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View Full Version : Your experiences with DSM cars?



Tim
03-31-2007, 07:51 AM
I've been giving some thought lately to getting a DSM car (Eclipse, Talon), and I'd like to hear from anyone here who has experience with them. Good and bad things about them, maintenance and repair costs compared to Turbo Dodges, things like that.

8valves
03-31-2007, 11:31 AM
Lots of experience with them.

They are great to build if you can be smart. I would compare them to TD's quite similarly, except they're easier to go faster in for the same amount of money. The downside is that everyone gets addicted to AWD launches then bitches when they finally start breaking stuff.

Maintenance is key. If you can find one that was maintained well in it's life it should have lots left in it. My buddy Paul's car had 173,000 miles on it's longblock and ran 11.94@114 with a couple of bolt ons. Strong car with the RIGHT mods done and some very good driving with little care if something was going to break (1.77 60 on 14" snow tires).

Most have been used and abused by now, so expect to have failure items to replace and go through and clean up hack work before you start cranking on it.

It could either turn out to be a great experience or a terrible one. Either way you'll learn about cars and modding them very quickly. As they say, DSM's, turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1990!

TurboRon25
03-31-2007, 11:49 AM
Good: Stock parts DSM (esp 1G) vs Stock parts TD - the DSM is faster (better head, injectors about equal to our +20s, better BSFC).
-Turbo swap can be done in less than 1 hour.
-I really like the cal in those.
-tough motor

Bad: unless you are doing a tranny, turbo, or plug swap, they are a PITA to work on. Have fun with a head gasket or even a timing belt.
-interference motor.
-limits of mass air sensor.
-they have plenty of their own problems too, ie-Computers go bad from leaking capacitors.

The AWD is nice, esp for non-prepared surfaces, like street racing.

For what it's worth, I've been around them for a while and I like them but I won't own one.

Ron

Oh yeah, watch out for the 2G crank walk issue. THAT will ruin your day.

Whorse
03-31-2007, 12:07 PM
Maintenance is key. If you can find one that was maintained well in it's life it should have lots left in it.

I can't stress this enough. I have a co-worker with a 99 eclipse. He didn't change his oil for a long time, didn't do his timing belt, and never changed his filters. I nagged him about it and he just gave me a hard time because my car is cheap to work on so I wouldn't understand.

Last week he just got his car back from the shop after snapping the timing belt, siezing a valve to lost oil pressure, and breaking the cam. He managed to get used parts through the shop and the total was 2800 bucks.

4cfed
03-31-2007, 12:17 PM
DSM Definatly Second Motor.. like stated there not like our cars.. you snap a timing belt plan on replacing most of the valves and possible a piston or afew or all!... 1g center diffs are good for about 40 awd launches before they blow up... trans is a fortune to replace unless you get really lucky,

If you do deside to get one.. try to find one that bone stock, perferabbly owned by a older person

my buddy just picked up a 1g tsi awd automatic with 103k miles for agrand from some 60 year old guy (my buddy did exhaust on it and i still whip him with my shelby z with 13 psi and a ehaust

Whorse
03-31-2007, 12:21 PM
His eclipse was quick, but not that modified. Maybe 17psi, but it just didn't seem that fast when I drove it (auto). Handled really nice on the highway, but Mopar_Nutz' charger ate him up pretty good when it was running 14s, so not super fast.

gkcooper
03-31-2007, 12:25 PM
I completely overhauled a 1G DSM Talon. It is my father-in-laws car. It has the 4G63 NA engine and automatic. I pulled the entire interior and cleaned and SEM painted all the vinyl surfaces. Fixed all the little nick-nack crap clips, trime pieces, bulbs, etc in the interior.

The engine had 16 bent valves, scored pistons, broken rings, hacked wiring, etc.

I have twenty plus years experience working on Chryslers and GM products. Some Nissan too.

I have never cursed a car as much as this one. The designers had to have smoked crack. The crank journals are tiny, as well as everything else inside the "legendary" 4G motor. I laughed out loud when I was taking it apart. I know these things can make power, but why handicap yourself with very expensive parts, and lots and lots of tiny parts with LOTS of fasteners? It was a total pain in the --- to work on.

I did a timing belt on a Nissan Quest last night and it was cake compared to anything on the DSM. What a joke!

