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View Full Version : rebuild questions needs answers ASAP!



WOP'R
03-07-2007, 11:22 PM
i need to decide what im going to do to my engine and now im asking for help because i keep changing my mind:mad:

for background ill be taking the head off due to a blown head gasket and wear on the cam lobes

Theres a few things that i know ill be doing such as...
pressure test and mill the head
Lonewolf S1 cam grind
Lonewolf exhaust mani port/coat
along with cryotreating and dry film lubing the cams and int shaft/oil pump gear.
head studs and cometic gasket

Now my question is, on top of that should i:
-buy titanium lash adjusters? mine are in good shape. Aside from the plastic breaking off what else may happen? (couldnt find down falls of the stock unit)

rebuild the head while its off? ie valve job, seals yadda yadda yadda? or just install the new cams and retainers?

get a 3 angle valve job done? How much HP would i expect from this alone?

and lastly what are your thoughts on cryotreating all the components in the head?

the reason im asking the above is because with that money saved i could get a cal written and/or buy adjustable cam gears

Fast4Ward
03-08-2007, 01:19 AM
oh the r/t stress....LOL
with the amount of $$ saved on the purchase dude you should be able overhaul the whole drivetrain:D

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 01:22 AM
hahaha arent you funny.

After my first project i told my self to keep it simple:)

Fast4Ward
03-08-2007, 01:24 AM
the new headache is hardly simple....td's spend more time off the road than on...lol

Lotashelbys
03-08-2007, 01:54 AM
I can help you out with most of those ?s. I would rather talk on the phone than type tho:thumb:

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 01:57 AM
No such thing as titanium lifters, you must mean titanium valve spring retainers and if you wait my impatient son, I'll have a cheaper alternative.
I am reusing my old lifters, you just have to be careful when you put it back together.

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 03:14 AM
No such thing as titanium lifters, you must mean titanium valve spring retainers and if you wait my impatient son, I'll have a cheaper alternative.
I am reusing my old lifters, you just have to be careful when you put it back together.

fwdperformance sells lifters that replace the plastic with titanium.

Not impatient, just like to plan ahead. the retainers were on the must buy list and there was no point in asking if i should get them....untell now:thumb:

care to sare the new product?

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 03:16 AM
I can help you out with most of those ?s. I would rather talk on the phone than type tho:thumb:


what do you mean by help out? as in you can cryo treat or less or share you knowledge?

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 04:41 AM
fwdperformance sells lifters that replace the plastic with titanium.

Not impatient, just like to plan ahead. the retainers were on the must buy list and there was no point in asking if i should get them....untell now:thumb:

care to sare the new product?

There not titanium, there steel. Your mixing them up with the valve spring retainers-


Name: 16V replacement lifter (single)
Part Number: FWD 43-0585
Description:
Replacement lifters for the t-3 lotus head. Price is for a single lifter. (BACK IN STOCK! but only a couple remaining, ETA on more March 07)
Price: $26.00

qty:




Name: 16V Replacement Lifters
Part Number: FWD 43-0199
Description:
Replacement lifters for the t-3 lotus head. Price is for a set of 16. (OUT OF STOCK!, ETA March 07)


Jackson has lots of knowledge he can share.

I told you already, I am coming up with valve springs so you dont' need to buy titanium retainers, :banghead:

Lotashelbys
03-08-2007, 12:26 PM
OK,if I were you I would definatly go with the titanuim retainers(unless Simon has a good cheaper alternative) I would get the cometic HG and the ARP studs(no questions there) and have the head milled(make sure its an RA 50 or smoother) If the valves are leaking I would go with a good 3-angle valve job(especially on the exhaust side as the intake is radious cut stock) Make sure that before you get it milled you have the stupid oil hole welded up thats on the drivers side rear corner next that head bolt hole! If your head dont already have alum core plugs get some. There are two ways to go about that:#1,screw them in finger tight and weld them in. #2, Torque them in using some ultra black Permatex for a little "cushion" to 60 In/LBs
As for lifters,I have re-used stock ones a few times with no problems. If some are missing the little plastic retainer I would find some good used one to replace those. Cindy has a stash of good used ones that you could get from her if need be. But, if you have the cash go with the improved INA units. Just be careful when you are pulling them out of the rockers you dont lose any of the lifter discs!
As for the cams LWP stage1s would be a nice upgrade. I have not run any of these yet but talking to Wallace it sounds like they are worth about 50 HP. Getting them cryoed while you are at it a a very good idea. That depends or the rest of you setup alot tho also.
As for your I-staft,get the newest version of one and get that cryoed as well. You are gonna want to put new bearings in also. Every time I have had a TIII pulled down the bearing is on its way out. If you have the whole motor out getting the block decked is a good idea when using s Cometic HG also. Anyhow,long enough for now hope this gave you some ideas:thumb:

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 01:50 PM
Make sure that before you get it milled you have the stupid oil hole welded up thats on the drivers side rear corner next that head bolt hole!

