picking a WIDEBAND

[WOP'R]

I got an R/T and this time around i want to know the exact fuel ratio vs a crappy narrowband.

My questions are: Would a LM1 set up too much/not needed when still running the SBEC (getting a cal from fwd btw)

or would an LC1 be good? anyone have a nice digi gauge they would like to get rid of?

anyone ever run one of these gauges? the install instructions is odd saying that it can hook up to an LM1 or LC1 with the one wire!?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330107561145&rd=1&rd=1

anyone know anything about AEM? good/bad? Im leaning towards this option as the price seems really good compared to the rest

that just about covers it

[turbovanman²]

Search my name and Wideband, we have a 4-5 page thread on them, :nod:

[GLHNSLHT2]

it just runs off one of the programmable output wires off the LC-1. Not hard to do. Personally though I'd spend the extra $20 and get the DB gauge from Innovate themselves. And you can find the LC-1 on Ebay for $169. PM me if you need the seller's name. So for a total of $268 you can have a gauge and controller that work together with sensor. You can also get their nice XD-16 setup for $317 from the same seller.

[WOP'R]

the cheapest LC-1 ive found was for $179+ shipping
if you can give me the link that would be great

Question regarding the LM-1: how big is the display? would it be too hard to read while driving/tuning?
they're being sold really cheap off ebay right now and im tempted, but i would like to read the output without crashing:)

[GLHNSLHT2]

hmmm the price went up $10 on it. I'm seeing 179 as well. Still a decent deal.

[Clay]

I still cant make up my mind on which one to buy between those two!!!!!! Very aggravating!

[WOP'R]

SOO yeah im stock on either the LM-1 or the AEM unit.
i like the fact that i can remove the LM1 (which is going to be the most expensive thing in my car)
the desplay could be too small for me to make use of it when driving? NEED length and width of desplay please!
bulky? how big is it?

AEM is small and it would fit in my gauge pod. But if its stolen id be pissed
reading through some threads it turns out that the earlier models had issues with them

SOOO what do you all think?

[1FastCSX289]

I have an LM-1 and have no trouble reading the display while im driving. I like the fact that you can datalog pretty easily with some minor additions in hardware. Replacement sensors are only 40 bucks. Its been a good unit so far. I can speak for the other one though....

[quantum]

I just got one of the PLX Devices DM-5 + SM-AFR combos, and it seems to work well. Here is a link http://www.plxdevices.com/products/dm5/afrsmcombo/

[WOP'R]

thanks for the link quantum....

One thing i found to be interesting while asking this same question on another board. As it turns out the AE86 guys running innovate keep having the Bosch sensors crap out on them! My friend has already had two go and hes only been running it for 3 months or so and there have been many cases of this in that group. Anyone here having issues with the Bosch sensor?

[Will Martin]

I've never had an issue with mine. Thing is, people don't like to follow directions, but are quick to blame it on the product.

Two things the instructions say to do that I'd bet my bottom dollar that aren't followed. One: mount the sensor no lower than the three and nine o'clock position. This is so moisture doesn't damage the sensor. Two: let the sensor warm up BEFORE starting the car. On the Innovate (and maybe others) you have to let it warm up first, it does it's own diagnostic check THEN after you get a solid light, you start up the car. It's a heated sensor, takes all of 10-15 seconds.

Just by using it, I can probably think of several other ways it can be easily damaged. Using leaded fuel, running too rich, connecting it improperly.... Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky, but I've not had any issues with mine. Mine even worked AFTER sitting out in the street untouched for over 5 months through snow and rain. :) I'm about to go out in the garage and hook up my other one to my R/T!

[GLHNSLHT2]

The instructions say NOT to let the sensor warm up before starting the car. Condensation in the pipes could blow against the hot sensor and the heat shock can damage the sensor.

[Will Martin]

I'm not trying to argue, and I don't know what wideband you're using, but mine doesn't say exactly what you're saying. This is a classic example of what I meant by people not properly reading instructions.

I have an Innovate LC-1 in my GLH and has worked flawlessly for me for the last year. I just installed an Innovate in my R/T XD-16 yesterday. In no place on the manual does it state NOT to let the sensor warm up before starting the car. This is an actual cut and paste from the LC-1 instructions:

"Do NOT install the Bung below the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position.
Condensation can form in the exhaust pipe and permanently damage the sensor.

