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SebringLX
02-26-2007, 03:49 PM
So I've been lurking here every now and then, gathering little bits of info to help on my project here and there. I thought it's time I register and share what I'm doing. This is the first time I've ever done anything like this with a vehicle.

Car: 2004 Chrysler Sebring LX (Sedan)
Engine: 2.4L I4 (naturally aspirated from the factory)
Transmssion: 41TE 4 speed automatic.

I'm using a mix of parts from a PT Cruiser turbo kit (from before they came with the turbo from the factory), and SRT-4 parts. The turbo is a Mitsubishi 20G from Hahn Racecraft, and I'm using their manifold and O2 housing as well.

On the intake side, I have an SRT-4 intake manifold, modified by Darrel Cox Racing to fit with my automatic transmission, a Boomba insulating intake manifold gasket, and a Modern Performance 62mm throttle body. The intercooler is Hahn's 24x6x4.5 universal intercooler.

Fuel - Boomba SRT-4 fuel rail, and SRT-4 Stage 1 fuel injectors. There will also be a return line with an upgraded fuel pump and fuel regulator from Hahn Racecraft.

Ignition - MSD DIS-2, MSD 8.5mm super conductor spark plug wires, NGK Iradium spark plugs.

Transmission - The transmission is going to be on it's way to A&A Motorsports to be built soon. When it's done, it should be enough to hold a lot of power. ;-)

I also have a Greddy eManage, Profec E-01, and Type RS BOV going into this.

The car is in the shop getting everything done now. I just dropped it off today. Should have it back in a couple of weeks. I'm hoping for 300 to 340 whp out of this initially (that's all the fuel system will take according to my calculations). Eventually I'd like to hit 400 whp out of this, or as close to that as possible. I plan on drag racing when the track opens up in late April here.

I think this project is pretty unique. A lot of people tend to take the engine out of this car, or it's Stratus cousin, throw it into a Neon or other older Mopar's, and then turbo it. I've seen a couple 1st Generation Stratus Sedans that have turbos on them, but I've never seen a 2nd Generation Stratus/Sebring Sedan with a turbo on it (not counting the ones in Mexico that come with one). As far as I know, I'll be the first 2nd Gen Sebring to do this. I bought this car brand new in July of '03. I didn't buy it with the intention of doing something like this. It was probably about 6 to 8 months after I bought it that I started thinking about it. I've been researching this for about 3 years, and now it's finally going to happen. The car has been sitting in my garage since October. I did a few minor things myself, and then got too busy to finish it myself, plus had some issues with some of the parts I ordered arriving broken. Just a couple more weeks, and I should be able to drive it again, I can't wait!

85shelbycharger
02-26-2007, 04:38 PM
First of all, welcome to the board! :welcome:
Secondly, sounds like one wicked cool project you have going on. Keep us updated!

SebringLX
02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
First of all, welcome to the board! :welcome:
Secondly, sounds like one wicked cool project you have going on. Keep us updated!
Thanks! Forgot to mention... the engine is being rebuilt using SRT-4 internals (pistons, rods, rings, etc). Those were cheaper than getting Eagle Rods, and JE or Wiseco pistons. They should be able to handle what I'm going to throw at them though. Definately wasn't going to try and throw much at the stock internals. :eyebrows:

SebringLX
03-20-2007, 09:44 AM
UPDATE:

I had my new internals balanced, just got those back yesterday. I also picked up a windage tray with crank scraper and baffle from Darrel Cox Racing. I ordered a 3" catless down pipe with electronically controlled cut-out from Needswings, it has arrived as well. The engine should start getting put back together today, and hopefully be done by the end of the week. My transmission should be about half way done by now, hoping it have it back by next week.

I've got to send my axles off (again) to get cryo treated, after I get the boots taken off. I didn't think about it, and the company cryo treating them for me didn't tell me before I sent them in, that they can't have any rubber on them when they go through the cryo treating process. I was hoping to have this whole thing done by the end of this month, but it's looking like it will be more around the 1st week of April now.

Subliminal
03-20-2007, 09:46 AM
Where's that 'this thread is worthless w/o pics' emoticon? ;)

Welcome to the board!

mcsvt
03-20-2007, 10:07 AM
:welcome: and sounds like it's going to be a fun car when finished.

Tony Hanna
03-20-2007, 10:28 AM
Where's that 'this thread is worthless w/o pics' emoticon? ;)

Welcome to the board!

http://www.sledxtreme.com/images/smiles/worthless_without_pics.gif

Welcome! Definately post up some pics of your progress.:)

SebringLX
03-20-2007, 11:13 AM
62mm throttle body:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/62mmtb.jpg
TB comparison:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/tbcompare.jpg

Boomba Fuel Rail:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/boomba.jpg

Turbo and manifold:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turbo.jpg

O2 housing:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/O2housing.jpg

New 24x4.5x6" intercooler next to an SRT-4 intercooler:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20008.jpg

Here's a couple shots of the modified SRT-4 intake manifold, 62mm throttle body, boomba fuel rail, and powder coated SRT-4 valve cover (kinda dusty in these pics) on the car.
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20005.jpg
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20007.jpg
Those were taken when I was trying to get it put back together enough to drive down the street and drop it off at the shop for the turbo install.

Here's the car with the engine and transmissoin out of it:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20011.jpg

Here's the engine on a stand upside down:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20013.jpg

SebringLX
03-20-2007, 11:15 AM
A view of the crank:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20014.jpg

The old pistons and other misc parts on the work bench:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20015.jpg

The head, camshafts, and other stuff on the work bench:
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turboinstall%20016.jpg

I need to remember to take my camera with me next time I go over to the shop to check on progress. I didn't get any pics of the new stuff that came in, just took it straight over to the shop. That's all for now. :thumb:

Turbodave
03-20-2007, 11:48 AM
Welcome!, Looks good so far, shiny new parts are always cool!

The second gen cloud cars really drive nicely, they just needed more hp, which it looks like you'll have. That car should be one heck of a sleeper once it's done.

SebringLX
03-20-2007, 11:54 AM
Welcome!, Looks good so far, shiny new parts are always cool!

The second gen cloud cars really drive nicely, they just needed more hp, which it looks like you'll have. That car should be one heck of a sleeper once it's done.

Thanks! Yeah I love this car and how it drives, I can't wait until it's done. Shooting for around 400 whp. I plan on improving the way it drives by adding front and rear sway bars and strut braces eventually. I had a first gen cloud car ('96 Stratus), loved that car too, traded it in for this car when I got it brand new back in July of '03.

SebringLX
04-02-2007, 11:23 AM
Well the car is a little behind the schedule I was hoping for... Transmission is supposed to be done and shipped back to me by Wednesday. Here's a couple pics of my 41TE automatic transmission being beefed up (and made pretty).

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/535000-535999/535908_113_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/535000-535999/535908_119_full.jpg

Speedeuphoria
04-02-2007, 01:00 PM
nice and like I said on srt forums, stick w/ teh 650cc injectors and you'll be good:thumb:

Mario
04-02-2007, 01:23 PM
I like the idea. Looks like you're moving along. Where/how did you do your transmission like that?

SebringLX
04-02-2007, 01:37 PM
I like the idea. Looks like you're moving along. Where/how did you do your transmission like that?
AJ of A&A Motorsports in NY is building my transmission so it can handle 425+ whp. There is a powder coating company near him called Action Powder Coating, he took it to them to powder coat the case for me.

SpeedEuphoria, I actually just ordered the Deatschwerks 750's. :thumb: They were only $40 more than the 650's, so I thought I might as well go with them. I figure the 750's will give me room for more power if I ever decide I want it.

GLHS592
04-02-2007, 06:48 PM
I've been thinking about doing the same thing with my wife's '04 Stratus. I have some questions if you don't mind.

Maybe I missed it, but what kind of electronics are you using? Is the Greddy eManage a piggyback? If I were to run an SRT-4 or PT ecu, would it plug right in to my existing harness or do I have to swap that out? If so, would the SRT-4/PT underhood harness plug into the Stratus body harness? Are there any websites showing this conversion?

Speedeuphoria
04-03-2007, 07:57 AM
SpeedEuphoria, I actually just ordered the Deatschwerks 750's. :thumb: They were only $40 more than the 650's, so I thought I might as well go with them. I figure the 750's will give me room for more power if I ever decide I want it.

well the only reason I was suggesting the 650's is because it is enough to get you what you said you wanted and also w/ only a piggy back sometimes its hard to pull fuel and get the idle/drivability right

SebringLX
04-03-2007, 09:52 AM
I've been thinking about doing the same thing with my wife's '04 Stratus. I have some questions if you don't mind.

Maybe I missed it, but what kind of electronics are you using? Is the Greddy eManage a piggyback? If I were to run an SRT-4 or PT ecu, would it plug right in to my existing harness or do I have to swap that out? If so, would the SRT-4/PT underhood harness plug into the Stratus body harness? Are there any websites showing this conversion?
Yes the eManage is a piggyback, and that's what I am using, along with a "fuel mapper" from Hahn Racecraft. No you can't use an SRT-4 ECU, because the Stratus/Sebring has an automatic transmission, and the transmission control is part of the ECU. If you look at an SRT-4 ECU and a Stratus ECU, the SRT-4 ECU has one less port on it. As far as using the PT ECU goes, I don't know. There was a guy with a Sebring Convertible working on a project similar to mine, and he was going to try and use a PT ECU. He had the wiring diagrams and was comparing them. I think he was thinking it wouldn't work. Also you can't get a brand new PT ECU without a PT VIN # from what we determined. I guess maybe you could find one in a junk yard or on eBay, but it's still very questionable. I decided to use what Hahn could give me, along with the eManage, would be the best way to go.

There are no websites showing this conversion. As far as I know, I am the first one to do this on a 2G Stratus/Sebring Sedan, AND document it. I know of at least one person that tried in the past, failed, and gave up on it. There were rumors of someone else doing it, but never any documented proof. I have been fully documenting my build here: http://www.2gss.org/index.php?showtopic=11954 There's about 15 pages to read through there right now, lol. I will be selling "turbo kits" for the 2G Stratus/Sebring Sedans once mine is done and fully tested. I have 3 years of research and over $10,000 invested into this. If you want exactly what I have for your wife's Stratus, expect to spend close to that much (less if you do most of the work yourself, I've spent quite a bit in labor to have a local shop install stuff for me). I will be offering several kits for different power levels/budgets. The least expensive one is still probably going to cost just under $4000 in parts. I'm hoping to have everything fully tested and ready to sell by July. By fully tested, I mean, several dyno runs, several runs down the track, and at least a months worth of daily driving.

86Shelby
04-03-2007, 03:36 PM
That looks pretty nice! Well thought out. I'll see if I can get some pics to send you of the Sebring convertible with an alky-injected turbo V6 in it. ;)

SebringLX
04-03-2007, 05:01 PM
That looks pretty nice! Well thought out. I'll see if I can get some pics to send you of the Sebring convertible with an alky-injected turbo V6 in it. ;)
Thanks! If it's a 2G Sebring Convertible with the Chrysler 2.7L V6 in it, I know a LOT of guys that would be very interested in that! If it's a 1G that used the Mitsubishi 2.5L V6, well I think quite a few people have done turbos on that engine over at stratusphere. The V6 doesn't interest me a whole lot, 'cause I have the 2.4L I4. :eyebrows:

86Shelby
04-03-2007, 05:14 PM
It's the 2.7. I'll check in with my friend's shop that did it for any pics.

SebringLX
04-03-2007, 05:37 PM
It's the 2.7. I'll check in with my friend's shop that did it for any pics.
Sweet, I know the 2.7L V6 owners over on 2GSS.org would be thrilled to get some details on it. If you happen to know the owner, you should try to talk him into registering over there and sharing that project with everybody. I know there's a guy on 2GSS (one of the admins actually) that was going to put a GT35VNT Turbo and HC11 controller water injection system on his '02 Sebring Convertible GTC (2.7L V6 w/ manual trans). I know it can't be his car though, 'cause he does all his own work on his cars. Plus his signature still says that it's "coming soon". The only reason he hasn't finished that project yet was because the Navy had him over in Japan, and then sent him from there to Italy, he hasn't been back to the US where he's car is in storage at long enough to do it.

GLHS592
04-03-2007, 06:18 PM
http://www.2gss.org/index.php?showtopic=11954

You have to be a member there to view that thread.


I have 3 years of research and over $10,000 invested into this.

I believe you just talked me out of it. I thought it would be so much easier than that. I figured it would be a plug and play type of deal.

SebringLX
04-03-2007, 08:38 PM
You have to be a member there to view that thread.

I believe you just talked me out of it. I thought it would be so much easier than that. I figured it would be a plug and play type of deal.
Ahh, I thought it might be like that, I wasn't sure what stuff you could view without being a member, oh well.

A lot of it is plug and play... most of the stuff bolts on, but some custom work is involved. The biggest costs for my build were the transmission, and the labor for having the engine rebuilt and having everything installed. If you just wanted a simple 5 to 8 psi setup on stock internals and a stock transmission, you could do it for under $4000 in parts. I'll have exact pricing figured out once everything is up and running and has been tested. That "over $10,000" I have invested in this includes all the mistakes I've made on this project. Parts I ordered that I ended up not being able to use... parts that got broken by the USPS... Plus I spent extra money here and there to make a lot of stuff look pretty, and probably have some other stuff that isn't completely necessary too. However, not counting the stuff that's just for show, most of what I have is what you would need to reach the power levels I'm going for. I'm trying to get 400+ whp and 1/4 mile times in the high 11's out of this. Not everybody cares about stuff looking nice, and not everybody would want that much power in their 2G Stratus/Sebring Sedan, so what will be available from my learning experiences will cost whoever does this after me quite a bit less than it has costed me.

shad0w2.s_tur80
04-03-2007, 10:06 PM
ok can someone explaine this to me how do you spend 10,000 to put a turbo on 2.4? like why is this costing so much you can get a compleat 2.4 turbo engine whit under 30k for arond 2500-3300. and you can also get the wiring haness and computer for like maybe 500 tops. my budy bulit a 2.0 turbo whit all stock srt-4 parts and what not for under 3k. why is this soo expsnsive?

Mario
04-03-2007, 10:14 PM
Ok, can someone explain this to me: How do you spend $10,000 to put a turbo on 2.4? Why is this costing so much?You can get a complete 2.4 turbo engine with under 30k for around $2500-$3300 and you can also get the wiring haness and computer for about 500 tops. My buddy built a 2.0 turbo with all stock SRT-4 parts and what not, for under $3,000. Why is this so expensive?


Like, I don't know, maybe you should like, read his post above yours?

When you build something right, with a decent horsepower goal in mind, and would like it to be reliable, it costs you some change.

shad0w2.s_tur80
04-03-2007, 10:25 PM
When you build something right, with a decent horsepower goal in mind, and would like it to be reliable, it costs you some change.

thats is true but i just think that 10,000 is way out thier

SebringLX
04-04-2007, 10:05 AM
Yeah what Mario said. Read what I have said already.

Well this isn't an older Neon, or other older Dodge that tons of people have swapped a turbo 2.4L into. There aren't easy cheap ways to do this. Your buddy that swapped with all stock SRT-4 stuff isn't going to make anywhere near the HP and torque that I will make. It would have cost him about as much as it has costed me, if he were to go for the same power levels. Stock SRT-4 stuff = 235 whp and 224 lb/ft of torque. I am going for almost twice that, at over 400 whp and over 400 lb/ft of torque. To do everything I have done on an SRT-4 would only be $2k to $3k cheaper.

Why not use an SRT-4 engine? Well for one thing, I only have 40,000 miles on my NA 2.4L engine, and I have put every single one of those miles on this car myself. 99% of the SRT-4 engines out there come from wrecked cars that were very abused. Most of the wrecks were the owners fault, he/she beat the hell out of his car, lost control, and totaled it. Also, not only do you need the complete engine, ECU, and wiring harness, you also need the transmission. So you're looking at around $3500 (maybe less) for all that. Plus you'll have to pay around $500 in freight to have it shipped to you. Now you still have to fabricate motor and transmission mounts, and try to get it to mount properly in the 2G Stratus/Sebring engine bay. So add some more cost for that. If you wanted to stick with the automatic transmission, like I did, you could get a turbo 2.4L from a PT cruiser, but you'll still have to worry about mounting it. So now you have this used engine out of a wrecked vehicle, that was probably abused. So you'll want to rebuild it (something I did with my engine anyway), add about another $500+ in parts, and $1500 in labor for that, and $175 to get everything balanced (unless you can do that sort of thing yourself, I personally don't have the tools or the time to do that). So right now you're up over $7000 on your STOCK SRT-4 (or PT Cruiser) engine swap into your 2G could car. You're still not finished at this point. If you went with an SRT-4 engine, the stock SRT-4 turbo manifold does not fit in the engine bay on a 2G cloud car. If you went with a PT Cruiser engine, the stock PT Cruiser intake manifold does not fit in the engine bay on 2G cloud car (I'm not sure if the turbo manifold from the PT fits or not). So plan on spending a couple hundred more just to fix either of those issues. You also can't use the intercooler and intercooler piping from either engine (they don't fit), so you'll have to spend $300+ on an intercooler that fits, and another $300+ on piping, silicon couplers, t-bolt clamps. etc. Now you're still only at STOCK SRT-4/PT Cruiser power levels, and you're already pretty close to the $10,000+ I've spent converting my NA engine that was already in the car, to a high powered turbo engine. By the time you get all the other parts together needed to reach 400+ whp and torque, you will have spent far more than I have.

The basic parts needed to convert the NA 2.4L on a 2G cloud car to a turbo 2.4L cost under $3000. Add the $600+ for intercooler and piping, and you're good to run at the 5 to 8 psi that would be safe on the NA's stock internals. Much cheaper than trying to swap a used turbo 2.4L engine in. It's when you want anything more that the costs start adding up. Cheap route, use brand new SRT-4 internals, which will cost you about $350. Or you can go for the JE or Wiseco pistons, and Eagle or Crower rods, which are far more expensive. Either way... $175 to get them balanced, $1500 for the engine rebuild. That will get you to around 260 whp safely on the stock transmission. Anymore than that, and your transmission will fail very quickly. Even at those levels, it's only a matter of time before the stock 41TE transmission fails on you. There's one guy out there right now beefing up 41TE transmissions (mostly for the PT Cruiser guys that want to go big turbo and big power, however the 2G cloud cars use the same auto trans as them), and it costs $2775 for him to do that. Those are the big costs right there, I have a lot of other little things that add to it quickly. There's the eManage and Profec E-01. 750cc fuel injectors, Boomba fuel rail, custom modified SRT-4 intake manifold with a 62mm throttle body, Needswings 3" down pipe with electronically controlled cut-out, etc. etc. Shipping costs for everything, buying parts that ended up not fitting, having parts get damaged in the mail with no insurance on the packages... all that quickly adds up.

I don't know if I mentioned it, but I also put in a windage tray with crank scraper and baffle when the engine was being rebuilt.

Now do you see?

Turbulence
04-04-2007, 10:22 AM
:thumb: Ya know, that was very nicely put! It's so easy for folks on forums to go off the deep end when someone posts a comment like the above, not that it was anywhere nasty or anything, just someone with doubts. Good job

Martin
89 Horizon


Yeah what Mario said. Read what I have said already.

Well this isn't an older Neon, or other older Dodge that tons of people have swapped a turbo 2.4L into. There aren't easy cheap ways to do this. Your buddy that swapped with all stock SRT-4 stuff isn't going to make anywhere near the HP and torque that I will make. It would have cost him about as much as it has costed me, if he were to go for the same power levels. Stock SRT-4 stuff = 235 whp and 224 lb/ft of torque. I am going for almost twice that, at over 400 whp and over 400 lb/ft of torque. To do everything I have done on an SRT-4 would only be $2k to $3k cheaper.