I would never, ever in good conciense recommend a DSM to anyone unless you are a very experienced mechanic with lots of tools, disposable income, and time.

On a one to ten scale I would, in all seriousness, give it a three.

I spent $1000 (and a tremendous amount of physical work) to get a running car that looks pretty good, runs good, wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a goat's ---, and is worth about $1500.

86Shelby
03-31-2007, 01:07 PM
Somebody! Please,

Donate
Some
Money

4cfed
03-31-2007, 01:22 PM
Somebody! Please,

Donate
Some
Money


LOLOLOLOL!! i have to reemmber that one

8valves
03-31-2007, 01:41 PM
The crank journals are tiny, as well as everything else inside the "legendary" 4G motor. I laughed out loud when I was taking it apart. I know these things can make power, but why handicap yourself with very expensive parts, and lots and lots of tiny parts with LOTS of fasteners? It was a total pain in the --- to work on.

I can agree with some of that, but it's awfully difficult to argue with an engine that has been powering some of the fastest 4 cylinder drag cars (not to mention the first 4 cylinder into the 6's), a whole slew of amazing rally cars, and street terrors for around 20 years.

R/T
04-01-2007, 09:39 PM
A few years back my oldest Son bought a used 91 Eclipse GS (NA) with 56,000 miles.

Nothing but bad luck with it.

Most every kind of problem there is, electrical, CV's etc...

And major problems, the 5 speed ground itself into dust. We fixed that, a week later he calls and says " My car won't move" What??? We have it towed home, and turns out the axle popped out of the trans. But wait - how can that happen??
Well, if the K member is CRACKED in half, that allows the axle to come out of the differential.

We weld that up, and the a few months later it starts handling funny - the mount for the panard bar *tore out of the trunk floor* giving the rear of the car a clown car kinda swing as it went around corners.

Finally we had enough, so we found him a $200 turbo LeBaron GTS so he had a depenable driver.....

That's my experience with DSM's :mad:

Shelbyz26
04-02-2007, 08:07 PM
wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a goat's ---, and is worth about $1500

Hahahaha....honest to God I lost it when I read that. And could not agree more. I bought a 1996 TSi AWD Talon in May of 2005. It had 140000 on the odo but seemed to be in good shape and the guy was a mechanic at a Ford garage and had all service records for the thing. (should have immediately been suspicious upon seeing he'd had to replace 9 wheel bearings @ 160 a pop but I was too excited that I was getting an AWD turbo 5 speed to care). Well fast forward 2 years and to this point I've replaced both rear struts (one of which ripped clean from its upper mount and beat the crap out of my wheelwell) replaced the entire fuel system, all 8 intake valves after it jumped time, all seals and bearings in the trans after it went, had to get a brand new transfer case from mitsu since mine decided to lock at 45mph due to the recalled seals I was unaware of, the e-brake setup is ridiculous and that went. On top of everything I struck two deer (which clearly has nothing to do with the car) and the lights and body panels to repair the totalled out to the nice sum of 3200 bucks. Also, as was stated before, the engineers who designed these things were without a doubt on mind altering substances...at least I hope so. All in all...yes they are great looking cars that can be great running cars but they are a huuuuuge hassle in my experience and I wouldn't recommend them as a daily driver. On a side note my younger brother has had nearly as much trouble with his 1991 GSX. Just my $.02

Matt

devlish
04-03-2007, 01:04 AM
i agree with some, and not with others. i've had my DSM for 10years now, and am finally selling due to buying a Lexus & 2 tds, just don't have room anymore and need the money. this started as a NA FWD car, but i did a complete motor/trans/ecu/harness swap a few years back for a total of about $1250, and it's a blast now with the turbo!! i recently upgraded to 550cc injectors, an Evo3 Big16G turbo, 12x3x24 FMIC, etc etc. the FWD still spins like crazy, but its a hella fun car to drive. i had an AWD for about 2-3 years that did give me some problems, but i can't complain... i beat the everloving piss out of that car on a daily basis (tons of AWD launches (don't believe the above mentioned 40 launches bulshit) passing cars in the ditch, curb hopping...) i beat on the car. AWD launches are great once you learn how to do them. you dont rev the motor and sidestep the clutch, you'd be lucky to get 40 that way. but if done correctly, you'll know it, and love it!! but it's hard on clutches. my friends and i have done clutch swaps on AWD cars in under 2hours, and FWD cars in 45mins. but then again, my friend is the midwests single largest supplier of DSM parts on ebay. he makes a good living off them. he also has my old AWD that now runs 10's, his DD runs 11-12's, his GFs run 12's, and he's got a few spares laying around the yard at all times.

they are a solid car if done properly. like any go-fast car... "Cheap, Fast, Reliable; Pick Two!"

i'd say go for it but plan to spend a few bucks on preventitive maintenance, and then have fun!

