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View Full Version : Civic Turbo almost done!



glhs875
05-06-2007, 07:31 AM
I've been building a sleeved & bored H23/ turbo, etc ,etc, 96 Honda Civic hatch for a customer. He has put about $10,000 into the drivetrain with parts and labor so far! I hope for it to go on it's maiden voyage today! It has been a ton of work. It's definitely a hood full! It has a 50 trim stage 3/.63AR hybrid turbo on it, with a 3" down pipe and a Turbo Smart 38mm wastegate. It will build 7psi+ free revving, just holding the R's at around 3K and then going WOT before the rev limit which is set @ 7K for now! I've used a few TD parts on it (TD parts will make it run better :D ) one of which is a 2 bar map sensor. If he wants to set it up for 3 bar, that will be up to him, along with any possible parts carnage!! I have a feeling this thing is gonna be pretty wicked, and will easily be up there with the quickest 4cyl's around here if it all stays together! I'm not a Honda guy, but if I were to build a Honda for myself, it would be something like this one. I'm only setting the boost @ 7 to 10psi (lowest it will go) for it's break in, and to see how well everthing goes. He plans on getting the same alky kit I have so he can run more boost safely on pump gas. I figure he can run 12psi safely on pump gas without the alky. If he wants to run on the very edge with things, he will have to go there on his own!!! I'm setting it up mild! I picked up this job and some others from running my car at the track! My GLHS is my business card!! I just hope all goes well with it!

Ondonti
05-06-2007, 08:07 AM
what are you tuning it with?

Speedeuphoria
05-06-2007, 08:43 AM
Nice!, glad to hear your keeping busy and now we know why your car isnt done:p (like I have any room to talk).
Sounds like a fun car, keep us updated

glhs875
05-06-2007, 09:03 AM
what are you tuning it with?

For now, a Narrow band O2, and it has an MSD 6 BTM to pull timing with. The ECM is supposed to be programmed for 550cc injectors and a 2 bar map, and it seems to be, cars runs great, but hasn't been driven to confirm. I'm going to suggest that he go to the dyno so he can have the air /fuel ratio checked with a wide band O2, and to see if he needs to make any changes to any thing else. Like I said, I'm setting it up mild to start with! I really haven't done any tuning to it yet, that's happening today.

glhs875
05-06-2007, 09:11 AM
Nice!, glad to hear your keeping busy and now we know why your car isnt done:p (like I have any room to talk).
Sounds like a fun car, keep us updated

Yea, customers have been holding me up big time on my clunker! As far as I know, I have everything bought for my car. Head is at the machine shop for new guides,.015 milling, new valves, titanium retainers, and Comp springs. I have the external wastegate about halfway completed. The #4 coolant mod is done. I still have still have to rebuild the trans and put new brakes all the way around after I get the engine going again. Hopefully things will be going together more quickly real soon! And how's about getting your ride finished! :thumb:

Aries_Turbo
05-06-2007, 02:13 PM
Brian,

both CROME and Uberdata are free programs if the car is already socketed and it isnt that hard to tune a car with them. the best out there in my opinion is eCtune but it definitely isnt free unfortunately. www.pgmfi.org has access to these programs. BTW, if you decide to help him on the tune, watch out with CROME. it seems that something in the ECU that hasnt been fully figured out that limits the timing that you can add/subtract when on the high VTEC cam. so there is the possibility that you wouldnt be able to pull enough timing with the ECM alone. but you do have the BTM so it wouldnt be that much of a problem.

Brian

glhs875
05-06-2007, 11:55 PM
Brian,

both CROME and Uberdata are free programs if the car is already socketed and it isnt that hard to tune a car with them. the best out there in my opinion is eCtune but it definitely isnt free unfortunately. www.pgmfi.org has access to these programs. BTW, if you decide to help him on the tune, watch out with CROME. it seems that something in the ECU that hasnt been fully figured out that limits the timing that you can add/subtract when on the high VTEC cam. so there is the possibility that you wouldnt be able to pull enough timing with the ECM alone. but you do have the BTM so it wouldnt be that much of a problem.