Why not use an SRT-4 engine? Well for one thing, I only have 40,000 miles on my NA 2.4L engine, and I have put every single one of those miles on this car myself. 99% of the SRT-4 engines out there come from wrecked cars that were very abused. Most of the wrecks were the owners fault, he/she beat the hell out of his car, lost control, and totaled it. Also, not only do you need the complete engine, ECU, and wiring harness, you also need the transmission. So you're looking at around $3500 (maybe less) for all that. Plus you'll have to pay around $500 in freight to have it shipped to you. Now you still have to fabricate motor and transmission mounts, and try to get it to mount properly in the 2G Stratus/Sebring engine bay. So add some more cost for that. If you wanted to stick with the automatic transmission, like I did, you could get a turbo 2.4L from a PT cruiser, but you'll still have to worry about mounting it. So now you have this used engine out of a wrecked vehicle, that was probably abused. So you'll want to rebuild it (something I did with my engine anyway), add about another $500+ in parts, and $1500 in labor for that, and $175 to get everything balanced (unless you can do that sort of thing yourself, I personally don't have the tools or the time to do that). So right now you're up over $7000 on your STOCK SRT-4 (or PT Cruiser) engine swap into your 2G could car. You're still not finished at this point. If you went with an SRT-4 engine, the stock SRT-4 turbo manifold does not fit in the engine bay on a 2G cloud car. If you went with a PT Cruiser engine, the stock PT Cruiser intake manifold does not fit in the engine bay on 2G cloud car (I'm not sure if the turbo manifold from the PT fits or not). So plan on spending a couple hundred more just to fix either of those issues. You also can't use the intercooler and intercooler piping from either engine (they don't fit), so you'll have to spend $300+ on an intercooler that fits, and another $300+ on piping, silicon couplers, t-bolt clamps. etc. Now you're still only at STOCK SRT-4/PT Cruiser power levels, and you're already pretty close to the $10,000+ I've spent converting my NA engine that was already in the car, to a high powered turbo engine. By the time you get all the other parts together needed to reach 400+ whp and torque, you will have spent far more than I have.

The basic parts needed to convert the NA 2.4L on a 2G cloud car to a turbo 2.4L cost under $3000. Add the $600+ for intercooler and piping, and you're good to run at the 5 to 8 psi that would be safe on the NA's stock internals. Much cheaper than trying to swap a used turbo 2.4L engine in. It's when you want anything more that the costs start adding up. Cheap route, use brand new SRT-4 internals, which will cost you about $350. Or you can go for the JE or Wiseco pistons, and Eagle or Crower rods, which are far more expensive. Either way... $175 to get them balanced, $1500 for the engine rebuild. That will get you to around 260 whp safely on the stock transmission. Anymore than that, and your transmission will fail very quickly. Even at those levels, it's only a matter of time before the stock 41TE transmission fails on you. There's one guy out there right now beefing up 41TE transmissions (mostly for the PT Cruiser guys that want to go big turbo and big power, however the 2G cloud cars use the same auto trans as them), and it costs $2775 for him to do that. Those are the big costs right there, I have a lot of other little things that add to it quickly. There's the eManage and Profec E-01. 750cc fuel injectors, Boomba fuel rail, custom modified SRT-4 intake manifold with a 62mm throttle body, Needswings 3" down pipe with electronically controlled cut-out, etc. etc. Shipping costs for everything, buying parts that ended up not fitting, having parts get damaged in the mail with no insurance on the packages... all that quickly adds up.

I don't know if I mentioned it, but I also put in a windage tray with crank scraper and baffle when the engine was being rebuilt.

Now do you see?


thats is true but i just think that 10,000 is way out thier

shad0w2.s_tur80
04-04-2007, 02:42 PM
Now do you see?

yeah totaly

i hope you sell a few of these kits cus your puting alot in to this. i didnt know that you needed a custom exhaust mani to put the turbo on due to clearnece issuse.

SebringLX
04-04-2007, 03:18 PM
yeah totaly

i hope you sell a few of these kits cus your puting alot in to this. i didnt know that you needed a custom exhaust mani to put the turbo on due to clearnece issuse.

Actually the aftermarket SRT-4 manifold I have should work, so it's not really custom (as I didn't have someone make it for me, I used one that was already being made). It's going to be a tight fit with the 20G turbo I'm using, however I'm sure a smaller turbo, like the 16G, would fit with this manifold and not have any clearance issues. You can use a manifold off of a Mexican Stratus R/T (those came with the 2.4L turbo in them stock), however those can be kind of hard to find, and you're stuck with the stock turbo on that. It's design is similar to the SRT-4, but it's made to fit in the 2G cloud car. I didn't even want to try an external wastegate setup, it didn't look like any of the aftermarket manifolds with external wastgates would fit without a ton more work.

Thanks, the main reason I decided to try and sell this as a kit when I'm done, is because I've put so much into it. I gotta try and get some back, lol. I actually already have 1 guy lined up to buy.

shad0w2.s_tur80
04-04-2007, 04:02 PM
.

, the main reason I decided to try and sell this as a kit when I'm done, is because I've put so much into it. I gotta try and get some back, lol. I actually already have 1 guy lined up to buy.

yeah
thats why i hope you sell few to at least cover some of your expensives

Vigo
04-04-2007, 09:31 PM
if someone has some links to an actual half-decent 2.7 build please link me. i dont give one flying ---- to hear more about sludge and would like to see that top end put to some boost and rpm :)


nice project, keep us updated!

Speedeuphoria
04-05-2007, 08:38 AM
You can use a manifold off of a Mexican Stratus R/T (those came with the 2.4L turbo in them stock), however those can be kind of hard to find, and you're stuck with the stock turbo on that. It's design is similar to the SRT-4, but it's made to fit in the 2G cloud car.

thats the 2G, the 1G is basically a log manifold w/ a T3 flange. It will bolt to the newer heads w/ slight modifications.:thumb:

SebringLX
04-05-2007, 03:06 PM
thats the 2G, the 1G is basically a log manifold w/ a T3 flange. It will bolt to the newer heads w/ slight modifications.:thumb:

Yup, it was the 2G mexican manifold I was talking about. :thumb:

SebringLX
04-10-2007, 04:19 PM
My fuel injectors and power plate for the exhaust cut-out arrived today, so I ran them over to the shop on my way back to work. My transmission is on the way back now, supposed to be here no later than next Tuesday. I'm hoping it makes it here by Friday but we'll see. NY to MT is a long trip.

SebringLX
04-18-2007, 02:58 PM
The transmission is here!
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20001.jpg

The engine is fully assembled, and the turbo is mounted to the engine!
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20002.jpg
http://sebringlx.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20003.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20004.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20005.jpg

Then the last shot here is a close up of how the oil return was tapped into the oil pan... My mechanic chose the location to tap it, instead of following the instructions Hahn sent me for doing it on a PT Cruiser...
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbo%20006.jpg

Subliminal
04-18-2007, 03:03 PM
Dang that's some shiny blue equipment you've got there! Nice!

Vigo
04-18-2007, 08:17 PM
hows that oil return going to do with the passenger axle? i know its annoying to do pan return on 2.2 2.5 with some kinds of fittings because of this.

raccoon
04-18-2007, 08:43 PM
so this is what it looks like when you actually spend money on a dodge.

very nice.

GLHS592
04-18-2007, 09:30 PM
I can't wait to see this car completed.

SebringLX
04-19-2007, 03:17 PM
hows that oil return going to do with the passenger axle? i know its annoying to do pan return on 2.2 2.5 with some kinds of fittings because of this.
I don't know... My mechanic chose the location for the oil return... He should be putting the engine and transmission back into the car by the end of next week (waiting on some coolant tubes right now). So I should be able to answer this for you by the end of next week.

WickedShelby88
04-20-2007, 03:00 AM
If I can find anyone here in the chicagoland area that can make a trans case look as good as yours turned out I'm definitely going to do something like that. I've seen the rotor housings in an RX7 done like that many a time and it still doesnt look as good as that 41TE. Thats definitely going to be a sweet car. Your VERY right about the SRT4 platform not being near as good of an option. Unless you can find a clean one owner chances are its been run hard and put away wet.

SebringLX
04-20-2007, 09:44 AM
If I can find anyone here in the chicagoland area that can make a trans case look as good as yours turned out I'm definitely going to do something like that. I've seen the rotor housings in an RX7 done like that many a time and it still doesnt look as good as that 41TE. Thats definitely going to be a sweet car. Your VERY right about the SRT4 platform not being near as good of an option. Unless you can find a clean one owner chances are its been run hard and put away wet.
I'm very picky about my powder coaters after having someone do a really bad job on an intake manifold manifold for me. I have a friend from another forum that was doing it as a business, but now as just a hobby, do most of my powder coating for me, he does an awesome job. He's the one that did my valve cover. When the guy building my transmission offered powder coating the case as an option to me, he understood how picky I am about it. He has Action Powder Coating in NY (very close to him) do his powder coating. After looking at samples on their website (http://www.actionpowdercoat.com/), I decided to give them a try, since their work looked to be pretty high quality. They didn't match what I was looking for exactly, I wanted the "Starlight Blue" color that my valve cover is, which is pretty much that same blue, but with a metal flake in it that gives it a sparkle (photos don't do it justice). However, I was very happy with the color and quaility of the work.

SebringLX
05-02-2007, 12:34 PM
I was missing a couple coolant tubes, banjo flanges, and washers. They finally came in yesterday. When I went to drop them off, my mechanic told me he had a problem with the new head gasket he put on (it was leaking). So the head was off the engine and taken apart again.

He at least got some of the heat shielding done. He also told me he was going to start coming in on weekends (the shop is closed on weekends) to try and get this finished faster.

daytonaturbo87
05-02-2007, 04:03 PM
Wow dude, I can't believe you are sinking this much cash into it! Astonishing that you are doing this kind of a conversion to the car and farming all the work out like that. If I had a 2003 anything I don't think I'd touch it, I could never justify the $$$ and downtime on a car I paid good money for as a daily driver. No offense intended towards you sebringlx. Kudos to you for tackling such a project, I'm very interested to hear what you car can do once you get her up and running again.:thumb:

SebringLX
05-02-2007, 05:09 PM
Wow dude, I can't believe you are sinking this much cash into it! Astonishing that you are doing this kind of a conversion to the car and farming all the work out like that. If I had a 2003 anything I don't think I'd touch it, I could never justify the $$$ and downtime on a car I paid good money for as a daily driver. No offense intended towards you sebringlx. Kudos to you for tackling such a project, I'm very interested to hear what you car can do once you get her up and running again.:thumb:
I could not have justified the down time on it when it was my daily driver. From July 2003 until my divorce in January 2006, it was the only vehicle in my family.

In August of 2006, I bought a 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4. Once the snow came in October, it became my daily driver. So I haven't driven the Sebring since then. While the gas mileage sucks on the truck (5.9L V8), it's a great daily driver. The Quad Cab gives me plenty of room for my 3 year old son's car seat.

I'm engaged now, and my fiance had her own car before I met her, which she later traded in for a slighly newer used car (2002 Grand Prix). So she has her daily driver. The Sebring is paid off, so it's not hurting me at all for it to be down this long. Although I am missing some of the race season at the local drag strip already.

I needed the truck anyway (to haul home improvement supplies from the hardware store to my house). Plus having a 4X4 makes it a lot easier to get around in the winter out here in Montana. I love my Sebring, so I didn't want to trade that in. Since I already had it paid off, it wasn't a big deal to take on the truck payment. So since I had the Sebring already, and didn't need to drive every day now (although I want to drive it as much as possible), I could finally do everything I've always wanted to do with the Sebring.

daytonaturbo87
05-05-2007, 01:54 PM
Sounds cool. Be sure to keep us updated on your progress.:thumb:

SebringLX
05-11-2007, 02:11 PM
The engine is fully assembled, the transmission is bolted on to the engine, the O2 housing is on, and the heat shielding is done on the turbo and the O2 housing. Everything was sitting on the floor with the engine hoist over it ready to be hooked up and put back into the car. My mechanic said he had to do a little more heat shielding work in the engine bay before he put the engine in. He said he was going to come in tomorrow and work on it. It's looking like the engine will probably be back in the car by Tuesday.

I took a couple pics while I was there, I'll upload them and post them when I get home from work tonight. Everything looked amazing!

SebringLX
05-11-2007, 09:24 PM
Here's the new pics...

Some heat shielding in the engine bay:
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/Turbo.JPG

The engine and transmission waiting to go back into the car:
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/Turbo2.JPG
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/Turbo3.JPG

Turbodave
05-14-2007, 02:42 PM
That looks nice!

Speedeuphoria
05-14-2007, 02:52 PM
nice indeed:thumb:

Tony Hanna
05-15-2007, 11:57 AM
^+1 Beautiful work! And congrats on finding a mechanic that's willing to work weekends. Sounds like you definately got a good one.:thumb:

SebringLX
05-15-2007, 02:43 PM
^+1 Beautiful work! And congrats on finding a mechanic that's willing to work weekends. Sounds like you definately got a good one.:thumb:

Thanks... Yeah he does good work, but he didn't get anything done over the weekend, or yesterday for that matter. I stopped in today, and the engine is still sitting in the same spot, nothing else was done on the car either. He said he came in on Saturday to work on it, but then something came up, so he couldn't get anything done.

Dusty_Duster
05-16-2007, 11:27 AM
Thanks... Yeah he does good work, but he didn't get anything done over the weekend, or yesterday for that matter. I stopped in today, and the engine is still sitting in the same spot, nothing else was done on the car either. He said he came in on Saturday to work on it, but then something came up, so he couldn't get anything done.

You'll have that. When I took my Duster to a guy that would do my turbo engine swap, it was supposed to take 2-3 weeks...

Ended up being 4 months. :censored:

Very nice work on the engine and tranny. Make sure you document this whole thing (with pics) on a CarDomain (http://www.cardomain.com/) page!

SebringLX
05-16-2007, 12:32 PM
You'll have that. When I took my Duster to a guy that would do my turbo engine swap, it was supposed to take 2-3 weeks...

Ended up being 4 months. :censored:

Very nice work on the engine and tranny. Make sure you document this whole thing (with pics) on a CarDomain (http://www.cardomain.com/) page!

I've been putting off setting up a CarDomain page for it... I kind of wanted to wait until the car was done before I put it up on there. I have been taking lots of pics and keeping everything documented though.

WickedShelby88
05-17-2007, 01:02 AM
Looks like things are coming together quite well. Congrats on your engagement. Its good to hear when a guy can move on in his life and look towards the future like you have. Sounds like you will have a fun toy to drive around in as an added bonus as well when shes altogether.

SebringLX
05-23-2007, 02:28 PM
It fits, it fits, it fits!
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbosebring1.JPG
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbosebring2.JPG
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbosebring3.JPG

I can fit my hand between the turbo and the firewall. As you can see, the waste gate actuator touches, but that shouldn't be an issue.

Dusty_Duster
05-29-2007, 09:43 AM
Sweet.

SebringLX
05-29-2007, 02:18 PM
I couldn't find my Fiance's camera, so no pics for today's update.

The front end is mostly back together, it almost looks like a car again. The radiator and bumper are back in place, the front engine mount wasn't on yet though. The intercooler was hanging from the bumper from a couple of wires for a mock-up. It wasn't quite ready for piping measurements yet, so I'll go back in a couple days to get those.

azkcar135
06-01-2007, 07:00 AM
quik question. i have a 2006 dodge stratus sxt 2.4 dohc auto. how hard would it be to do a turbo swap from a turbo pt or srt-4? i have done a turbo swap on my 89 daytona which was all plug and go would this be the same?

SebringLX
06-01-2007, 03:44 PM
quik question. i have a 2006 dodge stratus sxt 2.4 dohc auto. how hard would it be to do a turbo swap from a turbo pt or srt-4? i have done a turbo swap on my 89 daytona which was all plug and go would this be the same?
See post #28 of this thread...
BTW, I'll have some "turbo kits" available that will work for your Stratus as soon as my car is done and tested.

azkcar135
06-02-2007, 07:27 AM
well i guess doing a turbo swap is out of the question. why would dodge make evrything so different? i think i would be better off going to mexico and buy one! would the turbo cirus cars swap in? having my daytona and loving the power from it being turbo my wife wants to get some more pep for the stratus but since its a bigger job maybe not. or until a full bolt on kit comes out. thanks

SebringLX
06-02-2007, 01:08 PM
well i guess doing a turbo swap is out of the question. why would dodge make evrything so different? i think i would be better off going to mexico and buy one! would the turbo cirus cars swap in? having my daytona and loving the power from it being turbo my wife wants to get some more pep for the stratus but since its a bigger job maybe not. or until a full bolt on kit comes out. thanks
Yeah one from either the turo Mexican Stratus R/T the turbo Mexican Cirrus would swap right in, but very hard to get ahold of. Full bolt on kits are what I will be selling in a few months...

SebringLX
06-08-2007, 02:52 PM
UPDATE

The intercooler is out having mounting brackets welded onto it. The Greddy e-Manage is mounted in the car and being wired up. The Greddy Profec E-01 will get installed next.

Hopefully the fuel system install will start next week.

Turbodave
06-08-2007, 05:37 PM
Sounds like it's coming along nicely, can't wait to see it done and running.

SebringLX
06-13-2007, 01:42 PM
Shouldn't be too much longer now...
The car is back on all 4's! The e-Manage is all wired up, Profec E-01 is getting hooked up. Waiting on an aluminum welder (the shop doesn't have one) to weld mounting brackets onto the intercooler. The car is supposed to go up on the lift today to get the fuel system done. It should be up on the lift when I got back on Friday to check on it again.

Here's a couple new pics:
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbosebring%20001.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/turbosebring%20002.jpg

That's all for now, should have another update on Friday.

SebringLX
06-15-2007, 01:46 PM
The update I was expecting to have today didn't happen. One of the mechanics (there are only 4) at the shop doing the work decided not to show up today. So MY mechanic is having to pick up the slack for the guy that didn't show up, which means he's working on other cars and not mine. :mad:

SebringLX
06-20-2007, 09:57 AM
Some pics of it up on the lift getting the fuel system installed...
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/sebringonlift%20001.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/sebringonlift%20003.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/sebringonlift%20004.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/sebringonlift%20005.jpg
http://projectz.home.bresnan.net/sebringonlift%20006.jpg

That's my fuel tank on the stand in the last pic, and in the background you can see my mechanic. B)

Turbodave
06-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Looks like you'll be driving it in no time...

It must be nice working on a clean newer car.

Pandemoniac
06-20-2007, 10:46 AM
Awesome stuff, man this is going to be the coolest sleeper project ever! That's encouraging news that a 420A can be built to hold some power too.

Kina an off the wall thing to mention.. but I see your car is rocking Trelleborg CV joint boots, I know that because I work in their plant setting up the molds that make them! The A B and C stamped into the top is for the quality control process, 4 boots out of each pallet for shipping are cut apart and measured with several gauges to make sure they're perfectly in spec.

Dusty_Duster
06-20-2007, 10:47 AM
Keep the updates coming! This thread is like the only reason I come to this forum! :P

SebringLX
06-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Awesome stuff, man this is going to be the coolest sleeper project ever! That's encouraging news that a 420A can be built to hold some power too.

