PDA

View Full Version : died comin home



fast4popper
05-15-2007, 06:02 PM
Hey you all, kinda a newbie to the site. but not to Dodge FWD turbos. anyway I was coming home tonight after work and pullin in the driveway it died. went to restart and nothing, just cranked. the timing belt is still spining, its gettin fuel to the rail, but no spark. I tested spark at the end of the plug wire with the old screw driver test to ground and no luck. any ideas?? Thanks all and I look forward to more fun on here!!

fast4popper
05-15-2007, 06:03 PM
shooooot, should tell you what it is I guess. 92 IROC R/T. bout 82000 miles on the ticker... sorry. thanks again

turbovanmanČ
05-15-2007, 06:17 PM
Any codes? turn the key on and off 3 times and the check engine light will flash the codes.

fast4popper
05-15-2007, 06:18 PM
12 61 36 25

thats what I get out of it... any ideas?

turbovanmanČ
05-15-2007, 06:49 PM
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarticles.php?do=article&articleid=30

Maybe recheck the codes, they seem a bit off. They should be in order also, IE smallest to largest.

fast4popper
05-15-2007, 09:52 PM
I double checked em, I got 12, 61, 36, 15.

12 is right cause the battery has been disconnected, 15 is right cause the speed sensor is wiggin out, now 61 and 36 are stumping me.

also the tach has been intermittent for some time, could that signal bad coil? I mean the tach would work, then not work, I would hit bumps and it would come and go... any ideas? Thanks again!!

Murphy
05-16-2007, 01:22 AM
not only are they out of order, but your not getting 55(end of codes)

ShelbyTurbo
05-16-2007, 01:38 AM
I would put an educated guess at the crank sensor, though I have no idea where it is located on a TIII, other than its going to be somewhere on the trans because it picks off of a reluctor wheel on the flywheel I think. Anybody thats more familiar with TIII's can correct me. I know a dead cranksensor for some vehicles can cause a no reading on a tac, as well as a no start with no spark. Will the car start after cooling off? I've seen more than one GM cranksensor work untill the car warms up and it conks out.

shelby zed
05-16-2007, 01:53 AM
36 is map sensor isnt it? i thaught the codes went smallest to biggest?

fast4popper
05-16-2007, 09:35 AM
You are right I am am not getting 55 end of codes, actually I am getting it, just not putting it up here cause I figured we all knew that was the end of the codes.

the way I listed them is the way I got them out of the car. is there another way to get them besides, key on - off - on - off - on? I swear to god this is the order I get them in.

not only am I getting no spark, I get no "ignition" lead at the coil pack. no 12 volt reading anywhere on the 3 wires there. I know that the black with gray stripe is the tach signal, I assume that other 2 are power and ground and I am not reading any 12 volts anywhere with ign on? it also leads me to think that crank sensor is done.

any other ideas? also how can I check the crank sensor with a Digital Multimeter? or does it need to go in for diagnostics on that? Thanks again guys!!

shelby zed
05-16-2007, 11:01 AM
does it turn on, like when you turn the key does it act like the battery is disconnected or is it only sparkl?

fast4popper
05-16-2007, 11:11 AM
everything clicks and turns over like normal, just no fire.

man I cant believe the help I am getting on this. I been on other sites for FWD mopars but when the T111 site went down I stopped following it and just drove the car. Thanks you all for helping a newbie!!

Tony Hanna
05-16-2007, 01:35 PM
You are right I am am not getting 55 end of codes, actually I am getting it, just not putting it up here cause I figured we all knew that was the end of the codes.

the way I listed them is the way I got them out of the car. is there another way to get them besides, key on - off - on - off - on? I swear to god this is the order I get them in.

not only am I getting no spark, I get no "ignition" lead at the coil pack. no 12 volt reading anywhere on the 3 wires there. I know that the black with gray stripe is the tach signal, I assume that other 2 are power and ground and I am not reading any 12 volts anywhere with ign on? it also leads me to think that crank sensor is done.

any other ideas? also how can I check the crank sensor with a Digital Multimeter? or does it need to go in for diagnostics on that? Thanks again guys!!

