrating on are all top feed injectors and I've found loads of pictures and the [I]appear[I] to be compatible.

On the electrical side, lo-imp peak and hold is what the system is designed for. The +40's (52lb/hr@55psi) are only 485cc @ 43.5, so even the 550cc RX-7 would be a decent increase and would allow you some more head room.

RoadWarrior222
07-10-2007, 03:00 PM
I'd say if you've got your cam timing set such that you get your peak V.E. early, it might seem like you can run +40s. But then towards the top it will be making more noise than power. Benefit of that might be though that you get higher up the torque curve before boost kicks in.

Dave
07-10-2007, 04:17 PM
I'd rather not. One less link in the chain, the better. Besides, isn't the purpose of alcohol injection to fight off detonation by increasing the octane so to speak and not the other way around... to add fuel to run more boost?



BTW... the how many WOT runs can you make with the alcohol injection?

THe real purpose of alky injection is just to allow you to make more HP on pump gas. Methanol has the equivalancy of 120 octane. It will help to reduce detonation and knock. You can only run so much fuel to so much boost on a given level of octane.

I beat on my van every time out, I've had a full tank of methanol at SDAC, drove it home and have done lots of tuning and daily driving since then and I'm still at 5/8 of a 4qt bottle. It lasts a while depending on your jet size. I'm using a 7GPH jet but it's not uncommon to see people running two 14GPH (28GPH) jets.

Back on topic, I haven't pushed the 40's to their limit yet. I probally never will. I know they can still work well for low pressure needs.

rbryant
07-13-2007, 02:34 AM
Marion,

The list is one I acquired from another page that was linked earlier in the thread. I'm trying now to verify rate FP for each one, and also to get at least a picture of the actual injector to try and verify visually that they fit, but on that note none so far none have been verified to physically fit into a TD.

The RX-7 ones I've been concentrating on are all top feed injectors and I've found loads of pictures and the [I]appear[I] to be compatible.

On the electrical side, lo-imp peak and hold is what the system is designed for. The +40's (52lb/hr@55psi) are only 485cc @ 43.5, so even the 550cc RX-7 would be a decent increase and would allow you some more head room.

DSM injectors will fit and the RX7s are supposed to be compatible with them.

SRT4/PT injectors won't fit as they are much shorter and also smaller.

-Rich

mario03SRT
07-13-2007, 06:49 AM
DSM injectors will fit and the RX7s are supposed to be compatible with them.

SRT4/PT injectors won't fit as they are much shorter and also smaller.

-Rich

Rich,

Thanks thats good information to have. I appreciate it! This kinda info needs to be a sticky.

I'm assuming that DSM fuel systems run at 43 psi, and therefore thier injectors are rated the same? These uber fuel pressures on Mopars gets tricky when mating up engine components and going away from the ecu controlled boosts.

I see a megasquirt in the future this fall/winter.:eyebrows:

FYI,
Marion

TurboGLH
07-13-2007, 02:30 PM
DSM injectors will fit and the RX7s are supposed to be compatible with them.

SRT4/PT injectors won't fit as they are much shorter and also smaller.

-Rich

Thanks for the extra info Rich. I suppose I should add another column that indicates whether they fit a TD or not.

I've also updated it with FP and flow rates for 1st and 2nd gen turbo DSM's.

http://members.cox.net/turboglh/injectors.htm

You may need to refresh the page for the updates to show, F5 will do the job in IE and FF.

Reeves
07-18-2007, 11:30 PM
I run +40's and alky. Gotta love it!

turbovanmanČ
07-19-2007, 12:09 AM
I run +40's and alky. Gotta love it!

Thats interesting considering the power your making.

I'll run over to the rotary boys tomorrow and grab some injectors, measure them and compare compatability. Will a 2nd Gen RX7 turbo II work?

TurboGLH
07-19-2007, 12:37 AM
Thats interesting considering the power your making.

I'll run over to the rotary boys tomorrow and grab some injectors, measure them and compare compatability. Will a 2nd Gen RX7 turbo II work?