Kina an off the wall thing to mention.. but I see your car is rocking Trelleborg CV joint boots, I know that because I work in their plant setting up the molds that make them! The A B and C stamped into the top is for the quality control process, 4 boots out of each pallet for shipping are cut apart and measured with several gauges to make sure they're perfectly in spec.
Are the newer 2.4L's still considered a 420A? I thought the 420A was the old 4 cyl engines in the Eagle/Talon/Eclipse, 1G Neons, and 1G Stratus/Cirrus/Breeze... I know there's quite a few differences between the new 2.4L found in the 2G Stratus/Sebring Sedan, NA PT Cruisers, and 2G Neon, and the old 420A. I know the Turbo 2.4L in SRT-4 is the A853, and there are only a few small differences between the blocks on the newer NA and turbo 2.4L engines.

That's interesting about the CV joint boots, I never would have known that, lol. Those are the stock boots, they were removed while the axles got cryo treated, then put back on.

Pandemoniac
06-20-2007, 12:29 PM
Aargh, I didn't mean to say 420a, meant, umm, damn.. the later name given to the the A604 automatic... somebody help me out here... I was talking about the tranny and blurted out the wrong thing!

And yeah, the boots are kinda neat, I know my shadow's boots aren't Trelleborgs and are rubber, Trelleborg boots are made out of this DuPont Rubbery-plastic called Hytrel. Damn stuff's close to indestructible.

Hey, if you could next time you look at em, could you find the part # stamped on 'em? it should be printed near the axle neck at the top. If these axles are similar enough to the old kind maybe they'll fit on my old style axles, maybe if we're still producing this boot I can, ahem, "obtain" a couple. :eyebrows: We crank out thousands a day anyways. I've already had one rubber boot blow up on me.

SebringLX
06-20-2007, 12:44 PM
Aargh, I didn't mean to say 420a, meant, umm, damn.. the later name given to the the A604 automatic... somebody help me out here... I was talking about the tranny and blurted out the wrong thing!

And yeah, the boots are kinda neat, I know my shadow's boots aren't Trelleborgs and are rubber, Trelleborg boots are made out of this DuPont Rubbery-plastic called Hytrel. Damn stuff's close to indestructible.

Hey, if you could next time you look at em, could you find the part # stamped on 'em? it should be printed near the axle neck at the top. If these axles are similar enough to the old kind maybe they'll fit on my old style axles, maybe if we're still producing this boot I can, ahem, "obtain" a couple. :eyebrows: We crank out thousands a day anyways. I've already had one rubber boot blow up on me.
The new A604 is automatic is the 41TE.

I'll see if I can find the part number on the axle.

Dusty_Duster
07-02-2007, 11:39 AM
Any updates on the turbo project???

SebringLX
07-02-2007, 02:52 PM
Any updates on the turbo project???
Almost done.

Ordered $370 worth of silicone, t-bolt clamps, and aluminized steel pipes. The silicone and t-bolt clamps got here on Saturday. The pipes are supposed to be here tomorrow.

After those parts get in and the intercooler gets plumbed, the only thing left is for the adapter for my down pipe to get fabricated, and tuning.

So I won't be making it to Carlisle this year. First of all the car isn't going to be ready in time for me to make the 4000 mile round trip. 2nd I don't think I could afford $1200 in gas even if it was ready. 3rd, work has decided to get in the way, they want to send me to Colorado Springs on the days I would need for my return trip. Looks like it will be Carlisle 2008 for me. Too bad, 'cause I was really hoping to give the car it's big debut at Carlisle this year. Looks like it will have it's debut at some other car show, probably small one much closer to me, lol.

SebringLX
07-02-2007, 07:11 PM
The pipes actually made it here today. The car should be moving under it's own power by the end of the week. I don't know that it will be ready for the road by the end of the week though. I'm hoping to be driving it no later than the end of next week.

Dusty_Duster
07-03-2007, 08:51 AM
Are you dyno-tuning it?

SebringLX
07-03-2007, 09:56 AM
Are you dyno-tuning it?
Since I haven't been able to locate a dyno anywhere in the state of Montana, no, not any time soon. I think there's a dyno in Spokane WA, which is about a 6 hour drive from here I think. I'll probably take it out there when I get a chance.

Dusty_Duster
07-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Since I haven't been able to locate a dyno anywhere in the state of Montana, no, not any time soon. I think there's a dyno in Spokane WA, which is about a 6 hour drive from here I think. I'll probably take it out there when I get a chance.

Then how are you tuning it?

SebringLX
07-03-2007, 12:02 PM
Then how are you tuning it?
Wide band... You don't need a dyno to tune. You just have to make sure that the air to fuel ratio is within acceptable levels through the entire RPM range.

I won't know how much power I'm making to the wheels until I get on a dyno, but as long as the AFR is under control, I'm good to go. I'll probably have estimated HP numbers from 1/4 ET and traps before I have a dyno sheet.

Pandemoniac
07-03-2007, 12:47 PM
That seems crazy that there wouldn't be one in the state, I went ahead and googled "dyno montana" for you and here's one, brand new. How far from you is this?
http://www.hubcapcafe.com/calendar/montana.htm

SebringLX
07-03-2007, 01:23 PM
That seems crazy that there wouldn't be one in the state, I went ahead and googled "dyno montana" for you and here's one, brand new. How far from you is this?
http://www.hubcapcafe.com/calendar/montana.htm

Well last time I googled it, I came up with nothing. Been a couple months since I did that, and I see this was posted June 2nd, so that would explain it. Missoula is a good 3 hours away, definately closer than going to Spokane!

$100 for a single run seems kind of expensive.

I guess I should have been more specific too.. there is an Engine Dyno in town here, and a Motorcycle dyno, but neither of those do me any good, lol.

Dusty_Duster
07-03-2007, 02:32 PM
Forgive me if you've already said this, but what type of ECU setup are you using? Are you using a piggy-back system or stand-alone?

It seems to me that regardless of your setup, you're going to have quite a bit of trouble tuning using just a wideband, unless by "tuning" you simply mean adjusting the fuel pressure.

SebringLX
07-03-2007, 03:24 PM
Forgive me if you've already said this, but what type of ECU setup are you using? Are you using a piggy-back system or stand-alone?

It seems to me that regardless of your setup, you're going to have quite a bit of trouble tuning using just a wideband, unless by "tuning" you simply mean adjusting the fuel pressure.
I think it's only briefly mentioned in my first post. Piggy back system... a Greddy e-Manage with a Profec E-01 (electronic boost controller that can also be used to make adjustments to the e-Manage). I also just got the e-Manage support tool, which is software and a cable for hooking a laptop into the e-Manage. The software allows for data logging and real time monitoring.

I'm not doing the "tuning" my mechanic is. I don't know exactly what or how he's going to do, but my understanding is he will use the wide-band to monitor the AFR, while setting up a fuel map on the e-Manage through the laptop interface. I think he'll also have a knock sensor hooked up (or at least he better!).

At this point, all I really care about is having a proper fuel map that keeps the AFR in an acceptable and balanced range. As long as I'm not running too lean to where my engine is going to blow up or otherwise get damaged, I'll be happy for right now.

When I can get around to having it dyno tuned, I'll worry about fine tuning things like timing, and not just fuel maps. Right now, I just want it to run without anything breaking.

SebringLX
07-13-2007, 04:14 PM
I've been out of state on business, just got back late last night. Checked on the car... so close... I had to pick up some fittings to mount the fuel pressure regulator onto the fuel rail... which is going to look sweet when it's on there the way I'm doing it. :eyebrows: Then I had to order 2 more pipes and silicone joints. My initial gues of pipes and bends was very close. Everything from the turbo to the intercooler is plumbed. Just needed a couple more pieces to connect it from the intercooler to the throttle body.

I think the parts I ordered should be here by the middle of next week... so maybe by the end of next week I'll finally get to drive the Sebring. :D

Dusty_Duster
07-16-2007, 09:44 AM
Nice! The first time you drive your turbocharged car, you're going to think "HOLY $#|7!"

And then the second time you drive it, you're going to think "I need to turn the boost up!"

WickedShelby88
07-18-2007, 12:59 PM
Your sebring project sounds just like my buddy and his 67 Nova. Everything has to be checked for fit and special ordered it seems like.

SebringLX
07-18-2007, 10:20 PM
Your sebring project sounds just like my buddy and his 67 Nova. Everything has to be checked for fit and special ordered it seems like.
Is your buddy doing something with that 67 Nova that nobody has ever done before? That's the only reason mine is going this way... nobody has done it before, lol.

The extra couple silicone couplers I needed arrived today. Just waiting on the extra mandrel bent pipes I ordered to get things finished up now. Hopefully they'll be here tomorrow. Since it's almost the end of the week already, probably going to be the end of next week before it's running.

Dusty_Duster
07-27-2007, 08:32 AM
You get that thing runnin' yet?!

SebringLX
07-27-2007, 02:08 PM
You get that thing runnin' yet?!
Nope. :mad: I got the parts I was waiting on, dropped them off to find my mechanic was on vacation. He came back, and the shop owner went on vacation, so now he's doing what the owner normally does while the other 2 guys do their thing. So absolutely nothing has been done since I dropped off the parts I was waiting for. :mad:

WickedShelby88
07-31-2007, 11:15 AM
With any older car buildup when you want to use aircraft fittings and custom radiators nothing fits the same as what someone elses car did. Your always measuring and test fitting this and that. He started with an edelbrock, then went to a demon carb yadda yadda. These guys with way too much money to spend seem like they never know what they want. At least you've went in with a plan and goals in mind. Good luck mate. Hopefully things can go gung ho when the owner gets back.

SebringLX
08-07-2007, 03:35 PM
I went and complained to the shop owner today, 'cause I'm tired of not having any progress on my car. It should have been done long ago. He explained to me the situation with one of his employees not showing up for work, and then showing up drunk when he does show up. To which I replied "So, fire him and hire a new guy...". He said he's got a new guy hired already, but this guy can't start for another 2 weeks, and that he had been relying on my mechanic to fix the mess this other emlpoyee has created (take care the repairs of the vehicles he was supposed to be responsible for).

I thought was going to have to get a little upset with him at this point, but I didn't have to. Before I could say anything else, he told me he would make sure that my mechanic got at least 3 to 4 hours a day to work on my car, starting tomorrow. That means my car should be done soon, 'cause the only thing left to do, is get the down pipe mounted, and get it running.

Dusty_Duster
08-09-2007, 12:12 PM
Good help is hard to find these days. Don't get me started on the turd-brain that did my engine swap.

Pandemoniac
08-10-2007, 11:57 PM
That's why I do my own work. Of course the problem with that is I'm about the least reliable person to get something done, but when I finally finish it at least it's done right!

Dusty_Duster
09-11-2007, 11:01 AM
Is this thing running yet?!

SebringLX
10-03-2007, 04:59 PM
Is this thing running yet?!
Yes and no. :\

I'm very upset with this right now. I took some time off to get married and go on a honeymoon... should have been done long before that happend... still isn't done after I got back.

I found out today that this shop doesn't even have a wideband! The owner told me they had one and would tune with it when I dropped it off 8 months ago... Now today I am talking to my mechanic and he tells me they don't have one. (*@&#$%)(*&@$)^(*&@#)(*&@# WTF?! He hadn't done anything because there was an air flow error on the e-Manage and he wanted to know what I wanted him to do about it.

So after finding out that they don't even have a wideband, they moves up my schedule for buying one! I told him to just mount the freaking exhaust and intercooler, then I would take care of the rest. I don't have welding equipment, so I just need the stuff that requires welding finished. I can tune it myself... I just need it to be able to drive the 4 blocks from the shop to my house. The car starts, it's just stupid rich and stumbles all over the place... idles like crap. I can take care of that myself though real easy.

SebringLX
10-18-2007, 03:56 PM
Everything but the exhaust and the tuning is done. Stopped in today and was told they aren't going to do the exhaust for me. They don't have the tools for that either apparently. They were just going to end up farming it out, so they gave me the option of finding some place to do it on my own. So that's exactly what I am going to do.

I'm talking with the shop that has the dyno out in Missoula to see if they can finish the exhaust for me. Sounds like they are going to be able to. So I will just rent a car hauler, take the car out to Missoula on a weekend, get the exhaust hooked up, and get it tuned. I think the earliest I will be able to do that is November 11th. So right now I'm trying to find someone who has a trailer I can borrow, just so I can tow the car the 5 blocks back to my house from the shop it's at now. I want it out of there.

turbovanman²
10-18-2007, 04:51 PM
Just saw this thread, don't know how I missed it, :(

Anyhow, nice work, it takes a special person to do what your doing.

A few questions if you don't mind,

Thats a 4speed right? is the stock computer controlling it or letting the piggy back alter it?

Did you fix the turbo drain hitting the axle?

Are you keeping the A/C?

The power coating is unreal, very nice, :thumb: I would have painted the head and block though, ;)

I can't imagine the hours you got charged as doing my swap, it was insane.

Keep us updated.

SebringLX
10-18-2007, 06:25 PM
Just saw this thread, don't know how I missed it, :(

Anyhow, nice work, it takes a special person to do what your doing.

A few questions if you don't mind,

Thats a 4speed right? is the stock computer controlling it or letting the piggy back alter it?

Did you fix the turbo drain hitting the axle?

Are you keeping the A/C?

The power coating is unreal, very nice, :thumb: I would have painted the head and block though, ;)

I can't imagine the hours you got charged as doing my swap, it was insane.

Keep us updated.
41TE is a 4 speed yes. The stock computer is controlling it. The e-Manage (piggy-back) can't do any transmission controlling anyway. Actually I am getting rid of the e-Manage and won't be using it at all. I am an authorzed SCT Dealer, and have the ability to manipulate the PCM directly. I will be configuring the PCM for 3 bar map and tip, programming the fuel, spark, transmission, and everything else, so it's all running off the PCM. No need for any type of piggy-back anymore.

The oil return shouldn't hit the axle. If you look back on page 4 there is a picture of it... it is kind of close to the axle, but shouldn't hit it.

Yes I kept the A/C.

I know... after it went back in... I wished I had powder coated the block too. I like the natrual aluminum look on the head though. The original black paint on the block is still in good shape though, just needs to be cleaned up. I have a TON of cleaning to do. The car has been sitting in this shop for over 8 months now... so it has 8 months worth of shop dust all over it. :yuck:

turbovanman²
10-18-2007, 06:47 PM
41TE is a 4 speed yes. The stock computer is controlling it. The e-Manage (piggy-back) can't do any transmission controlling anyway. Actually I am getting rid of the e-Manage and won't be using it at all. I am an authorzed SCT Dealer, and have the ability to manipulate the PCM directly. I will be configuring the PCM for 3 bar map and tip, programming the fuel, spark, transmission, and everything else, so it's all running off the PCM. No need for any type of piggy-back anymore.

The oil return shouldn't hit the axle. If you look back on page 4 there is a picture of it... it is kind of close to the axle, but shouldn't hit it.

Yes I kept the A/C.

I know... after it went back in... I wished I had powder coated the block too. I like the natrual aluminum look on the head though. The original black paint on the block is still in good shape though, just needs to be cleaned up. I have a TON of cleaning to do. The car has been sitting in this shop for over 8 months now... so it has 8 months worth of shop dust all over it. :yuck:

What is SCT? did you just become one hence the change from using a piggy back?

Nice, you should be able to make that trans shift nicely. I need to find a 4 speed case from Mexico and make mine a 4speed auto, ;)

SebringLX
10-18-2007, 07:23 PM
What is SCT? did you just become one hence the change from using a piggy back?

Nice, you should be able to make that trans shift nicely. I need to find a 4 speed case from Mexico and make mine a 4speed auto, ;)
Check out www.sctflash.com for more info on SCT. It's a hand-held tuner that plugs into the ODBII port to flash the PCM. I write the tunes on my computer, load them onto the tuner, then flash the PCM with it. I can tune most 1996 and newer Dodge vehicles with it.

Couple reasons behind switching.... If you tune with a piggy-back, and that piggy-back doesn't directly control the fuel injectors... timing can get screwed up, and you can end up running way too much timing. You can get an injector harness for the e-Manage, but I don't have it. The main reason is, programming the PCM to do what you want it to do, is much better than using a piggy-back to trick the PCM into seeing conditions that don't exist to get it to do what you want it to do.

Aries_Turbo
10-18-2007, 10:50 PM
did you figure out which tables to modify with the SCT stuff? I know there was some talk about trying to find out when DodgeZ bought one and was irritated that there was little documentation.

Brian

SebringLX
10-18-2007, 11:00 PM
did you figure out which tables to modify with the SCT stuff? I know there was some talk about trying to find out when DodgeZ bought one and was irritated that there was little documentation.

Brian
Yeah he got the "Pro Racer" package that is limited to just his SRT-4. I became an authorized dealer... I can tune all supported Dodge vehicles. The software takes some getting used to, but I am getting it figured out. I am tuning a 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 2WD 4.7L V8 with it. So far I've been able to shave almost a full second off his 1/8 mile times. I've also gained him 6 mph on his 1/8 mile traps. Completely destroyed his traction. He's had to go out and buy some Cal-Tracs, and is getting some slicks. His last run was a 9.7 @ 72mph. Not done tuning yet either.

turbovanman²
10-19-2007, 07:39 PM
Very cool. Are you using a dyno or just running around the street?

SebringLX
10-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Very cool. Are you using a dyno or just running around the street?
On the dyno...


I towed my car home behind my truck with a tow bar last night after I got off work.

I did not pay the shop a single cent beyond what I paid them 4 months ago. I walked in on my lunch break yesterday and asked for my car back. First my mechanic told me to go talk to the owner. Then the owner asks me if we are "square". I tell him I paid him 4 months ago, and I have the invoice in my truck. He asks me to go over the invoice with my mechanic to make sure there wasn't something that they needed to bill me for. I show my mechanic the invoice and say "As far as I'm concerned, I'm all paid up, it's been here 8 months, and I'm picking it up unfinished." He just stands there dead silent for a few minutes, then says "Well, there are a few things I didn't charge you for yet... but I won't tell the boss about it, I'll just call it even.". Damn skippy you will!


Today I had a friend come over and help me push it into my garage.

Here it is out in the driveway with 8 months worth of shop dust on it.
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/turbosebringhome1.jpg
Here it is safe and sound in the garage:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/turbosebringhome2.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/turbosebringhome3.jpg

I gave it a quick rinse and whipe down with a towel before putting it in the garage. I've got to get the front end put back together, then put it on a trailer and take it out to Missoula to get the exhaust finished and get it tuned. Putting the front end back together isn't going to be easy. I have a box of bolts for it, nothing is labeled.

I also need to fill up the power steering fluid, and it looks like I need to put transmission fuild in too. The trunk and back seat are filled with misc parts. Some old, some that need to go on. All in boxes in no particular order. At least it's home now!

turbovanman²
10-20-2007, 03:40 PM
Looking good, :amen:

moparfwdsleeper
10-21-2007, 12:41 PM
maybe im missing something... But 8months? Any reason to why it wasn't completed?

turbovanman²
10-21-2007, 03:05 PM
maybe im missing something... But 8months? Any reason to why it wasn't completed?

Yeah, the shop took forever, :(

But really, it looks like that shop doesn't really do that type of thing so 8 months isn't that bad. It also depends on how much was paid too.

Vigo
10-21-2007, 04:06 PM
better not to ask i think? Just keep us updated on the work you are getting done and how its coming along!

SebringLX
10-21-2007, 07:56 PM
I paid them $3200 over 4 months ago...

Today I cleaned out the inside of the car a little... took all the boxes of misc parts out. Found some stuff that I think doesn't even belong to my car. Then there's a bunch of other stuff that I'm not even sure where it goes. I couldn't find the right bolts for putting the front end back together. Looks like there is a small oil leak somewhere. I saw a few quarter size spots under the oil pan when I looked under the car today.

turbovanman²
10-21-2007, 07:58 PM
I paid them $3200 over 4 months ago...

.