-Kurt
PM me if you wanna buy mine!

iTurbo
04-03-2007, 01:08 AM
I've only worked on one; a '91 AWD TSI. I replaced the stock turbocharger for a friend. Very easy job....hardest part was getting the oil filter off!

TurboEd
08-26-2007, 03:37 PM
Ive seen the both sides of theese cars, one friend of mine ran 22 psi an his talon and sold it 5 years after the car was mint! ran like a dream never broke

in the other hand ive seen alot alot alot of people braking theese like they were sunbirds i dunno .... i guess if you know what youre doing youll be in a fast car for a long time!

Vigo
08-26-2007, 07:41 PM
ive got a dsm nobody knows is a dsm.. 96 avenger :) not too bad to work on, and an all around good car IMO. other people have told me varying things about theirs but in general i like 2g dsms pretty well. id rather have a 420a than a 4g for parts prices reasons, tho.

RoadWarrior222
08-26-2007, 10:35 PM
Yeah, dunno what the prices are like, but have an idea from when I was looking for a car, saw a talon on a lot that has a lot of lower priced stuff, $750 on the windshield, and I asked about it, and the guy was like, "Sorry that one's just sold for full price to a wrecker in Toronto. And I thought then, wow, if wreckers are coming down from Toronto to buy cars off lots for parts....

nBALLS
08-26-2007, 11:16 PM
Ok, I don't fell like going terribly deep into this argument, but I sold all but one of my TMs because I prefer Mitsubishi. I like the sound, I like the AWD, I like the HUGE intake ports on the 1G 4G63. The fact that with the proper tune, and supporting mods, the stock bottom end can take 550HP (maybe throw in some ARP rod bolts, just to make sure).

YES the engine IS legendary, sounds like dude who said all the internals were small was working with a less beefy 7 bolt engine. Though the 6 bolt rods and mains are physically smaller than 2.2 stuff. BUT 550HP on stock internals explains itself.

Transmissions are not a MINT to replace, full overhaul done by Lucas English, who builds NICE DSM and EVO transmissions, for under $1K is quite reasonable.

They are easy to work on. Now the timing belt compared to a 2.2/2.5, yes it's more time consuming (not TOO much more), but it's simple and straight forward.

I've owned 4 of them, and last December found the one I've always wanted (since '99) a '91 Eclipse GSX. It has almost 220K on the ORIGINAL motor, it smokes a bit because of the valve stem seals, but otherwise runs VERY strong. Based on the butt dyno, and a not-so-great-launch-run at the track, it's a mid 14 sec car, with the only "mods" being a 2G exhaust manifold, hollowed out cat, and a G-Valve set to about 14psi. :dunno: Not too bad for a 220K Turbo car, that weighs 3200lbs.

k, that's all I can think of right now. :)

87 charger
01-10-2008, 10:08 PM
Ok, I don't fell like going terribly deep into this argument, but I sold all but one of my TMs because I prefer Mitsubishi. I like the sound, I like the AWD, I like the HUGE intake ports on the 1G 4G63. The fact that with the proper tune, and supporting mods, the stock bottom end can take 550HP (maybe throw in some ARP rod bolts, just to make sure).

YES the engine IS legendary, sounds like dude who said all the internals were small was working with a less beefy 7 bolt engine. Though the 6 bolt rods and mains are physically smaller than 2.2 stuff. BUT 550HP on stock internals explains itself.

Transmissions are not a MINT to replace, full overhaul done by Lucas English, who builds NICE DSM and EVO transmissions, for under $1K is quite reasonable.

They are easy to work on. Now the timing belt compared to a 2.2/2.5, yes it's more time consuming (not TOO much more), but it's simple and straight forward.