Brian


Today uncovered some new car blues. The car has 3 bugs that I know of. 1- alternator (no biggy), 2- pass side axle problem (I think) possible biggy, 3- driveabilty problem (BIGGY). The car runs, idles, crusies, free revs great. But try and go anything past 1/2 throttle while driving and it falls on it's face. Can go WOT and it builds boost in neutral just fine all way to the rev limit. And it pulls great to rev limit with boost while driving at less than 1/2 throttle. Has me stumped!!! Plugs and O2 sensor are showing on the rich side of things. But the O2 volts are dropping when going past 1/2 throttle while driving. Air /fuel seems okay free revving. So I'm not sure there yet. Put a stock computer back in for a quick test, and it did basically the same. Pulled fuel pump and installed new 255L Walbro pump. No change. I'm just doing 1st gear blasts for now so as to have less of a chance/time to hurt anything until I get it figured out. I'm starting to think something isn't quite wired up right as far as sensors go. It's a 1996 car (OBD2) with a conversion harness to use a OBD1 ECU while retaining the cars OBD2 harness, which is common. But I'm not sold on all of that yet. I'm going to recheck the map, tps, dist. wiring and such. And also fuel pressure while driving. This kinda of stuff with Honda's is new to me, and a learning experience. The car feels like it will have alot of power when it's all sorted out though. That's if it doesn't blow up first. It would have been easier and better with a standalone I'm sure. But it looks like this is what I have to work with, at least for now.


Oh, engine is not VTEC. Just a 1992 H23 DOHC out of a Prelude

Stinkbox
05-07-2007, 12:30 AM
ive never heard off any honda progs that are setup for 2 bar maps. the stock maps are 1.8bar and ive seen progs that let you set up for the stock, 2.5 and 3 bar but no 2bar. try running the stock map.

glhs875
05-07-2007, 06:13 AM
ive never heard off any honda progs that are setup for 2 bar maps. the stock maps are 1.8bar and ive seen progs that let you set up for the stock, 2.5 and 3 bar but no 2bar. try running the stock map.


I don't know on that one. The ECM is supposed to be programmed for a 2 bar map. I'm trying find out some info on the ECM, like who did it, what was done etc. I'll try a stock one to see what happens. At the very worse it will be pig rich under boost. If it was set up for 2.5 bar. It should go real rich under boost with a 2bar map installed, because the max map voltage will be reached at a lower boost level than when using a 2.5 bar map sensor. And if it was set up to use a stock map sensor, it would be leaner under boost using a 2 bar map. But thanks, I will look into that.

Darkapollo
05-07-2007, 11:58 AM
My buddy tunes with CHROME. It allows you to add maps for higher BAR maps..

Aries_Turbo
05-07-2007, 05:15 PM
is the ecu chipped so you can take out the rom?

id head over to www.pgmfi.org and see what they have to say. with crome its pretty easy to setup a base map. I downloaded it the one day (its www.tunewithcrome.com) and then went over to www.pgmfi.org and read one of the newbie threads (there are a few good ones that describe step by step, how to set up the ecm to be chipped (if it isnt) and how to work with the turbo stuff.

hereis a good newbie thread.

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=12477

Brian

glhs875
05-08-2007, 07:13 AM
is the ecu chipped so you can take out the rom?

id head over to www.pgmfi.org and see what they have to say. with crome its pretty easy to setup a base map. I downloaded it the one day (its www.tunewithcrome.com) and then went over to www.pgmfi.org and read one of the newbie threads (there are a few good ones that describe step by step, how to set up the ecm to be chipped (if it isnt) and how to work with the turbo stuff.

hereis a good newbie thread.

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=12477

Brian



I may have to look into that. But maybe the ECU programming that's in it will be okay. It seems to be set up for a 2bar map and 550cc injectors like it is supposed to be. I tried a stock map and also a 3bar map sensor. The stock map was way off and I never even drove the car that way. The 3bar map ran pretty good and I feel it could work with some fuel pressure tuning (raising). And it might end up allowing for more fuel to run higher boost with after an increase in fuel pressure because it was leaning out the whole fuel curve somewhat even under vaucum and cruising. But I'm not giving him that sensor, he would have to purchase it. One big thing I found was that he has a Fidanzza Alum. flywheel, and I was setting the timing all wrong ( retarded about 15deg) from where I thought I was setting it at. I thought I was setting it to 36 to 38deg total under vacum, when it was actually around 21 to 22 deg total. And then on top of that, pull out timing under boost with the MSD BTM, and the timing was actually going to nearly 0 deg advance under boost which was where the base timing was actually set at. No wonder the car was falling on it's face!!! I have to double check the marks on the flywheel to confirm actual deg settings. But anyway, the car pulls great in 1st and 2nd gears ( haven't tried the higher gears, axle is vibrating at cruise and decel) until the boost creeps up to 20psi in the upper R's of second gear and then goes lean. It has a good 38mm wastegate, I would think that should be fine. But the exit on the header he bought has the exit tube at more than a 90 deg. angle to the exhaust flow path (more like a 120 deg angle). So the exhaust flow has to try and make a big sharp U turn to the wastegate. Bad for flow!!! So now I have to redo all of that crap. I'm shooting for a 120 deg angle following the exhaust flow path. This Honda engine actually has some torque, and spoolup with the 50 trim stage 3 turbo is excellent! At least I've made up some ground towards getting this thing out of my hair for awhile!