I saw Cliffs post on that, going to get it threaded and use a plug then it will be milled flat after my valve job, :thumb:

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 03:07 PM
OK,if I were you I would definatly go with the titanuim retainers(unless Simon has a good cheaper alternative) I would get the cometic HG and the ARP studs(no questions there) and have the head milled(make sure its an RA 50 or smoother) If the valves are leaking I would go with a good 3-angle valve job(especially on the exhaust side as the intake is radious cut stock) Make sure that before you get it milled you have the stupid oil hole welded up thats on the drivers side rear corner next that head bolt hole! If your head dont already have alum core plugs get some. There are two ways to go about that:#1,screw them in finger tight and weld them in. #2, Torque them in using some ultra black Permatex for a little "cushion" to 60 In/LBs
As for lifters,I have re-used stock ones a few times with no problems. If some are missing the little plastic retainer I would find some good used one to replace those. Cindy has a stash of good used ones that you could get from her if need be. But, if you have the cash go with the improved INA units. Just be careful when you are pulling them out of the rockers you dont lose any of the lifter discs!
As for the cams LWP stage1s would be a nice upgrade. I have not run any of these yet but talking to Wallace it sounds like they are worth about 50 HP. Getting them cryoed while you are at it a a very good idea. That depends or the rest of you setup alot tho also.
As for your I-staft,get the newest version of one and get that cryoed as well. You are gonna want to put new bearings in also. Every time I have had a TIII pulled down the bearing is on its way out. If you have the whole motor out getting the block decked is a good idea when using s Cometic HG also. Anyhow,long enough for now hope this gave you some ideas:thumb:

thanks for the info the oil hole. I new i was forgeting something.

And regarding the int shaft: what do you mean by the newest version?

Im still undecided about cryoing the whole top end. Anyone ever grenade a valve or rocker arm on these heads?


once again thanks for the info thus far

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 03:50 PM
And regarding the int shaft: what do you mean by the newest version?



Dude, you gotta listen, TI OR TII shaft :p

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 05:31 PM
Dude, you gotta listen, TI OR TII shaft :p

and in your logic, lotashelbys is saying to use the TIII shaft when you've said they arent as strong even though you said he knows his stuff sooooooooooo clarification is in order correct?
maybe he was refering to a reman unit like the ones cindy is selling.
Thats why ppl ask questions ....all you gotta do is listen:banghead:

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 06:06 PM
and in your logic, lotashelbys is saying to use the TIII shaft when you've said they arent as strong even though you said he knows his stuff sooooooooooo clarification is in order correct?
maybe he was refering to a reman unit like the ones cindy is selling.
Thats why ppl ask questions ....all you gotta do is listen:banghead:

Cindy sells the same shaft for all engines, I keep telling you this. There is no updated shaft. And for the record, he said use the updated shaft, not TIII specific.

Lotashelbys
03-08-2007, 06:23 PM
OK,Ok,settle down:D I will get the P/N off one of my good ones when I go out to my shop tonight. All the commonblocks used the same shaft but Mopar came out with a better heat treated one after all the first 91 TIIIs had so many problems. When I compared the two side by side the "newer" unit had a little more beefier looking teeth that drive the oil pump.

You do know the trick of using an 8valve I-shaft gear and using an 8valve tensioner with the belt guides machined off an no idler wooks with the stock TIII belt right? You can do it that way if you dont want to keep over-driving the I-shaft like e stock TIII does:thumb:

Someday when I get some time I am gonna make a custom tensioner to do just this.

