1st Time Mopar owner 1989 plymouth horizon turbo swap questions

[ClownRacer]

Hey guys im a vw guy i dont normally take a shine to anything domestic(except the zo6 but thats another story :) ) but when my friend came to me with this super clean '89 horizon i fell in love its sooooo clean with 47k miles the thing has the original tires on it! but its a slug its so slow it has a 2.2l 4cyl with an autocrapic tranny.....now my friend and i got to talking and he was saying how he wanted this car to have a bit more power he was talking all crazy waving a pep boys flyer around telling me how hes going to install some stupid fart can exhaust and a tornado intake and be running ten second quarter miles like fast and furious :mecry: so i slapped some sense into him and this is the plan of attack i would like to swap in a 2.5L turbo engine(but from what???) and a 5 speed transmission and just keep the outside totally stock looking for a crazy sleeper :thumb: now im a pretty good mechanic i am quite comfortable with wiring i have like 10 vw engine swaps under my belt the only thing that would turn me off would be any hardcore welding(i.e. new mounts etc) with vw its pretty much all bolts in just the wiring is a pita....so anyway heres my questions

1.what engine would be the easiest swap
2.is a 5speed swap a easy thing to do?does the pedal cluster just bolt in?
3.what are the best shop manuals to buy? (i dont mind spending money for really good manuals)
4.What would be a good brake upgrade? would i be able to swap out the rear drums with disc?
5.also need a good suspension reccomendation

thanks guys i would have searched but i dont really even know where to begin :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Clownracer/vrtx5.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Clownracer/vrtx4.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Clownracer/vrtx3.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Clownracer/vrtx2.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o181/Clownracer/vrtx1.jpg

[tryingbe]

Bookmark these site first

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/
http://www.turbosunleashed.com/
http://www.fwdperformance.com/
http://www.polybushings.com/



1. You can put any 2.2/2.5 turbo dodge engine in the car and it will bolt up to your stock mounts. The transmission mount you might need to get from a manual omni.
2. 5spd spay is easy, pedal should be bolt on. You'll have to cut couple of holes on the floor for the shifter cables, but it's straight forward. http://www.thedodgegarage.com/trans_guide.html#Installing
3. Factory repair manaul.
4. http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/brakes.html#lbody
5. Check out http://www.polybushings.com/ and
http://www.fwdperformance.com/ for your suspension needs.

Easiest thing to do is probably find a wrecked donor turbo dodge and steal everything from it.

[ClownRacer]

Easiest thing to do is probably find a wrecked donor turbo dodge and steal everything from it.


awesome thanks for the quick reply! any recommendations as to what car too start looking for?

[mcsvt]

Hey glad you made it over here :thumb:

The swap should be just as easy as a VW, maybe even easier...

[mcsvt]

awesome thanks for the quick reply! any recommendations as to what car too start looking for?

The preference would be 89+ Common Block. T-II being the best 8 valve setup for strength. In reality, any year of these motors can be strong if built correctly.

[RJ138]

awesome thanks for the quick reply! any recommendations as to what car too start looking for?


Spirit R/T...:eyebrows:

Pretty much every late 80's dodge/chrysler/plymouth car/van had the option of a turbocharged engine. Personally, I would look for a rotted out T2 car and swap everything over from that.

What kind of dogs are those? They look tough, the tan one looks like its about to attack!!! Haha

[tryingbe]

awesome thanks for the quick reply! any recommendations as to what car too start looking for?


Rusted out manual turbo anything will make good parts car for the omni.

[Vigo]

didnt read the whole thread... but:


before you go tearing up a perfectly nice car trying to do a swap you've never done before, consider this:

cars like that are hard to find anywhere nowadays. a NICE tbi omni is a far rarer thing in this community than a ragged out turbo (swapped or not) with bigger/better this and that, which are pretty common.