Aries_Turbo
05-08-2007, 07:46 PM
yeah I would say if the chip is for a 2-bar setup and has a decent base map for reduced timing in boost (seems like it might) then it will be ok for now.

if you plan on making any more of these, id learn to use crome cause i can see many shelling out 10g's for a motor/setup and then having a good solid tune. :)

I wouldnt mind learning the honda tuning stuff cause there are many folks out there willing to spend way more money than td guys for a fast, well-tuned setup.

Brian

glhs875
05-08-2007, 11:20 PM
yeah I would say if the chip is for a 2-bar setup and has a decent base map for reduced timing in boost (seems like it might) then it will be ok for now.

if you plan on making any more of these, id learn to use crome cause i can see many shelling out 10g's for a motor/setup and then having a good solid tune. :)

I wouldnt mind learning the honda tuning stuff cause there are many folks out there willing to spend way more money than td guys for a fast, well-tuned setup.

Brian

If I continue to work on these Honda's, I need to learn how to tune the ECU's. Or demand to go with some type of standalone or something similar. This isn't the first Honda I have turboed. But it is the first motor swap + turbo I have done. I thought of an overboost protection that might work. Get a Hobbs switch, that is normally closed instead of open, and then hook the 12V switched wire going to the MSD box through the Hobbs swtich. Set the Hobbs switch to the desired overboost pressure, and then if the boost ever reaches that point, it will kill the igniton. I would think it would work.

I only have one TD customer. There's alot more import guys in my area. Almost all the TD guys work on there own cars and really don't want anyone else to touch them. I know I'm that way with my TD. It seems very very few of the younger generation know how to do anything to a car. And they don't seem to even want to learn how too. But like you said, there willing to pay to have it done.

If I had the money to spare, I would build a few Turbo Neons to sell. So there would be more TD's running around here to torture the imports with! :thumb:

Speedeuphoria
05-09-2007, 10:11 AM
It seems very very few of the younger generation know how to do anything to a car. And they don't seem to even want to learn how too.

You got that right, my generation and younger are pretty worthless for the most part. There are a few that are top notch, some in the middle, then the rest are mostly ignorant/lazy.

Aries_Turbo
05-09-2007, 05:02 PM
well shoot, if you have a market for turbo honda work, definitely look into purchasing (ie working it into the cost of the car work) ECtune. it is the best for hondas right now. its like burning cals for our cars. it pretty much makes the stock ecu a standalone with full control.

there was a guy in the Rochester area a few weeks ago dyno tuning turbo hondas. I think he did like 8 in a day. used ECtune for all of them.

Brian

glhs875
05-13-2007, 05:50 PM
The Civic left the building! Redid the wastegate piping and that helped with the overboost issue. Tracked down the axle vibration to the driver side axle being too long. Moved the engine to the pass side as far as possible and almost totally cured it. He is looking into the possibility of an Accord halfshaft being shorter than the Prelude one we are using. If so, bingo! Got the engine at around 90% running right. Runs awesome at all throttle openings in 1st and 2nd gear. Revs out very quickly! And it does fine at part throttle in 3rd. But go WOT in 3rd, and I assume 4th and 5th, and the fuel is showing to go lean @ only 7psi, and after decel and when you come to a stop the engine is flooding out and will continue to flood out until the key is turned all the way off, and then when restarted the engine will clear up and run fine again. But only if the key is turned off! Absolutely CRAZY!!! He is going to get Hondata engine management which is programmable. And have it dyno tuned. That is a good move! The computer he bought was a waste of money. It ran identical to a bone stock computer. I could tell no difference at all, anywhere. I still have alot to learn about Honda electronics. I know I'm not too fond of them! All in all with a couple more bugs worked out, this is going to be a VERY FAST CAR!!! It's already is pretty darn quick! I may have to step up my own ride to keep up!! I can't have a customers car being faster than mine!! :D

Ondonti
05-13-2007, 08:47 PM
sounds like someone just sold him another stock computer.