Some will, the change from peak-hold to saturation was made mid year 87'. So the 86-87.5 will work in a TD.

Scroll about 1/2 of the way down to see the flow ratings for the RX7 injectors, you can also see what the flow rates are for our currently available injectors.

http://members.cox.net/turboglh/injectors.htm

turbovanmanČ
07-19-2007, 01:26 AM
I'll have to get some 84/85 injectors from them, will work nicely with the MicroTech next year.

t3rse
07-19-2007, 10:24 AM
dsm stock fp is 35.

8valves
07-19-2007, 11:12 AM
I run +40's and alky. Gotta love it!

Yeah... but you'd never live without the alky! You've far surpaseed where +40's are safe... that's the only scary part I see to relying on the alky/meth... if it runs out, dies, plugs, anything and you're relying on it for fueling you could have a big problem on your hands very quickly.

TurboGLH
07-19-2007, 12:00 PM
dsm stock fp is 35.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=151218981&postcount=2

I actually had 36.5 and 42.7 originally, I got it from a post on here. But those are the correct FP #'s and I've adjusted the page to reflect them. It may need a refresh to show up correctly.

Directconnection
07-19-2007, 12:32 PM
that's the only scary part I see to relying on the alky/meth... if it runs out, dies, plugs, anything and you're relying on it for fueling you could have a big problem on your hands very quickly.

That's my feeling as well. For a race vehicle, I wouldn't be too worried, but on the street where you're always hitting the boost.... I'd be afraid I was running out.

rbryant
07-19-2007, 12:49 PM
Interesting that after the fuel pressure corrections it makes the DSM blue top injectors almost exactly the same as our +40s!

I now have to decide if I want to use the TD/DSM style injectors or the SRT4 style injectors on my custom 2.4l intake manifold...

-Rich

8valves
07-19-2007, 02:21 PM
That's my feeling as well. For a race vehicle, I wouldn't be too worried, but on the street where you're always hitting the boost.... I'd be afraid I was running out.

Beyond even running out... what happens if your pump quits? Or a wire breaks? Corrosion gets into the pump, or wires, or connectors, or anything that could effec the flow rate... or worse yet cease flow. Everything could get very ugly, very quickly.

IIRC, Umbass' fast van grenaded because of a very similar failure...

Reeves
07-19-2007, 09:25 PM
Yeah... but you'd never live without the alky!

And your point is?????


You've far surpaseed where +40's are safe... that's the only scary part I see to relying on the alky/meth... if it runs out, dies, plugs, anything and you're relying on it for fueling you could have a big problem on your hands very quickly.

And the difference with gas is????


That's my feeling as well. For a race vehicle, I wouldn't be too worried, but on the street where you're always hitting the boost.... I'd be afraid I was running out.

That's why you run a low alcohol light! Just like the little fuel pump light that comes on in your dash to tell you that your butt had better be getting to a fuel station!


Beyond even running out... what happens if your pump quits? Or a wire breaks? Corrosion gets into the pump, or wires, or connectors, or anything that could effec the flow rate... or worse yet cease flow. Everything could get very ugly, very quickly.

IIRC, Umbass' fast van grenaded because of a very similar failure...


What happens if your fuel pump gets weak? A fuel injector wire breaks? Rust gets in the fuel lines? Corrosions gets in the fuel pump wires or fuel injector wires or anything that could effec the flow rate of fuel.... or worse, cease flow to one of the fuel injectors? A piston can get very ugly, very quickly!

My .02

turbovanmanČ
07-19-2007, 10:04 PM
Beyond even running out... what happens if your pump quits? Or a wire breaks? Corrosion gets into the pump, or wires, or connectors, or anything that could effec the flow rate... or worse yet cease flow. Everything could get very ugly, very quickly.

IIRC, Umbass' fast van grenaded because of a very similar failure...

Thats a fact of life with ANY forced air engine.

8valves
07-20-2007, 07:55 AM
1) And your point is?????

2) And the difference with gas is????

3) That's why you run a low alcohol light! Just like the little fuel pump light that comes on in your dash to tell you that your butt had better be getting to a fuel station!

