Cryo Treatment

[Whorse]

I've seen this brought up before but I don't know much at all about it.

I read on a somewhat sketchy article that machining and then cryo-treating stock engine internals, and even your head, is cheaper, and equally if not more effective than upgrading to forged parts and having them machined/ported.

How exactly does this process work and is it actually as effective as some people claim? Specifically, how do the parts handle heat?

[Holley]

There's some info about this on Turbos Unleashed, its sales patter but fills in alot of the blanks. Havn't heard of anyone doing destruction testing on the piston coatings etc, my guess would be coated pistons arn't suitable for street use, cause if it cooks you're going to end up with bits of ceramic coming off, whereas a racecar will get its internals inspected frequently etc.

[cordes]

I have heard nothing but good things about it. I don't know if they would be as strong as forged afterward, but it sounds like it makes a huge difference.

I believe it basically works by getting the part so cold that the molicules are very close together. They then allow it to come back up to room temperature in a slow and controled manner. Once this is donel, they say that the molicules stay closer together if you will, thereby making the part more dense/stronger.

Someone jump in if I am wrong here, but that is how I have had it explained to me by several people.

[Holley]

oh, I was thinking of the ceramic coating ... ignore my last post then :D

[Chris W]

There's some info about this on Turbos Unleashed, its sales patter but fills in alot of the blanks. Havn't heard of anyone doing destruction testing on the piston coatings etc, my guess would be coated pistons arn't suitable for street use, cause if it cooks you're going to end up with bits of ceramic coming off, whereas a racecar will get its internals inspected frequently etc.

The coating used on our thermal coated products is the same that is used in commercial jet aircraft. We have never seen it flake or cook off since it is applied using flame spray technology.

Chris-TU

[Holley]

Hi Chris, nice to see you on here :) I've not had the pleasure of ordering from you yet ... money is earmarked for next year though, lol!

I'd be interested to hear any feedback about using the coating on engine internals in engines used on the street (ie. generally lower temperatures, higher mileages). While I don't think I'll be building anything that warrants it there's a few people here who are running un-intercooled procharger setups on big block V8s, and they appear to often melt pistons while trying to get the carburation right (no engine sensors, no EGT etc, strictly low tech stuff).

[BigAl]

I did a little perusing the web and found a few articles on the subject.

http://www.300below.com/site/flatout-apr04.html
http://www.300below.com/site/ntpapuller.html
http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/motorsport-prijune98.htm

[Whorse]

Very informative thanks. Seems reasonably priced as well, which is a bonus.

While it sounds like they're catering to race applications, it seems like it might be a decent idea to consider in almost any engine overhaul, especially for a high use vehicle like a daily driver. If it's as good as 300below claims it to be, might be able to get an extra 50 000 or 100 000 extra kilometers reliably out of a rebuilt engine.

Thoughts?

[Ondonti]

Im wondering if Cryo treating would fix a head that has gone soft......If it cant, then Im going to doubt a lot of the supposed benifits that people are claiming.

Being more wear resistent is probably good enough for most people to still want to try it out.

[87csx2.4]

I did a little perusing the web and found a few articles on the subject.

http://www.300below.com/site/flatout-apr04.html
http://www.300below.com/site/ntpapuller.html
http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/motorsport-prijune98.htmVery good info Im sending all the internals of my trans to be cryo treated this winter.I think this will be very beneficial for the spider gears and pin because of the friction,if it makes tooling last 200 to 400 percent longer it should help the friction on these gears.

[Frank]

Im wondering if Cryo treating would fix a head that has gone soft......If it cant, then Im going to doubt a lot of the supposed benifits that people are claiming.

Being more wear resistent is probably good enough for most people to still want to try it out.

Do some research on metalergy... you will be supprised what you find. Just because it is still aluminum doesnt mean it still has the same characteristics of aluminum. As you do heat cycles, etc, you will find that the molecular bonds change. There are other molecular changes.

So to place a stipulation that can't be meet in alot of cases, doesnt mean that it doesn't work.


Frank

[Whorse]

Is this similar to the concept of magnetizing a metal rod by aligning the electrons using a strong magnet on it, except using extreme temperature changes, or more like compressing something so that it's packed so much that when the pressure is released, it won't re-expand to the same form it was in before?