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 06:25 PM
Cindy sells the same shaft for all engines, I keep telling you this. There is no updated shaft. And for the record, he said use the updated shaft, not TIII specific.

i know she does:nod:

your right there is no updated shaft, he never said updated shaft, he told me to get the newest shaft. I was asking what he ment by it. Could be that he was talkn about ditching the one in the block for a "new" reman simply for the sake that its a reman, or he could be talking about making sure to stay with TIII seeing how the TIII engine is "newer" than the TII. Or he could be talking about getting a TI/II shaft because as you have said "its better". You and i dont know what he ment by it...thats why i was asking him:thumb:

we've had this discusion about the shaft via PM. I know your view on the topic.

AND DAMNET! MY THREAD IS OFF TOPIC AGAIN!:mad: :yuck:

BACK ON TOPIC
cryo everything?..worth it?
lotashelbys: what do you mean by newer shaft?
anyone got links to the oil hole plug thread?

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 06:27 PM
OK,Ok,settle down:D I will get the P/N off one of my good ones when I go out to my shop tonight. All the commonblocks used the same shaft but Mopar came out with a better heat treated one after all the first 91 TIIIs had so many problems. When I compared the two side by side the "newer" unit had a little more beefier looking teeth that drive the oil pump.
.


HA I WIN!

Lotashelbys
03-08-2007, 06:32 PM
and in your logic, lotashelbys is saying to use the TIII shaft when you've said they arent as strong even though you said he knows his stuff sooooooooooo clarification is in order correct?
: Simon may think that the TIII shaft isnt as strong but its the same as the TI and TIIs. The reasons why him along with others may think its not as strong is because you rarely ever hear of a 8valve one going bad. That is because they are overdriven on the TIII do to a smaller gear. Then if the timing belt isnt properly tensioned it causes alot more strain on the bearings. So you got two bad things going on at once and after time the shaft either strips out or the bearings fail:mad:

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 06:33 PM
You do know the trick of using an 8valve I-shaft gear and using an 8valve tensioner with the belt guides machined off an no idler wooks with the stock TIII belt right? You can do it that way if you dont want to keep over-driving the I-shaft like e stock TIII does:thumb:

Someday when I get some time I am gonna make a custom tensioner to do just this.

No i didnt know that, thats a realy neat idea!

question regarding the i shaft itself. Seeing how the 92+ i shafts have, as you said a 'beefier' gear, would the Common Block oil pump align up with the oil pump gear properly?

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 06:34 PM
You do know the trick of using an 8valve I-shaft gear and using an 8valve tensioner with the belt guides machined off an no idler wooks with the stock TIII belt right? You can do it that way if you dont want to keep over-driving the I-shaft like e stock TIII does:thumb:

Someday when I get some time I am gonna make a custom tensioner to do just this.

Yes, or just use an 8 valve gear and remove the idler, Mike Radowski told us that. I am getting some TIII specific gears made up that spin it at normal speed.

Well based on my research, there is no more TIII specific int shaft, If I am wrong, I apologize.

Lotashelbys
03-08-2007, 06:36 PM
HA I WIN!

Looks like you guys are close enough together,I call a boxing match:D
JUST KIDDING!

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 06:49 PM
We'll take it out at the track, when I show him who's boss, :partywoot: :bounce2: :wave1: :rockon: :bolt:

WOP'R
03-08-2007, 07:05 PM
We'll take it out at the track, when I show him who's boss, :partywoot: :bounce2: :wave1: :rockon: :bolt:


if your van ever makes down the track in one piece:p

turbovanmanČ
03-08-2007, 07:19 PM
if your van ever makes down the track in one piece:p

Ditto on your car, if you ever git er done, muhahahahaa, :fencing:

jeff1234
03-08-2007, 10:40 PM
For whatever its worth, I would have the guides done. Nothing annoys me like seeing that puff of oil smoke on start up. Additionally your valve job wont seal as well if the guides are worn. Get a performance valve job which will be five angles not three. I havent seen the pocket on the intake and exhaust on this type of head, but if they are like every other manufacturer there are sharp edges that should be carefully blended. More than that is a waste of time unless you have a flow bench or are sending your head to a porter who has one. Its really hard to get runners to flow the same because every one is an individual needing individual attention. I've done about ten sets of heads for Chevies and Fords and its alot of work for not much return.
jeff1234

Lotashelbys
03-09-2007, 12:51 AM
^ Yes good idea to at least get the guides tightened up. I would get some valvestem seals for sure. They are still availible for Mopar:thumb:

WOP'R
03-09-2007, 01:32 AM
HA, well it looks like the answer is "if your taking it off you might as well redo everything"

my questions is, is it possible to get valves radius cut with out the head and before a valve job and install?

i was thinking of sending down the valvetrain to lonewolf to have cryo treating and grinding. Then bringing back the components to have a local shop install and do the 'rebuild'. the local machine shop would charge me close to half the amount

jeff1234
03-09-2007, 09:19 AM
Yes, If your taking it off and doing some rebuilding, fix whatever needs attention, "if" you have the money to do it at the time. Why?
Because;
1. It saves time and money. Should you have to go back in and take care of that issue 5-10 thousand miles down the road you will sacrifice gaskets, coolant, sealants and running around using up precious personal time. Do it once and forget about it. In my years of playing with cars this has been taught to me over and over, until I finally got it.
2. Take your valves to the machinist and have the work done. They dont need the head at this point. The valve grinding machine chucks (holds on to) the valve stem and the grinder makes the valve surfaces concentric to the valve stem. They want the head so they can grind the valve seat to match each valve, this can be done after you get the valves cryo'd. If you grind the valves after the cryo treatment, you will likely affect the cryo treatment in some negative manner.
Good Luck, bite the bullet and pay now, smile later.
jeff1234:D

mpgmike
03-09-2007, 09:58 AM
For what it's worth, the seat gets the radius, not the valve.

Mike

turbovanmanČ
03-09-2007, 01:32 PM
You guys are cryo treating the valves too? I am all for thoroughness but isnt that overkill?

Lotashelbys
03-09-2007, 07:13 PM
I would say that doing the valves is overkill. If it were mine I would do the cams and the I-shaft for sure and possibly the rockers for the rolller's sake.

turbovanmanČ
03-09-2007, 07:37 PM
I would say that doing the valves is overkill. If it were mine I would do the cams and the I-shaft for sure and possibly the rockers for the rolller's sake.

Thats what I am doing, getting the rocker shaft DFL'd, cryo and coat the cams, cryo the rockers. Int shaft, jury is out as I am using my 8 valve and spinning it at 8 valve speed.

Lotashelbys
03-09-2007, 07:54 PM
O,BTW,Simon I got the P/N on that "improved" I-shaft. It is 4667361. I was told it has some sort of cryo-treating from Mopar. They supposedly came stock on the late,late 92s and all the 93s had them. If you set them side by side you can actually see that the newer one has some sort of coating on the metal. The oil pump gears a a little longer and the the center of it is un-machined.

turbovanmanČ
03-09-2007, 08:07 PM
Thanks, I just called Dodge, and the part number won't come up in there system?????????

Lotashelbys
03-09-2007, 08:13 PM
Probably cause its been NS1 for like 15 years:mad:

turbovanmanČ
03-09-2007, 10:37 PM
Probably cause its been NS1 for like 15 years:mad:


So then there really is no updated shaft as you can't buy it, :eyebrows:

WOP'R
03-09-2007, 11:08 PM
OK so, i think ive figured out whats going on with the project.

use stock lifters
buy tit retainers and newer style int shaft ( if i dont have it), arp head studs and cometic head gasket
buy a clutch that doesnt suck! any help on this would be great.
plug oil hole
got local shop to pressure test and mill the head

have lonewolf:
do S1 cam grind
cryo cams, int shaft, oil pump, rocker assy, (valves? maybe over kill?)
DFL cams, int shaft, rocker assy...anything else?
port stock exhaust manifold

ship it back to me
have local machine shop do the valve job checking/replacing guides if needed
assy the top end myself or have the same machine shop do it for me.



with the little bit of money saved i may put it towards adj cams.
i may also get a stage 2 or 3 cal from fwd performance so i could put my injectors 3bar and afpr to use

turbovanmanČ
03-10-2007, 01:47 AM
Sure, buy the Ti retainers, :banghead:

WOP'R
03-10-2007, 04:04 AM
unless your method costs less and works of course

turbovanmanČ
03-10-2007, 01:31 PM
unless your method costs less and works of course

I get my head back next week so Rob or I can figure it out.

Millerman340
04-28-2007, 02:41 AM
Sure, buy the Ti retainers, :banghead:

So let the cat out the bag Simon:)

turbovanmanČ
04-28-2007, 02:49 PM
So let the cat out the bag Simon:)

I still haven't got my head back yet so no update, :(