If you want to go for performance, thats great but imo you should stick with things that arent going to ruin the character of the car as a semi-rare 'survivor'. i.e. i wouldnt go crazy with the interior, mess up the paint, or try and put ground effects on it. black out the chrome and put some decent wheels on it and you will be surprised.

also, if your friend is a noob (sounds like it) who might kill himself with a turbo omni, might split it into a staged thing.. just swapping a 5 speed into a tbi omni pretty much gets you from 18.9 to 16.9, and bolt ons and freebies like exhaust, filter, advanced timing, tstat etc will get you to the low 16s. your 4000+rpm performance will still be ---- but if this guy plans on owning a project thats gonna need a lot of work and tinkering, he might wanna do his teething on the smaller/slower stuff instead of having his mechanic buddy hook him up on day 1 and have a messed up or wrecked pile of ---- on day 100.

just my .02!

[r00tcause]

Hey guys im a vw guy i dont normally take a shine to anything domestic(except the zo6 but thats another story :) ) but when my friend came to me with this super clean '89 horizon i fell in love its sooooo clean with 47k miles the thing has the original tires on it! but its a slug its so slow it has a 2.2l 4cyl with an autocrapic tranny.....now my friend and i got to talking and he was saying how he wanted this car to have a bit more power he was talking all crazy waving a pep boys flyer around telling me how hes going to install some stupid fart can exhaust and a tornado intake and be running ten second quarter miles like fast and furious :mecry: so i slapped some sense into him and this is the plan of attack i would like to swap in a 2.5L turbo engine(but from what???) and a 5 speed transmission and just keep the outside totally stock looking for a crazy sleeper :thumb: now im a pretty good mechanic i am quite comfortable with wiring i have like 10 vw engine swaps under my belt the only thing that would turn me off would be any hardcore welding(i.e. new mounts etc) with vw its pretty much all bolts in just the wiring is a pita....so anyway heres my questions

1.what engine would be the easiest swap
2.is a 5speed swap a easy thing to do?does the pedal cluster just bolt in?
3.what are the best shop manuals to buy? (i dont mind spending money for really good manuals)
4.What would be a good brake upgrade? would i be able to swap out the rear drums with disc?
5.also need a good suspension reccomendation


Good news. TD's are as swappable as VW's. You need to use the omni's mounting brackets but other than that *every 2.2/2.5* be it turbo or not will bolt right in. The hardest part of the job is wiring and thats not hat hard either. The bext car to use is an 89 up turbo car because they have the strongest block. If you have the cash and want something wild pull the motor and trans for a daytona or spirit r/t (2.2 16v turbo). Otherwise you can get the SOHC turbo (2.2 or 2.5) from practically any car chrysler made. Your best bet for wiring since its an 89 is to adapt an 88-89 turbo harness from any turbo car of that year. It will have a 50 pin harness that you will have to transfer to the omni's 40 pin. The axles you use are the ones you already have - late model auto omni axles... it's an 89 so it probably has large spline which fits in the good 5 speeds. If not then either get 2 90 omni auto axles for unequal length or 2 drivers side axles and use the intermediate shaft from the car you took the trans for equal length. Most say it doesn't really matter. I prefer the unequal setup. The best trans is the 555 or 568. They aren't the easiest to locate becuase they are only inthe T2 VNT and T3 cars but you could just buy one from a vendor (id go with cliff ramsdell). They are NOT expensive. Nothing on TD's is very expensive. You'll need to swap to a turbo fuel pump... just go with an aftermarket walbro.

BTW thats a nice looking omni!

[RedDeerGLH]

Since it is an 89 it should be tbi so it would have the 50 pin connector already. This makes it real easy. Go to the junkyard pick up an 89 turbo minivan harness which has a 50 pin bulkhead connector same as the omni/horizon, there are 2 wires that need to be swapped and the rest is plug and play. 89 automatic axles will work just fine with any newer 5 speed you would put in the car. Other than that look for 89 and newer cars as they have the better turbo setup.

[r00tcause]

Since it is an 89 it should be tbi so it would have the 50 pin connector already. This makes it real easy. Go to the junkyard pick up an 89 turbo minivan harness which has a 50 pin bulkhead connector same as the omni/horizon, there are 2 wires that need to be swapped and the rest is plug and play. 89 automatic axles will work just fine with any newer 5 speed you would put in the car. Other than that look for 89 and newer cars as they have the better turbo setup.