4) What happens if your fuel pump gets weak?
5) A fuel injector wire breaks?
6)Rust gets in the fuel lines?
7) Corrosions gets in the fuel pump wires or fuel injector wires or anything that could effec the flow rate of fuel.... or worse, cease flow to one of the fuel injectors? A piston can get very ugly, very quickly!

My .02

1) Humor :D

2)If your pump just up and fails the car will cease to run for any appreciable amount at WOT because you're pulling so much fuel that it will literally run out of gas. I've learned this first hand. With alcohol as the barrier between engine life and death, the fuel supply is enough to keep the engine running... just very very lean.

3)Absolutely, it's no big deal to keep checking the bottle routinely to see if it's full!

4)You stare at your fuel pressure gauge that SHOULD be in your highly modified vehicle and you'll see that drop in pressure compared to normal and know to be out of it.

5)The cylinder will be dead. There will be no fuel, so no combustion will take place and the car will sound like a Subaru. Also found out from first hand experience.

6)Hopefully your highly modified vehicle has had the tank thoroughly cleaned out and the lines replaced with brand new shiny ones, with a great fuel filter. Should you not clean the tank and the filter starts to plug, take note of #4.

7)Fuel pump wires will cause a drop in pressure, so once again #4 to the rescue, injector wires could definitely pose a problem... no way around that one but to keep them well sealed and cross your fingers!

Everyone has their own method, and mine is no more right or wrong than the next persons, or yours. I just know that my fuel systemcomponents are industry leading pieces with known reliability and years of dovelopment and testing. Hopefully I can rely on that and my own wits to keep my junk from blowing up.

The meth system on the other hand- I'm sure there have been very few catastrophic failures of sorts due to it... but in my mind it just seems far easier to have a failure.

Just like a wet nitrous system... I see them as MORE dangerous than a dry since you're relying on a supplemental fuel system to keep things happy. If you're on a dry shot and use a trigger to activate more fueling via the PCM then there is far less to possibly go wrong.

My .02 :)

mario03SRT
07-20-2007, 10:10 AM
All,

Interesting posts for sure and are the classic arguments for sure about the use of a W/Meth inj system and the gas fuel system.

If i may.........

- For a regularly driven street/strip car it is highly recommended to setup the system so the car will survive should there be a failure of any sort to supply the W/Meth. In this I mean the tune on gas alone needs to be in the mid/low 12 afr range before the W/Meth is injected. The W/Meth when the correct nozzle is selected should reduce the AFR by a 1/2 point to the high 11's. This is very effective and is safe as long as the ecu and the knock sensor are in place and working right. Should the system fail to deliver the alky for any reason the motor is safe and the timing will be retarded to compensate. I have had this happen to me when a line came out partially of a snap lock due to my routing the line to sharply and it created tension.

- Now James car is a race car and his W/Meth approach and system setup is unique to his liking and the results speak for themselves. I'd like to call it a hybrid setup between a strictly alky car and a pump gas tune. And a lot of people could not pull this off either. First of all James is a craftsman and is very particular and skilled in anything he does electro/mechanically. So the install is done very well and can be eliminated from the equation.

Secondly, the particular equipment that James is using is a Boost Cooler setup used by the Diesel Drag/Pull community and is designed/built/tested with high quality controllers, pumps, and propriety nozzle designs. Other than the super high dollar product made by Aquamist, this is as good as it get's. So IMO he is covered here also. See www.snowperformance.net for the many tuner articles from over the world in Porsches, SC Stangs, Diesels, Turbo 4's, you name it.

Can a motor fail from loosing a major source of fuel.......well yes of course. Can things be done to reduce the likelihood.......well yes of course again. Did James pickup mega ET and MPH..........well yes of course again again.:thumb:

FYI,
Marion

turbovanmanČ
07-20-2007, 12:37 PM
But, as I have learned, when your at WOT, you should be looking at your EGT and AF guages, they will give you a clue when things go bad or if you can't, hook up some super bright LED's to go off at preset conditions. Thats why I like my Dawes AF guage, you see the red LED and back out now, its saved my azz numerous times.

