Cheap forged!

[stitus]

Anyone ever hear of Dana Liqui-Forged pistons? They are supposedly stronger than forged pistons and a hell of a lot cheaper. I have a 2.5 T1 intercooled that I've personally melted down twice, and was melted down once b4 I rebuilt it... after the second go around with mahle's, I decided to try these pistons from NAPA. They were the same price as a Mahle, and at the time I just needed something a little better. After having blown this motor twice, I had severe block damage, but had no choice but to put these new pistons in and go as the car was my daily driver. My car ALWAYS melted 3 and 4 when I pulled hard through 4th gear, just not enough fuel as it was bored .30 over.... 13psi with 5th injector and some mild porting done by myself. Now I drive my VNT as my daily driver, but before I parked the 2.5 with those Liqui-Forged pistons, I could pull hard all the way through 4th @ 7lights on my 10 light A/F guage @.@ Definately lean! Maybe I've found a cheap, phenominal alternative for our cars! If anyone has had any good/bad luck with these pistons, please let me know! :D

[cordes]

Forged will buy you some leeway, but if you have melted it multiple times running it lean on a narrow band sensor, I don't think pistons are your real problem.

[stitus]

I know lol, I absolutely agree wholeheartedly! I guess I was trying to say that I put these particluar pistons through hell, and they held up :D And as they were about $32 apiece, I was wondering if anyone had tried them with any success in tuning something with a little more grunt than my p.o.s., and if so, did they hold up to any tuning mistakes? Just saying this could be a real break for a guy who wants to build a decent motor with a lower budget :)

[turbovanman²]

Never heard of them. Any pics?

[mo' parts]

Never heard of them. Any pics?

^ditto!
also sounds like you did not have to have the block prepped for them? clearances??

[supercrackerbox]

Naturally, I am skeptical.

[tryingbe]

I could pull hard all the way through 4th @ 7lights on my 10 light A/F guage

Way to cook the pistons.

[stitus]

Unfortunately I don't have any pics as I had 2 days to put them back in the car. This was also several years ago before I had the internet as a decent reference. The block was not prepped for those particular pistons, the best I could do is get some compression numbers. You can read about the process they use to make them on Dana's site here: http://www.engineparts.com/products/RandD.html

I was hesitant to even post anything about them at all, but Kaleb thought it would be a good idea to see if anyone else had tried them. I am definately putting a new set in my next build. They will be fitted properly this time as I have a second vehicle to drive this time lol.

[johnl]

Read their squib. Sounds like they are cast, maybe some hybrid process. They don't say what the alloy is. That would tell the real story.

[Frank]

Exactly. You could even have forged, but them be worse the stock because the alloy compositions don't support it.

[turbovanman²]

Looks like they were designed for Diesel applications. I would say for a cheaper alternative, these would work great.

[puppet]

JPI TRANSPORTATION PRODUCTS, INC.
325 E. EISENHOWER PARKWAY ANN ARBOR MICHIGAN 48108
That's the maker's info.

[zin]

They are definitely cast, as it says on their web page. Their process seems to be some kind of injection molding, making for a better product (fewer gas bubbles) regardless of alloy, but still no substitute for a good forged piston. That being said, they may have their place, after all the factory saw fit to install cast pistons, and they lived (for the most part). I would like to hear from folks who have run them to see what their limits are.

[Rattlesnake]

The only diference is the high pressures during transition from liquid to solid of the part. This process compacts or make the molecules of the metal to be closer together resulting in a stronger piece throughout its entire area. It doesn't sound like a bad piece, but I want piece of mind.

Reinaldo Moloon

[mpgmike]

I have my machine shop looking into them. I'm intrigued.

Mike

[WVRampage]

They would be stronger than stock from the sounds of it,and at that price it would be crazy not to try them.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah but for the cheap turbododge guys that arent even looking for forged in the first place that are just going to pop in stock cast slugs and beat them again till they break, these look like they would be worth the 128$.