6 o’clock is the absolute worst position to mount the sensor.
Wide band oxygen sensors – like the one shipped optionally with the LC-1
– are designed to work with unleaded gasoline. Using them with leaded gasoline will significantly reduce the lifespan of the sensor. The reduction is directly proportional to the metal content of the fuel. In most cases, a wide band sensor will provide accurate measurements somewhere between 50 hours and 500 hours with leaded fuel.

WHEN INSTALLED IN THE EXHAUST, THE OXYGEN SENSOR
MUST BE CONNECTED AND OPERATING WITH THE LC-1
WHENEVER THE CAR IS RUNNING. AN UN-POWERED OXYGEN
SENSOR WILL BE DAMAGED WHEN EXPOSED TO EXHAUST GAS.

The maximum temperature of the sensor at the bung (the sensor hexagon)
should not exceed 500 oC or 900 oF. If these temperatures are exceeded in your
application you should either install a copper heat sink (instructions below) or the Innovate Motorsports Heat-Sink Bung extender (HBX-1).
The bung extender is recommended for situations where airflow is restricted or
the encountered heat is higher than a heat sink can handle.

It is NOT a good idea to connect the LC-1 permanently to 12V and switch it on with a separate switch before the vehicle is started. Depending on the climate and the sensor position in the exhaust, condensation water can form in the exhaust pipes. This condensation water could then be blown by the exhaust stream against the hot sensor when the car is started. The resulting heat shock can permanently damage the sensor."

So your statement is a half truth. If you're not connecting it permanently to a 12V and switch it on with a separate switch before the vehicle is started, then you should be fine. That is why you do a free air calibration first. The system "learns" a certain heat range then warms up to if after initial use.

In any case, I've personally never had any issues with the two Innovate products I have, and have not heard of any major issues with their products.

[GLHNSLHT2]

You have what I said printed in big bold red letters. DO NOT WARM THE SENSOR UP BEFORE STARTING THE CAR BY SWITCHING IT ON! Basically the Warm/hot sensor can get hit with cold condensation in the pipes upon startup which shock the sensor.

You stated in your 1st post TO let the sensor warm up before starting the car. But the instructions say "It is NOT a good idea" to do this. I installed my XD-16 setup oh about a month ago now.

Just trying to follow the instructions :)

[Will Martin]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, and what the instructions are saying. I put that in red to show you the WHOLE warning, you're only taking half the warning and using it as a basis for arguement.

What does it say before "DO NOT WARM THE SENSOR UP BEFORE STARTING THE CAR BY SWITCHING IT ON"? It says "It is NOT a good idea to connect the LC-1 permanently to 12V and switch it on with a separate switch." So with that said, as long as you don't have it connected WITH A SEPARATE SWITCH, then you won't shouldn't harm it. Mine is not connected that way, it comes on when I put the key in and turn the key. The instructions say not to have it connected to a continuous 12v power supply and turn it on with a switch.

In any case, I'll continue to use mine as I am and you do the same. It's working for the both of us so I'm happy with mine.

[Speedeuphoria]

Two: let the sensor warm up BEFORE starting the car. On the Innovate (and maybe others) you have to let it warm up first, it does it's own diagnostic check THEN after you get a solid light, you start up the car. It's a heated sensor, takes all of 10-15 seconds.


So how are you doing this?
Just turning the key forward for 10 sec 1st then start it?


In no place on the manual does it state NOT to let the sensor warm up before starting the car.
Right Here!
It is NOT a good idea to connect the LC-1 permanently to 12V and switch it on with a separate switch before the vehicle is started.

what exactly do you think this means, just what he said
This is the same as having a seperate switch and letting it heat up before use. Which is Not Recomended!

a "seperate switch" means nothing, if you turn the key forward to let the sensor heat up before starting the car, that the same as turning on a switch to heat up the sensor before starting the car

Now when you 1st hook it up, you have to do a heater calibration and a free air calibration(outside the exhaust w/ the car not started). After this just start your car like normal and the exhaust will clear the condensation out of the pipe and the sensor will heat up and be just fine(after all its just a VW sensor and you dont think all VW owners turn their key forward for 10-15 seconds before starting there cars).

[1FastCSX289]

Now when you 1st hook it up, you have to do a heater calibration and a free air calibration(outside the exhaust w/ the car not started). After this just start your car like normal and teh exhaust will clear teh condensation out of the pipe and the sensor will heat up and be just fine(after all its just a VW sensor and you dont think all VW owners turn their key forward for 10-15 seconds before starting there cars).