Good point - wasn't thinking! 88/89 is 50 pin smec - 90 is SBEC. Course that just makes is even easier. :)

[overlordsshadow]

I've had my stock 92 tbi fuel pump last me up to the 20psi mark steady. Wasn't Until I swapped in the walbro that it went downhill. Also, no one has mentioned gettin an A/F gauge or an EGT gauge. You will definatly want those in there at the least. More performance = more gauges needed.

[r00tcause]

I've had my stock 92 tbi fuel pump last me up to the 20psi mark steady. Wasn't Until I swapped in the walbro that it went downhill. Also, no one has mentioned gettin an A/F gauge or an EGT gauge. You will definatly want those in there at the least. More performance = more gauges needed.

You don't "need" a/f or egt for a stock computer controlled turbo. You do need a boost gauge though for tuning and to make sure its boosting properly once its done. I would also spring for the a/f though. However, an EGT? You don't need that unless you get very serious about going fast.

[overlordsshadow]

True, new boost gauge is a must and A/F highly recommended. If going further than stock a decent EGT is a good investment. Thx for the correct before his buddy goes and buys out pep boys.

[ClownRacer]

sweet info guys so it looks like i am on the search for a 89 turbo minivan(if you had told me a year ago id be excited about searching for a minivan....) vigo dont worry i am not a hack mechanic during this swap everything will be kept as factory as possible i like to keep upgrades and such as clean as i can sort of a OEM+ look about the only things this car will see is a mild lowering widened steelie rims and something done about the horrible orange turn signals up front(i may just delete them) does anyone know if there was a omni or horizon offered without the terrible 5mph bumpers? also vigo just remember turbo cars dont have to be any faster then the boost control allows :D

this car will have a air/fuel and egt gauge (i think most turbo/supercharged engines need a bit more supervising) i just have to figure out how to hide the stuff in the interior.....oh and incase anyone is worried i will be saving all the old stuff so the car can be put back to stock if it needs to be

[overlordsshadow]

You sound like a pro who knows what he is doing and takes pride in his work. Good job man.

[r00tcause]

sweet info guys so it looks like i am on the search for a 89 turbo minivan(if you had told me a year ago id be excited about searching for a minivan....) vigo dont worry i am not a hack mechanic during this swap everything will be kept as factory as possible i like to keep upgrades and such as clean as i can sort of a OEM+ look about the only things this car will see is a mild lowering widened steelie rims and something done about the horrible orange turn signals up front(i may just delete them) does anyone know if there was a omni or horizon offered without the terrible 5mph bumpers? also vigo just remember turbo cars dont have to be any faster then the boost control allows :D

this car will have a air/fuel and egt gauge (i think most turbo/supercharged engines need a bit more supervising) i just have to figure out how to hide the stuff in the interior.....oh and incase anyone is worried i will be saving all the old stuff so the car can be put back to stock if it needs to be

Early impossible to find 78/79 omni's had shorter bumper ends - just shorten the brackets yourself... hmm also the old rampages had short bumper ends that should work. If you do find an OLD omni prepare to be further amused - those cars had a 1.7 VW engine.

[ClownRacer]

If you do find an OLD omni prepare to be further amused - those cars had a 1.7 VW engine.

hhaha i would love to see that....thankfully the smallest engine vw offered was a 1.8l during that time....and that engine sucked the 1.7 had to be scary slow.....crappy german wiring/reliability coupled with shitty american fit and finish that car must have been a real winner :D

[Darkwolf]

hhaha i would love to see that....thankfully the smallest engine vw offered was a 1.8l during that time....and that engine sucked the 1.7 had to be scary slow.....crappy german wiring/reliability coupled with shitty american fit and finish that car must have been a real winner :D

I had one in an 81 plymouth horizan and an automatic to boot. It had 70 angry horses under the hood and could almost reach speeds of 80mph.