Wow, thats not bad, :clap:

SebringLX
10-23-2007, 08:09 PM
I went to my local Dodge dealer yesterday... ordered 3 bar map and tips sensors, picked up a case of ATF+4, and a quart of Mobil 1 0-40W.

I put 6 quarts of ATF+4 and the quart of Mobil 1 into the transmission today, then I made a little video. The quaility isn't all that great since it's just the cam and mic built into my laptop, but here it is!

http://www.aerospheric.com/sebringruns.wmv

Vigo
10-24-2007, 12:09 AM
yeh thats really not that bad at all!!! i paid almost 3k for a paint job that im not very happy with.. but it didnt ruin my life, i was expecting to name a bigger number.

SebringLX
10-24-2007, 10:08 AM
yeh thats really not that bad at all!!! i paid almost 3k for a paint job that im not very happy with.. but it didnt ruin my life, i was expecting to name a bigger number.

$3200 wasn't all labor either now that I think of it. Some gaskets, belts, a water pump, and some fluid was included in that I think. Labor was for removal of engine and transmission, rebuilding the engine with SRT-4 internals, installing the turbo, putting the engine back in, mounting the intercooler, and running the intercooler piping. Also had the e-Manage and Profec E-01 connected, although I won't be using the e-Manage anymore. The return line was run, fuel pressure regulator mounted, and all vacuum lines run.

Since a few people were having trouble getting to the video I posted of it running... I put the video on YouTube... here's the YouTube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrT_BBIE2wI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrT_BBIE2wI

turbovanman²
10-25-2007, 02:20 PM
$3200 wasn't all labor either now that I think of it. Some gaskets, belts, a water pump, and some fluid was included in that I think. Labor was for removal of engine and transmission, rebuilding the engine with SRT-4 internals, installing the turbo, putting the engine back in, mounting the intercooler, and running the intercooler piping. Also had the e-Manage and Profec E-01 connected, although I won't be using the e-Manage anymore. The return line was run, fuel pressure regulator mounted, and all vacuum lines run.



Wow, thats really cheap, that should be at least $5000, ;)

I'll check the vid out at home. :nod:

SebringLX
10-29-2007, 10:38 AM
I think I found a solution to my O2 housing/exhaust problem. I've started talking with Needswings (they made the downpipe I have), and they may make a custom O2 housing for me. :thumb:

TurboGLH
10-29-2007, 02:05 PM
I think I found a solution to my O2 housing/exhaust problem. I've started talking with Needswings (they made the downpipe I have), and they may make a custom O2 housing for me. :thumb:

The Hahn o2 doesn't work correctly?

SebringLX
10-29-2007, 04:13 PM
The Hahn o2 doesn't work correctly?
Nope.

For one thing, it starts out at 2" on the turbo side then goes out to 3" on the other end... I think full 3" would be much better.

The main issue is it ends right next to the transmission mount. It needs to be inch or 2 more towards the passenger side. It also needs to end about 4 to 6 inches closer to the ground.

GLHS592
10-29-2007, 06:31 PM
Why didn't they put the turbo motor in those cars at the factory? I really like my wife's Stratus. It's about the right size and the 2.4 turbo would have made it a really cool car.

Aries_Turbo
10-29-2007, 10:29 PM
they did.... in mexico lol.

Vigo
10-30-2007, 03:10 AM
probly CAFE.

SebringLX
10-30-2007, 09:52 AM
they did.... in mexico lol.
Yup, both the 1st and 2nd gen cloud cars in Mexico came with a turbo 2.4L as the high end engine option, instead of the V6 that we got here.

Pandemoniac
10-30-2007, 10:10 AM
I thought mexico sold cheaper lower-octane gas on average than america... surprising the turbo model was sold there if that was the case.

SebringLX
10-30-2007, 07:41 PM
Anyone know where the TIP sensor goes on a JR body? My 3 bar MAP and TIP sensors came in today. I can't find my TIP sensor... starting to think I don't have one. :confused2:

TurboGLH
10-30-2007, 09:27 PM
Anyone know where the TIP sensor goes on a JR body? My 3 bar MAP and TIP sensors came in today. I can't find my TIP sensor... starting to think I don't have one. :confused2:

You probably don't have one, there would be no need on a NA car.

SebringLX
10-31-2007, 10:04 AM
You probably don't have one, there would be no need on a NA car.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. I guess I'll try to return that part.

turbovanman²
10-31-2007, 04:42 PM
Yup, both the 1st and 2nd gen cloud cars in Mexico came with a turbo 2.4L as the high end engine option, instead of the V6 that we got here.

That is really bizarre, wonder why Mexico got the fun cars and we got the blah cars?????? :confused:

Vigo
11-01-2007, 05:59 PM
^ elevation. our v6 cars in mexico city would run like dogs.

glhs0426
11-11-2007, 12:31 AM
The TIP or throttle inlet pressure sensor is plumbed before the throttle body and intercooler. It is used for pressure, both inlet and atmospheric. The computer uses this sensor for calculating intercooler efficiency and altitude for fuel and spark.

Dusty_Duster
11-14-2007, 10:07 AM
So is the Sebring running now? Get some pics up!

SebringLX
11-14-2007, 10:45 AM
So is the Sebring running now? Get some pics up!

Look on page 6... there's pics AND a video.

SebringLX
02-25-2008, 02:51 PM
A little update... Due to the extreme cold we get during the winter here in Montana, the car has been sitting in my garage untouched for the past few months.

Last week we were reaching into upper 40's lower 50's, so I decided to hook the battery up to a charger. Started right up on Friday. Saturday I started it again, and tweaked the idle on the e-Manage. Idles a lot smoother now, I let it run for about 10 to 15 minutes then shut it down.

Today it's back down into the 20's and we got a bunch of snow last night, so it's on pause until it warms up again. With a tax refund and warmer weather on the way, I may actually get this project finished soon... It's been a year since it went down now!

Turbodave
02-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Projects alway take twice as long as anticipated, keep at it. Can't wait to see it all sorted out and tearing up the streets.

WickedShelby88
02-28-2008, 02:38 AM
I think you've made extremely good progress. Theres a lot of guys out there I know who have started projects and years down the road never continued. +1 for your dedication. Shoot I used to work for a shop and did an engine swap in a 95 Chevy Blazer full size that ended up costing the guy nearly 4k. That was for a mere TBI injected 350 crate engine. You did good my friend.

mario03SRT
02-28-2008, 07:19 AM
That is really bizarre, wonder why Mexico got the fun cars and we got the blah cars?????? :confused:

Have you ever seen the air pollution in Mexico City? You can eat it with a spoon!:yuck:

turbovanman²
02-29-2008, 02:19 PM
I think you've made extremely good progress. Theres a lot of guys out there I know who have started projects and years down the road never continued. +1 for your dedication. Shoot I used to work for a shop and did an engine swap in a 95 Chevy Blazer full size that ended up costing the guy nearly 4k. That was for a mere TBI injected 350 crate engine. You did good my friend.


I am doing a job like that, I quoted him $5000 to cover my azz, he said go for it, :nod: :clap:

WickedShelby88
03-02-2008, 06:56 AM
I just glad I wasn't the guy who got stuck with tuning that pro crap holley injection system in a cammed 454 stuffed in an 81 firebird formula. Talk about a combo that the speed density generic system didn't like. MS would of been nice.

SebringLX
04-03-2008, 03:49 PM
I had an appointment to get the exhaust connected on the Turbo Sebring this morning at 8 AM. I had to go rent a trailer to get it over there. I get to the rental place at about 7:40, realize I forgot my drivers license, have to go all the way back home to get it, then back to the rental place. It's like 7:55 when I get back, they get the trailer hooked up, only to find that the battery for the hydraulic tilt system is dead on it. So I have to wait arund for it to charge. Get back to my house to pick up the car around 8:30, finally get the car over to the exhaust shop at 9. I'm an hour late, so of course now my car has to wait for a bay to open up instead of getting right in.

Exhaust shop calls me at 12 telling me they got me up on the lift, but they need me to come back and explain what exactly I need them to do. I show them how everything needs to get connected. There are 2 very hill billy-ish looking like guys (dudes that worked there) just standing there staring up at my car from under it like , lol. They should hopefully have everything ready to go by the time I get off work tomorrow, since they didn't get started on it until almost 1 today.

They will be connecting the exhaust, installing my electronic cut-out plate, installing the rear stock O2 sensor, and installing the Wideband O2 sensor I just finally got last week. On the way to work from the exhaust shop, I stopped by the parts counter at my local Dodge dealer and picked up all the snaps I was missing to put my front bumper cover back on. $68 freaking dollars for a bag full of plastic snaps! They were like $3.45 each... these things look like they should cost 50 cents at most!

Before I took the car in, I updated the firmware on my e-Manage. Car fires right up, and idles nicely now. I drove it up onto the trailer, and drove it off into the lot at the exhaust shop. I will be driving it home from the exhaust shop when it's ready. So hopefully tomorrow evening I will be driving my car again instead of my truck. I can't wait!

Aries_Turbo
04-03-2008, 09:44 PM
cool. hope it works out. :)

the hillbilly exhaust guys have mandrel bends right?

Brian

SebringLX
04-03-2008, 09:50 PM
cool. hope it works out. :)

the hillbilly exhaust guys have mandrel bends right?

Brian
Yes they do.

I stopped by the exhaust shot on my "lunch" break... which was 4:30 PM 'cause I work different hours today... anyway, they already had most of the cutting and welding done. They extended the down pipe in a couple spots and changed the angle of it slightly towards where it connects to the O2 housing. Ended up not modifying the O2 housing at all.

I can't wait to pick it up after work tomorrow!

Aries_Turbo
04-03-2008, 10:19 PM
cool!

vids please. :)

Brian

SebringLX
04-04-2008, 08:12 PM
Here are the new videos of driving the Turbo Sebring home from the exhaust shop. I'm not done modifying the front end, so that's why it isn't on yet. The wideband isn't completely connected, I only had them install the sensors, I have to remove the center console and run the wires up into the cab to connect the rest of it. Even without the wideband connected, it was easy to tell that the car is running very rich. When I got home and looked at the e-Manage, I noticed the settings I had made weren't saved to it like I thought they were, so that's partly why it was running a lot richer than it should have been.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/v/rteOFTbdRBw
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/v/bczB8TZozDU

If the videos don't work right away, try again a little later. They still said they were processing after I uploaded and posted here.

I have 2 more short videos that I will post later, have to get my family some dinner now.

Aries_Turbo
04-04-2008, 09:42 PM
make sure you hook that wideband up soon or youll foul out the sensor.

glad to see it run though. :)

Brian

SebringLX
04-04-2008, 11:25 PM
make sure you hook that wideband up soon or youll foul out the sensor.

glad to see it run though. :)

Brian

I have the whole inside torn apart right now. I'm trying to get to the hole in the trans tunnel that the cable from the transmission to the shift assembly runs up. When the car was up on the lift, it looked like the perfect spot to run the wires for the wideband and my electronic cut-out. I can't seem to get to it though. I have the dash half off, can't get the other half to come off. :\

It's getting late, so giving up on it for tonight.

SebringLX
04-06-2008, 10:19 PM
I spent almost 4 hours working on the Turbo Sebring today. I got a lot done, but there's still more to do. I got half of the wideband hooked up, half of the electronic cut-out hooked up, and most of the auto-stock conversion done. I also got the rear O2 sensor reconnected, and most of the work done for the front bumper cover.


First couple pics are working on the autostick conversion:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20001.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20002.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20003.jpg

Some parts of the autostick cluster I had sitting in a box for the last year looked damaged, so I used parts from my original cluster to make it look nice. The white face gauges from the autostick cluster did not have chrome rings around them like the black face ones I had in the car. I was easily able to move them to the white face gauges. Hopefully everything will work. I couldn't find my electrical tape, so I didn't finish splicing wires yet.

Next few pics are running the wires for the wideband and electric cut-out through the hole in the trans tunnel:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20004.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20005.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20006.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20007.jpg

The pic is modifying the front bumper cover to go back on:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Turbo%20Sebring%20Progress%20008.jpg

As you can see I cut the fog light holes out. I still need to sand it, then put some mesh over it, to make it look nice.

Hopefully I will be able to finish everything up tomorrow after work.

Aries_Turbo
04-07-2008, 09:32 PM
looks good.... minus one thing ;)

i hope that you arent just running those cables through the hole in the floor beside the grommet.... they will be likely to get cut. i recommend splitting the rubber grommet up the side and tucking them beside the original wire/cable going through the floor inside the grommet and sealing it up with a little silicone.

good work though. :)

Brian

SebringLX
04-07-2008, 10:55 PM
looks good.... minus one thing ;)

i hope that you arent just running those cables through the hole in the floor beside the grommet.... they will be likely to get cut. i recommend splitting the rubber grommet up the side and tucking them beside the original wire/cable going through the floor inside the grommet and sealing it up with a little silicone.

good work though. :)

Brian

Hmm good point, I'll have to do that.

I screwed up though. Following directions here: http://www.f-5performance.com/instructions/autostick.htm I accidently cut the yellow wire on the "C121 plug" too close to the plug. It is no longer possible to splice it back together, there just isn't enough wire sticking out of the plug. The other side of the plug does not have a yellow wire. Without it connected, I'm not getting power back at the shifter. I guess I am going to the parts counter at my local dealer on lunch tomorrow to see if I can get a new plug. :\

Aries_Turbo
04-07-2008, 11:21 PM
how short did you cut it?

you might be able to take apart the plug and extract the pin and take a spare plug that has the same pins and swap it in there.

back to the topic of wire protection.... just a tip for anyone... when doing custom wiring, take a look at any wiring that is added and follow it and see if there is any thing around that could abrade or cut it or vibrate it till it breaks. at those points, add little bits of rubber/splitloom tubing and secure loose sections. it really prevents issues later. :)

Brian

SebringLX
04-08-2008, 01:00 AM
how short did you cut it?

you might be able to take apart the plug and extract the pin and take a spare plug that has the same pins and swap it in there.

back to the topic of wire protection.... just a tip for anyone... when doing custom wiring, take a look at any wiring that is added and follow it and see if there is any thing around that could abrade or cut it or vibrate it till it breaks. at those points, add little bits of rubber/splitloom tubing and secure loose sections. it really prevents issues later. :)

Brian

I figured it out after I took a break and thought about it. What I did, didn't matter. The wires only exist on one side of the plug. It WOULD have had the same wires on the other side, had my car been originally equipped with the autostick feature, but since I was adding it in... nothing to worry about. Just spliced the wire together to the other harness I had... works now.

SebringLX
04-08-2008, 02:14 PM
I have another problem now... :\

The metal bracket on the autostick shift assembly that holds the cable going to the transmission is not the same as the one it replaced. So now the trans cable does not fit into the new bracket. The new bracket is shaped like a keyhole sort of (square going into a circle). The one that was originally in the car is square with a small hole drilled next to it that a piece snaps into to hold it into place. The cable not sitting in the bracket is what is causing me to not be able to shift into D. There's nothing hold it into place to give enough resistance to pull the cable out of the sleeve it's in far enough to get into D.

I tried to remove the metal bracket from the rest of the old shift assembly, but there's no way to get it off without breaking something. Short of having someone cut the bracket off of both of them, and weld the correct one back onto the autostick assembly... I'm not sure what I can do here.

88_pacifica
04-08-2008, 03:43 PM
I have another problem now... :\

The metal bracket on the autostick shift assembly that holds the cable going to the transmission is not the same as the one it replaced. So now the trans cable does not fit into the new bracket. The new bracket is shaped like a keyhole sort of (square going into a circle). The one that was originally in the car is square with a small hole drilled next to it that a piece snaps into to hold it into place. The cable not sitting in the bracket is what is causing me to not be able to shift into D. There's nothing hold it into place to give enough resistance to pull the cable out of the sleeve it's in far enough to get into D.

I tried to remove the metal bracket from the rest of the old shift assembly, but there's no way to get it off without breaking something. Short of having someone cut the bracket off of both of them, and weld the correct one back onto the autostick assembly... I'm not sure what I can do here.

pics...?

SebringLX
04-08-2008, 05:13 PM
pics...?

I'll take some when I get home from work in about an hour to work on it.

After sitting here at work thinking about it... I think I can just bust out the dremel and grind away at the slot on the bracket until it fits. Did a little searching on my 2nd Generation Stratus and Sebring Sedan forum, and someone else had this exact same issue when they did an autostick conversion a while back. They did the same thing I was thinking... ground away at it until it fit.

88_pacifica
04-08-2008, 06:37 PM
I'll take some when I get home from work in about an hour to work on it.

After sitting here at work thinking about it... I think I can just bust out the dremel and grind away at the slot on the bracket until it fits. Did a little searching on my 2nd Generation Stratus and Sebring Sedan forum, and someone else had this exact same issue when they did an autostick conversion a while back. They did the same thing I was thinking... ground away at it until it fit.

Ha.. that's exactly what I was going to suggest as soon as I saw the two side by side. Before I inserted the old foot-in-mouth, I figured I should see the problem firsthand... ;)

SebringLX
04-09-2008, 09:48 AM
Ha.. that's exactly what I was going to suggest as soon as I saw the two side by side. Before I inserted the old foot-in-mouth, I figured I should see the problem firsthand... ;)

Well that's exactly what worked. Less than 2 minutes with the dremel and I got it to fit.

Drove it to work this morning... only 1.5 miles door do door... Now instead of running too rich, I am running way too lean. Idle started out way too rich... 10.3:1 at idle... then just very light throttle, never got above 2.5K RPM or 45MPH (trying to stay out of boost for right now, boost should kick in at 3K RPM). Light throttle was hitting 15:1 :( Would richen back up into the 11:1 range when I let off the gas. Super lean spike to 19:1 a couple times after slowing to a stop then giving it a little gas, almost stalled out twice from that. Got real hot for a few seconds, oil temp warning came on, I pulled over, and it cooled back down in less than 10 seconds. Really scary. :(

Turbodave
04-09-2008, 10:42 AM
With it running as rich as it has I would change the oil right away, If the oil gets too diluted with fuel that can cause death to all those new parts really quick.

SebringLX
04-09-2008, 11:10 AM
With it running as rich as it has I would change the oil right away, If the oil gets too diluted with fuel that can cause death to all those new parts really quick.

It's brand new oil, this is only the 2nd time it's ever been driven since the engine was rebuilt. How long of running too rich will cause the oil to get diluted? I was only planning on running it for 500 miles with the oil that's in it, then switching to full synthetic...

Turbodave
04-09-2008, 11:14 AM
It's brand new oil, this is only the 2nd time it's ever been driven since the engine was rebuilt. How long of running too rich will cause the oil to get diluted? I was only planning on running it for 500 miles with the oil that's in it, then switching to full synthetic...

A freind of mine (who ironicly owns a quick lube) had some problems getting his fiero project car to start after we put re-done heads on it. The car flooded out, we cleaned the plugs, got it going and it spun a bearing the next day.

I would say at the very least pull the dipstick and smell the oil, if it smells like fuel change it.

SebringLX
04-09-2008, 02:48 PM
Ok, it looks like I have a bad TPS. TPS voltage stays at 0.05V no matter where the throttle is at. I can't get above 2000 RPM without it running out of fuel, or at least that's what it feels, sounds, and looks like (looking at the wideband).

If my thinking is correct (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the ECU thinks the throttle is always closed, so even though it's actually opening, it's not telling the injectors to give it any more fuel. Throttle opens, more air comes in, but no more fuel than what was at idle.... thus making it run leaner the farther the throttle opens. Does that sound right?

Seems like if I replace my TPS, it should be fine?

