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XR Tuner
06-28-2007, 02:13 PM
Good article on widebands.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php

8valves
06-28-2007, 02:31 PM
Great article, although a lot of the judging is subjective.

contraption22
06-28-2007, 02:36 PM
Now I'm having second thought about how much faith I put into my NGK unit.

8valves
06-28-2007, 02:37 PM
Now I'm having second thought about how much faith I put into my NGK unit.

Yeah, that's the downside to reading articles like that.

A good thing to do is find a buddy who has a wideband and put his in a separate bung near yours (just not behind it like I see everyone do!) and read them both at the same time, see what you get.

Downside to that is if they do read wrong... which one do you trust??

karlak
06-28-2007, 02:59 PM
I would think regardless of the unit you have it would be much better than a narrow band.

Tony Hanna
06-28-2007, 03:10 PM
How accurate are the AFR monitoring setups used with the average chassis dyno? A comparison there might be the way to go to check accuracy.

GLHNSLHT2
06-28-2007, 08:26 PM
I love my XD-16 Innovate! Whole heartedly agree with their findings. The innovate is a bit confusing to setup and wire but once done and you look back on it it wasn't too hard. The instructions are the problem. I had to read them 3 or 4 times to feel I was doing the right thing. Better than reading them once and doing it wrong though. And to think I almost got the Zietronix. I credit the wideband with my 32/37+ MPG City/Highway in my heavy tona with a 2.5 and +40's. It has been an invaluable tuning tool making something that has taken years to get a small understanding of to getting a full understanding of in a matter of days.

GLHS592
06-28-2007, 08:49 PM
I found my Zeitronix very easy to use.

Clay
06-28-2007, 09:00 PM
It was a toss up for me between the Innovate and the Zeitronix. Now I know Im going with the innovate. Thanks for the post!

nomadman2001
06-28-2007, 09:32 PM
Now I'm having second thought about how much faith I put into my NGK unit.

DOH! I have the NTK unit also - love it - maybe until now :confused: .

I wonder if they had a bad one..?

Hmmm, PA to CT a little too far to get together and compare side by side, too bad.

Thanks for the article.

Bubba
06-28-2007, 09:37 PM
I've got the Innovate XD-16 as well. I haven't used it much as I just finished installing it just before SDAC, but so far so good!

Darkwolf
06-29-2007, 02:34 AM
Was just messing around on Summit's page pricing the Innovate kit out and noticed the Summit brand kit looks pretty damn similar and even comes with Innovate's logging software. Anybody know for sure if it is just a Summit branded Innovate kit?
Innovate kit - gauge (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=INN%2D3769&N=700+115&autoview=sku)
Their Cheapest gauge is $99
Summit kit + gauge (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG2995&N=700+115&autoview=sku)

8valves
06-29-2007, 07:49 AM
Well, I've used both the PLX M300, and then switched to the AEM. I can definately tell a difference from an accuracy standpoint, as well as refresh rate.

For the question about dyno's integrated AFR readings... it depends on the dyno unfortunately. They need to be calibrated from time to time and so it's always a good idea to ask how long ago theirs was done.

Also, for those that do the tailipipe reading... that's fine if you don't have a cat. If you do, your readings can be better referred to as a ballpark reading. Before the cat is definately best.

For those that dyno often, or intend to do some fine tuning to their vehicle, it's a great idea to drop down the downpipe one day and weld in a bung for a wideband and just put a plug in it. That way when you need it some day you can tell them there is a bung under the car for it, for a much better reading.

Also, for those using race gas, 36" from the cylinder head port is recommended for best reading/longest life of the sensor when using a leaded gas.

turbovanmanČ
06-29-2007, 08:31 PM
Great article, :thumb:

Ondonti
06-29-2007, 11:03 PM
interesting but I swear ive seen other tests with quite different accuracy results.

MystryGuy
06-30-2007, 11:48 AM
i have zeitronix and am happy with it although i do tune on the safe side just to be sure :)

I cant see how AEM could be rated so high considering they have no datalogging or egt/TPS sensor reading abilities. I find it hard to watch a gauge at 27psi while watching the road too...

Aries_Turbo
06-30-2007, 12:12 PM
they didnt include the tech edge. I have some friends with the innovate. maybe ill look into a 2 bung test. :)

Brian

Tony Hanna
06-30-2007, 12:52 PM
Was just messing around on Summit's page pricing the Innovate kit out and noticed the Summit brand kit looks pretty damn similar and even comes with Innovate's logging software. Anybody know for sure if it is just a Summit branded Innovate kit?
Innovate kit - gauge (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=INN%2D3769&N=700+115&autoview=sku)
Their Cheapest gauge is $99
Summit kit + gauge (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG2995&N=700+115&autoview=sku)

I'm pretty curious about this as well. I was leaning toward the NGK unit originally, but after seeing the test...
If the Summit setup is really a rebadged Innovate for $250 with a gauge, then that sounds like the way to go.