Great choice on his part to go with hondata. Hopefully he has the self control to wait for it.

glhs875
05-14-2007, 11:00 AM
sounds like someone just sold him another stock computer.

Great choice on his part to go with hondata. Hopefully he has the self control to wait for it.


I think he will. He's pretty smart. He actually helped me alot on building the car so he could learn more about it. And I made him very aware of the problem and what could possibly happen if not corrected. That's exactly what I was thinking with the computer he bought!!

Speedeuphoria
05-14-2007, 02:53 PM
so when are you getting one:lol:

glhs875
05-14-2007, 04:15 PM
so when are you getting one:lol:


VERY FUNNY!!! I'll stick with Mopars forever! I would like to have one of the dual runner intakes this car had. I would like to look into using some of it on my TD. I changed how it originally works to where the butterflies that let the short runners operate won't open up until some boost is made. I could go alot further with the design and have work with rpm as well. But it was working great as is. Gave good bottom end grunt with a serious top end charge! The car spooled pretty much instantly and kept on trucking hard to the 7000rpm rev limit which needed to be a good deal higher!

Tony Hanna
05-14-2007, 05:19 PM
The Civic left the building! Redid the wastegate piping and that helped with the overboost issue. Tracked down the axle vibration to the driver side axle being too long. Moved the engine to the pass side as far as possible and almost totally cured it. He is looking into the possibility of an Accord halfshaft being shorter than the Prelude one we are using. If so, bingo! Got the engine at around 90% running right. Runs awesome at all throttle openings in 1st and 2nd gear. Revs out very quickly! And it does fine at part throttle in 3rd. But go WOT in 3rd, and I assume 4th and 5th, and the fuel is showing to go lean @ only 7psi, and after decel and when you come to a stop the engine is flooding out and will continue to flood out until the key is turned all the way off, and then when restarted the engine will clear up and run fine again. But only if the key is turned off! Absolutely CRAZY!!! He is going to get Hondata engine management which is programmable. And have it dyno tuned. That is a good move! The computer he bought was a waste of money. It ran identical to a bone stock computer. I could tell no difference at all, anywhere. I still have alot to learn about Honda electronics. I know I'm not too fond of them! All in all with a couple more bugs worked out, this is going to be a VERY FAST CAR!!! It's already is pretty darn quick! I may have to step up my own ride to keep up!! I can't have a customers car being faster than mine!! :D

If it was me, I think I'd run the stock ecm with a checkvalve on the map and a couple pressure switches/cold start injectors until the programmable setup gets there. That way boost could be tuned to the ammount of fuel and there would be less chance of damage from leanout. Probably not necessary if he knows to stay out of it until it's tuned right though.:)

Frank
05-14-2007, 06:02 PM
Ya but I think ignition is just as much of a concern on those setups.

Tony Hanna
05-14-2007, 06:43 PM
Ya but I think ignition is just as much of a concern on those setups.

Didn't he say there was already an MSD boost retard box on it?

Frank
05-14-2007, 08:06 PM
Ummm, NO!!! LOL! OPS!!!!

Tony Hanna
05-14-2007, 08:21 PM
lol :lol:

glhs875
05-15-2007, 07:20 AM
If it was me, I think I'd run the stock ecm with a checkvalve on the map and a couple pressure switches/cold start injectors until the programmable setup gets there. That way boost could be tuned to the ammount of fuel and there would be less chance of damage from leanout. Probably not necessary if he knows to stay out of it until it's tuned right though.:)

That doesn't work. It is running rich at cruise and a tendency to run lean in boost. Put in a bleed and it will be even leaner in boost. Already tried it. Aux. injectors could help but I don't want it set up that way for him (too complicated). And that's not going to stop the flooding out problem when bringing the car back to an idle after going WOT in the upper gears. That problem is a mind blower in it's self!!! The fuel curve is too far off, even with a stock cumputer. I still think some of the problem may be in the dist. wiring when it was converted from OBD2 to OBD1. I want to recheck that. Yes it has an MSD BTM, so the timing under boost is not an issue. I've got the BTM set to pull .75 deg of timing per pound of boost from a total timing setting of 36 deg in vacum. As much money as he has in this thing, it needs the right stuff to run the engine with. I don't want a cobbled up mess on it that will give problems and a be a royal pain to change the tune on in the future. He knows to stay out of the throttle until it's right. And he wants the baddest Honda in this area, and can easily have it if he goes the rest of the way with his combo. I've already felt the power potential @ only 10 to 12psi, and it's ALOT!! I honestly believe that with just that much boost it will run high 7's and 90+mph in the 1/8th with slicks! The car felt as strong as mine did at 20 psi and running low 8's @ 90mph in the 1/8th on pure street tires the last time I had it running. This Honda has ALOT more of an engine in a lighter car than my GLHS has/is.