I've owned 4 of them, and last December found the one I've always wanted (since '99) a '91 Eclipse GSX. It has almost 220K on the ORIGINAL motor, it smokes a bit because of the valve stem seals, but otherwise runs VERY strong. Based on the butt dyno, and a not-so-great-launch-run at the track, it's a mid 14 sec car, with the only "mods" being a 2G exhaust manifold, hollowed out cat, and a G-Valve set to about 14psi. :dunno: Not too bad for a 220K Turbo car, that weighs 3200lbs.

k, that's all I can think of right now. :)


I know this is a old thread..BUT

Agreed. I loved my automatic 92 awd talon. If you go to you tube and type 0-60 in 3.99 thats my car with my brother driving it. The computers have issues,but can be fixed. The 91 and down awd rearend is weaker than the 92-94 and the transfer case on the 1 g had a recall on the seal. They can lock up and send you crashing! The oil sending unit studs can unscrew and dump all your oil out from behind the oil filter and you never know. They are like any car there is good and bad. I like my dodge cause I find parts easy. We had to order a transmission from japan last time for the talon! My brother owns a 91 awd and my old 92 awd. I like turbo dodges from a less work standpoint,but you can build a 9 sec daily driver awd!:thumb:

Polygon
01-11-2008, 04:01 AM
http://www.synapsepc.com/Hosting/Images/Funny/Crankwalk.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't help it. I've nothing more to add to this thread anyhow being I've never owned one short of a Sebring.

RoadWarrior222
01-11-2008, 01:35 PM
BTW our cars will pop axles out when the K-frame cracks too.

ShelbyTurbo
01-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Bad:
-they have plenty of their own problems too, ie-Computers go bad from leaking capacitors.


I'll seccond that, my coworker just had to replace the ECU on his Galant VR4, we had the ECU out and inspected all of the caps, and we couldn't see any damage, but the injector drivers were obviously flaky as the car would start, or not on a whim.

We ran through every thing we could think of, and tested everything on an oscilloscope. When the Injectors would work, you would see them fire on the scope, when they went away at random, you could see that too.

Stock ecu's are around 300 bucks, but he spent an extra 100 on a socketed version of the later style ECU's, and uses a different EEPROM for the larger EVO MAF that he just had to buy...

The car's freaking sweet though, it really needs a set of larger injectors, as it already has a bigger turbo, and 3in exhaust. He also really needs to get around to installing the EVO intercooler that he bought a few months ago too, the stock intercooler and piping looks like a sever bottle neck, Just the intercooler and piping alone would probably push his car too lean with the stock injectors.

Did I mention that its the super sleeper forest green color too? Makes me want to run out and buy a Spirit R/T to keep up with him LOL.

moparfreak
06-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Well I have owned at least 5 dsm's....but I only like the early ones-built '89-'91. The one I have currently is a 90 fwd turbo 5spd. Stock:injectors,fuel pump,intercooler and intercooler pipes,turbo,
My only upgrades are: plugs, wires, urethane mounts.
It has run 12.8 @ 113! I have beat the snot out of it for about 65,000 miles and I can't hurt anything but transmissions( I get them for 50 to 100 bux at junk yards or classifieds) my favorite dsm would be a 91 gsx white w/ white wheels 6bolt w/ 4bolt rear 5spd sunroof.
Granted you hear of the difficulties w/ dsm's frequently but that is usually cuz they are dumping their money into it and not realizing that minor tweaks will make it real quick for a daily driver/mostly stock car w/ good gas mileage to boot! Not as good as I have seen some of the turbo dodge cars get(ie..hypermiler turboron25) so if you want a car that will go fast with just doing the free mods...then it might be a great experience for you, if you want to mod everything on the car then I hope you have deep pockets cuz as soon as you change one thing, then another component does not want to work well with it! I love my dsm cuz I have run 12's with it for under 2000 dollars___remember the key to a good dsm experience---> get one that is well taken care of first and foremost! Jeremy

jckrieger
06-28-2008, 01:04 AM
My friend bought a 90-91 Talon TSI for $500. He got the car running be replacing the computer because it had a hole in it... then discovered it had a cylinder with no compression. He took the head off the car and it has sat that way for 3 months. They're good cars, but I think the transmissions are junk and they got abused to all hell. My friend had a reasonably low miles 1g Eclipse GS 5sp and the trans died out of nowhere. I've also seen 13-14 second FWD eclipses puke their transmissions at the track after a couple passes.