Brian

[mo' parts]

yeah but for the cheap turbododge guys that arent even looking for forged in the first place that are just going to pop in stock cast slugs and beat them again till they break, these look like they would be worth the 128$.

Brian

exactly^.
forged is going to be out of my budget for some time, unfortunately.
if these are in any way better/or can withstand more w/ a novice tuner than stock mahles, then i may spring for them if push comes to shove. im still curious to hear more, till then i keep plenty of back up mahles:)

[mo' parts]

I have my machine shop looking into them. I'm intrigued.

Mike

keep us informed:)

[spoolinhard]

I will attest as to these pistons holding out. We went out and toasted the car and they seemed to hold up, the rods are a different story.....
-Kaleb

[stitus]

Hellz yeah! That rocked! On a side note, the EGT's were reading the same as they did when I melted it down the other 2 times.... Sensor is mounted in the downpipe, and read about 1480-1500 every time I smoked them. When we took it out for its final run, I pulled from a dead stop all the way through 4th, shifted to 5th and let off...EGT's around 1490 and not a skip. And 5th injector was INACTIVE unlike the other 2 times I melted Mahles.

[mo' parts]

I will attest as to these pistons holding out. We went out and toasted the car and they seemed to hold up, the rods are a different story.....
-Kaleb

T1 or T2 engine?
or other??

[stitus]

2.5 '89 common block T1 with a Saab IC. Stock pump, injectors, bored .30", stock computer. Valves back cut and I cleaned up the head a little. Intake and Exhaust were both stock as well with a Mitsu turbo running 14psi.

[Vigo]

wait are you saying you modified the head and intercooled it and then ran it on stock exhaust?

other than that, if this pans out it could be one of the most significant threads on the forum. im eager to see how this one goes.

[stitus]

yeah, that's all poor college students can afford sometimes :P

[Dave]

yeah, that's all poor college students can afford sometimes :P

Here, here! I think I may have to build a second block for a back up with these puppies. Can only melt them, I suppose.

Why are we just now hearing of these pistons, though??

[Turbodave]

Has anyone got a Clevite part# for these pistons? I looked them up in their catalog and called my local Clevite dealer and neither could find a liqu-forged offering for the 2.2 or 2.5 chrysler engines.

All I could come up with hypereutectics for the 2.2 and regular cast for the 2.5 from clevite.

[stitus]

I purchased my set for my 2.5 3 years ago. I'm pulling the head off the motor sometime this weekend if I can stand the cold long enough. Should have a part number for you then. If not, I'll swing by the Napa store where I got them and have them look them up for me. As far as not knowing about them until now....well, I just figured I was always the LAST to know, so I didn't tell anyone else! LOL :D

[Orangetona]

This is extremely intresting.

I work at Napa, I can check for you guys. Ive personally never heard of them. I will check and get back to everyone.

Not to mention .030 over is the hardest piston to get through Napa or most any dealer as they are 'custom'.

[Orangetona]

Update, I cant tell you for sure if these are the 'liqui-forged' ones but heres a few part numbers for clevite.

#2242792 for an 89 common block 2.5L turbo

#2242349 for an 89 common block 2.2L turbo.

#2242347 for pre common block 2.5L NA

#2232349 for pre common block 2.2L NA

[Dave]

Awesome, thanks Mike. :thumb:

[Orangetona]

Also those are just your standard bore.

I believe to get a diff bore you put -.020 on the end or whatever size.

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah when searching on the net i got very few hits for Liqui-forged.... hopefully these are still available. id like some for when I redo my GTC's motor.

Brian

[Birddog]

Doing a little digging, so far I found that
2242349 Hyper.. Note 2.60″ dia. Head recess .190″ deep w/2 valve reliefs. Lock-rings included. Not destroked. Shallow Groove. Hypereutectic Turbo.