Directconnection
07-20-2007, 12:40 PM
What happens if your fuel pump gets weak? A fuel injector wire breaks? Rust gets in the fuel lines? Corrosions gets in the fuel pump wires or fuel injector wires or anything that could effec the flow rate of fuel.... or worse, cease flow to one of the fuel injectors? A piston can get very ugly, very quickly!

My .02

James... I think the point 8valves is making is that having less links in the chain, the better.

But, I may find myself to the point of running injection as well, or race gas which will be costly and an inconvenience.

What ever happened to the Torco fuel additive that wallace used along with a few others? Supposedly worked pretty good.

turbovanmanČ
07-20-2007, 01:01 PM
James... I think the point 8valves is making is that having less links in the chain, the better.

But, I may find myself to the point of running injection as well, or race gas which will be costly and an inconvenience.

What ever happened to the Torco fuel additive that wallace used along with a few others? Supposedly worked pretty good.


It works but its expensive, thats why alky injection is a nice feature, $1.50 windshield washer fluid and it works.

8valves
07-20-2007, 01:39 PM
I'm not against alky at all! I'm just more against using it as the primary fuel source under WOT, and without it you're just SOL.

If you want to do that, awesome! Just use an entirely separate methanol fuel pump, lines, regulator, and injectors to come on at a certian throttle percentage. :)

TurboJerry
07-22-2007, 10:18 PM
I prefer to run gasoline since it's available at the pump.

Reeves
07-23-2007, 07:02 PM
I prefer to run gasoline since it's available at the pump.

Gasoline's a good thing!

Alcohol ONLY comes on at 22psi in my setup. Sooo...99% of the street miles on the car don't use any alky!

WickedShelby88
07-24-2007, 02:19 AM
Hmm there is an 86 RX7 in the local yard that still has injectors.... I knew they ran higher pressure though. Something like 60 psi stock at WOT. I know my 87 would rev to the moon and pulled pretty hard for only making 150 hp stock.. I think they demanded more fuel inherently because the wankel is designed to burn oil unlike our engines so they have to have more fuel so they don't run lean so much.

TurboJerry
07-24-2007, 03:07 AM
Gasoline's a good thing!

Alcohol ONLY comes on at 22psi in my setup. Sooo...99% of the street miles on the car don't use any alky!

I mean even at 30 psi boost! Of course some unleaded race gas in there also......

gasketmaster
07-24-2007, 05:24 AM
No alcohol?

Nope :)

8valves
07-24-2007, 07:54 AM
Nope :)

It makes sense to me. I put down 370 WHP/395 WTQ on 93 octane two years ago with just +40's. I'm nearly positive that was the very limit of them though as on a cold night, even with a splash of 110 in the tank the headgasket let go.

TurboJerry
07-24-2007, 10:23 PM
It makes sense to me. I put down 370 WHP/395 WTQ on 93 octane two years ago with just +40's. I'm nearly positive that was the very limit of them though as on a cold night, even with a splash of 110 in the tank the headgasket let go.

We only have 91 octane here, and it runs like 89. So unleaded race gas is a must if you don't want ashtrays at more then 20 psi boost. But 323 whp at 18 psi on *only* 91 octane is fun though.....

turbovanmanČ
09-14-2007, 02:25 AM
Back from the dead.

So I need some +20 injectors for the Omni I am working on, so the red tops flow 460cc at 36 psi, so if I understand correctly, these should be just right?

TurboJerry
09-16-2007, 03:36 AM
Sounds right to me........

turbovanmanČ
09-16-2007, 05:22 AM
Sounds right to me........

I found the conversion, way too much. I ended up using some DSM 390 cc's, perfect, :thumb:

gasketmaster
09-17-2007, 01:28 AM
As the air gets better here it looks like I might be at the end of my injectors :)

turbovanmanČ
09-17-2007, 03:52 AM
As the air gets better here it looks like I might be at the end of my injectors :)


What are you running again?

