Went to the track... LOL

[Mysterio]

Dissapointed to say the least. First, the mods on my 87 shelby charger:

FWDP Stage 4 cal
3 bar map
spearco fmic
afpr
+40's
3'' exhaust


Best time was 15.2 @ 87 w/ a 2.2 60 ft.

15 lbs of boost. Intake temp sensor isn't hooked up & my o2 sensor is fouled out so I'm running rich as all hell. It was fun either way but damn my car is slow :-D

[93sundance]

lol, u think ur car is slow? Check my thread.

[Directconnection]

Dissapointed to say the least. First, the mods on my 87 shelby charger:

FWDP Stage 4 cal
3 bar map
spearco fmic
afpr
+40's
3'' exhaust


Best time was 15.2 @ 87 w/ a 2.2 60 ft.

15 lbs of boost. Intake temp sensor isn't hooked up & my o2 sensor is fouled out so I'm running rich as all hell. It was fun either way but damn my car is slow :-D

Something is very wrong.
FWIW, most people with the fwdp S5 cals need to fine tune their fuel pressure as they come overly rich. I am not suggesting you lower your FP as it may be fine where it's at, but try monitoring your a/f ratio and adjust accordingly. My friend's car, for example, has an S5 and he had to turn the base from 55 to 49 or a tad less.

Stock at 15psi, you should have run low 14s with decent traction, but at around 95 mph. Adding the spearco and cal should net you high 90's I believe. Stock turbo, still?

[Mysterio]

Stock turbo.

I know I'm running VERY rich. I just haven't had a chance to drill and weld in the bung on my new exhaust for my wideband. The charge temp sensor isn't hooked up and my o2 sensor is fouled out throwing a code. So I'm running very rich. I had a 91 mph pass with a crappy 60 ft. Then I had the 2.2 60 ft with a 15.2@86 or whatever it was.

I figured my times should be lower than that. It's still got a lotta bugs to work out.

I was hitting overboost cutout at 5500 rpm in 4th gear right at the end of the track. Which I shouldn't be with my cal. So I'm going to try and figure out wtf is going on, fix all the little things that need fixing and fine tune things and see what I can do.

[GLHNSLHT2]

a Shelby Charger with 15psi and those mods should be a 13 second car EASY. O2 code doesn't matter at WOT. Charge temp sensor unplugged probably makes it run richer still as I think it assumes 70something degree's charge temp.

[Mysterio]

a Shelby Charger with 15psi and those mods should be a 13 second car EASY. O2 code doesn't matter at WOT. Charge temp sensor unplugged probably makes it run richer still as I think it assumes 70something degree's charge temp.


What could be some causes for it being so slow then? Obviously running STUPID rich like I am isn't helping anything. But you say in the 13s and I was NO WHERE NEAR that... So something obviously is wrong.

I think the engine may just be on it's way and not working as good as it should be. I was having a compression issue for a little while and suddenly fixed itself and the compression came back on the low cylinder. I'm going to rebuild the motor soon so we'll see what's going on once I yank it apart. I figured 15.2 was crappy for what's done to it. It feels like it pulls nice in 1st and 2nd, then 3rd kinda not so much, then 4th even less. It still pulls smooth in 3rd and 4th but not as hard as I would think it should at 15 lbs of boost.

[Keito]

What track?
You lose alot of power running rich.

[SpoolinGLH]

It still pulls smooth in 3rd and 4th but not as hard as I would think it should at 15 lbs of boost.


Check your cam timing and your ign timing... What Vac do you have at idle...You should def be in the 13's easy with a correct tune and setup with those parts....

[GLHS592]

a Shelby Charger with 15psi and those mods should be a 13 second car EASY. O2 code doesn't matter at WOT. Charge temp sensor unplugged probably makes it run richer still as I think it assumes 70something degree's charge temp.

I agree. Mine ran an 8.79 (roughly 13.50) on about 16 or 17 psi. That was with all junkyard parts. The only non factory parts in my setup were Super 60 injectors and an adjustable fpr.

[93sundance]

Check your cam timing and your ign timing... What Vac do you have at idle...You should def be in the 13's easy with a correct tune and setup with those parts....

What should vacuum be at idle? My friends charger is arond 18

[Directconnection]

That's about normal.

You check ignition timing? Should be at 12. 1st mark on the bellhousing is zero. Check cam timing as well... the proper way, which is find the actual TDC mark on the flywheel, then reference that the crank and int. shaft pulley's timing marks line up (but do adjust them, always go by the crank's tdc mark on flywheel) then look at cam timing. I use a mirror as the engine laying back makes it hard to check perfectly with the strut tower in the way. Then, pull out dist. and make sure the drive slot for the dist. in the oil pump is going 9 and 3 (parrellel to block)

You could also have a weeping headgasket like I had once as power was down, but not blowing any white smoke or making milky oil, either.