[r00tcause]

hhaha i would love to see that....thankfully the smallest engine vw offered was a 1.8l during that time....and that engine sucked the 1.7 had to be scary slow.....crappy german wiring/reliability coupled with shitty american fit and finish that car must have been a real winner :D

Prepare to die laughing then!! The 78 Omni/Horizon was Motor Trend car of the year!! I kid you not!!

FYI the Omni was VW powered from 1978 to 1982.

Quote:

"The small Volkswagen engine used an enlarged Chrysler-designed cylinder head and intake manifold and produced 75 hp (56 kW) and 90 ft·lbf (122 N·m)."

Now back on topic, I've been in (and owned) a lot of TD's and I tell you a well set up Omni handles amazingly well. It's by far my favorites TD. Other than the complete lack of aero and the cramped front seats (if your tall its a bit tight) it's really a great car to drive. :) That being said, shelby charger seat rails will lower the seats 1 inch (they are bolt in!) and will give you a little more room.

You know I don;t even own any TD's anymore but I tell you if I left these forums I wouldn't know what to do with all this accumulated TD knowledge. :|

Hmm, your a VW guy so one last thing. A VW big bumper fits pretty well on an Omni. Here's a pic!

http://home.comcast.net/~shopkins7/marks1.jpg

[ClownRacer]

Hmm, your a VW guy so one last thing. A VW big bumper fits pretty well on an Omni. Here's a pic!

http://home.comcast.net/~shopkins7/marks1.jpg

DONE DEAL i love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have 2 sets sitting around right now that im going to play with....just a quickie update im just waiting on a check so i can buy some parts and get to work....the car will probably be getting stripped down in late sept and will be coming out to play in early spring....just took a 15 hour round trip to niagra falls in it she ran flawlessly the whole time at about 95mph(i think because theres just 80 on the dash):lol:

[91dodgespiritrt]

hhaha i would love to see that....thankfully the smallest engine vw offered was a 1.8l during that time....and that engine sucked the 1.7 had to be scary slow.....crappy german wiring/reliability coupled with shitty american fit and finish that car must have been a real winner :D

The Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon won Motor Trend's 1978 or 1979 "Car of the Year" award. The Chrysler Horizon won "Car of the Year" a couple years before that in Europe.

Mike

[Directconnection]

Ok... www.thedodgegarage.com and the other link in which I forget the url... Dempsey Bowling's website. Dempsey breakes down all the turbo designations and parts chnages that were made through the years starting in 1984 through 1993. He also tells you how to upgrade the brakes to 4 wheel discs and some others have gone further with upgrades using stock components.

Depends on how quick you want to go or power produced. I would find a 1989 T-II engine from a 1989 shelby daytona, or T-II GTC.

Little background 1st... from 1984-1988, every turbo engine Chrysler offered was a 2.2 If they were the generic turbo offering at 146hp, they were NOT intercooled and had the less than desireable intake setup. Had a cast crank and lightwieght rods from '86-88 and not all that strong (but ok for 200whp no problem) These engines were 2.2 and called the Turbo one (T-I) at 146hp.

In '86 and '87, Shelby modified 500 factory T-I Omnis (now called
GLH-S) and 1000 T-I Chargers(GLH-S) and Shadows (CSX) and output reached 175hp. They were intercooled and had suspension upgrades along with other goodies. They were still 2.2 liters, but now called the T-II engine because it is upgraded via intercooling, etc. In 1987, Dodge took the T-II a few steps further by putting them in their Daytonas (Shelby Z) and made serious upgrades throughout. The cast cranks was tossed in favor of a forged crank, HD full floating forged rods were used, cross drilled block and head, intercooler of course, HD getrag equipped 555 tranny replaced the fragile as glass 525 (ok, they aren't quite that fragile, but the 555 is head and shoulders better) big swaybars front and rear, and other suspension tweaks. So... the '87 and '88 Shelby Z good the goodies as a T-II engine to make it alot more reliable especially if making alot more hp than what the factory had in mind at the time.