Try this: unplug the power connector to the coil pack and put a test light on the green/black wire. Ground the other end of the test light. Now have somebody switch the key from off to run. The test light should light up for approx. 3 seconds and then go out. Now have your helper crank the engine while you watch the test light. If it lights and then goes out when the key is first turned on, but doesn't light while cranking, then your problem is most likely a bad crank sensor.

To test the crank sensor with a multimeter, backprobe the gray/black wire at the sensor plug and ground your other test lead to the negative battery terminal. while cranking the engine, you should see the voltage switch between 0.3 and 5.0 volts. If the voltage stays steady while cranking, then you definately have a bad sensor.

Crank sensors run between $150-$200 for a replacement, but if you're handy with a soldering iron, there is a sensor that will work for $38. The details are here:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14330&highlight=crank+sensor

HTH,
Tony

Turbodave
05-16-2007, 01:51 PM
I would also look at the 02 sensor wiring. A common problem on TIII's is that the wiring gets hot either being too close to, or even rubbing against the turbo which causes the insulation to melt allowing the sensor to short to ground which usually results in a blown fusible link. That fusible link also feeds power for the fuel pump and ignition if I recall correctly.

fast4popper
05-16-2007, 03:05 PM
I apreciate the follow up guys. i went home on lunch and tested the ign wire at the coil. it does go to 12volts for a brief second then does not give me that reading again. this is leaving me to believe its the crank sensor. does any know where to find the wiring so I can test the sensor itself?

as for the o2 sensor wires, I fixed that about 2 years ago. rerouted it and got it away from the heat that was just starting to melt the loom.

Thanks again guys!!!!

Tony Hanna
05-16-2007, 04:21 PM
I apreciate the follow up guys. i went home on lunch and tested the ign wire at the coil. it does go to 12volts for a brief second then does not give me that reading again. this is leaving me to believe its the crank sensor. does any know where to find the wiring so I can test the sensor itself?

as for the o2 sensor wires, I fixed that about 2 years ago. rerouted it and got it away from the heat that was just starting to melt the loom.

Thanks again guys!!!!

The crank sensor is right under the throttlebody. It's next to impossible to see without removing the throttlebody first. Locate the sensor and then follow the wires from the sensor back to where it plugs into the harness. Once you find the plug you can then test the sensor with a multimeter as I described in my previous post. You'll need to leave the sensor connected to the wiring harness and backprobe (shove the test probe into the connector alongside the wire).


To test the crank sensor with a multimeter, backprobe the gray/black wire at the sensor plug and ground your other test lead to the negative battery terminal. while cranking the engine, you should see the voltage switch between 0.3 and 5.0 volts. If the voltage stays steady while cranking, then you definately have a bad sensor.

fast4popper
05-18-2007, 01:09 PM
agagin thanks for the follow up. I am out of town right now on business. I will do this when i get home Sunday. I am thinking it is the crank sensor. does the tranny have to come out to replace this?

Tony Hanna
05-19-2007, 01:45 AM
agagin thanks for the follow up. I am out of town right now on business. I will do this when i get home Sunday. I am thinking it is the crank sensor. does the tranny have to come out to replace this?

Nope, you don't have to pull the trans. You can get right to it from under the hood with the throttle body and some of the intercooler plumbing out of the way. Should only take about 15 minutes or so.:thumb:

fast4popper
05-19-2007, 10:43 PM
well I made it home, tested the crank sensor, it is sitting at .3 volts during crank. am I right in assuming bad sensor? and how reliable is this "modded sensor"? I am not against spending the cash for a Mopar part if it is more reliable. again thanks for the help!! I was totally thinking it was between the trans and motor....

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 12:50 AM
well I made it home, tested the crank sensor, it is sitting at .3 volts during crank. am I right in assuming bad sensor? and how reliable is this "modded sensor"? I am not against spending the cash for a Mopar part if it is more reliable. again thanks for the help!! I was totally thinking it was between the trans and motor....

Yeah, if it's not switching from .03v to 5.0v and back again while you're cranking the engine, then it's definately a bad sensor.