88_pacifica
04-09-2008, 04:42 PM
Ok, it looks like I have a bad TPS. TPS voltage stays at 0.05V no matter where the throttle is at. I can't get above 2000 RPM without it running out of fuel, or at least that's what it feels, sounds, and looks like (looking at the wideband).

If my thinking is correct (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the ECU thinks the throttle is always closed, so even though it's actually opening, it's not telling the injectors to give it any more fuel. Throttle opens, more air comes in, but no more fuel than what was at idle.... thus making it run leaner the farther the throttle opens. Does that sound right?

Seems like if I replace my TPS, it should be fine?

Before you do that I would make sure that there is a signal coming TO the TPS and that it changeses depending on the actual throttle acceleration of the motor. If there is no signal change when you do this, then you know the TPS is probably fine and there is either a wiring issue or the ECM is needing checked more thoroughly....

SebringLX
04-09-2008, 05:04 PM
Before you do that I would make sure that there is a signal coming TO the TPS and that it changeses depending on the actual throttle acceleration of the motor. If there is no signal change when you do this, then you know the TPS is probably fine and there is either a wiring issue or the ECM is needing checked more thoroughly....

My TPS has 3 wires. I know which one sends the signal to the ECU, but I'm not sure what the other 2 do (I figured they were power and ground, but not sure which is which). How exactly am I to check this? Should I turn the car on (without starting it), pull the plug off the sensor, and touch the voltage meter to 2 of the 3 prongs inside the plug?

I am 99% sure the TPS is bad. When I took it out of my old TB to move it to my new TB, before I ever took the car into a shop to have them do most of the work, I cleaned the TPS. I think I may have cleaned it improperly and damaged it. I never drove the car after I cleaned it, I towed it to the shop, and towed it home. It's been over a year since I cleaned the TB, the car has only been driven 3 times now, and it's been exactly the same way all 3 times... no change in the TPS voltage when I hit the throttle.

SebringLX
04-09-2008, 06:35 PM
My TPS has 3 wires. I know which one sends the signal to the ECU, but I'm not sure what the other 2 do (I figured they were power and ground, but not sure which is which). How exactly am I to check this? Should I turn the car on (without starting it), pull the plug off the sensor, and touch the voltage meter to 2 of the 3 prongs inside the plug?


Ok I did exactly what I said here... I am getting 4.8V to the sensor, so looks like it's definately the sensor.

Here's some new pics of the front end with the bumper cover back on.


http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Front%20001.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Front%20002.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/Front%20003.jpg

It's just sitting on there right now, I still have to put the mesh on the fog light holes. Needs a good cleaning too.

Aries_Turbo
04-09-2008, 06:54 PM
on the TPS, the outer two are usually +5 and GND with the center one being the feed to the ECU.

Brian

SebringLX
04-10-2008, 12:55 PM
on the TPS, the outer two are usually +5 and GND with the center one being the feed to the ECU.

Brian

Correct.

After playing arround some more, problem seems to be that the blade sticking out of the TB where the sensor mounts, is not turning the sensor. I took the sensor off, and measured the voltage while turning the sensor with a screw driver, and it went up. The TB I have is an aftermarket SRT-4 TB, the sensor mounts to it exactly the same as it did on my stock TB, however the blades look a little different. I got my old TB out, put the sensor on it, and opened the throttle plate by hand on it while measure voltage. Voltage went up when I did that too.

Maybe I need an SRT-4 TPS? I can't put my stock TB on, it won't mount to the SRT-4 intake manifold I have on there now. I can't put the other intake manifold on, 'cause the fuel rail won't work with it...

WickedShelby88
04-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Yeah I'd try an SRT4 TPS or see if you can modify something to make it work. sometimes you have to clock the TPS differently as well. Can you take some pics of the differences?

SebringLX
04-10-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah I'd try an SRT4 TPS or see if you can modify something to make it work. sometimes you have to clock the TPS differently as well. Can you take some pics of the differences?

I don't have pictuers, but I was able to look at pictures and see that I do in fact need an SRT-4 TPS. Thank God for Car Quest. Car Quest had pictures of both my stock sensor, and the SRT-4 sensor. The little tabs inside the TPS on the SRT-4 sensor that the blade coming up out of the TB are supposed to catch on and turn, are in a different position on it than on my stock sensor. The plug is at a different angle on the SRT-4 sensor, but it looks to be the exact same size and shape, so it should plug right in on my car. Car Quest will have one for me by tomorrow, so first thing tomorrow morning I'll be picking up the SRT-4 TPS and trying it out.

WickedShelby88
04-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Good luck. That should definitely wake it up power wise.

Aries_Turbo
04-10-2008, 06:24 PM
be sure to do a double check on the voltage coming out of the center conductor when you put the SRT sensor in. some sensors have the +5 and the GND wires backwards and it will send the opposite signal to the ECU, IE WOT signals at idle and closed throttle signals at WOT. TBI and old school turbododge cars have this difference.

Brian

WickedShelby88
04-11-2008, 03:16 AM
Thats one thing you don't want to learn the hard way.

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 10:10 AM
be sure to do a double check on the voltage coming out of the center conductor when you put the SRT sensor in. some sensors have the +5 and the GND wires backwards and it will send the opposite signal to the ECU, IE WOT signals at idle and closed throttle signals at WOT. TBI and old school turbododge cars have this difference.

Brian

Well the SRT-4 TPS did turn out to be the reverse style. So I just need to swap the 2 outside wires around and it will work for me? I tested it with the car off... it's 5V with no throttle, and drops down to about 1V when I push the throttle all the way to the floor. Opposite of what the stock sensor did.

WickedShelby88
04-11-2008, 12:10 PM
I think when you swap the pins it reverses the polarity of the sensor the voltage increases in the opposite or correct direction in your case.

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 12:17 PM
I think when you swap the pins it reverses the polarity of the sensor the voltage increases in the opposite or correct direction in your case.

That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to make sure before I did it. I am going home for lunch in about 30 minutes, going to make the switch then, hopefully drive it to work after that.

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Alright, took me a couple tries, but I figured out which wires to change. Runs much better now. I can get over 2K RPM without running out of fuel. Still running lean though. I'm only running around at very light throttle and it's sitting around 14.5:1 to 15:1... I think I'd feel more comfortable if that was richer. Kind of scared to go WOT until I can richen that up.

WickedShelby88
04-11-2008, 02:36 PM
I'd definitely take your time on getting it dialed in. Its always better not to push the car until your sure you have enough fuel up top to keep yourself from making a set of ashtrays.

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I'd definitely take your time on getting it dialed in. Its always better not to push the car until your sure you have enough fuel up top to keep yourself from making a set of ashtrays.

I don't plan on pushing it at all until I have at least 500 miles on the new motor. I would like to get those miles on it and get it dialed in before the SCCA races next weekend. We'll see though. Definately going to take it slow. I've put a whole 9 miles on it since I got it running. Haven't had it above 45 MPH yet (highest speed limit between my house and work).

Aries_Turbo
04-11-2008, 04:49 PM
yeah you just needed to swap the outer wires.

its going to be lean at part throttle but should richen up once in boost.

youre running a SRT map in the stock sebring ecu right? SRT injectors? larger fuel pump with return line and boost referenced regulator?

Brian

turbovanman²
04-11-2008, 05:13 PM
Awesome job, front end looks great, :clap: :nod: :partywoot:

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 05:23 PM
yeah you just needed to swap the outer wires.

its going to be lean at part throttle but should richen up once in boost.

youre running a SRT map in the stock sebring ecu right? SRT injectors? larger fuel pump with return line and boost referenced regulator?

Brian

Actually it turned out that I needed to swap the ground wire with the middle wire. The first thing I did was swap the outer 2 wires, that didn't work. That made it read 0.5v and decrease to 0.1V when pressing the throttle. After switching the ground with the middle, it reads 0.1V at closed throttle, and almost all the way up to 5V at WOT.

I am still running the stock Sebring map since I am unable to flash my ECU at this time (SCT doesn't have the NGC1 support finished yet, and I happen to have a very early build 04 that still has an NGC1 instead of the NGC3). I'm running a Greddy e-Manage as a piggy back in the mean time. Injectors are 750cc SRT-4 injectors from Deatschwerkz. Yes I have a return line and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. The fuel pump is still the stock Walbro 190lph. I tried to have a 255lph Walbro put in, but it didn't work out. The stock pump should be OK for a decent amount of boost. I plan on adding an external fuel pump in series with the stock in-tank pump later on when I'm ready to go for the extreme PSI.

I have a fuel pressure gauge sitting on my fuel rail, it reads 58psi at idle, which is stock fuel pressure on these. Might be nice if I had one inside the cabin, 'cause I obviously can't look at it while I'm driving.

MiniMopar
04-11-2008, 05:32 PM
Actually it turned out that I needed to swap the ground wire with the middle wire. The first thing I did was swap the outer 2 wires, that didn't work. That made it read 0.5v and decrease to 0.1V when pressing the throttle. After switching the ground with the middle, it reads 0.1V at closed throttle, and almost all the way up to 5V at WOT.

That sounds right. The center is usually the signal because that's how most pots are. That's not always the case anymore though.


I am still running the stock Sebring map since I am unable to flash my ECU at this time (SCT doesn't have the NGC1 support finished yet, and I happen to have a very early build 04 that still has an NGC1 instead of the NGC3). I'm running a Greddy e-Manage as a piggy back in the mean time. Injectors are 750cc SRT-4 injectors from Deatschwerkz. Yes I have a return line and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. The fuel pump is still the stock Walbro 190lph. I tried to have a 255lph Walbro put in, but it didn't work out. The stock pump should be OK for a decent amount of boost. I plan on adding an external fuel pump in series with the stock in-tank pump later on when I'm ready to go for the extreme PSI.

Wow, going old skool on the tuning. Does anyone use RRG FPRs anymore? Just joking...I know you are trying to work around your electronics. We were all in the same boat back in the 90s. Series pumps don't always work the best if the first pump can't keep up with the flow. I'm not sure how the 190 would behave. JT had some nice flow vs pressure graphs of the 255.


I have a fuel pressure gauge sitting on my fuel rail, it reads 58psi at idle, which is stock fuel pressure on these. Might be nice if I had one inside the cabin, 'cause I obviously can't look at it while I'm driving.

Autometer sells an isolator, but installation is tricky because you have to fill line between with antifreeze. I like them because I like full sweep gauges and no one made a full sweep fuel pressure gauge back then.

Speedeuphoria
04-11-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm only running around at very light throttle and it's sitting around 14.5:1 to 15:1... I think I'd feel more comfortable if that was richer. Thats perfectly fine for cruising



Yes I have a return line and a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Injectors are 750cc SRT-4 injectors from Deatschwerkz.

I have a fuel pressure gauge sitting on my fuel rail, it reads 58psi at idle, which is stock fuel pressure on these.
so its a rising rate or a 1:1 regulator? Is it hooked up to boost only or boost/vac?

Yeah with those injectors and 58psi fuel pressure you should change your oil soon and turn the base way down thats crazy rich!! I run 37psi(w/ 788cc injectors) and many srt4 guys need about that for those injectors.

SebringLX
04-11-2008, 08:32 PM
Thats perfectly fine for cruising

By light throttle I meant light acceleration... 0 to 45.


Thats perfectly fine for cruising

so its a rising rate or a 1:1 regulator? Is it hooked up to boost only or boost/vac?

Yeah with those injectors and 58psi fuel pressure you should change your oil soon and turn the base way down thats crazy rich!! I run 37psi(w/ 788cc injectors) and many srt4 guys need about that for those injectors.
Rising rate... it's this BEGi unit: http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html

I wasn't running crazy rich... I was running lean. I read through the e-Manage instructions and saw that it can only handle a 150% injector size increase. Well I think my stock injectors were around 200cc, and I have the 750cc injectors in there now (way more than 150% increase), so that's what I set in the e-manage. Idles great with that setting, but runs too lean with any kind of acceleration. I dropped the injector sizing down to 350cc and it richened up. Idles at 13:1, stays in the 11:1 to 12:1 range for the most part when accelerating. I need to adjust something on my wideband, it's not reading the RPM signal correctly... RPM reads just fine on the e-Manage, but wideband shows the RPM spiking to 7K when I never get anywhere near 7K. I haven't let it really get past 5K at all yet.

Anyway, I'm not sure how to adjust the fuel pressure to get it down to 37? I didn't install the regulator, haven't touched it yet.. :o

Speedeuphoria
04-11-2008, 11:39 PM
I think you just need to do some more homework, I dont like hearing about people blowing up there new stuff. Please dont take this too harsh, I'm seriously trying to help no insults intended.

11-12 A/F is way rich for normal driving, thats what I'm trying to tell you, thats what you want for WOT holding a good amount of boost(at least 10psi). You should be able to lightly accelerate around 14 A/F w/o issue. You can run ~13 A/F while spooling up to around 10psi then it should be 12:1 or slightly richer(11.5 is SAFE for 93 pump gas).

And if you car will idle at 14.7 thats what you want, factory PCM's can do it because they have alot of tuning parameters for idle quality, since its important to them. With standalones many times 14 is as lean as you can get it due to limited idle adjustments available and larger injectors, ect..

cruising you can go as lean as the motor will let you w/o any probs, most engines will run up to 16-17 A/F before they lean miss(which doesnt hurt a thing while cruising, just need a tad more fuel for drivability). The reason the stock pcm cars cruise at 14.7 is for emissions and best performance from the Cat, ect..

So if its around 14:1 lightly accelerating its fine AS LONG AS when you give it more gas it richens up!


Heres a table for the walbro 190l/hr external pump(internal may flow slightly less from what I read?)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n314/speedeuphoria/190L-hr.jpg
Here is info for finding what size pump you need
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=303072

So since you have an auto trans you would need slightly more fuel then posted due to more than 15% drivetrain loss, so I figured 18% loss for the following calculations(may be more). So for 300whp you would need 120L/hr safely, 120L/hr=~32G/hr. now look at the fuel pump chart if your running only 12V(not rewired) then 65PSI is the max fuel pressure you can run and still have the volume needed for 300whp, your at 58 just sitting there, if you can adjust your begi to be 1:1(like a standard boost referenced regulator) then 58 bsi base + 7psi of boost would be 65psi fuel pressure. Meaning that at ~10-12psi your pump is craping out at less then 300whp. Now I know you plan to add an external pump also and then you will have no issues with fuel flow from the pump even using higher PSI, I'm just letting you know not to get too crazy till you get that going. The only other thing is getting everything to mesh together with the e-manage and stock pcm

Then on top of that your fuel injectors are capable of 600HP at that PSI and you'll be making less then 1/2 of that HP, thats why its a balance, having enough injector, and low enough fuel pressure to have the volume needed. Its going to be a little different because of your tuning devices. Heres an injector calculator
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx#WORKSHEET

Example:
So for my setup I have a Walbro 255 external pump, running on 14V, 788cc injectors, 1:1 regulator, 37psi idle, want to run 33psi max, so FP will be 70psi. The pump puts out 58 G/ph @70psi on 13.5V(~220L/hr). Thats enough fuel for ~550whp(this is slightly more then my turbo will support also). The injectors have enough just enough fuel for @70psi for that whp also, but I have meth injection to supplement.



Read some of the SRT4 emanage threads to get an idea also
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f87/fellow-e-manage-e-01-tuners-i-have-s-79220/

This is a good thread, its long and info is spaced out some.
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f87/e-manage-discussion-help-thread-64377/


After you take in all of that, your also missing the other 1/2 of the equation which is timing. If you dont have a way to pull timing in boost its not going to last long. The lower CR of the SRT4 pistons will help a little, but if your computer doesnt pull timing in boost those cast SRT4 pistons are not going to live long.

Aries_Turbo
04-12-2008, 12:47 AM
may i make a suggestion? can you repin the connectors to run the NGC3? that way you dont need the RRR or the emanage and the car will run alot better.

Brian

Speedeuphoria
04-12-2008, 01:07 AM
Again I'm not trying to bust your balls, I love your project I'm trying to help, I'm a little harsh only because I care. The people that make big HP numbers on na cals, piggybacks, and cast pistons are very few and far between.

So what I'm saying is do some more learning and while using the emanage setup be careful and keep to like 7psi max or so(depending on fuel octane). That should be enough to get it broke in and get the bugs worked out. If you keep it look into something to retard the timing in boost or lowering the CR or Meth injection.

Then you can hopefully get the SCT working and have some fun!!
Brian's a smart guy, maybe he's on to something with the NCG3 rewire??

I also want to point out that I'm not real familiar w/ the emanage but AFAIK you cant adjust timing with it stock and clamping the map lower raises the timing which you deff dont want if you have no boost retard.

SebringLX
04-12-2008, 03:02 AM
Speed, not harsh at all, and you're not busting my balls. I had the injector info already, I read up on all of this stuff about a year ago when I first got started, I've trying to go over it all again now (honestly the car sat so long I've forgetten most of this). The fuel pump chart is one part I was having trouble finding again, so thanks for that one.

190 lph is ~50 gph, so that should be good up to 80 psi (fuel pressure) right? It's been a long time since I did the fuel calculations, I know my injectors are plenty big enough for what I want, and I do remember I had determined I would need either A a larger in tank pump to replace the stock Walbo 190lph, or B a high flow external pump.

I had the Profec E-01 set to 8psi, I think, still trying to figure that out, so really staying out of boost for right now anyway. I can probably lower that a bit if needed.

I do not find a lot of the e-Manage info on SRT Forums to be very helpful (minus the main install sticky). I've been going over all that again the past couple days too. Really confused on some of the e-Manage stuff. I wish I could tune with the SCT since I know how to do that in my sleep. It is not worth it to try and rewire for NGC3. My vehicle is not supported by SCT either way. NGC1 support was supposed to be done this week, but again they'll never officially support my vehicle. Since I have done a few things for them (I'm an authorized tuner/dealer for them), I have to wait for them to help me out in their spare time and take what I can get no matter what I do.

Yes I am aware of timing, it has been in my mind. Unfortunately I don't really have any way of monitoring timing right now. I thought I could get away without using the MAP clamp on the e-Manage, but that part is very confusing. It looked to me like the "boost limiter cut setting" was the MAP clamp. I read in the e-Manage manual that you do not need to use it if your vehicle didn't have a factory controlled turbo to begin with. I 0'd that table out and the car stalled out immediately, wouldn't start back up. It runs great if I set it to 5V all the way across. If I read correctly on the SRT Forums, having it set to 5V should actually be ok. It sounded like the lower the voltage the more timing it's going to give (going off memory right now, will look it up again tomorrow, I may have this backwards). So at 5V it shouldn't be giving any extra timing. I do also have an MSD DIS-2. I think I can retard timing a little with that if needed.

Now as far as the AFR goes... I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to describe... and I think I am confusing myself a bit with some new info I found. That new info being this here: http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_tuning.html which I found from the wideband I got from them through the recommendation of a friend. I agree, 14.7:1 is a good spot for idle to be. I have tuned a lot of 96-02 Dodge Trucks with large cams, stroker kits, etc, and I always try to get their idle as close to 14.7 as I can. Right now, if I have the injector size change setting on the e-Manage set for 200 to 750, it will idle very nicely right around 14.7:1, but it is not giving it enough gas when I accelerate at any pace. It will tend to stay around that level or lean out to 16:1 then dip to the 13:1 range. If I change the injector size change to 200 to 350, the idle AFR drops to 13:1, and the acceleration will stay in that range at light throttle, and drop closer to 11:1 on into the 11:1 range the closer to WOT. I figure it is easier to remove some fuel at idle somewhere else in the e-Manage settings, rather than trying to add fuel all over the place, I just haven't gotten to that point yet.