He's right. The sensor is a stock VW sensor. It should work like it does in a VW. The sensor doesnt come on before the car starts. Its starts warming after you start the car. That is how its intended to be used with the innovate set up. I start the car and then immediately turn the sensor on.

[Will Martin]

If it works for you the way you run it, then fine, same goes for me. I'm not here to take away from WOP'Rs original posts, and to take this off topic.

My sensor is working just fine, doing it the way I've been doing it. Before buying this particular one, I did a bit of research and found some people having issues straight out the box, with several of the same sensors. I actually got this from someone who had been having "issues" with the several sensors going bad on his application. He picked this up from someone that did it this way because of similar issues. This is the only reason I've run it like this and it's worked so far. If I've been doing it "wrong" all this time, it's still working for me. GLHNSLHT2 and Speedeuphoria you're right, I stand corrected.

WOP'R stated that he'd heard of people having issues, and a friend had 2 go bad in 3 months or so. Mine's working fine and I'll see how the one in my R/T holds up after I'm done modding.

[WOP'R]

i havent been to this thread in a while, and didnt notice it becoming into an argument. Almost all of my threads have turned into an argument...i must have a gift:)

anyways i just went ahead and bought the PLX combo kit:thumb:

simple to use, install and direct plug'n'play. and the price wasnt half bad:nod:

[Will Martin]

Well I posted incorrect information, I'm man enough to say I'm wrong, won't be the first, definitely not the last. I thought I read something that wasn't true and was proved wrong, although I also said people don't follow directions, I'm one as well! lol We're all adults and should handle ourselves accordingly. This isn't the "other" site. ;) Plus, you're a big trouble maker so it's to be expected all your threads end like this. :lol:

[devlish]

so i'm getting ready to install my Innovate XD16, and what i'm reading is to NOT let the sensor warm up first. how do you start the car, then turn on the sensor? hook up a switch to the accesory, then once the car is running, flip the switch on right away?

also, how do you log RPMs? or cant you? it has some analog accessory hookups, but to me... the instructions are a tad confusing overall. such as the part that reads: "the blue, white, and green wires should be grounded to the same grounding source... (but) the blue wire should be wired seperate from the white and green wires to avoid analog ground noise" so how do you wire them to the same source, yet wire them seperately? lastly, how does the plug come apart (or doesn't it) to get it into the cab without cutting a hole large enough for the whole plug. am i missing something?

[GLHNSLHT2]

I wired mine into the ignition on source. Just don't let it sit there for 30 seconds before you start the car. Turn it to on then start soon as the pump primes :)

As for the wires i.e. don't wire them into the same eyelet when hooking them to ground. You can have two eyelet's at the ground but not all the ends together. That's how I did it and it seems to be working fine.

I assume you're talking about the plug on the end of the Sensor?? I'm not sure how to get it apart even though it's a GM style weather pack plug. I didn't want to destroy it trying to take it apart. I mounted my LC-1 to the top of the tranny mount bracket on the frame. My sensor is in the 11oclock position at the 1st small bend after the turbo looking from the back of the car towards the front. It just barely reaches. I can get it out with a 22mm wrench from behind the kmember and get to my exhaust pipe to SV bolts just fine :) If you figure out how to get it apart let me know :) The serial cables are plenty long enough to go through a grommet in the firewall and to your gauges.

[Austrian Dodge]

i hooked up my XD-16 to the ignition switch, works like a charm and never had a problem!

[lametec]

It would probably be a good idea to wire it to the ASD relay. That way of you leave the key in the on position, the sensor won't stay on unless the engine is running.

[GLHNSLHT2]

hmmm that might be a good idea.

[Aries_Turbo]

i wouldnt take the power directly from the ASD output though. that might take too much current that normally would be sent to the fuel pump/coil and cause other troubles. id try having the ASD circuit input trigger another relay that is specific to the wideband.

Brian

[1FastCSX289]

It would probably be a good idea to wire it to the ASD relay. That way of you leave the key in the on position, the sensor won't stay on unless the engine is running.

Doesnt really hurt anything to have it on with the engine off though. Its not having it on when the engine is running. Ive left mine on accidentally for 2 hours while the car wasnt running. Didnt even drain the battery.

[GLHNSLHT2]

also you don't want it hot if the engine hasn't been running and you fire up the engine. Condensation that forms in the exhaust could then be blown against the hot sensor on start and F it up. Paraphrased from the instruction manual :)