As for reliability, I've had no problems at all out of my "converted" CSS40 sensor. Granted, the sensor has only been on the car since 5/6/07, but the first trip I made with it was a 1 1/2 hour drive from Marietta Ohio to Charleston West Virginia.:thumb:

The only reason the replacement sensor for the TIII is so expensive is because they're rare. The CSS40 sensor is alot cheaper because it's for the relatively common '93-'94 Chrysler 3.0 V6. Both sensors are electronically identical, and mount exactly the same way. The only differences are the connector, and the little flat spot on the body of the TIII sensor. If you follow my instructions in the other thread regarding wiring the sensor, and cutting the flat spot into the sensor body with a file, I expect it will serve you well for many thousands of miles.:)
Tony

fast4popper
05-20-2007, 01:08 AM
thanks man, I will get the part tomorrow and try it out. so I really am itching to get rid of this car. its served me REALLY well, but I have a new toy and this one deserves a new home...

are they still as "wanted" as they were? 92 IROC R/T... 82500 or so miles..

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 01:27 AM
thanks man, I will get the part tomorrow and try it out. so I really am itching to get rid of this car. its served me REALLY well, but I have a new toy and this one deserves a new home...

are they still as "wanted" as they were? 92 IROC R/T... 82500 or so miles..

You're welcome! If you have any trouble converting the sensor, send me a PM on here or give me a shout on Yahoo messenger. My screen name is tonyz2897.

I think the Iroc R/T is a relatively highly sought after car. Especially with under 100,000 miles. I'd dearly love to have one, but I've never seen one for sale locally. Just one Spirit R/T on a used car lot a few years ago, and the Spirit R/T I recently got off of Ebay.
Tony

fast4popper
05-20-2007, 01:32 AM
ANy idea of their worths anymore? Its relativly stock, I have dont a clutch and exhaust. it has a minor rear bumper crack that needs to be fixed but other than that I would say its an 8. I have nearly 10 Grand in Audio system in it that can either go or come out. any panel that I modified I have a replacement for. I would like to sell it as a whole. I would also include major documentation from the owner I bought it from 9 years ago. tons of new things, bout the only thing I can say it needs is struts. maybe a power lock motor on the passenger side. i aint lookin for anything set in stone, just a guess at what they are goin for.? its been a LOONG while since I have thought about sellin it. but I have an 04 Silverado SS that I am now majorly into with MAJOR mods. Procharger, suspension, tranny work, you know what I mean.... thanks again man!!

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 01:58 AM
I'm the wrong person to ask about car values. My idea of an expensive car is anything over about $1000 (had $790 in the Spirit and $200 in the Sundance:) ). You could look it up on the Kelly Blue Book and NADA websites to get a general idea, but a better option might be to keep an eye on Ebay to see if any in similar condition come up for auction and what they sell for. You could also search through the car for sale section here to get some ideas. My advice would be to keep it, but that's just me.:thumb:
Tony

GiliboY
05-20-2007, 01:15 PM
hello.. in some cars the ECU shows the fault code ordered by the time the fault happened, thats why sometimes the codes appear two times or not in order.

fast4popper
05-20-2007, 06:32 PM
well took the sensor out this afternoon, what a job that was, the thing crumbled apart on me. had to take a hammer and a chisel to get it out. went to advanced auto and they didnt have the part you listed and would have to order it. do you know what car that part comes out of? maybe I can try a different parts store. otherwise I am gonna just order a dodge piece since I have nothing left of mine to make the neccesary adjustments.

thanks for the help again, also, I ripped to vaccuum connectors taking them off. are these parts still avail? they are kinda F shaped. with connections at each end.

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 06:45 PM
well took the sensor out this afternoon, what a job that was, the thing crumbled apart on me. had to take a hammer and a chisel to get it out. went to advanced auto and they didnt have the part you listed and would have to order it. do you know what car that part comes out of? maybe I can try a different parts store. otherwise I am gonna just order a dodge piece since I have nothing left of mine to make the neccesary adjustments.

thanks for the help again, also, I ripped to vaccuum connectors taking them off. are these parts still avail? they are kinda F shaped. with connections at each end.