Dave
06-30-2007, 04:38 PM
I'm using the wideband and, yes I love it, but I would say their scoring of its latency was misleading. Mine is a little laggy. Their LEDs are bright enough that I can tune it day or night and I can read it just fine while strolling down the road at 24psi. Then again mine is mounted right in plain sight for that reason.

moparzrule
06-30-2007, 05:02 PM
I don't use a wideband, I use a narrowband (dawes) and an westach EGT gauge and compare them to each other. Personally I think EGT should be mandatory equipment in any turbo mopar way before wideband, it tells you so much more than just A/F ratio. And the dawes, well I keep it flashing between yellow and red to keep the correct .90-.91 volts, solder the connections to the signal and run the ground directly too the battery and all is well. Has worked for me for 4 years now.
But as far as widebands go looks like the innovate kit is definitely the best.

turbovanmanČ
06-30-2007, 05:38 PM
I don't use a wideband, I use a narrowband (dawes) and an westach EGT gauge and compare them to each other. Personally I think EGT should be mandatory equipment in any turbo mopar way before wideband, it tells you so much more than just A/F ratio. And the dawes, well I keep it flashing between yellow and red to keep the correct .90-.91 volts, solder the connections to the signal and run the ground directly too the battery and all is well. Has worked for me for 4 years now.
But as far as widebands go looks like the innovate kit is definitely the best.

I agree but I guess when tweaking cals, you need to know what the AF is when cruising etc.

GLHNSLHT2
06-30-2007, 07:00 PM
the a/f when cruising will always be shooting for the switching point of the O2 sensor as long as you're not more than 25% off in your curves. It's under boost you need to know the a/f ratio. A narrowband O2 just doesn't do it. Sorry but shooting for .91v when tuning just flat out doesn't work. You can be way way way off in fueling, either lean or rich. Now maybe with an EGT you can be close but spark curves and probe location have a lot to do with the readings of a EGT. A NBO2 and an EGT just aren't accurate ways to tune with.

A scanner telling you when knock is accuring gives you a direct reading on how to tune the spark so no detonation accurs, and a WBO2 to tell you how much fuel to add.

8valves
06-30-2007, 07:26 PM
I didn't read all this, but did anyone mention that high EGT's can indicate either rich AFR, or lean AFR?

That's why a wideband is essential in my opinion, far more than an EGT to me at least.

puppet
06-30-2007, 09:00 PM
I didn't read all this, but did anyone mention that high EGT's can indicate either rich AFR, or lean AFR?

That's why a wideband is essential in my opinion, far more than an EGT to me at least.This is true about high EGT's ... trick is to then richen up or lean it out (a change in EGT's will follow) to determine which side of the fence your on and go from there.

moparzrule
06-30-2007, 10:23 PM
Thats why I said the dawes AND the egt, not one or the other. You have to have both, and compare them.
Ignition timing and cam timing can also make EGT's rich/lean....another part of EGT tuning but your A/F needs to be close to begin with.
Heck some of those widebands showed a tolerance of +/- 1 whole point. even the dawes narrowband can get you that close if not closer!

Aries_Turbo
07-01-2007, 12:17 AM
narrowbands arent accurate at all. .91v can mean 10:1 or 13:1..... nowhere close to what you need. you could see .91 and 1600 egts and say "hmmm the dawes says im doing good but the egts say i need to advance the timing" when you were actually at 12.9:1 and needed more fuel and now you just detonated yourself to bits.

i dont care if you put your buddies wideband in to check your narrowband gauge. THEY ARENT ACCURATE AT ANYTHING RICHER THAN 14:1!!!!!!!

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/522/o2sensor-output.gif

see this image. you have less than a tenth of a volt from 14.7:1 to 11:1. you can easily lose that in the wiring.

there is a reason that the wideband output to the controller is spread over a 5v range.... RESOLUTION. you just dont have any accuracy with less than .1v range. you can jiggle the connectors and lose that.