Shadow
09-17-2007, 09:05 AM
+40's alone will support 350whp nicely. We streched them out 3-4 years ago on a full bodied S/C that went 11.6 @ 125mph, but that was on 78psi base preasure + 28 psi boost preasure = 106psi fuel pr in the rail! Never dyno'd the car, but I figured by wieght that it should have been around 380whp. The car was never WOT shifted, so that was a pretty easy run. Guess you could go a fair bit more if you re-caled up top for more fueling. (we just ran the FWD stage 5 with them)

gasketmaster
09-17-2007, 12:45 PM
+40's alone will support 350whp nicely. We streched them out 3-4 years ago on a full bodied S/C that went 11.6 @ 125mph, but that was on 78psi base preasure + 28 psi boost preasure = 106psi fuel pr in the rail! Never dyno'd the car, but I figured by wieght that it should have been around 380whp. The car was never WOT shifted, so that was a pretty easy run. Guess you could go a fair bit more if you re-caled up top for more fueling. (we just ran the FWD stage 5 with them)

I need to ask Gary if the fueling is already maxed out up top with his cal ;)

Reeves
09-18-2007, 01:52 AM
My +40's are at 100% duty cycle. Sometimes it even shows over 100%.....figure that one out...lol...
:yuck:

Frank
09-18-2007, 08:40 PM
That is because the duty cycle shown is the duty cycle calculated to meet the fuel required. Of course 100% is full on, so if you are showing duty cycle over 100%, then that means you are not meeting the fuel demand.

Reeves
09-18-2007, 09:20 PM
That is because the duty cycle shown is the duty cycle calculated to meet the fuel required. Of course 100% is full on, so if you are showing duty cycle over 100%, then that means you are not meeting the fuel demand.

Cool....

Alky is my friend.

GLHNSLHT2
09-18-2007, 11:48 PM
what are you using to see duty cycle?

Reeves
09-19-2007, 06:43 PM
duty cycle see'er

Directconnection
09-19-2007, 08:30 PM
duty cycle see'er


hahahaha. I got to get me one of those!

What about knock retard? (setting you up for this one)

Reeves
09-19-2007, 08:50 PM
I currently don't use the knock sensor, so I don't know about knock. And, nuh uh...you're the retard.

GLHNSLHT2
09-19-2007, 11:03 PM
smart ---

Reeves
09-19-2007, 11:24 PM
smart ---

Seriously though, I use a OTC scanner and a program Warren Hall wrote for it.

contraption22
09-20-2007, 08:16 AM
Reeves, where is your fuel pressure at?

Directconnection
09-20-2007, 12:24 PM
I currently don't use the knock sensor, so I don't know about knock. And, nuh uh...you're the retard.


You hurt me feelings.

turbovanmanČ
09-20-2007, 04:31 PM
You hurt me feelings.


Who are you kidding, you have no feelings, :p

Reeves
09-20-2007, 06:58 PM
Reeves, where is your fuel pressure at?

In the rail.

GLHSKEN
09-20-2007, 06:59 PM
Lol!!!

turbovanmanČ
09-24-2007, 07:22 AM
In the rail.

:drum: :faint:

Putter
11-07-2007, 01:12 AM
So the concensus is? I did some datalogging earlier today and found I'm hitting 80% duty cycle with my +40's at 20psi. From 10psi to 20psi is roughly an increase 35% duty cycle (an additonal ~8ms @ 4200rpms). These numbers make me think I couldn't even come close to 30psi boost on +40's...? And my best estimates make me think it will take ~30psi to make 350whp...?

cordes
11-07-2007, 08:49 PM
So the concensus is? I did some datalogging earlier today and found I'm hitting 80% duty cycle with my +40's at 20psi. From 10psi to 20psi is roughly an increase 35% duty cycle (an additonal ~8ms @ 4200rpms). These numbers make me think I couldn't even come close to 30psi boost on +40's...? And my best estimates make me think it will take ~30psi to make 350whp...?

I would agree that depending on setup your numbers are in line with reality. Although 80% DC and what many guys will go to are two different things.