Unfortunately I am stuck with 91 octane out here. 11.5 to 12.0 range is whats I thought would be safe at WOT. Idle and cruising I know 14.7:1 area is perfect for NA.. I just wasn't sure if it'd be the same for turbo or not, although I don't see why not. The NA V8's I'm used to tuning, I'd normally be shooting for between 12.5:1 to 13.5:1 range for WOT depending on compression and octane. I know that's too high for my turbo 4cyl. Slow acceleration, like say 25 to 50% throttle, you know stop and go 0 to 30, maybe up to 45 MPH around town is the area I am not clear on. I do not know what I should be targetting for that kind of driving, or how to get there with the e-Manage.

I need to call the guys down at SCT and see what they can do for me, 'cause I'd have this tune nailed down already if I was using that. If they can at least make it so I can open my PCM code again (I used to be able to view it, then they locked me out of it), that will help out a lot, 'cause I'll be able to see what parameters the PCM is expecting, even if I am stuck using the e-Manage to trick it.

Alright enough rambling for now, it's 1 AM here.

Speedeuphoria
04-12-2008, 06:16 AM
190 lph is ~50 gph, so that should be good up to 80 psi (fuel pressure) right?IF you look at the chart assuming 12V @80psi you get 24gph or 90lph

The other thing is your injectors are rated for 750cc@ 43.5psi, @80psi they are over 1000cc's.

Currently your running them at 58psi so that makes them 866cc at idle, which is why it makes no sense that driving around normally with injectors that big(3x larger then stock) and you would be lean.

Now if your tuning a lot of fuel out at idle then i could see it, but to me it doesnt sound correct because in the video its way rich and if the wideband says lean then check for exhaust leaks also.

Otherwise I would question your wideband, where is it located? and does it have a "free air calibration"?


As for the boost level, I would call Hahn Racecraft and ask about there WG, it should hold like 7psi or so, I would leave the greddy set on off(acording to the manual) and you will still make whatever the WG will make normally 5-7psi which is safe while you get it figured out and tuning it.


It looked to me like the "boost limiter cut setting" was the MAP clamp. I read in the e-Manage manual that you do not need to use it if your vehicle didn't have a factory controlled turbo to begin with. I 0'd that table out and the car stalled out immediately, wouldn't start back up. It runs great if I set it to 5V all the way across. To me it sounds like a overboost fuel cut, so 5v would be the max of your map sensor(what bar is it?), so if you set 0 then if would cut fuel and wont let you start it. So if you have a 3bar map then for safety you could set it for ~2.5V which is ~7.5psi and it would cut fuel after that(I dont know if I like that much though), it shouldnt have any effect on timing.


I do also have an MSD DIS-2. I think I can retard timing a little with that if needed. This would be your best idea for now, do you have the programmable one? or the one with dials on the box? I think you need a map sensor for it either way(may be able to splice into your existing map sensor?)



Now as far as the AFR goes... I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to describe... and I think I am confusing myself a bit with some new info I found. That new info being this here: http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_tuning.html which I found from the wideband I got from them through the recommendation of a friend. I agree, 14.7:1 is a good spot for idle to be. I have tuned a lot of 96-02 Dodge Trucks with large cams, stroker kits, etc, and I always try to get their idle as close to 14.7 as I can. Right now, if I have the injector size change setting on the e-Manage set for 200 to 750, it will idle very nicely right around 14.7:1, but it is not giving it enough gas when I accelerate at any pace. It will tend to stay around that level or lean out to 16:1 then dip to the 13:1 range. If I change the injector size change to 200 to 350, the idle AFR drops to 13:1, and the acceleration will stay in that range at light throttle, and drop closer to 11:1 on into the 11:1 range the closer to WOT. I figure it is easier to remove some fuel at idle somewhere else in the e-Manage settings, rather than trying to add fuel all over the place, I just haven't gotten to that point yet.


Idle and cruising I know 14.7:1 area is perfect for NA.. I just wasn't sure if it'd be the same for turbo or notYES, although I don't see why not. The NA V8's I'm used to tuning, I'd normally be shooting for between 12.5:1 to 13.5:1 range for WOT depending on compression and octane. I know that's too high for my turbo 4cyl. Slow acceleration, like say 25 to 50% throttle, you know stop and go 0 to 30, maybe up to 45 MPH around town is the area I am not clear onDo just like that link says 13-14 A/f

Aries_Turbo
04-12-2008, 01:04 PM
I wish I could tune with the SCT since I know how to do that in my sleep. It is not worth it to try and rewire for NGC3.

i dunno dude, these statements seem to contradict themselves.

are the connectors totally different between the two? wiring harness? separate trans computer with the NGC1? can you get a NGC3 engine bay wiring harness and plug that into the body harness?

if I lived closer to you, i would come over and do it for you :)

do you have wiring diagrams for your car and the version with the NGC3? i know lots of folks with alldata access. i have the alldatadiy.com access but you have to pay for each vehicle. lemme know if you wanna tag on mine and then its only 15$ rather than to start a new one at 21$.

Brian

WickedShelby88
04-12-2008, 01:21 PM
You guys definitely know way more about this then idea, but call me crazy, but on the video I thought I heard an exhaust leak at some point. Maybe it was something else, but depending on how close to the wideband if there was a bit of a leak it could make the wideband read much leaner than what your actually at. How do your plugs look? Reading your plugs would definitely give you a better idea. I'd also change your oil right away if you were running rich for any length of time. I've seen engines drop oil pressure significantly from something like that.

SebringLX
04-12-2008, 02:12 PM
I see where the confusion is here... you guys are going off the video. Ok let me explain the video here.

That was picking the car up from the exhaust shop without touching the e-Manage at all. The wideband wasn't even hooked up yet in that video. I say it was running rich in that video going off the sounds, sights, and smells. I have no idea what the actual AFR was on the drive in that video. That drive was only about 10 blocks to get it home. It was not driven again until I got the wideband hooked up and made some settings in the e-manage.

Another thing, In the video, the electronic cut-out on my down pipe was not plugged in, and not fully closed. Since it was open about 1/4 inch, I suppose you could consider that an exhaust leak. I wired that in and got it closed all the way at the same time I wired in the wideband. The Bosch LSU 4.2 wideband O2 sensor is on a bung in the down pipe, just in front of the stock rear O2 narrowband sensor. Yes it does have a free air calibration. Actually I need to do a free air calibration now that I think of it. The exhaust shop installed the sensor into the down pipe for me while they were modifying the down pipe to fit on my car... but they didn't hook up the wideband at all. I hooked it up after I got home.


Speed, yes a lot of fuel is being tuned out. Setting the "Injector Change" parameter on the e-Manage pulls fuel all over the place based on the difference between what you input as the original injector size, and what you input as the new injector size. One thing with the NGC computers is that they are adaptive, it would attmept to pull fuel on it's own to reach the AFR it thinks it should have at idle.

Brian, I think you didn't read the rest of the paragraph there. It's not worth it to rewire because I can just wait a couple weeks for NGC1 support to be added. Why go to the trouble of re-wiring when I can just wait a little? Besides, my vehicle isn't supported either way. I could re-wire for NGC3 and still not be able to tune. Like I said, I'm stuck hoping my connections with them will hook me up with some tuning capability in their spare time. They aren't going to take people away from working on the big money vehicles (like all the new Hemi vehicles) to make some tuning work for an odd-ball '04 Sebring Sedan.

As far as the WG goes, I'll have to find my receipt to see which one I have. I can't remember if I got the upgraded 15lb spring or not. I know the one the 20G turbo comes with is supposed to hold 5 to 7 psi. Thing is I don't know how to adjust the WG. I wanted the electronic boost controller so I could adjust it that way, but that turned out to be more confusing that I thought it would be, since it seems it's based on a percentage of something (percentage of how open the WG is?).



To me it sounds like a overboost fuel cut, so 5v would be the max of your map sensor(what bar is it?), so if you set 0 then if would cut fuel and wont let you start it. So if you have a 3bar map then for safety you could set it for ~2.5V which is ~7.5psi and it would cut fuel after that(I dont know if I like that much though), it shouldnt have any effect on timing.

I still have the stock MAP sensor in there, so it's probably 1 BAR being it was NA.



This would be your best idea for now, do you have the programmable one? or the one with dials on the box? I think you need a map sensor for it either way(may be able to splice into your existing map sensor?)

I have the original one with the dials on the top, the programmable one didn't come out until much after I had already purchased this one. I know something is spliced into the wires going to the MAP sensor, but I'm not sure if it's just the e-Manage or if the DIS-2 is hooked into it as well. I didn't install it.

SebringLX
04-12-2008, 05:39 PM
Ok so I've been out here working on this afternoon. I adjusted the RRFPR until the fuel was ~37psi at idle. Then I adjusted the injector change setting on the e-Manage until the AFR at idle was hovering between 14.4:1 to 14.9:1. It ended up being 200 / 525. I only idled it, didn't drive it at all since doing this. I also did the free air calibration on my wideband before doing this.

So 750cc injectors rated at 43.5psi running at 37psi = 692cc. 692cc is good for just over 400 HP at the crank. To get that I need the fuel pump to flow 42.5 gph, which I would get with about that same number in fuel PSI. Now I don't think 7 psi is nearly enough to get that much power (not worried about that right now, want to keep the boost low until she's broken in). Seems like I don't need the fuel pressure to increase with the boost at all to get a good amount of power from it. So what's the point of me having the fuel pressure rise with boost? Can I even set my RRFPR to act like a static FPR and not increase fuel pressure under boost?

I checked the oil, and it does smell like fuel. Should I just replace it with regular oil? Or would it be ok to go to full synthetic now?

Speedeuphoria
04-12-2008, 06:29 PM
Ok so I've been out here working on this afternoon. I adjusted the RRFPR until the fuel was ~37psi at idle. Then I adjusted the injector change setting on the e-Manage until the AFR at idle was hovering between 14.4:1 to 14.9:1. It ended up being 200 / 525. I only idled it, didn't drive it at all since doing this. I also did the free air calibration on my wideband before doing this.

So 750cc injectors rated at 43.5psi running at 37psi = 692cc. 692cc is good for just over 400 HP at the crank. To get that I need the fuel pump to flow 42.5 gph, which I would get with about that same number in fuel PSI. Now I don't think 7 psi is nearly enough to get that much power (not worried about that right now, want to keep the boost low until she's broken in). Seems like I don't need the fuel pressure to increase with the boost at all to get a good amount of power from it. So what's the point of me having the fuel pressure rise with boost?Well because the computer isnt giving you full duty cycle where you need it, with the SCT you could change that Can I even set my RRFPR to act like a static FPR and not increase fuel pressure under boost?I'm not sure I looked at it, you may be able to go down to 1:1 like adfpr's

I checked the oil, and it does smell like fuel. Should I just replace it with regular oil? Or would it be ok to go to full synthetic now?Reg oil for 1000miles is good, change it now, I changed mine after a 2 mile drive around the block to check things and get it running

You'll get it, I was just trying to tell to be careful and think things through and figure out all your devices, which I know from experience can be a little much at times.

SebringLX
04-12-2008, 06:36 PM
You'll get it, I was just trying to tell to be careful and think things through and figure out all your devices, which I know from experience can be a little much at times.

Thanks, well I will just use regular oil then... I've only put 30 miles on it since the rebuild.

I was fixing my cluster (one of the needles was stuck) so I had the battery disconnected. This would have reset my PCM as well. I noticed that the AFR is at 10.6:1 at idle after the reset, then it slowly adjusted itself out to around 14.7:1.

Speedeuphoria
04-12-2008, 06:47 PM
I noticed that the AFR is at 10.6:1 at idle after the reset, then it slowly adjusted itself out to around 14.7:1.

That sounds right, you should have lots of fuel at idle, if the computer can bring it to 14.7 thats good.

I'm not sure where the PCM gets out of closed loop, but thats what you need to do to see your fueling, many times its like 70% throttle or something.

Also I hear stuff on srtforums about short term and long term fuel adjustments and that when tuning a piggy back its recommended to stay within certain ranges. I'm not sure how your PCM compares but may be similar , you have a scanner or something to read what the stock PCM is doing?

Aries_Turbo
04-12-2008, 09:29 PM
oh ok, i didnt know they were adding NGC1 soon. i guess i misread what you wrote. so once they add that, then you can tune with the SCT or still no?

yeah just take it slow and tune as you go. realistically, you should be able to adjust the RRR to do all the fuel rough tuning and then use the E-manage to fine tune.

Brian

SebringLX
04-12-2008, 09:53 PM
That sounds right, you should have lots of fuel at idle, if the computer can bring it to 14.7 thats good.

I'm not sure where the PCM gets out of closed loop, but thats what you need to do to see your fueling, many times its like 70% throttle or something.

Also I hear stuff on srtforums about short term and long term fuel adjustments and that when tuning a piggy back its recommended to stay within certain ranges. I'm not sure how your PCM compares but may be similar , you have a scanner or something to read what the stock PCM is doing?

All I have is a generic ODBII reader right now, and last time I tried using it, it stopped working on me. I don't know that it's going to give me the info I need.

The '03 SRT-4 had the NGC1, same type of controller, different parameters of course. Hopefully on Monday I can get SCT to open up my code for me so I can at least look at the parameters.

I turned the boost controll to OFF... it did not like that at all. It was like hitting a rev limiter as soon as it went past 3000 RPM. AFR shot up to 19.5 and it would not rev any higher. So I set the boost control back to what I had it at before.



oh ok, i didnt know they were adding NGC1 soon. i guess i misread what you wrote. so once they add that, then you can tune with the SCT or still no?

yeah just take it slow and tune as you go. realistically, you should be able to adjust the RRR to do all the fuel rough tuning and then use the E-manage to fine tune.

Brian

I should be able to yes, but no guarantee, and not officially. As soon as they release a firmware update that can flash NGC1, I'll be able to give it a shot and hope it works. I still have to get them to let me have access to my PCM code again. I used to be able to open it up in the software, but then they locked the software down to only let dealers open codes they paid for. Since there's no support package to buy for this vehicle, it locked me out of it. Going to beg and plead for it to get unlocked for me.

Speedeuphoria
04-13-2008, 05:22 PM
I turned the boost controll to OFF(on the boost controller?)... it did not like that at all. It was like hitting a rev limiter as soon as it went past 3000 RPM. AFR shot up to 19.5 and it would not rev any higher. So I set the boost control back to what I had it at before.

That doesnt make any sense, the boost controller shouldnt have anything to do with fuel, its only hooked to the boost line, then wastegate, and rpm input? So how could it adjust fuel?

On mine it just shows duty, so if I set it to 0 I get the PSI of the WG spring, which is ~5psi. Does your read like a duty number(0-100, its %) or does it control by an actual boost pressure? When I was looking at the manual it seemed like it had a boost sensor so it could control boost by a selectable PSI

SebringLX
04-13-2008, 06:12 PM
That doesnt make any sense, the boost controller shouldnt have anything to do with fuel, its only hooked to the boost line, then wastegate, and rpm input? So how could it adjust fuel?

On mine it just shows duty, so if I set it to 0 I get the PSI of the WG spring, which is ~5psi. Does your read like a duty number(0-100, its %) or does it control by an actual boost pressure? When I was looking at the manual it seemed like it had a boost sensor so it could control boost by a selectable PSI

That's what I thought too... the Profec E-01 (boost controller) is hooked into the e-Manage though so I dunno. It has two different % adjustments... one being gain, then a start boost psi setting. Yes it has a boost sensor... I can use it's display as a boost gauge too (which I have been doing)

This would be so much easier if I had a dyno, unfortunately the nearest one is 3 hours away. :\

Speedeuphoria
04-13-2008, 06:30 PM
yeah I guess since its hooked to the emanage that could do something with fuel as I dont know much about that

SebringLX
04-13-2008, 09:56 PM
yeah I guess since its hooked to the emanage that could do something with fuel as I dont know much about that

I dunno, I didn't see what the boost hit when it did that... I just know it pegged at 19.5:1 and didn't want to further so I let off...

I have it set like this now

SET: 40%
GAIN: 43%
START: 8.0 psi

I noticed it hit about 7psi set like this.

Good thing is I finally figured out how to setup my wideband to read my tach signal properly. First it was thinking I was revving up to 11k, then it thought I was running around under 1000 RPM.. got the pulses set right, and it looks correct now. AFRs are all over the place though. Lots of lean spikes.

Here's a copy of my latest wideband log: http://www.aerospheric.com/2pp.log

You can open it up in Excel, it's comma seperated. Or you can download the WEGO log software to view the graph here: http://www.daytona-sensors.com/download/WEGO_Log/WEGO_Log.htm

I am going to be taking my web server down for a bit to reinstall the O/S on it tonight, so if you can't download the wideband log, try again tomorrow.

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Alright I think I am getting this e-Manage BS figured out. I ditched the injector change settings. The manual says if you're using the airflow adjustment map, don't use the injector change. After doing this, the idle richened up to about 11:1, I had to remove 45% of the fuel at idle to get it back to 14.7:1. Now I am able to have some control over fuel at any amount of throttle, so with a little more driving I'll have this dialed in.

I am hitting 7.2psi with the boost set the way I have it before. Going through my receipts it looks like I have the 8-10psi WG, and not the optional 15psi WG.

I am concerned about timing. I know using the airlow adjustment map, it may be affecting timing. I'm just not sure how. Anyone have any idea? If I am pulling fuel, is it retarding timing, or increasing timing? Right now I don't see any need to add any fuel in anywhere, it looks like I will only be pulling fuel for the most part.

Speedeuphoria
04-14-2008, 02:39 PM
Alright I think I am getting this e-Manage BS figured out. I ditched the injector change settings. The manual says if you're using the airflow adjustment map, don't use the injector change. After doing this, the idle richened up to about 11:1, I had to remove 45% of the fuel at idle to get it back to 14.7:1. Now I am able to have some control over fuel at any amount of throttle, so with a little more driving I'll have this dialed in. Hey that sounds more like it!:clap: What fuel pressure?

I am hitting 7.2psi with the boost set the way I have it before. Going through my receipts it looks like I have the 8-10psi WG, and not the optional 15psi WG. Thats about right if its holding that, b/c the lowest boost you'll get read in the intake main is slightly less then the WG spring psi

I am concerned about timing. I know using the airlow adjustment map, it may be affecting timing. I'm just not sure how. Anyone have any idea? If I am pulling fuel, is it retarding timing, or increasing timing? Clamping the map increases timing!!It depends on the PCM map but thats why you have to be very careful!! For example on a srt4 what happens is the pcm has 25deg of timing @10psi and 20deg of timing @15psi ok, So your running 15psi and have too much fuel so you clamp the map so that the pcm only thinks your running 10psi for the correct fuel, well by doing that you increased the timing 5deg. Right now I don't see any need to add any fuel in anywhere, it looks like I will only be pulling fuel for the most part.

Yeah what I was saying is that you need to try and get it to where you dont have to pull a lot of % fuel if its using the map(well mainly in boost b/c thats where the timing will hurt you), try lowering your base fuel pressure instead as this does not add timing and tuning the rising rate regulator to give you enough fuel in boost(but rember what we talked about with you fuel pump and higher fuel pressure). Again I'm not exactly up on the emanage, but if its pulling using the map signal then you want to pull the least fuel you can so the timing doesnt go up like crazy. This is why for your turbo a long time ago I suggested you get 650cc injectors so you would not have to pull a ton of fuel

You really need to find out what the stock pcm timing map looks like or use a scannrer or something, that way you have a better idea of what your limits will be on pump gas. But be carefull for now pulling fuel in boost on 91octane, if it holds 7psi I would not go higher till figure out what kind of timing the pcm has. Then when you figure out what kind of timing you have, try to get the dis-2 to pull some timing when going for higher boost, if you can keep it safe then 18-20psi may be around the max psi on 91 pump?