2242792 Cast.. Note Ricardo bowl head(bathtub:confused: )

2242347 Cast.. Note 2.64″ dia. Head recess .161″ deep. Non-turbo, non-EFI.

[Aries_Turbo]

doh!

so thats just the standard stuff

Brian

[Orangetona]

Hmm... Well I spent like 20 mins searching for anything other than standard and came up with nothing. We need a reciept!!

EDIT: Well I will speak with Clevite on monday when I get back to work and see if its still offered. I know someone else already tried but I might be able to talk to someone else who may know more. :thumb:

[stitus]

When I ordered these pistons I specifically told them that I DID NOT want anything 'hyper' tectic. He gave me the book, and he called them to verify that they weren't lightened with silicone or anything else that would turn into swiss cheese. I read all the literature I could find on them at that time. All I can say is these pistons took more abuse than a stock Mahle with zero changes in setup.

[Birddog]

Not doubting you at all. I'd like to know more about them just like everyone else here. The only listings I know of for liqui forged units are for tractors and heavy equipment.
All pistons are some % saturated silicone, it's not so much for lightness as it is strength.

[Mario]

Perhaps they were discontinued? Here's some for a Chevy that recently sold on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-1997-4-3-262-V6-CHEVROLET-NEW-FORGED-PISTONS-020_W0QQitemZ280073103612QQcmdZViewItem

[Orangetona]

I can keep a note of the part number that guy supplied for the 4.3L engine and it may help the guys at clevite figure out what exactly we are talking about. ;)

[Birddog]

224 2884 is Hypereutectic Dish recess .073″ deep w/4 valve reliefs

[Birddog]

Here's an abstract from an SAE paper that helps a little. It sounds like Liqui Forged is just a name variation of what they have below and basically a high strength cast piston. Need the alloy to figure out if it's Hyper or not though.

The technology for a new, high-strength piston material has been developed by using high-pressure, die-casting (HPDC) method, which had a rapid rate of solidification. This method allowed the amount of Ni added to be increased to 5.5 mass%, raising the fatigue strength of the new material at temperatures of 523 K or higher by a factor of 1.5 over that of a conventional material made by gravity die casting (GDC). In addition, application of vacuum to the die cavity and using additional pressure enabled quality exceeding that of conventional GDC pistons. Pistons made from the newly developed material decreased engine friction by 4.4% and increased fuel efficiency by 2.2% in engine bench testing.

[stitus]

Well, I went back to my small town Napa store today, and actually remembered to ask about these pistons.......it seems that when Federal-Mogul filed bankruptcy, TRW bought the tooling for the pistons who in turn sold the tooling to Probe, who as far as I can tell just LOVES to put silicone in EVERYTHING they offer :( Although they have the tooling, and are capable of special orders, I don't believe they have the patent for the Liqui-Forged process as obviously Clevite still uses it. I guess I was just in the right place at the wrong time...what a bummer! Wish I was a part of the online community at that time, maybe there would have been enough demand to merit keeping that tooling in Clevite's hands! (-.-)

[Birddog]

Clevite is owned by Mahle now. So ya never know.

All piston alloys have silicone in them. It's necessary to the composition, heat management, and wear capabilities of the alloy.
Cast(eutectic) has 7%-8% silicone, Hypereutectic has 15%-18% and forged can have anywhere from 11% to 15%

[Aries_Turbo]

do they (whoever owns the company now) still have that liqui-forged process around? I wonder if we or someone in a position of influence could have them make a liqui-forged line again or to replace the cast/hyper line that they have now.

Brian

[stitus]

The Process still exists, but the tooling for the pistons for our motors was sold. By the way......I pulled #4 piston out of my VERY lean running 2.5 after her final run through 4th AND 5th gear (wich previously melted #3 and #4 like clockwork with stock Mahles) and there was NO EVIDENCE OF MELTDOWN AT ALL. :D But I had spun a bearing and it banged around so hard that the wrist pin retainer clips failed, so my full set of these unique pistons are now useless :( I know we have a lot of guys from the top to the bottom that frequent this site, maybe someone could find a way to have them made again :) But as they say, you can sh#$ in one hand and wish in the other......