Brian

TurboGLH
07-01-2007, 01:17 AM
narrowbands arent accurate at all. .91v can mean 10:1 or 13:1..... nowhere close to what you need. you could see .91 and 1600 egts and say "hmmm the dawes says im doing good but the egts say i need to advance the timing" when you were actually at 12.9:1 and needed more fuel and now you just detonated yourself to bits.

i dont care if you put your buddies wideband in to check your narrowband gauge. THEY ARENT ACCURATE AT ANYTHING RICHER THAN 14:1!!!!!!!

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/522/o2sensor-output.gif

see this image. you have less than a tenth of a volt from 14.7:1 to 11:1. you can easily lose that in the wiring.

there is a reason that the wideband output to the controller is spread over a 5v range.... RESOLUTION. you just dont have any accuracy with less than .1v range. you can jiggle the connectors and lose that.

Brian

That graph is much better than the one I've been using, hope you don't mind if I steal it from you. :)

Somehow this always comes back up, we had the same discussion last year here.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3282

This info should really be a sticky in the EFI section, a wideband is just too cheap to not get one at this point.

moparzrule
07-01-2007, 06:21 AM
The ECU reads the same O2 sensor the dawes is connected too, if it's that inaccurate our engines would be blowing up all the time because the ECU is getting wrong readings. And like I said if you solder the connections correctly you can jiggle the wire all day and it shouldn't change voltage.

Ondonti
07-01-2007, 07:19 AM
i have zeitronix and am happy with it although i do tune on the safe side just to be sure :)

I cant see how AEM could be rated so high considering they have no datalogging or egt/TPS sensor reading abilities. I find it hard to watch a gauge at 27psi while watching the road too...

Well I swear ive seen another test that rated the zeitronix much more accurate and some of these high rated ones as being...well not even close (off more then a point).
All I ever see in magazines are tests that are obviously paid for by one of the companies involved. Proven psychological fact over and over that the person who pays for the study always wins, be it in science, medicine, or psychology. Thats why we need the FDA etcetera...may not be perfect but they aren't paid by the people selling products.

Speedeuphoria
07-01-2007, 07:24 AM
The ECU reads the same O2 sensor the dawes is connected too, if it's that inaccurate our engines would be blowing up all the time because the ECU is getting wrong readings. And like I said if you solder the connections correctly you can jiggle the wire all day and it shouldn't change voltage.


It dosent use the O2 in wot anyway. I bet if you hooked a wideband up on your car you'd be sold and supprised at how far off you are from what you think the A/F is, been done time and time again.

moparzrule
07-01-2007, 07:34 AM
I knew someone was gonna say that. Not everytime is the car at WOT in boost.
Apparently most widebands are off .5-1 point anyway LOL. It could say I'm at 12:1 when I'm really at a deadly 13:1.

GLHNSLHT2
07-01-2007, 11:01 AM
But at a certain boost level, 5-7psi on stock ECU's the car goes into Open loop and ignores the O2 because it knows the O2 is innacurate and it can't use it's readings.

puppet
07-01-2007, 12:44 PM
So, your saying that a person using a stock ECU needs a wideband?

moparzrule
07-01-2007, 01:07 PM
What about a non-stock ECU then? I've had a TU cal and also a shel-game cal.

Aries_Turbo
07-01-2007, 02:38 PM
1. the stock ecu only uses the o2 as a switch to shoot for stoich (14.7:1) at part throttle up to a certain boost point. if its reading incorrectly enough youll see poor fuel economy and or performance (ie knock retard pulling up to 15deg of timing) and youll investigate. Look at the graph... it has a curve characteristic of a on/off switch.

2. you dont have to have a wideband or anything. folks have gotten away without it for years but there were quite a few engine casualties more often than now and the cars were alot slower too. stock ecu = ok to the stock boost setpoint that it calls for. I remember Gary saying a few years back that he thought the ecu changes he made to his daytona were darn near spot on with egt and narrowband o2 that he was using to tune.... then he pulled the car on the dyno and everything changed. it was super off the chart rich iirc.

3. matt, you dont solder every single connection. there are still 2 connectors at least from the o2 to the ecu. if they have any corrosion on them or a bad ground they could be off. did you look at the graph???? you only have a minuscule amount of range to read from in the rich range that we want to be in at WOT. its just not enough resolution to fine tune an engine from.

Im not trying to be a pain in the butt. all im saying is that a narrowband isnt really good enough to ensure that your engine is safe when pushing the envelope or tuning calibrations. with the cost dropping like flies for widebands compared to a few years back, it makes sense to buy one rather than mods you can live without.

matt, sell a few more manifolds and pick one up. its the best <200$ ive spent so far. I built the tech edge 2A0 kit and i use a palm pda as the screen. I use the laptop too but for day to day use, the palm gets the nod. :)

Brian

johnl
07-01-2007, 02:47 PM
All lies. Lies, Lies, Lies.