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Yeah what I was saying is that you need to try and get it to where you dont have to pull a lot of % fuel if its using the map, try lowering your base fuel pressure instead as this does not add timing. Again I'm not exactly up on the emanage, but if its pulling using the map signal then you want to pull the least fuel you can so the timing doesnt go up like crazy. Also use 93octane if your not, just for some peace of mind.

You really need to find out what the stock pcm timing map looks like or use a scannrer or something, that way you have a better idea of what your limits will be on pump gas. But be carefull for now pulling fuel in boost on 91octane, if it holds 7psi I would not go higher till figure out what kind of timing the pcm has.
Base fuel pressure is at ~37psi. Is it safe to lower it any more than that? I didn't think it would be a good idea to lower it too much... thought I read somewhere that lowering it too much would cause the injectors to drip and not properly atomize fuel. Not sure if that is true or not.

Unfortunately 91 octane is the highest available to me out here in Montana.

I should be able to see what the stock timing map looks like within the next couple of days. I just need to pull the part number off my PCM again, then beg SCT to let me have access to that code in their software again. IIRC, it was very similar to the SRT-4 map.

Actually now that I think about it... when you are clamping the MAP, you're not exactly adding timing in, you're just making it use a different row of the timing map (which happens to have more timing). The timing map is RPM (columns) by MAP (rows). MAP is shown in KPa. Pressure increase from top to bottom.

Here's a screen shot of an SRT-4 timing map to show what I'm talking about:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/srt4timing.jpg

54KPa is ~-8psi (vacuum). 225 KPa is ~17psi of boost. On the SRT-4, if you are running at 17psi (225 KPa row) and 4768 RPM but have the MAP clamped to ~10psi (179 KPa row) you can see that your timing will increase from 24 to 30 degrees.

I'm pretty sure the stock MAP sensor I have is 1 BAR (it throws a P0129 Barometric Pressure Out of Range code as soon as I hit boost). It would be helpeful if I had a graph that showed what the pressure is at what voltage. 0V = ?? KPa 5V = ?? KPa.

Speedeuphoria
04-14-2008, 03:36 PM
Base fuel pressure is at ~37psi. Is it safe to lower it any more than that? I didn't think it would be a good idea to lower it too much... thought I read somewhere that lowering it too much would cause the injectors to drip and not properly atomize fuel. Not sure if that is true or not. Is your regulator hooked to boost only or vac/boost?(I'm not up on rrr's so they may not do vac to lower FP?) so with the vac line hooked up its 37psi, when you take the vac line off the reg does the FP go up? People have ran down in the high 20's FP for idle/vac but its better to have a little more for idle quality and drive ability, but you gotta do what you gotta do

Actually now that I think about it... when you are clamping the MAP, you're not exactly adding timing in, you're just making it use a different row of the timing map (which happens to have more timing). Yep, your tricking the computer into thinking your running less boost, like 15psi is 2.5V on the map and your only sending 2.0v to the computer

I'm pretty sure the stock MAP sensor I have is 1 BAR (it throws a P0129 Barometric Pressure Out of Range code as soon as I hit boost). It would be helpeful if I had a graph that showed what the pressure is at what voltage. 0V = ?? KPa 5V = ?? KPa.)0v is normally like -28vac on all maps. The 5v is the max or the map, so for a 1bar would be ~0vac/boost, 2bar would be ~14.7psi and 3 bar 5v would be ~30psi

See but in your case if you actually have a 1bar sensor, then I'm not sure what exactly happens? Also when it throws that code it may do something funky like a sort of limp mode because it believes the map is faulty. So it may do some default timing and fuel things? Hopefully a scanner hooked up would tell you exactly what the timing and fuel does when the code is thrown.

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Is your regulator hooked to boost only or vac/boost?(I'm not up on rrr's so they may not do vac to lower FP?) so with the vac line hooked up its 37psi, when you take the vac line off the reg does the FP go up? People have ran down in the high 20's FP for idle/vac but its better to have a little more for idle quality and drive ability, but you gotta do what you gotta do

Vacuum and pressure. See here: http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR_Instruction.html
When I adjust the fuel pressure down to ~37psi, I did not remove the vacuum line.


See but in your case if you actually have a 1bar sensor, then I'm not sure what exactly happens? Also when it throws that code it may do something funky like a sort of limp mode because it believes the map is faulty. So it may do some default timing and fuel things? Hopefully a scanner hooked up would tell you exactly what the timing and fuel does when the code is thrown.

What scanner should I be looking for to get the information I need? All I have is this generic Digimoto garbage right now...

So using Frank's Turbo Calculator with the 20G map (probably closest to mine)... With a target AFR of 11.5:1, I'd need ~17psi of boost for 350 HP (I'm guessing his calculator is crank HP and not wheel HP? It doesn't specify). I'd need ~36 gph for this. I can't see the chart image from work here, so not sure where that's at on the chart. If I dropped my fuel pressure to ~27psi at idle, I'd have ~44psi of fuel pressure at 17psi of boost. Sounds like that might be doable with my current setup?

Assuming 18% drivetrain loss, I'd need a ~370 HP at the crank to break 300WHP. For that, I'd need 19 psi. Again that's assuming that Frank's calculator is crank HP. Doesn't seem right though... I know the SRT-4 guys are making over 400 WHP with ~26psi on the same turbo I have. Now I realize I will have a little bit more drivetrain loss than they do, but that makes these calculations seem a little off.

Anyway, I think I'm getting a little ahead of myself here. Just trying to figure out the optimum boost level to run with what I currently have to avoid having to pull too much fuel, but at the same time, keeping away from running out of fuel.

Speedeuphoria
04-14-2008, 05:53 PM
Vacuum and pressure. See here: http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR_Instruction.html
When I adjust the fuel pressure down to ~37psi, I did not remove the vacuum line. But was the car running/idling?



What scanner should I be looking for to get the information I need? All I have is this generic Digimoto garbage right now...have no idea

So using Frank's Turbo Calculator with the 20G map (probably closest to mine)... With a target AFR of 11.5:1, I'd need ~17psi of boost for 350 HP (I'm guessing his calculator is crank HP and not wheel HP?Yes, it doesnt account for drivetrain losses . I'd need ~36 gph for this. I can't see the chart image from work here, so not sure where that's at on the chart. If I dropped my fuel pressure to ~27psi at idle, I'd have ~44psi of fuel pressure at 17psi of boost. Well that is not correct if you have it running with vac line hooked up. Thats why I asked if it was boost only and to take the hose off and watch the pressure. Normally you set it with the vac line unhooked, then when in vac like idle it drops the FP more(2vac~1psi), some use a boost only source so it doesnt drop in vac and only raises in boost. So if you set it to 37 with the vac unhooked then hook up the vac at idle the FP will be ~27psi, then it will go back to 37 at 0vac/boost, then at 17psi it would be 54psi.
Assuming 18% drivetrain loss, I'd need a ~370 HP at the crank to break 300WHP. For that, I'd need 19 psi. Again that's assuming that Frank's calculator is crank HP. Doesn't seem right though... I know the SRT-4 guys are making over 400 WHP with ~26psi on the same turbo I have. Now I realize I will have a little bit more drivetrain loss than they do, but that makes these calculations seem a little off.

Anyway, I think I'm getting a little ahead of myself here. Just trying to figure out the optimum boost level to run with what I currently have to avoid having to pull too much fuel, but at the same time, keeping away from running out of fuel.

First figure out your FP. If the vac line to the reg coming from the turbo or the TB then it is boost only(vac is only present in the intake, before the TB, so it means that from -28 vac till 0vac the FP is held constant then it raises with boost). If the vac line to the reg is coming from the intake or a splice off of that then it is a vac/boost(meaning it will lower in vac and rise in boost). Also yours is an adjustable reg so you can change the rate so instead of raising 1psi FP w/ 1psi of boost it can do like 2psi FP to 1psi boost(this is compounding your prob with the small fuel pump that you have now).


I would read up on this(as I dont know exactly which regulator you have)
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR_Instruction.html

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 06:08 PM
First figure out your FP. If the vac line to the reg coming from the turbo or the TB then it is boost only(vac is only present in the intake, before the TB, so it means that from -28 vac till 0vac the FP is held constant then it raises with boost). If the vac line to the reg is coming from the intake or a splice off of that then it is a vac/boost(meaning it will lower in vac and rise in boost). Also yours is an adjustable reg so you can change the rate so instead of raising 1psi FP w/ 1psi of boost it can do like 2psi FP to 1psi boost(this is compounding your prob with the small fuel pump that you have now).


I would read up on this(as I dont know exactly which regulator you have)
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR_Instruction.html
It's boost and vac. The vac line is T'd off a line coming out of the underside of the intake manifold. So I should be removing this line when I adjust it? 'cause I have just been adjusting it with the car running at idle and everything still attached.

Is it possible to make it less? Like instead of 1:1 or 2:1 make it 0.5:1 so it only goes up half a psi of fuel pressure for every 1 psi of boost?

Speedeuphoria
04-14-2008, 06:32 PM
It's boost and vac. The vac line is T'd off a line coming out of the underside of the intake manifold. So I should be removing this line when I adjust it? 'cause I have just been adjusting it with the car running at idle and everything still attached.Yes because the vac is not exactly 2vac to 1psi FP, but boost is normally 1:1(again your reg is different), so you cant exactly know what your final FP is going to be just off of the vac idle reading. Then on yours since its a rrr reg you Need to find out exactly what the rate is if you want to calculate things correctly. So if you have 37 in vac then you will have 47 at 0vac then @17psi at least 64 if the reg is 1:1

Is it possible to make it less? Like instead of 1:1 or 2:1 make it 0.5:1 so it only goes up half a psi of fuel pressure for every 1 psi of boost?I dont know but I dont think so(I would think the lowest would be 1:1 like a regular regulator?), like I said I believe yours is adjustable so I would call them and read the instructions about it?


I'm just trying to help, I'm sure there are many that just keep cranking boost till they run out of fuel. Personally I like to get a firm idea of when I will have issues so I can tell what the issues is better.


So if take the hose off of the reg while the car is running, it should get rich and the FP should raise. But I'm not up on these rrr's so maybe it doesnt lower in vac? I could very well be dead wrong on this. That would make sense also because they are made for na static FP cars that add turbos and need the extra fuel in boost.

I would call them and ask about it, how adjustable it is and if the FP drops in vac.

if it does drop in vac you can just lower the pressure and hook it to a boost only source(which may work better).

Dude just PM me and I'll give you my # and we can talk, or I have free long distance so give me your number.

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 06:40 PM
I'm just trying to help, I'm sure there are many that just keep cranking boost till they run out of fuel. Personally I like to get a firm idea of when I will have issues so I can tell what the issues is better.


So if take the hose off of the reg while the car is running, it should get rich and the FP should raise. But I'm not up on these rrr's so maybe it doesnt lower in vac? I could very well be dead wrong on this. That would make sense also because they are made for na static FP cars that add turbos and need the extra fuel in boost.

I would call them and ask about it, how adjustable it is and if the FP drops in vac.

Well I found a problem here looking at it again. The vac line was hooked up to the boost side of the regulator, and the other side wasn't connected at all. Again, I didn't install this, so I'm finding mistakes that someone else made here. :\ I switched the vac line to the other port and the fuel pressure dropped. There is a T coming off the boost sensor that is capped off on one side. One goes to the WG, the other goes to the sensor, the other is capped off. Can I uncap this and attach a line from it to the regulator?

Again, thank you so much for your help, I am learning a lot here.

*QUICK EDIT*
I shold note that with the vac line switched to the other port, there is about a 20psi drop in fuel pressure with it connected vs with it disconnected.

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 08:53 PM
Thanks to Speedeuphoria for spending a little time on the phone with me... I think I have a pretty good start here.

I have the part throttle driving running really good. Stays in the 13.5:1 to 14.5:1 under part throttle acceleration, then holds between 14.6:1 to 15.2:1 while cruising. It falls on it's face if I try to go toward WOT too quickly though. Hit the gas a little too fast, and it will immediately peg 10.3:1 causing it to bog down really bad.

I have decided that I need to hook up the TPS signal to my wideband for logging, since the e-Manage airflow adjustment map that I'm stuck using to remove fuel with right now is based on throttle position (in percentage) and RPM. This will give me a better idea of what to adjust after looking at logs.

Right now I have it pulling 38% at idle, then 30% up through 35% throttle, from 40% throttle on up, I have it pulling 25%. I just plugged in those numbers to see how it would drive after lowering the base fuel pressure to 27psi, they will be adjusted after I get some good logs to read (after I have it loggint TPS along with RPM and AFR instead of just RPM and AFR).

I have it holding 7.2psi, so at least the boost seems under control for now until I'm ready to turn it up a little.

Speedeuphoria
04-14-2008, 09:07 PM
Hey was this the guide you read? If not its got a little info on how your setup may work

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=282379

Yeah hooking up the TPS in your log will help, You could also hook up the MAP later to see how it does in boost(theres instructions on the wideband site), that may be better to look at that when tuning the rrr reg

SebringLX
04-14-2008, 09:52 PM
Hey was this the guide you read? If not its got a little info on how your setup may work

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=282379

Yeah hooking up the TPS in your log will help, You could also hook up the MAP later to see how it does in boost(theres instructions on the wideband site), that may be better to look at that when tuning the rrr reg
Yup, read that one.

I only have 1 spare sensor wire on my wideband. Currently it shows RPM and AFR, with 1 more wire available to connect to something else. I was trying to decide if I should hook it up to TPS, MAP, or BOOST. I am choosing TPS for now since that's what the e-Manage fuel map is based on. I can log MAP with the e-Manage support tool if I have the e-manage plugged into my laptop. It will show me the MAP voltage going into the e-manage, as well as the MAP voltage the e-manage is returning to the PCM. Kind of sucks that it splits things into 2 different logs doing it this way, but that's all I have to work with right now.

SebringLX
04-15-2008, 12:32 PM
I think I have this figured out here. Going to try something different with the injectors I have now.

750cc rated at 43.5psi running @ 27psi = 591cc

The e-Manage can handle up to 150% increase in injector size. So if I 0 out the airflow adjustment map I've been playing with, and set the injector change to 200 / 500, my injectors will only be running at 91cc over what they are set to in the e-Manage. I'll probably be a little rich, but it will be a better starting point than trying to start with a blank map like I was.

If this doesn't work out well, I may try to pick up a set of Stage 2 SRT-4 injectors and just put my 750's on the shelf until I can afford to upgrade the fuel pump and better tuning is available.

Here's my thinking behind this.

Stage 2 SRT-4 injectors are 591cc @ 43.5psi
@ 27psi they will be 465cc, bringing them well within range of the e-Manage injector change correction abilities.
In theory, 19psi would give me 370 HP at the crank, which should be right around 300 at the wheels after drivetrain loss.
With 1:1 rising rate , 27 + 19 = 46psi
Stage 2 SRT-4 injectors @ 46psi = 608cc which is good for 370 HP
At 46psi, my fuel pump will be pumping right around the 38gph needed for 370 HP.

So in theory, if I swapped the 750's for Stage 2's, I could max out around 300whp with my current fuel setup (may fall a few short but oh well), AND be able to tune a little easier with the tuning that is currently available to me (e-Manage).

Aries_Turbo
04-15-2008, 05:31 PM
now the fuel pressure regulator you have.... does it only do 1:1 rise or can it be adjusted to provide more fuel pressure than base fuel pressure + boost?

i myself would tune it totally with the regulator if it can do rising rate and then fine tune (add a little here, remove a little there) with the e-manage to get it spot on.

hopefully the SCT can be used in the future to get rid of all the other stuff.

what kind of inspection/emissions test do you have in montana?

Brian

SebringLX
04-15-2008, 05:51 PM
now the fuel pressure regulator you have.... does it only do 1:1 rise or can it be adjusted to provide more fuel pressure than base fuel pressure + boost?

i myself would tune it totally with the regulator if it can do rising rate and then fine tune (add a little here, remove a little there) with the e-manage to get it spot on.

hopefully the SCT can be used in the future to get rid of all the other stuff.

what kind of inspection/emissions test do you have in montana?

Brian

It can be adjusted, but I have no need to adjust it to give more fuel, 1:1 is more than enough with the injectors I have. I have it adjusted as low as it should probably go to remove fuel with it, and I still have to remove too much fuel.

Good news though... maybe SCT to the rescue! I e-mailed my contacts down there, and they responded today asking if I could send my PCM in. So it looks like I'll be pulling my PCM out, shipping it to them, and hoping they can set it up for me to tune the PCM directly. :D I'll pull the PCM out when I get home tonight, and shipping it to them tomorrow. So things are looking really good right now for that. Being able to manipulate the fuel table directly beats trying to trick it with a piggy-back any day! Plus I'll be able to do a lot of other neat stuff. :thumb:

Oh and we have no inspection/emissions in Montana. :thumb:

Speedeuphoria
04-15-2008, 06:23 PM
Being able to manipulate the fuel table directly beats trying to trick it with a piggy-back any day! Plus I'll be able to do a lot of other neat stuff. :thumb:


Plus you can sell the emanage for $$$

SebringLX
05-01-2008, 03:27 PM
I got some mesh from Ace Hardware for $1.99, spray painted it metalic silver to keep it from rusting, and put it over the fog light holes that I cut off my bumper cover to make it fit over the intercooler. It's being held in place with some epoxy, hopefully I got enough on there so it won't come off. Should help keep debris from getting in there. I think it turned out pretty nice.

http://www.aerospheric.com/images/mesh.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/mesh2.jpg

My PCM should be on its way back from SCT now. I'm going to be able to tune it properly, and I'll have the Mexican Turbo Stratus calibration to use as a base to start from. :D

WickedShelby88
05-01-2008, 03:49 PM
Looks good. Sounds like you will be able to make it run MUCH better. Will the MEX turbo cal use a different map? Sounds like you'd be able to upgrade your map from 1 bar and really make it work right from there. Thats pretty sweet. Your going to be a pioneer of sorts doing what you are to this car.

SebringLX
05-01-2008, 06:35 PM
Looks good. Sounds like you will be able to make it run MUCH better. Will the MEX turbo cal use a different map? Sounds like you'd be able to upgrade your map from 1 bar and really make it work right from there. Thats pretty sweet. Your going to be a pioneer of sorts doing what you are to this car.
I'm still waiting for them to unlock the cals in the software for me. Right now I just get a message telling me that they were found in the databaes but I don't have access to them. So I don't really know. MAP should be scalable though... I am pretty sure some guys have scaled a stock SRT-4 cal to 3 BAR.

Funny you should mention the MAP... I have a 3 BAR MAP sensor for an SRT-4, but I haven't figured out how to make it work. It won't plug into my wiring harness. I bought another plug and wires to try and re-wire it... the plug looks like it will fit, but it doesn't, there's a little plastic groove in the way. On my stock plug, the plastic groove was on the opposite side. I'll try to get a pic to show what I'm talking about.

Speedeuphoria
05-01-2008, 08:09 PM
My PCM should be on its way back from SCT now. I'm going to be able to tune it properly, and I'll have the Mexican Turbo Stratus calibration to use as a base to start from. :D

Sounds great! Like the mesh thats what I'm going to do but using blask rubberized tool handle coating on the mesh. Yours is looking good:thumb:


So I don't really know. MAP should be scalable though... I am pretty sure some guys have scaled a stock SRT-4 cal to 3 BAR.

Funny you should mention the MAP... I have a 3 BAR MAP sensor for an SRT-4, but I haven't figured out how to make it work. It won't plug into my wiring harness. I bought another plug and wires to try and re-wire it... the plug looks like it will fit, but it doesn't, there's a little plastic groove in the way. On my stock plug, the plastic groove was on the opposite side. I'll try to get a pic to show what I'm talking about.