[Mysterio]

My vacuum at idle is around 17-18.

Ignition timing is 12*

I have been noticing that my overflow bottle is always empty and my radiator is a *little* low. So the headgasket Idea could be true.

I'm going to check cam timing and see what's going on with that.

I'm going to relocate my vac block so I can have the charge temp sensor plugged in and then adjust my fuel pressure so I'm not running so rich then maybe get the car dyno'd to confirm everything is running right and we'll see.

[Mysterio]

Now that I think about it I was having compression issues before where a cylinder was down to 70 compression. I was getting gas in my oil so I figured it was a piston ring. I ran some of that compression/ring rebuilder stuff in my oil and it actually fixed the problem. The compression still reads around 130 on all 4 cylinders now but maybe the motor is just not running at full strength anymore. I still have to check the cam timing, that was just food for thought.

[Directconnection]

Now that I think about it I was having compression issues before where a cylinder was down to 70 compression. I was getting gas in my oil so I figured it was a piston ring. I ran some of that compression/ring rebuilder stuff in my oil and it actually fixed the problem. The compression still reads around 130 on all 4 cylinders now but maybe the motor is just not running at full strength anymore. I still have to check the cam timing, that was just food for thought.

My VNT used about a quart every couple weeks. After wondering what was wrong, we put a leakdown tester on all the cylinders and found that the common #1 leaked. Once air pressure was up to about 100psi, coolant started rising up through the filler neck.

[Keito]

What track did you go to?

[Gaboon]

Just for comparison purposes, my charger ran 15.20's all day long, everything stock except for an MP logic module... That includes the stock 205 50 15 Goodyear eagles. This was a few years ago.....Maybe 18 years or so....Crap I'm old...

Something isn't right on your car. Hope you get it figured out.

[Mysterio]

What track did you go to?

We went to Norwalk


I'm going to check cam timing tomorrow. Change the vacuum block around & plug in the charge temp sensor. Probably check compression again just to be safe. And maybe buy a leakdown tester and give that a shot.

I'd have to say more than likely my motor is just tired, I mean. I know I'm running filthy rich but I can't imagine it would hurt me THAT badly. I still shoulda pulled better than stock numbers with everything I've got done, even if I'm running super rich. That's just not right.


I'm rebuilding the motor soon anyways, but I'd like to get an idea as to why I'm running so much weaker than I should be just for future reference, ya know.

[Keito]

Just to give you an idea how richness effects performance,
Stage 2 for an SRT 4 runs really rich, (10's) I know
a guy who added a map clamp to lean it out and
gained 40 hp on a dyno. No other changes except adjusting
the clamp. Also when you run too rich, you get cylinder
wash down, which wears a motor out fast.
Let me know if you are going back to Norwalk an time
soon, I live in Lorain.

[tinyturbo]

I have my fwd stage 5 turned down to 38 psi base and its still rich on the wideband.

[ShelGame]

FWIW, I added ~10% fuel to my cal and lost 1/2 sec of ET. I'm working on pulling the fuel back out (slowly) now...

[devlish]

do you have a AFPR?? after you rebuild your motor, GET ONE if you don't already. my FWD S5 is pretty rich, i needed to turn FP down quite a bit and even the butt-dyno picked up on that fuel adjustment.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'd get a wideband before an AFPR. If the cal doesn't have the right fueling at 55psi then SEND IT BACK! There should be no reason to have to buy something else when the calibration should be controlling it fine. A wideband will tell you the exact amount of fuel you're running.

[Ondonti]

weird, so that ring seal crap sorta worked for you. What did you use?

[Mysterio]

I have an AFPR and a wideband already. The wideband isn't hooked up since I just installed a 3'' exhaust and haven't welded the bung into the new exhaust yet. I don't mind turning the fuel pressure down, as apparently it's what most people say they have to do.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I know it's what most people end up doing but it's the wrong way to do it. It hurts the spray pattern of the injectors which hurts atomazation which hurts MPG and power.

[Ondonti]

and I dont think it will make a lick of a difference unless you drop it really low.

[Vigo]

and you shouldnt have to. GLHNSLHT2 is right on that.

[Directconnection]

I'd get a wideband before an AFPR. If the cal doesn't have the right fueling at 55psi then SEND IT BACK! There should be no reason to have to buy something else when the calibration should be controlling it fine. A wideband will tell you the exact amount of fuel you're running.


I disagree. An AFPR should be your 1st mod after exhaust. A 14 second car isn't on the ragged edge where a wideband (which is a great tuning device) is needed. Heck, Gus Mahon and Gary Donovan ran their #s with only a narrow band O2 monitor (which is probably not the greatest thing at that level). Actually, until 2 years ago.... everyone ran their great ets on just an O2 guage and EGT tuning.