Try autozone or any other discount auto parts chain. The application should be for a '93-'94 Chrysler product with a 3.0 V6 (Daytona, Shadow, Lebaron, Caravan/Voyager, etc.) You might also be able to have them cross reference the GP Sorensen part # CSS40. Be sure to save what's left of your old sensor, as you'll need to cut the wires/plug off of it.:thumb:

The "F" piece on mine was dry rotted really badly. I couldn't find anything like it, so what I ended up doing was using a plastic vacuum "T" and vacuum hose to replace it.

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 07:05 PM
Here's a picture of the sensor I'm talking about so you can make sure they give you the right one.
http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/aap/gps/gps_css40_full.jpg

Here's a list of cars the sensor fits:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductGuide.aspx?mfrcode=GPS&mfrpartnumber=CSS40

Tony Hanna
05-20-2007, 07:16 PM
Found it at Autozone as well.
Wells SU360 $38.99
Says "normally stocked at your local store".

fast4popper
05-21-2007, 12:47 AM
Dude you rock!!!!! thanks again for your help. i'll get the part tomorrow and see what happens!

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 10:51 AM
Did you get the new sensor in it yet? Just curious how it worked out for you...

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 10:56 AM
the sensor is on order from Dodge. they said bout a week or so. also the price they gave me is 212$... I dont have a problem paying that, but is there a way to get some sort of discount? I will let you know how things work out. I do trust your alternate part info, but my piece literally crumbled into pieces. I have nothing as a reference to get a different part to fit.

Thanks again man!!

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 12:41 PM
the sensor is on order from Dodge. they said bout a week or so. also the price they gave me is 212$... I dont have a problem paying that, but is there a way to get some sort of discount? I will let you know how things work out. I do trust your alternate part info, but my piece literally crumbled into pieces. I have nothing as a reference to get a different part to fit.

Thanks again man!!

I wish You'd have told me that sooner. $212 is just crazy man. I'd see if you can get your money back.
I've got the original sensor from my car which is intact (just bad). I could post all the pictures you'd need. There's really nothing to it. For that matter, I'd even pull the converted CSS40 out of my car and take pictures of that too.
If you don't want to convert the sensor yourself, I could even convert one and ship it to you but it's increadibly easy to do yourself.

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 01:06 PM
tell you what. get me your address, I will send you a check for.. 75$ and my wiring. will that work? and you can ship it back to me? I havent paid yet.

let me know. I am aware that the wires on the outside might have to be switched, but thats cool. will that work? it'll save me 150bucks and make you some cash... plus I will prolly have it sooner

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 01:14 PM
ok, my local auto zone has one. I am gonna try it tonight. its only 40 bucks so what the hell. I just dont know what part you mean to "flatten"

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 01:23 PM
I'll get you a picture. Give me a little while to pull the throttlebody off of my car so I can get the sensor out.

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 01:51 PM
thanks man! I just hope this is the prob with the car, I am sure it is as the diagnosis pointed this way.

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 02:04 PM
Ok, here we go.
The black one is an original sensor. The gray one is the converted sensor. If you look at the ends of both sensors opposite where the wires attach, you'll see a little flat spot on the sensor body. This flat was there on the original, but on the new sensor I had to cut it in with a file. It's not very deep, 1/32" should do fine. You should be able to get the location right from the picture. To be honest, I'm not even sure that it's necessary, but I assumed it was for clearance, so I went ahead and cut it in.

The ugly glob of black stuff at the top of the converted sensor is just silicone. I covered the solder joints in it to prevent them from corroding or shorting out. If you're worried about appearance, you could probably do a better looking job with epoxy, but wait until after you've tested the sensor on the car incase you need to swap the wires around (the outside 2 are easy to accidently reverse).
Any other questions, just let me know and I'll walk you through the conversion as best I can.

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 03:06 PM
Here's a pic of how the wires go. Sorry for the crappy MSPaint diagram, but it should work ok for a visual reference.