I have a Zeitronix LOL

moparzrule
07-01-2007, 03:11 PM
Brian, I may get one some day but seeing that widebands in that test can vary as much as 1 whole point in accuracy makes me very weary of getting one.

Dave
07-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Matt this is why you don't buy the crap ones. AEM and Innovate both are +/- .25 of a point. Honestly, you wont get much closer than that. Buy a quality device, and you'll get a quality device.

I tried tuning with with just a Dawe's Device and it just isn't accurate. As Brian said, that .1 of a volt and your EGT readings can and will be very misleading. You can get away with it and you probally will for a while, but one day when you do a simple fuel pressure drop or timing advance, there goes everything. I argued with these guys about WB's for a while when I was younger, now I'm not as ignorant and I feel safe. There is a lot of safety behind my motor in just accessories. All I need now are some forged pistons.

8valves
07-02-2007, 07:52 AM
As much as I agree with some magazine tests being quite a bit biased, I can't help but see how their findings could be off by much if they're using SAE testing gasses for accuracy. The only way the results could be foobarred is if they blatantly changed the facts and findings. I can only hope this isn't the case.

contraption22
07-02-2007, 08:59 AM
They mention that the NGK unit is one of only 2 in the test that can be calibrated... I wonder if it had been calibrated correctly for the test.

puppet
07-02-2007, 07:24 PM
What I got out of the article was:
A) Can't leave on engine indefinitely and expect reliability,
B) None of the units can be taken as gospel without considering data from other sensors such as EGT , an exhaust gas analyzer and dyno/track time.
C) Most useful for people manipulating fuel/spark maps within the ECU ... fills a hole in the dash for all others not doing that. Equates to more meaningless data .... it would even seem with some of the units, over time and/or right out of the box, even useless data.

Right now I'll be sticking with checking plugs .. monitoring knock, EGTs and watching my NB to let me know when I'm about to screw the pooch.

There is one thing that does interest me about the innovate unit and its ability to alter fuel ratios for economy. If the boys could pull off a dual cal for our engines along those lines it would be sweet. Flip a switch for economy or power.

contraption22
07-02-2007, 07:46 PM
I dunno... the way I see it, my kit reads 14.5-14.7 @ cruise, so how off could it be?

GLHNSLHT2
07-02-2007, 07:48 PM
Any of the WBO2's with a programmable 0-5v output can be programmed to send a simulated NB output to the ECU. The programming software in the innovate unit makes it pretty simple though.

As for having a dual calibration for economy and power it's POINTLESS. Why? Because with the innovate and a custom ECU you can have both in the same program. How? Feed the NB output to the ECU having the switching point set at a leaner a/f ratio. I run mine at 16.3 on my 2.5 Tona. Soon as I hit 3psi of boost (very rarely unless I really want to acclerate fast) I have it set to go into open loop and run 13.1-12.3:1 a/f's depending on boost level and wether or not I'm at WOT or PT. Easy as pie.

Now you don't even need the custom ECU to do this. Why? Well because the Stock ECU ignores the O2 above a certain boost level anyway. So run the Innovate with the switching point for the O2 leaner and once you hit 5-7psi the stock ECu will ignore it and run in open loop. If you have the right amount of airflow to fuel you'll be able to see it on the WBO2. If you have a rich condition you need to add air by either raising the boost if you're beyond the 2 bar's range, or by porting the head, better i/c, etc. if you're still under 14.7psi and plan to stay there. If you're too lean well then add bigger injectors. The stock ECU should be able to compensate for +20's and you'll have extra fuel on the top end. A tuneable ECU is still better but it can be done with the stocker.

GLHNSLHT2
07-02-2007, 07:57 PM
The Innovate is +/- a tenth of a Volt. That's pretty damn good.

Dave
07-02-2007, 11:13 PM
As much as I agree with some magazine tests being quite a bit biased, I can't help but see how their findings could be off by much if they're using SAE testing gasses for accuracy. The only way the results could be foobarred is if they blatantly changed the facts and findings. I can only hope this isn't the case.

I'm sure it's legite. I'm only saying this because my unit scored number two. Hooray! :eyebrows:

Mr overkill
10-02-2007, 10:56 PM
did anyone ever findout if the summit kit is indeed a innovite kit called summit and they said they cannot say who makes there kits

moparman76_69
10-03-2007, 12:12 AM
The gauges include everything you need to tune via laptop computer or plug-and-play operation:

* Controller
* Wideband O2 sensor
* O2 bung
* Wiring harness
* Innovate logging software

It must at least be pretty similar to use the Innovate software.

zin
10-03-2007, 02:30 AM
Yeah, that's the downside to reading articles like that.