The FWD cals are not specifically tuned fo your application, so it running rich out of the box is normal. A simple AFPR can dial it in from there, especially when there are no more custom tailored calibrations on the market anymore. I wish SOMEONE would step up to the plate for the community.


GLHNSLHT2... you are correct, but one needs to look at it from the poster's standpoint.

[Directconnection]

and I dont think it will make a lick of a difference unless you drop it really low.

Exactly. Gus Mahon used to run his +40s super low... I think he told me
25psi as he had extra injectors and the cratech as well.

My friend's car(s) all had the fwd S5 cal. Both had to drop fuel pressure. One of the cars which I worked on had the FP dropped to 49psi to make it work at the 20psi bost they were running.


I am sure there must be merit to his concerns of the spray pattern and all, but 55 down to high 40s, I just don't think it makes that much of an issue especially if Gus used to run 25 or so with no MPH issues as his Slugmobile used to pass CT emmisions testing with flying colors..

[GLHNSLHT2]

I disagree. An AFPR should be your 1st mod after exhaust. A 14 second car isn't on the ragged edge where a wideband (which is a great tuning device) is needed. Heck, Gus Mahon and Gary Donovan ran their #s with only a narrow band O2 monitor (which is probably not the greatest thing at that level). Actually, until 2 years ago.... everyone ran their great ets on just an O2 guage and EGT tuning.

It's a $130+ part on top of the big expensive cal you just bought. If the cal was right it's un-needed. And it's a bandaid, you're affecting your a/f across the board. If you have to turn it down so far then the ECU can't add enough fuel at idle or cruise to compensate just to run the correct a/f ratio's in boost. And for $70 or so more you could have a wideband to tell you exactly where you're at and a new O2 sensor to feed your ECU as well. With them being as cheap as they are these days there's no reason not to run one.



The FWD cals are not specifically tuned fo your application, so it running rich out of the box is normal. A simple AFPR can dial it in from there, especially when there are no more custom tailored calibrations on the market anymore. I wish SOMEONE would step up to the plate for the community.

With Dcal and chem and either a flashable smec, or a Ostrich emulator for the LM's and SBEC's there's NO reason EVERYONE shouldn't be able to custom tune their own ECU's. The day of having other people tune your car is gone. It's not hard and thanks to people like Shel-game and others there's 3 bar cals out there now that you can easily custom tune to your car.



GLHNSLHT2... you are correct, but one needs to look at it from the poster's standpoint.

I am looking at it from his standpoint. If I buy a product I want it to be right. With a custom cal from someone's computer miles away it's hard to get it right the 1st time but it should be expected if it's not it's coming back for a retune. And unless you can tell the cal person how much fuel you're running it's hard to do that. The AFPR is a old caveman method that worked good when we couldn't tune the ECU and have the ECU tell us when knock is accuring or watching a cheap scanner tell us how much timing is being pulled due to knock, and have relatively cheap accurate fuel gauges to tell us how much fuel we do or don't have.

It's a whole new ball-game these days and people need to see that. A user controlled/programmed ECU is a snap, if people want to still buy one they need to know it may not be right. But with a scanner and a WB02 and a way to tune your ECU you can have a perfectly dialed in tune for just a little more or maybe less than a ECU from a vendor.

[GLHNSLHT2]

Exactly. Gus Mahon used to run his +40s super low... I think he told me
25psi as he had extra injectors and the cratech as well.

My friend's car(s) all had the fwd S5 cal. Both had to drop fuel pressure. One of the cars which I worked on had the FP dropped to 49psi to make it work at the 20psi bost they were running.


I am sure there must be merit to his concerns of the spray pattern and all, but 55 down to high 40s, I just don't think it makes that much of an issue especially if Gus used to run 25 or so with no MPH issues as his Slugmobile used to pass CT emmisions testing with flying colors..


I'm not saying you won't pass emmisions running the injector at a low pressure. But it's hurting everything to some extent. I bet Gus' van would of easily been in the 12's if he had had the abilities we have now. Getting the fuel to atomize as much as possible mixes it with the air as good as possible which makes a more complete burn and more power. Which is one of the main reasons why FI is better than carbs. Also probably why F1 teams run up to 130 BAR yes that's B A R of pressure.

[cordes]

I'm not saying you won't pass emmisions running the injector at a low pressure. But it's hurting everything to some extent. I bet Gus' van would of easily been in the 12's if he had had the abilities we have now. Getting the fuel to atomize as much as possible mixes it with the air as good as possible which makes a more complete burn and more power. Which is one of the main reasons why FI is better than carbs. Also probably why F1 teams run up to 130 BAR yes that's B A R of pressure.


I don't doubt that everyone would have gone faster with what we know now. It's the old case of if I knew now, what I didn't know then.