[Frank]

Those are similar examples of changing molecular bonds, but without more research, I dont know if those are the same types of changes. But you got an idea.

Its like when you weld something. Depending the application and type of metal, you have to re aneal it so that the molecular bonds near the welds reform.


Frank

[altered7151]

If I remember correctly from my metalurgy class, they cyro process basically rearranges the crystal structure of the metal to create a better bond between them, to create a stonger metal. Basically the same concept as a forging metal, the crystal structure is tighter. But I also seem to remember there being a problem of the material becoming more brittle after the process. I'd have to do some research on that though. I would imagine it probably wouldn't be a good idea for something like pistons, were the rings see alot of shock from detonation.

[MOPAR2YA]

We recently started offering cryo treating and everything weve seen has ben positive. Altered is right in his discription, I explain it like a piece of wood how the strength is with the grain. Its stronger one way of the grain vs the other, same with cryo treating. It will certainly increase the durability of a part quite a bit and is cost effective. You we can do a head, block whatever you need. Just send us a email on the lonewolfperformance.com contact form.

[Whorse]

I've read on one site that you have to do machining first if getting cryo treatment. I think the metals are still malleable afterwards, but they don't retain as much of a memory as they would prior to treatement.

This is all just from reading of course. Anyone have experience to share?

[mech1nxh]

Do some research on metalergy... you will be supprised what you find. Just because it is still aluminum doesnt mean it still has the same characteristics of aluminum. As you do heat cycles, etc, you will find that the molecular bonds change. There are other molecular changes.

So to place a stipulation that can't be meet in alot of cases, doesnt mean that it doesn't work.


Frank

a little deep, but maybe relevant....http://users.senet.com.au/~rowanb/chem/chembond.htm

gets a little dicey, depending on the metal basic virgin composition...
some inherent natural alloys must be machined BEFORE any treatement
because they dull titanium nitride coated tool bits AFTER treatment....
not cost effective....unless your the U.S. military ...and have there r/d
budget

[Directconnection]

a little deep, but maybe relevant....http://users.senet.com.au/~rowanb/chem/chembond.htm

gets a little dicey, depending on the metal basic virgin composition...
some inherent natural alloys must be machined BEFORE any treatement
because they dull titanium nitride coated tool bits AFTER treatment....
not cost effective....unless your the U.S. military ...and have there r/d
budget

Cryo treating sounds like a good plan, but if you know much about materials, you know that when a metal becomes harder, it then becomes more brittle. Last thing I would want is a more brittle piston or rod. So my question is... how can it increase strength which makes it harder, while still holding some form of elasticity?

[Directconnection]

Cryo treating sounds like a good plan, but if you know much about materials, you know that when a metal becomes harder, it then becomes more brittle. Last thing I would want is a more brittle piston or rod. So my question is... how can it increase strength which makes it harder, while still holding some form of elasticity?


Nobody answered my question, so I did a bit of reading from the previous links. They claim the part does not become hard, and continues to say what I mentioned about harder=brittle. Instead, it basically takes out all the stresses which can lead to warping via heat cycles and also breakage. Being the case.... parts should be re-machined afterwards if this is happening and molecules are re-aligning themselves. (my opinion... which we know blocks warp via heatcycling due to the stresses being relieved)

[Frank]

Interesting indeed!!!!

Thanks for the word!

[ssheen]

I dropped of a few things at a local cryo outfit earlier this week. I should be picking them up Thrusday. :D

[MOPAR2YA]

It doesnt make it harder in that sense. Harder steel like your thinking of has a hi capacity, but shatters once its limit is reached, more malable steel will bent and will bend with much lesser load than the harder steel. Think of it as a piece of wood and wood is much stronger when pressure is put on it with the grain vs against the grain.

[87csx2.4]

cryo treating like wallace said doesnt make the steel or aluminum harder at most 1 to 2 point on the rockwell scale.It stress relieves and as far as friction,these parts can last 3 to 4 times longer.

[87glhs232]

Some video links on 300 below's web site:

http://www.300below.com/site/video/index.html

Theres one video thats a spot from a show on Discovery Channel. It explains (a llittle) about the changes to the crystaline structures. Interesting.

I dropped them a line about pricing. I'd like to get motor AND tranny internals done.:thumb:

[ssheen]

I talked with 300 below on the phone for about an hour, last spring. They are very helpful. I just wish I was closer to them.