1989 was the start of something better. It was the new desing of the lock called common block. Chrysler wanted a 4cylinder that could be more responsive like a v-6 so they stroked it to 2.5l. The common block meant it was the same block used (and alot of other parts ) whether it was a 2.5, 2.5 turbo, 2.2, opr 2.2 turbo. The 2.5 turbo and the 2.2 turbo shared EVERYTHING except for crank and pistons (and turbo). The common block was also redesigned with more beef for added strength. The 2.5 T-I rated at 150hp now came with the HD T-II rod as standard equipment. No lightweight rods anymore in the T-I. The T-II.... forged crank, HD T-II rods, cross drilled head and block, even better brakes in '89 and suspension, etc... and an even better version of the HD 555 tranny where the T-I got a better than the old 525 tranny with a 520 (originally came out in '87 was the 520...but no wheres the strength of the 555 that came ONLY on T-II cars)

Summary... all T-II cars were the high output turbo version and were always a 2.2l engine. They all came with the best of everything the factory had to offer. In 1989, the T-I which became a stroked 2.5l came with most of the upgraded internals that the T-II used to only have.

T-II is a rare engine, but can be found here and there. T-I 2.5 is getting hard to com by these days, but 100 times more common than the T-II. 2.5 will make more torque than a similarly equipped 2.2, but at the same time, make less HP.

Best bet.... find a 1989+ T-I engine. I guess the '89 T-I minivan hanress works according to the previous poster. Find a 555 (made up until 1989) or a 523 which is a very decent tranny that may be on par with the 555. Best tranny is the 568 found in 1990 to 1993 cars. BTW T-IV and T-III cars were all intercooled and turbocharged 2.2s. The T-III was a lotus designed head on a 2.2 shortblock than made 224hp stock on 11psi vs 175hp at 12psi for the T-II and T-IV.


There may be some mixing of tranny mounts and axles to make the 523/568 work from what I hear, so maybe the 520/555 is your best bet.

Intercooler/radiator setup...people like to rape the T-II powered shelby Z cars for their TII ngine, 555 trannies and rad/intercooler setups for a complete swap (for the most part) then the SLH brake upgrade as well from minivan parts.

[Nemesismachine]

DONE DEAL i love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have 2 sets sitting around right now that im going to play with....just a quickie update im just waiting on a check so i can buy some parts and get to work....the car will probably be getting stripped down in late sept and will be coming out to play in early spring....just took a 15 hour round trip to niagra falls in it she ran flawlessly the whole time at about 95mph(i think because theres just 80 on the dash):lol:

Do you have any more pictures of that car?! Thats the one Ive been looking for for years!

[Vigo]

that IS sweet looking.

tbi omni at 95.. good deal. in my experience 95 is about it for stock tbi/autos. i got my 5spd swapped modded tbi aries above 115, weeeee.

fyi, straight down on the speedo is about 115, all the way back to 5 mph is about 135.

[91dodgespiritrt]

"cars like that are hard to find anywhere nowadays. a NICE tbi omni is a far rarer thing in this community than a ragged out turbo..."

Vigo, I couldn't agree more. I would ADD to the car not subtract from it. I'd rebuild the 2.2 into a 2.5 TII. I wouldn't make it tacky. I've added my .02 to your .02 which = .04.
By the way Clownracer, where are you in Jersey? I'm in Camden County - are you and the Horizon close by? I'd love to check out the project.
Mike

[GLHSKEN]

In an Omni I would stay 2.2L...

[Directconnection]

In an Omni I would stay 2.2L...


hehe... I just had a dream this morning that my car was finally together and with all the work I had done to it, I pulled 235whp on 42psi. hehe I was like: that's less than Simon! Da%$ F^&&*&*ing 2.5! I knew I should have gone 2.2! Then my daughter wakes me up. Phew....

[ClownRacer]

for anyone curious this car was destroyed when my friend tossed it off a 20' cliff while laughing uncontrollably....both he and i were ok but the projects done.......now back to vws where i belong :)

[overlordsshadow]

what?!

[Vigo]

if it was turbo you probly both woulda died. count your blessings i guess. :p