glhs875
05-15-2007, 07:22 AM
Didn't he say there was already an MSD boost retard box on it?

YES I did!

glhs875
05-15-2007, 07:28 AM
Ya but I think ignition is just as much of a concern on those setups.

The ignition on these cars can be confusing. Especially when starting from scratch with the wiring. It has three sensors (cyl position, top dead center, crankshaft position, and an ICM/igniter) in the dist. More complicated than even a standalone!

Tony Hanna
05-15-2007, 02:31 PM
That doesn't work. It is running rich at cruise and a tendency to run lean in boost. Put in a bleed and it will be even leaner in boost. Already tried it. Aux. injectors could help but I don't want it set up that way for him (too complicated). And that's not going to stop the flooding out problem when bringing the car back to an idle after going WOT in the upper gears. That problem is a mind blower in it's self!!! The fuel curve is too far off, even with a stock cumputer. I still think some of the problem may be in the dist. wiring when it was converted from OBD2 to OBD1. I want to recheck that. Yes it has an MSD BTM, so the timing under boost is not an issue. I've got the BTM set to pull .75 deg of timing per pound of boost from a total timing setting of 36 deg in vacum. As much money as he has in this thing, it needs the right stuff to run the engine with. I don't want a cobbled up mess on it that will give problems and a be a royal pain to change the tune on in the future. He knows to stay out of the throttle until it's right. And he wants the baddest Honda in this area, and can easily have it if he goes the rest of the way with his combo. I've already felt the power potential @ only 10 to 12psi, and it's ALOT!! I honestly believe that with just that much boost it will run high 7's and 90+mph in the 1/8th with slicks! The car felt as strong as mine did at 20 psi and running low 8's @ 90mph in the 1/8th on pure street tires the last time I had it running. This Honda has ALOT more of an engine in a lighter car than my GLHS has/is.

Right, right. I wasn't advocating the map checkvalve (not bleed) and extra injectors as a permanent solution, just as a standby until the Hondata setup goes in. I've always been a big fan of getting something to run properly off-boost first, that way you've got a good foundation to start with for tuning once the boost is there. If there are other problems (electrical issues from the engine swap for example) that aren't related to running with boost, and then you try to tune for boost on top of that, things can get confusing really fast.

glhs875
05-17-2007, 09:26 PM
Got Hondata installed, and the guy at the dyno shop tuned it in for 10psi of boost, I wasn't there. That's all he safely had fuel for right now (need to upgrade). The installer is a Honda guy so I figure it's tuned pretty good. It made 290.83 WHP @ 6200rpm and 274.70 Wheel torque @ 4700rpm @ 10psi!! Looks like this thing will easily be a 400+WHP setup with the boost just in the low 20 psi range. The customer likes it! Now if it will live a long life I will be happy.

Tony Hanna
05-17-2007, 09:44 PM
Nice!

Aries_Turbo
05-17-2007, 09:49 PM
good deal. that sounds like a killer setup.

glhs875
05-17-2007, 09:59 PM
good deal. that sounds like a killer setup.


I fiqure it will run in the low 12's at the 10psi!!! A Civic hatch is pretty light. He already has around 80 to 100WHP more than he did with his old 1.6L (SOHC - non V-TEC) turbo engine, and I'm sure ALOT more torque, and he ran a 8.9 ET in the 1/8th with the 1.6L. I'm gonna have to step up the HP in my car for sure after the boost is raised on the Civic!!!

Whorse
05-18-2007, 12:37 AM
You guys aren't kidding about these guys throwing money at things. 2 integras showed up to the shop next to mine today and one guy asked if I could turbo his with parts I had lying around for 3 grand :o

Speedeuphoria
05-18-2007, 01:30 PM
Now if it will live a long life I will be happy.


Hey if the dyno guy or owner blows it up, then thats more business for you:thumb: