HELP! Crank problems

[BlueBaron]

Ok lets review.

Car is an '87 LeBaron. Engine is a common block. Engine builder was told to make a 2.5 setup, so we'll assume it's a 2.5 crank in there.

I was going to keep as much of the '87 parts as I could, so the engine originaly had square tooth gears etc. That didn't work as the crank pulley didn't line up with other pulleys. Remedy was to put '89 gears and pulleys on from my '89 TBI LeBaron.

The crank gear doesn't fit!
Please tell me all I need to do is find an '89 T1 engine, pull it's crank gear, and all will be well??

The new engine had an '87 square tooth gear, with four bolt holes for the pulley. I tried to mount an '89 5 bolt gear, but the inside diameter is much bigger than the end of my current crank.

[SoCalCSX]

I have a forged CB crank with a square tooth gear on it, I beleive the snout was machined so it would fit.

[BlueBaron]

What's your setup?
Do you have a Common Block?

[SoCalCSX]

It's a 90 cb.

[Aries_Turbo]

86-88 2.5L tbi gear?

Brian

[BlueBaron]

Well to the machining idea... my engine guy said he wouldn't have done that without talking to me first. He'd have called me to say "the '87 hardware won't work with this engine".

Now you have a CB with '87 style gear. So esentially the setup I had. Do you're pulleys all line up? My crank pulley was about an 1/8" to far from the block. It looked like all my belts would pop off

--

Brian, are you asking or suggesting?

[SoCalCSX]

Everything lined up before the teardown. It's all torn down right now so I can't be of too much help, but IIRC all the pulleys and gears are 88. If it helps here is this pic before I pulled it apart....
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j182/LowFourDoor/Picture033.jpg

[BlueBaron]

So you have a square tooth gear that has 5 bolt holes?

[SoCalCSX]

Yes, it's an 88 crank gear. Also, looking at my crank pulley bolts they look like the 89 and later style not the "star" looking ones that I usually see on the 88 crank pulley. The crank pulley could be an 89+, sorry if that adds to the confusion:banghead:

[BlueBaron]

Well I have a CB. And I have all my '87 pulleys. I also have an '89 crank pulley. So I guess I'll look into the crank gear off an '88 turbo car.

Thanks for the info.

[22mopar]

Well I have a CB. And I have all my '87 pulleys. I also have an '89 crank pulley. So I guess I'll look into the crank gear off an '88 turbo car.

Thanks for the info.

appearantly you didn't see the statement 86-88 TBI 2.5, there is NO pre 1989 2.2 crank sprocket that will fit the 2.5 snout!!!!

[BlueBaron]

Ok thanks for the help guys. I located an 88 TBI to take a gear from.

Now, how about timing belt? Do I need a "2.5 tall deck square tooth" belt?
All I have right now is a 2.2 square, and a 2.5TBI round.

[BlueBaron]

Ok lets add to that last question.

Do I need the '88 TBI cam and intermediate gears too? Or are my '87 parts fine?

I know my '87 FSM says the difference between 2.2 and 2.5 is an offset for the chain on the balance shafts. I'm not using balance shafts, but is it an issue still?

[22mopar]

Ok lets add to that last question.

Do I need the '88 TBI cam and intermediate gears too? Or are my '87 parts fine?

I know my '87 FSM says the difference between 2.2 and 2.5 is an offset for the chain on the balance shafts. I'm not using balance shafts, but is it an issue still?

every 1988 engine I've worked on has been a round tooth belt. so therefore, you must have round tooth sprockets on all shafts and the corresponding belt. additionally the belt you use must correspond to the block and sprocket type. unless you are using a tall block 2.5 engine, you would use a 2.2 or common block belt.

[TopDollar69]

Let me clear something up. 86-87 2.5L tall deck 2.5L has a square tooth belt and gears. 88 tall deck 2.5L has round tooth gears. They are the same engine, just different gears. It's confusing because an 88 2.2L has square tooth gears and belt. It almost sounds like your engine builder put a tall deck crank in a common block. Its possible, as it will fit, but the snout will be different, niether early 2.2L, or common block gears will work on a tall deck crank.If this is in fact what he did, you will most likely have other issues with pistons and rods as well. I would pull the pan off and get the casting numbers off the crank. We can cross them and let you know what you have. Also get the numbers off the block to be safe.

[turbovanman²]

every 1988 engine I've worked on has been a round tooth belt. so therefore, you must have round tooth sprockets on all shafts and the corresponding belt. additionally the belt you use must correspond to the block and sprocket type. unless you are using a tall block 2.5 engine, you would use a 2.2 or common block belt.


88 2.2's are square tooth.

[BlueBaron]

Ok ready for this climatic ending to my dilema?

All 2.2 and 2.5 engines have pulleys that don't line up.

This whole situation started when I was putting my water pump in. I noticed the pulley didn't sit perfectly inline with the main crank pulley. It was off by about an 1/8". So I put shims in. But when I put the alternator on, it was off too. Or rather, as I discovered, it seems the crank pulley is too far out in comparison to the other pulleys. So researching I went. Trying to figure out what was wrong and how. Using different parts from different years seemed to be a good guess.
So I'm at the wreckers today to get the '88 gear set to try on my car. Well first off, I forgot the special sockets for the crank pulley bolts. So I pulled the timing cover to see it has the same gears as the '89 (both TBI in this case). I look over at an '86 to see what it has. Of course it's the same as the '87 parts I have. In these cars, the belts are gone so I can see the alignment of the pulleys better. They are all off by about an 1/8" !!! This turns out to be something normal. I guess I'm just having a perfectionist moment, thinking they'd design these parts to line up. Obviously my fears of belts walking off are unfounded.

So thanks everyone for trying to help me out. And for letting me waist your time. Almost as much as I have my own. Now I'm off to reinstall the '87 gears and reset the belt... That was all setup about 2 months ago.
:banghead:

PS: For those who look at their own cars to challenge my misallignment theory... They don't look so bad when the belts are on. Only when they are off and you can eyeball the grooves and peaks in the pulleys.

[BlueBaron]

Did I say ending?? I must have lied.

As the car sits, it has:
'89 common block
'87 2.2 squaretooth gears.
'87 pulleys, including 4 bolt crank.
http://thebluebaron.homestead.com/files/parts.jpg

There is no way the alt belt will stay on, with the offset between the crank and waterpump pulleys. Till I turn the pump pulley backward. I was also able to make the alternator mount a little further out. It still doesn't like up even to the crank, but I think it'd be ok.
Until of course, I went to put the idler for the A/C on. It hits the waterpump pulley, as it's further out than it should be.

I was comparing to a Daytona that's in the same shop. I know they told me he has the full Super60 package on it. So that means the crank is supposed to be from the S60 kit. So does that mean an '87 turbo gear would fit it, or an '89 TBI gear?

All I know for sure, is that he has a 5 bolt square tooth crank gear.

SO...
Can anyone identify my crank from the above pic? FireBaron90 noticed the three holes where the balance shaft chain gear would go?
And what cars would have a 5 bolt squaretooth gear?

[TopDollar69]

88 2.2L turbo and TBI had a square tooth 5 bolt crank gear. Be careful with that 2.5L TBI round tooth cam gear, as it's different than the turbo cam gears.

[Turbodave]

I was comparing to a Daytona that's in the same shop. I know they told me he has the full Super60 package on it. So that means the crank is supposed to be from the S60 kit. So does that mean an '87 turbo gear would fit it, or an '89 TBI gear?

All I know for sure, is that he has a 5 bolt square tooth crank gear.

SO...
Can anyone identify my crank from the above pic? FireBaron90 noticed the three holes where the balance shaft chain gear would go?
And what cars would have a 5 bolt squaretooth gear?

To the best of my knowledge there was never a special super-60 crankshaft, the Super 60 package didn't touch the shortblock. So whatever year the Daytona is, it's probably got the crank from that year. If it's an 88 Daytona it would have a 5bolt square tooth sprocket on it.

Your crank does look like a 2.5 crank, evidenced by the balance shaft sprocket holes. But I'm not sure beyond that what year or engine it would have come out of. Are you able to get any measurements off the snout of the crank? I will probably be up at my storage barn tomorrow and could compare them to what I've got on hand, which should be at least one of every type of crank you could get in a 2.2/2.5.