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 03:41 PM
thats easy enough. I will get it done tonight for sure and let you know. you didnt have to go thru that just for me, but now these pics can be posted and used as a how too. great job man!! so I have a question, how is it that you seem to answer my questions before I get them out of my mouth? I mean you usually answer me within like ten mins. are you on here 24/7? :)

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 03:58 PM
thats easy enough. I will get it done tonight for sure and let you know. you didnt have to go thru that just for me, but now these pics can be posted and used as a how too. great job man!! so I have a question, how is it that you seem to answer my questions before I get them out of my mouth? I mean you usually answer me within like ten mins. are you on here 24/7? :)

It's no problem. I should have taken the pictures when I converted the sensor originally, but I had just bought the car and was excited to hear it run.:o

I'm out of work right now, so I spend most of the day tinkering with the car. It's pretty warm out, so I'll usually work for awhile and then come sit in the air conditioning for a little bit (I just came in from putting the car back together). I check the "subscribed threads" and "todays posts" links on here about everytime I come in.:thumb:
Well, it's time for me to head back out. Gotta pull the instrument cluster out of the Spirit and try to get the tach working properly.:)

fast4popper
05-23-2007, 07:47 PM
I bought the Wells one. didnt solder teh terminals, I just put some small spade terminals on them and tried it, no luck. switched the outside wires and still no luck. so I tested as we discused a while back for voltage, nothing has changed. the ign coil is not getting voltage during crank and the cranks sensor is not changing voltage either. bad sensor? wrong sensor? also I did not have to file the flat spot in, it fit right in to the hole. any other ideas? thanks again!

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 08:01 PM
Wow that's strange. The only other thing I can think of is the wiring between the crank sensor and the ECM. One of the wires should be a 5v supply from the ECM and the other should be the sensor signal to the ECM. If you're getting no or low voltage on the 5v supply, that could cause it. Let me run out to the car and verify which wire is which.

Edit: stupid question I know, but you are having someone crank the engine over while you check for voltage right? An easier way would be to test with the sensor out by passing something metal (flatblade screwdriver) in front of the sensor. If the wires are right, you should see the voltage drop when the screwdriver is close, and increase when you take it away. I may have that backward though.

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 08:17 PM
Ok, checking the wiring harness plug with the key on and sensor disconnected yielded these results. Approx 9v on the orange (center) wire, 5 volts on the gray/black wire, and 0 volts on the black/blue wire. Lets make sure you're getting the same results to rule out a possible wiring problem.

If you would like, PM me with your phone number. I have free long distance.:) It would probably be easier to troubleshoot this over the phone (especially if you have a cordless you can take to where the car is parked).

Tony Hanna
05-23-2007, 09:15 PM
Gotcha.
You might want to edit your post and delete your number though being that this is a publicly accessable forum. Maybe I'm just paranoid though.:)

fast4popper
06-07-2007, 04:15 PM
welp, looks as tho the timing belt snapped... at least it has a new crank sensor in it hey!? :) gonna do water pump and new bearings on the idler pullies too. I'll let you know how it turns out. should be done early next week.

Tony Hanna
06-07-2007, 04:19 PM
WOW! I didn't even think about a timing belt problem. I guess because the cover was long gone by the time I got my car and the belt's out there in the open.

fast4popper
06-07-2007, 11:04 PM
would this answer the prob of the NO fire issue?

Tony Hanna
06-07-2007, 11:29 PM
I'm not entirely sure but it would explain why I could see the voltage change while passing a screwdriver infront of the new sensor, but it wouldn't latch the ASD relay until I installed the sensor started cranking the engine.

fast4popper
06-07-2007, 11:33 PM
we'll see soon, he mentioned maybe tomorrow he could have it back together. I am gonna let him leave that "universal" cranks sensor in it and see if it runs. I hope he can find bearings for them pullies, they occasionaly squeal.

Tony Hanna
06-07-2007, 11:49 PM
The timing tensioner and idler pulleys? There's a trick for that. I think Jackson started a thread about it either here or on the other board. I'll see if I can find it and put up a link.

Tony Hanna
06-08-2007, 12:00 AM
Here it is:
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/135336-new-life-old-timing-belt-pulleys.html

If you're talking about the pulleys for the serpentine belt, then check out this thread:
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f40/123582-serpentine-belt-tensioner.html

fast4popper
06-15-2007, 12:35 PM
its alive!!! combo of the crank sensor, and the timin belt. we also did the bearings in the pullies and the water pump. I'm on my way to pick it up now.

Tony Hanna
06-15-2007, 12:47 PM
Awsome!
Did the modified sensor end up working out for you?