A good thing to do is find a buddy who has a wideband and put his in a separate bung near yours (just not behind it like I see everyone do!) and read them both at the same time, see what you get.

Downside to that is if they do read wrong... which one do you trust??

Reminds me of a saying my boss likes to quote: "A man who wears two watches never really knows what time it is!" :p

MiniMopar
10-03-2007, 02:36 AM
Dead horse, but I'll just say that before the WB02 I was blind...now I can see.

It's true that you can grainger your cal to give you full boost and stay in closed loop. I've notice that the cals vary over the years, but at some point they will go into open loop whether you are at WOT or not. It's more a matter of how much they trust their own boost control. You DON'T want to be at stoich at 20psi of boost and the narrow band gives you pretty much no useful info where you need it. It's that simple. They were not designed to be accurate outside that crossover point, and trust me they make no effort to make sure their sensors are consistent far away from 14:1.

I got the TechEdge kit. It works great and was fun to build.

zin
10-03-2007, 02:46 AM
The gauges include everything you need to tune via laptop computer or plug-and-play operation:

* Controller
* Wideband O2 sensor
* O2 bung
* Wiring harness
* Innovate logging software

It must at least be pretty similar to use the Innovate software.

It's my understanding that Innovate does a lot of electronics for a lot of manufactures, it would not surprise me in the least to find out that they are private labeling one for Summit, but that does not mean that it is the same unit that they sell, it likely is a similar unit with some corners cut to allow the pricing, and still have some distinction between the Summit brand and "the good one".

One thing to remember is that (TMK) only Bosch and NTK are making (read manufacturing) wideband O2 sensors, so the real difference is in the signal conditioners, not the sensor, though the sensors styles are a little different and would need the correct conditioner to work properly. I'm lucky enough to have an older Horiba, which is a lab quality wideband; check them out on their website to get an idea what it takes to make a truly accurate wideband. That said, I feel these wideband meters are not that different from any other gauge, they may not be truly accurate, but as long as they repeat and you are backing-up your info with other data (EGT, Plug readings, etc), they can be a real valuable tool when tuning, just don't rely too much on any one gauge/sensor. Just My .02

moparman76_69
10-04-2007, 12:05 AM
It's my understanding that Innovate does a lot of electronics for a lot of manufactures, it would not surprise me in the least to find out that they are private labeling one for Summit, but that does not mean that it is the same unit that they sell, it likely is a similar unit with some corners cut to allow the pricing, and still have some distinction between the Summit brand and "the good one".

One thing to remember is that (TMK) only Bosch and NTK are making (read manufacturing) wideband O2 sensors, so the real difference is in the signal conditioners, not the sensor, though the sensors styles are a little different and would need the correct conditioner to work properly. I'm lucky enough to have an older Horiba, which is a lab quality wideband; check them out on their website to get an idea what it takes to make a truly accurate wideband. That said, I feel these wideband meters are not that different from any other gauge, they may not be truly accurate, but as long as they repeat and you are backing-up your info with other data (EGT, Plug readings, etc), they can be a real valuable tool when tuning, just don't rely too much on any one gauge/sensor. Just My .02


True, that's why I said similar, not the same thing. Just like their are only a handful of companies making tv components, but there are hundreds of brands of tvs. Or, you could just say its like a 350z v. G35 or camry vs. lexus gs. Basically the same but you add a few frills and a name on it and it makes more money. :thumb:

turboaddict
10-04-2007, 12:28 AM
anyone have access to this full article anymore? says i need a subscription, seeing as how i dont own a ford i dont think its worth it!

Ondonti
10-04-2007, 12:44 AM
Im guessing they didnt test between same units from a brand to see how consistent the numbers are from the same brands wideband units.

I bet there is a huge difference there and that makes up a lot of the variance in the numbers.

Then you have one of those situations like where car manufacturers send "hot" versions of their new cars to testers. That or the people doing the test can choose the most accurate device they recieved from a financially helpful company and choose a bad unit (or just any unit sitting around) for others.

It happens all the time and sometimes the people running the test dont even think about the fact that they are doing it. It all stays under the veil of subconsciousness.

contraption22
10-04-2007, 06:55 AM
If you look at the sensors were installed in the pipe, it is easy to see why some didn't get as good of a signal as others. All the wideband kits that I have seen have pretty specific instructions on how they are to be installed.