[BlueBaron]

Well my crank takes my '87 T1 gear no problem. And my '89 TBI gear has a bigger hole and isn't near fitting right.

Here is how I have things right now, and I might be able to go with it.

Square tooth gears are on, with '87 pulleys and water pump.
I turned the pulley for the pump around, to bring it out, and closer to lining up with the crank pulley. This then hit the idler for the A/C belt. But with about 1/8" worth of shimming, that clears.
I also worked the alternator so it's about 1/8" further to the passenger side. I noticed the pulley on the '89 alternator stuck out further, but the pulley won't come off my 120A that was in the '87 setup to begin with.

So with things in place, it looks like the belts will work and stay on. I'm thinking worst case now, is that they rub enough to wear out early. I'll just keep a set of spare belts with me.

[TopDollar69]

I still think you have tall deck 2.5L crank shaft. Could you post the casting numbers so I can see what crank you have?

[BlueBaron]

Without pulling my oil pan (which also means pulling the water pump)

I have this number found on the crank in a picture.
427321

It uses an 8 bolt flywheel btw

Now what would it mean if I did have the tall deck crank?

[TopDollar69]

I cant seem to find any info on that number. The balance shaft gear holes mean it can only be one of three cranks though. It has to be either a 2.5L tall deck, 2.5L Common Block, or a 90 2.2L TIV. Since its obviously not a forged crank, that eliminates the 2.2L. I took these pictures of a 90 2.5L TI crank I have, it looks the same but the snout looks thicker on the end. Can you get me the OD measurement on the outer part of the snout? I have a 2.5L tall deck, but it's a complete engine so I dont really want to tear it apart. I did notice the CB crank actually has 2.5L cast into the crank.
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/new_pics_067.jpg
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/photopost/data/500/medium/new_pics_066.jpg

[TopDollar69]

All of the tall deck 2.5Ls use 8 bolt flywheels.

[Turbodave]

It does sound like you have a tall deck 2.5 crank in there. It should be pretty much the same as common block 2.5 crank except for around the front seal area. Looking up an 86 crank pulley and there are different part#'s for 2.2 and 2.5, both square tooth. I do have an 86 2.5 Tall deck shortblock that I just pulled out of my Lebaron Vert, so if you need the crank sprocket off that let me know.

[BlueBaron]

What's the difference between a tall deck crank and CB crank?
Is it the number of teeth?

[Turbodave]

The # of teeth on the sprocket should be the same.

The only difference that I know of between a common block 2.5 crank and a tall deck 2.5 crank is the front snout of the crank, thus the problems your having and why we're pretty confident you've got a tall deck crank in your engine.

[BlueBaron]

For what it's worth, I'm using the '87 turbo gear. It's a 23mm ID with 20 teeth.

[Turbodave]

Ean, learned something this afternnon while putting my 86 Lebaron back together. Car was originally a 2.5 TBI, but it's getting a 2.2TBI. I grabbed the first 4-bolt crank sprocket I saw on the garage floor and tried to bolt it up, noticed it was hitting the timing cover when I tightened it up, then I looked at it and saw "2.5" stamped on it. Pulled it back off and found the other one that was originally on this 2.2, there is a noticeable difference in the spacing between where the pulley bolts into the crank sprocket and the location of the drive belts.

The 2.2 pulley puts the belts about 1/2" farther away from the block than the 2.5 pulley would. I assume this is to accommodate for the different length crank snouts.

So what I'm trying to say is that I'm pretty sure a 86-87 4bolt 2.5 talldeck crank pulley will put things back where they need to be on your engine. And I just so happen to have one sitting here, if you want to send me your address and cover shipping it's yours. Or I could bring it to SDAC for you.

I took pictures of the difference between the two pulleys and I'll post the later.

[BlueBaron]

Cool, thanks for the info.

I was just posting in another thread when your PM came in... I won't have the LeBaron done in time for SDAC.

So I'd appreciate if I could get that gear from you in person.
Need anything that I can bring to you?

[Turbodave]

Can't think of anything I need from you Ean, but I'm always willing to trade worthless tall deck 2.5 parts for Canadian beer :thumb:

I'll try my best to remember to bring the pulley to SDAC, but you may want to shoot me a PM a few days before as a reminder.