However, I think that whether you are turning down the FP to the injectors or adjusting them with the cal, we are really using them for an application which they were never truly intended and they are compromised to an extent. It is really just two ways of doing the same thing, neither of which is ideal when talking about +40s and larger. It does however work, and work well either way. There is just no way around that. I think we are splitting hairs here.

I agree with you that the cal should be right and that he should not have to make any FP adjustments. Unfortunately this is just not a real world possibility. I have never sent a cal back for an adjustment for one reason; I have read other experiences in doing so. It always takes forever, and they are usually not right when they get them back anyway. I agree with you 100% that the age of purchasing cals has gone by, and that one must learn to do it themselves. There is really no reason not to, as it is truly simple.

I think the argument really boils down to ideal vs. how can the situation be remedied in an expedient manner. The middle ground is the path I choose.

[Mysterio]

I don't doubt that everyone would have gone faster with what we know now. It's the old case of if I knew now, what I didn't know then.

However, I think that whether you are turning down the FP to the injectors or adjusting them with the cal, we are really using them for an application which they were never truly intended and they are compromised to an extent. It is really just two ways of doing the same thing, neither of which is ideal when talking about +40s and larger. It does however work, and work well either way. There is just no way around that. I think we are splitting hairs here.

I agree with you that the cal should be right and that he should not have to make any FP adjustments. Unfortunately this is just not a real world possibility. I have never sent a cal back for an adjustment for one reason; I have read other experiences in doing so. It always takes forever, and they are usually not right when they get them back anyway. I agree with you 100% that the age of purchasing cals has gone by, and that one must learn to do it themselves. There is really no reason not to, as it is truly simple.

I think the argument really boils down to ideal vs. how can the situation be remedied in an expedient manner. The middle ground is the path I choose.

While everyone is on the idea of making your own cals.. Does anyone have any documentation on doing so? I'd like to read up on it and learn how so I can do it myself if need be.

[Directconnection]

GLH... to learn and tune your own cals, there's too much for most. I tried years ago, but the talk amongst others on chem and dcal was over my head as I know nothing about the computer jargon. I am spending countless hours on the hardware aspect of my engine, don't have time to spend on the software only to get in over my head.

What i would love to see is a special area here where they walk you through, begining to end. Takes alot of patience on both ends to pull it off.

[GLHNSLHT2]

If I can learn to do it anyone can. If you have a smec it's the easiest because you can flash the ECU directly from a laptop. The LM's and the SBEC's are a bit harder as you need to find someone to burn the bins onto the chip or learn to do it yourself. But with the Ostrich Emulator it might be as easy as the SMEC setup if you leave it in the car. If you don't want to leave it in the car then you need to go back and have the bin burnt to a chip. Hopefully Tkelly can pioneer this for us in the mainstream land. Paul at TU used an Emulator and Dcal but I'm sure he's not willing to tell us how to use the emulator with the different ECU's.

As far as moding the code it's easy as dragging some data points around and hitting save. Looking at the code it becomes easy to see what to mod as Shel-game has made some very nice 3 bar cals as a base to start from. There's also some nice 3 bar LM cals from Chem but they're a bit more complicated as they are a total rewrite of the cals. They're all a good place to start but require some modification for each car. My own I had to add fuel to the part throttle curve and take about 10% from the WOT table. I advanced the spark as much as I could get away with without inducing knock retard. Starting with these base cals and just playing with them a bit should easily get you started. With a wideband and scanner it's as easy as a couple hours in the afternoon and 1/4 tank of fuel and you can have the a/f and spark curves dialed in to wherever you want.

[Ondonti]

I'm not saying you won't pass emmisions running the injector at a low pressure. But it's hurting everything to some extent. I bet Gus' van would of easily been in the 12's if he had had the abilities we have now. Getting the fuel to atomize as much as possible mixes it with the air as good as possible which makes a more complete burn and more power. Which is one of the main reasons why FI is better than carbs. Also probably why F1 teams run up to 130 BAR yes that's B A R of pressure.

The actual performance difference between 55 psi and 30psi is just about nothing. That is the point we are trying to make.

My car got the best mileage ever running 31.5psi base pressure on bigger injectors.

Increased base fuel pressure would have made ZERO difference in the performance of Gus's vehicle's. The only difference would be the more exact tuning.

[cordes]

While everyone is on the idea of making your own cals.. Does anyone have any documentation on doing so? I'd like to read up on it and learn how so I can do it myself if need be.

As stated earlier, if I can do it anyone can. I still haven't the foggiest what is going on with much of the custom cal business. However many people have worked very hard so that I don't have to. Chem2 is about as easy as it gets, and it is 100% free. You can go to either of the sites in my sig and see cal info. On my site there is a guide to burning the chips for either an LM or an SBEC, and www.moparchem.com has a ton of information as to how to make the cal itself.

Give it a try and you won't be disappointed.