I picked up my treated plugs, wires and razors yesterday. The shave this morning was good!! :thumb: I put a set of cryoed plugs in my wife's car already. We will see what she says in a couple of days. I put the treated wires in mine Daytona. It may run a little smoother, but that is pretty subjective. I will be doing a baseline dyno soon, before a new head is put on. When I do that I will dyno my cryo plugs and the same plugs but non treated.

300 below told me he had more people had positive things to say about treating the plug wires than the plugs themselves.

Next I am getting my new head and cam treated, when I get them.

[jckrieger]

Interesting, they're only 100 miles from where I live! I might have to look into having a set of my pistons treated... though I'm not sure how aluminum alloys would react to the treatment.

[MOPAR2YA]

Cryo treating pistons will be just fine, just about any alloy will benefit a great deal from it. Especially parts like pistons and rods, gears, input shafts etc.

ssheen, being in AB cant you just leave the parts putside over night and let mother nature do the freeze for you......:p

[ssheen]

Usually we could, but this year we seem have missed winter and jumped right into spring. :D


ssheen, being in AB cant you just leave the parts putside over night and let mother nature do the freeze for you......:p

[Mario]

Here's another link for you: http://zr1parts.netfirms.com/CRYOGENIC/CRYO.html

[jckrieger]

Here's another link for you: http://zr1parts.netfirms.com/CRYOGENIC/CRYO.html

I don't know about that article, it said there are large gaps between the grains (crystals) in a non-stress relieved metal. When I looked at a piece of hot rolled 1018 steel at 100x magnification, I didn't see anything like that. Maybe they're trying to say the cryogenic treatment lowers dislocation density?

[ssheen]

a little off topic. I am extremely happy with cryoed razor blades I had done. My wife is too. Almost seems like the shave is closer. Definetly less cuts. So far it has been a month on the mach 3s and they are still going strong.

Did not notice anything with plugs or wires. Never dynoed it with non treated though.

[JuXsA]

I still think that its better to spend the money on a set of forged pistons then just getting the cast ones cryo'd. In fact with the power levels we are all making and with as strong as our internals are cryoing might be a waste of money. The only thing that I think would be worthwhile for us is getting the bearings cryo'd.

I want to hear more about the razors. How long are the blades lasting? How much did it cost you and where did you get it done? I have been thinking about getting a pack of blades cryo'd myself...

[ssheen]

So far my Mach 3 blades have lasted 6 weeks. In my case I had some other stuff done at the same time, so I am not sure the cost just for the blades. It was at local shop in the Edmonton area.

[CanadianDaytona]

how long they usually last scott?

[ssheen]

Maybe 3 to 4 weeks Chris.

[GLHSKEN]

So far my Mach 3 blades have lasted 6 weeks. In my case I had some other stuff done at the same time, so I am not sure the cost just for the blades. It was at local shop in the Edmonton area.

LOL... now that's Ingenuity!!!

[Directconnection]

I don't know about that article, it said there are large gaps between the grains (crystals) in a non-stress relieved metal. When I looked at a piece of hot rolled 1018 steel at 100x magnification, I didn't see anything like that. Maybe they're trying to say the cryogenic treatment lowers dislocation density?

If you ever machine 1018, you'll know it's full of stresses.

[jckrieger]

If you ever machine 1018, you'll know it's full of stresses.

Yes, but there is a difference between "gaps in the grains" and internal stress. That's what my point was in the above post.

[Bardo]

hey has anyont looked into this any more or tryed it yet to see if it really worked?

[ssheen]

My complete top end has been treated. The complete head (a part), intake, exhaust mani, turbo in pieces, head studs, and a bunch of little stuff. Hopefully on the car soon. Too many other changes to be able claim the cryo improved anything though.

[Boosted Baron]

They claim the part does not become hard, and continues to say what I mentioned about harder=brittle. Instead, it basically takes out all the stresses which can lead to warping via heat cycles and also breakage.


Maybe I'm totally missing the point of this, but has anyone considered cryo treating axle shafts? I've noticed that no one makes a stronger aftermarket alternative for our car. I'm also paranoid that I'll be breaking some when my Lebaron is finished and laying down over 300HP on a set of slicks.

[ssheen]

Wallace may have. I plan too when my WHP/Torque broken shafts warrant.