Yeah they can scale the map on the SRT4 SCT stuff. I think the older map sensors are like that and people have to do something on the 3bars with that grove.

Also on the SRT4's they can scale the O2 sensor to tune for the actual A/F on E85 or Methanol or whatever, personally since it reads Lambda no matter what I'd just leave it set for 14.7 and tune for 11.8 or so on any gas.

SebringLX
05-01-2008, 08:25 PM
Sounds great! Like the mesh thats what I'm going to do but using blask rubberized tool handle coating on the mesh. Yours is looking good

Someone suggested doing it black to me, but I thought black would make it stand out too much. I think black will look good on your car though 'cause you have the super dark window tint.



I think the older map sensors are like that and people have to do something on the 3bars with that grove.
That's weird, this is a brand new sensor I ordered from the local dealer. It took a while to find the part number for the plug, went back and ordered it, it looked like it would fit, until I actually tried to plug it in. I was thinking about putting the dremel to it.

Even if I get it to fit after dremeling it or whatever, I still have to figure out how to wire the plug. It came with wires, but they aren't attached.

SebringLX
05-05-2008, 09:36 AM
This weekend I picked up some Duplicolor silver paint that matches my color code of PS2 Bright Silver Metallic. I mostly bought it to try and do some touch up on my bumper cover where some paint got rubbed off. I've wanted to paint my mirrors to match the body (they came black) for some time, so I decided to test out the paint on them first.

Here's the result:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20001.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20002.jpg


I'm happy with the way it turned out. The car is really dirty and the paint hasn't fully cured yet, so the mirror is slightly more vibrant right now. However the paint looks like a perfect match to me. I had my wife go look at it after doing the passenger side only, and she thought I had painted the driver's side black, lol. She thought my mirrors were always silver (like they are on her grand prix).

Speedeuphoria
05-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Yeah I like the body color mirrors, looks good:thumb:, did the same to my Spirit when I 1st got it. It was a pain getting that paint off when I repainted the car though.

Did you put the duplicolor clear on top?

I think you can get away with a lot on Silver cars

SebringLX
05-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Yeah I like the body color mirrors, looks good:thumb:, did the same to my Spirit when I 1st got it. It was a pain getting that paint off when I repainted the car though.

Did you put the duplicolor clear on top?

I think you can get away with a lot on Silver cars

Yup I put 3 coats of the Duplicolor Clear Top Coat on it.

I started painting the interior yesterday, but I ran out of paint before even finishing the first coat on everything. :( Turns out that 1 can of paint I have that matches my body paint code was the ONLY can in town! I had some ordered but I'm not sure if it will get here before the big car show this weekend. My PCM is supposed to be back here on Wednesday, going to be cutting it close.

Here's after 1 coat, not even a proper coat since I was running out of paint while doing it...
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20004.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20005.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20006.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20007.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20008.jpg

These next couple of pics are with the MetalCast Ground Coat on getting ready to put the MetalCast Blue on it.
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20009.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20010.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20011.jpg

Here's with the MetalCast Blue on it... it got dark and the flash makes the color look a bit lighter than it actually is.
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20012.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20013.jpg

Here's a shot in the garage with the lights on:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20014.jpg

I am thinking of just using the MetalCast Ground Coat if I can't get anymore of the PS2 Bright Silver Metallic that matches the body. The MetalCast Ground Coat is almost the same color. I think it would work fine on the interior at least, but I don't know about on the driver's side mirror that didn't get finished. Definately isn't going to help me with the touch up on the bumper cover that I still need to do.

SebringLX
05-06-2008, 09:29 PM
More progress pics...

Bottom half of dash with glove box after 2 coats of MetalCast Ground Coat:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20017.jpg

After 1 coat of MetalCast Blue:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20018.jpg

After 2 coats of MetalCast Blue:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20019.jpg

After 3 coats of MetalCast Blue (overcast outside now):
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20020.jpg

It turns out that nobody can get any PS2 Bright Silver Metallic until Monday. I have a car show on Saturday. The MetalCast Ground Coat looks nearly identical, so I decided to finish off the other pieces with it, and I could not tell the difference when applying it over the other.
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20021.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20022.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20023.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20024.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20025.jpg

I heard thunder and it's looking like it wants to rain, so I didn't have time to put clear coat on. I'll have to wait 5 days then wet sand and put the clear coat on, but at least it will look OK for the car show and not half finished like it would have if I didn't put the MetalCast ground coat on it.

Aries_Turbo
05-07-2008, 12:35 PM
so the upper half is silver and the lower is blue?

im not a big fan of painting interior bits as the paint typically wears faster than just plain plastic. hopefully this is tough enough to withstand use.

brian

SebringLX
05-07-2008, 12:42 PM
so the upper half is silver and the lower is blue?

im not a big fan of painting interior bits as the paint typically wears faster than just plain plastic. hopefully this is tough enough to withstand use.

brian

Yes... trying to match the blue/silver/black theme I have going on in the engine bay.

I should have my PCM back by the time I get home from work today. Finish painting things up, get it all put back together and I'll be good to go for the Car Show on Saturday. Then I can get started on tuning and be ready for racing coming up the end of the month here.

SebringLX
05-08-2008, 03:04 PM
Grrr, I have to re-do both of the handles, and one of the door panels. I must have taped them off too soon, 'cause some of the paint came off with the tape.

Here's the door panel that came out OK. Not the best lighting, shadows from the tree in my neighbors yard...
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20026.jpg

Here's the dash all back together:
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20027.jpg
http://www.aerospheric.com/images/paint%20028.jpg

Yes I did the glove box in gloss black.

The e-Manage, Profec E-01, and WEGO II are all now in the glove box, so that cleans up the wire mess I had before once I get everything else back together.

SebringLX
05-14-2008, 11:11 AM
Some interesting news on getting this thing tuned... I called up AJ Berge, the guy who built my transmission, some of you may have heard of him... I got him hooked up with SCT a long time ago to get them working together since AJ has a very deep knowledge of Chrysler PCMs, and just Chryslers in general (especially our transmissions).

He told me he is going to try and change a bit on an NGC3 PT Cruiser PCM to make it think it belongs in the JR body, and swap out the NGC1 PCM in a Sebring Sedan with it. Pin-out is the same for the PCMs so it'll be plug and play.

This has me thinking now... I wonder if he is just changing the body code bit to keep it from throwing a code for inspection reasons. If that's the case, I could pick one up and be tuning right now, 'cause I could care less about codes... no inspections to worry about out here.

I don't know how long it's going to take SCT to get tuning working on my stock PCM (they are only working on it in their spare time as a favor to me), so this might be the way to go.

WickedShelby88
05-14-2008, 01:54 PM
Since you have data-bus communication with the PCM it might do a lot more than just throw codes..
Its worth a try though.

SebringLX
05-14-2008, 03:26 PM
Since you have data-bus communication with the PCM it might do a lot more than just throw codes..
Its worth a try though.

Yeah I need to call him up and ask a few more questions. If nothing else I end up waiting for him to work some magic on a PCM for me.

I just want this tuned properly so badly... It's pulling so hard already on a really really bad tune with the e-Manage and just 7psi. Actually I hit 9psi today, I think I set something up wrong when I re-routed the wiring for the electronic boost controller. Need to go back in a turn it down a little, even though it was running just fine hitting 9.

I'm loving the HSTC... I brought it up to 3000rpm while holding the brake and it didn't move. First time I've tested that out. I can't remember exactly what the stall is set to, I think it's somewhere around 3500rpm, so I probably could have brought it up another couple hundred rpms. Being able to launch at that RPM when I get this thing out to the track is going to be awesome. :eyebrows:

mario03SRT
05-14-2008, 08:20 PM
Yeah what I was saying is that you need to try and get it to where you dont have to pull a lot of % fuel if its using the map(well mainly in boost b/c thats where the timing will hurt you), try lowering your base fuel pressure instead as this does not add timing and tuning the rising rate regulator to give you enough fuel in boost(but rember what we talked about with you fuel pump and higher fuel pressure). Again I'm not exactly up on the emanage, but if its pulling using the map signal then you want to pull the least fuel you can so the timing doesnt go up like crazy. This is why for your turbo a long time ago I suggested you get 650cc injectors so you would not have to pull a ton of fuel

You really need to find out what the stock pcm timing map looks like or use a scannrer or something, that way you have a better idea of what your limits will be on pump gas. But be carefull for now pulling fuel in boost on 91octane, if it holds 7psi I would not go higher till figure out what kind of timing the pcm has. Then when you figure out what kind of timing you have, try to get the dis-2 to pull some timing when going for higher boost, if you can keep it safe then 18-20psi may be around the max psi on 91 pump?

X10.

You could always put on a water/meth kit and enjoy the timing!

mario03SRT
05-14-2008, 08:35 PM
Again I'm not trying to bust your balls, I love your project I'm trying to help, I'm a little harsh only because I care. The people that make big HP numbers on na cals, piggybacks, and cast pistons are very few and far between.

So what I'm saying is do some more learning and while using the emanage setup be careful and keep to like 7psi max or so(depending on fuel octane). That should be enough to get it broke in and get the bugs worked out. If you keep it look into something to retard the timing in boost or lowering the CR or Meth injection.

Then you can hopefully get the SCT working and have some fun!!
Brian's a smart guy, maybe he's on to something with the NCG3 rewire??

I also want to point out that I'm not real familiar w/ the emanage but AFAIK you cant adjust timing with it stock and clamping the map lower raises the timing which you deff dont want if you have no boost retard.

I believe that the emanage can tune fuel by adjusting inj pulses and therefore not dicking with the map input and timing tables. And I was also thinking that it has a timing retard feature too.

Marion

SebringLX
05-14-2008, 10:26 PM
I believe that the emanage can tune fuel by adjusting inj pulses and therefore not dicking with the map input and timing tables. And I was also thinking that it has a timing retard feature too.

Marion
Yes I believe it can too, but I believe that requires the injector harness that I do not have. I think there's an ignition harness for the timing part too, and I don't have that either. I don't think it's worth it right now as it's looking like I will be able to ditch the e-Manage and tune the PCM directly thanks to SCT pretty soon here.

Right now I am pulling 25% fuel at WOT and still pegged at 10.3:1 rising to 10.7:1 at redline. Runs great even that rich at WOT. Went to a back road that nobody drives down (lots of those out here in MT), launched at 3000rpms and before I knew it I was passing 100mph. Had about 2psi at launch, then peaked and held 9.8psi to the end. More than I was expecting as I thought I had it set a little lower than that, but no problem.

Idle and part throttle driving are near perfect. I've found it doesn't really matter how much fuel I remove at part throttle, my PCM will automatically adjust and lean it out to where it needs to be on it's own after only a few seconds.

I'm looking into retarding timing with my MSD DIS-2. If I can do that, I'll feel safer removing more fuel with the e-Manage while I'm waiting on my SCT tuning.

*EDIT*
Ok reading through the DIS-2 manual here: http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/frm25956_for_62112_62152/frm25956.pdf
It looks like I can retard the timing up to 30 degrees?
Using the SRT-4 WOT spark table as a reference (still can't access mine yet), it looks like removing 30% fuel would result in 10 degrees more timing, and removing 40% would results in 13 degrees more timing.
I figure retarding the timing at least 2 degrees more than what the advance would be by removing xx% fuel will keep me safe. That way I may be able to safely remove enough fuel to hit 11.5:1 rising to 11.7:1 @ WOT that should be a better spot to be running in.

Since I want the retard to be on all the time, it looks like I need to connect the pink wire to 12v (instead of a switch like they show for use with N2O). My DIS-2+ is sitting right next to the jumper terminals in the engine bay... so do I hook it up to the positive or negative side? It just says "to 12v" so I'm not sure where I should try to connect it.

mario03SRT
05-15-2008, 07:21 AM
Another thing that Speed mentioned is the LTFT/STFT's. Long and Short Term Fuel Trims. On the NGC Controller it can trim fuel up to 30%. But you do not want to bump up against either upper or lower limit because of mega injectors. I use a Actron 9145 Super Scanner to read the Trims real time while tuning. In particular the idle and low load part throttle fuel. Try to adjust as close to ZERO as possible. This will allow the car to compensate for barometric etc changes as if it were stock. If you are having a -/+25 trim and you go to Denver 1 mile High or New Orleans @ below sea level the car will run like pooh as it won't be able correct. Adjust fuel in the appropriate map cells and watch the scan gage. I do that right in my drive way or on the highway with no load.

FYI,
Marion

SebringLX
05-15-2008, 03:16 PM
Another thing that Speed mentioned is the LTFT/STFT's. Long and Short Term Fuel Trims. On the NGC Controller it can trim fuel up to 30%. But you do not want to bump up against either upper or lower limit because of mega injectors. I use a Actron 9145 Super Scanner to read the Trims real time while tuning. In particular the idle and low load part throttle fuel. Try to adjust as close to ZERO as possible. This will allow the car to compensate for barometric etc changes as if it were stock. If you are having a -/+25 trim and you go to Denver 1 mile High or New Orleans @ below sea level the car will run like pooh as it won't be able correct. Adjust fuel in the appropriate map cells and watch the scan gage. I do that right in my drive way or on the highway with no load.

FYI,
Marion

Yeah I think I need to reset the PCM and start over here now that I figured out how to retard the timing with my DIS2+. Right now my LTFT is -35 and the STFT bounces between -13 and -18. I retarded the timing by 12 degrees and removed 30% fuel @ WOT, saw a minor change in AFR through 1st and 2nd gear (actually hit 11), but it was still pegged at 10.3:1 all the way through 3rd.

Max fuel I can pull with my e-Manage is 50%, so as long as I retard the timing enough to match I should be safe.

SebringLX
05-16-2008, 12:34 AM
Yeah I think I need to reset the PCM and start over here now that I figured out how to retard the timing with my DIS2+. Right now my LTFT is -35 and the STFT bounces between -13 and -18. I retarded the timing by 12 degrees and removed 30% fuel @ WOT, saw a minor change in AFR through 1st and 2nd gear (actually hit 11), but it was still pegged at 10.3:1 all the way through 3rd.

Max fuel I can pull with my e-Manage is 50%, so as long as I retard the timing enough to match I should be safe.

Ok this idea is definately not working out... Idles like crap. AFR @ idle constantly fluctuates, it will go super lean like 17.8:1 then rich to 12:1 then hold around 14:7:1 for a few seconds then go back to bouncing around. Sounds very rough too.

I think the problem is the DIS2+ retards the timing ALL the time, which I did not think about at first. So if I retard the timing 20 degrees at idle... bad idle... but I need to retard that much at 3000+ rpm with how much fuel I'm trying to pull. There's just no practical way of doing that with how I currently have it setup.

I guess I should just stop messing with it and wait for my SCT tuning, lol.

mario03SRT
05-16-2008, 08:03 AM
Yeah I think I need to reset the PCM and start over here now that I figured out how to retard the timing with my DIS2+. Right now my LTFT is -35 and the STFT bounces between -13 and -18. I retarded the timing by 12 degrees and removed 30% fuel @ WOT, saw a minor change in AFR through 1st and 2nd gear (actually hit 11), but it was still pegged at 10.3:1 all the way through 3rd.

Max fuel I can pull with my e-Manage is 50%, so as long as I retard the timing enough to match I should be safe.

LX,

There are several points that that the trims need to be adjusted at. I do idle rpm, 1200, 1800, 2200, 2800, 3200. From that point I enter the last rpm value up to 6500 rpm or whatever the redline is. This is done w/o any load in the driveway. On both the SAFC II or the DTEC you can define your load tables. I'm certain that the Greddy piece does the same. On a SAFCII it's 20 lo and 80 high. On a DTEC it's 25, 50, 75, 100 by default but all can be redefined. After the setting of fuel for no/low load go out on the highway on a flat piece of road and "feather" the gas so the car is basically under no load. Read the trims at the same rpm points and verify that there are as near to Zero as possible.

Also a LTFT of -35 is telling you that there is wayyyy to much fuel and the ecu cannot pull any more fuel to acheive a 14.7-1 afr.

Marion

SebringLX
05-16-2008, 09:48 AM
LX,

There are several points that that the trims need to be adjusted at. I do idle rpm, 1200, 1800, 2200, 2800, 3200. From that point I enter the last rpm value up to 6500 rpm or whatever the redline is. This is done w/o any load in the driveway. On both the SAFC II or the DTEC you can define your load tables. I'm certain that the Greddy piece does the same. On a SAFCII it's 20 lo and 80 high. On a DTEC it's 25, 50, 75, 100 by default but all can be redefined. After the setting of fuel for no/low load go out on the highway on a flat piece of road and "feather" the gas so the car is basically under no load. Read the trims at the same rpm points and verify that there are as near to Zero as possible.

Also a LTFT of -35 is telling you that there is wayyyy to much fuel and the ecu cannot pull any more fuel to acheive a 14.7-1 afr.

Marion

I've been doing that.... I don't think you're catching on to what's going on here... I have way too much injector for a piggy back system to handle. Stock injectors = maybe 200cc. New injectors = 750cc. Even with the fuel pressure dropped down to 30psi and the e-Manage pulling 50% of the fuel at idle falling to 44% at WOT with 20 degrees of retard, the LTFT's are still over -30.

It drove the best with the e-Manage pulling 38% at idle falling to 30% at WOT with 12 degrees of retard from the DIS2+, even though the LTFT was -35 and AFR at WOT was 10.3:1. Idle and part throttle driving was perfect. It kept it at 14.7:1 for idle and cruising no problem, driving around town was great after it got done learning. Prior to that I had it pulling 38% at idle, falling to 25% at WOT then down to 20% in the upper RPM range with 0 retard. Idle and part throttle driving were great for driving around town set like this too. Only reason I changed it, is I was trying to lean up the WOT (it bogged if I try to go WOT below 3000rpms)

Like I said in my last post, with it pulling 50% falling to 44% with 20 degrees of retard, it did not want to idle properly at all. I dropped the retard down to only 5 degrees, and it idles just fine. Part throttle driving sucks though, lean spikes all over the place and it's sluggish. The LTFT only dropped to around -30 which isn't much better than it was before.

That is why I am just going to switch back to the fuel map that I was running on the e-Manage before, and just stick to driving around town until I can SCT tune this. I just don't know how long it's going to be before they give me the software update so I can do that, and I didn't want to miss the races at the end of the month. That's the only reason I was messing around with this piggy-back BS at all. I hate piggy-backs, sure they can work, but they are not the way to properly tune anything.

Aries_Turbo
05-16-2008, 07:51 PM
does your dis2 have the boost dependant retard?

Brian

SebringLX
05-17-2008, 12:28 AM
does your dis2 have the boost dependant retard?

Brian

Nope, I have the original DIS2+. :o I think only the newer programmable one can do that. Retard is active whenever 12v is supplied to the pink wire. Two dials to set how much retard, one changes it by 1 degree, the other changes it by 10. So if you want 12, you set the first one to 1, and the second one to 2. Max I think is 30 according to the manual

I suppose I could either just pop the hood and up the retard at the track when I'm ready to run, or try and wire in a switch to the cab and just flip the switch when I want it to retard.

I really wonder what the AFRs will look like when I turn the boost up. I don't think I will have as much of a need to pull fuel with higher boost levels, and therefore I will not need to retard it as much either. I have an SSCA race next weekend (25th) and the first test and tune at the nearest 1/4 mile track is May 31st. I want to be running somewhere between 15 to 20psi for these races. I just need to put a few more miles on the car before I turn it up. I have a nice stretch of back road to test on, I plan to slowly increase the boost and see where it puts my AFR at WOT once I get it up to where I want it to be.

I think maybe I am just getting ahead of myself worrying about trying to get my WOT AFR to where it should be when I am only running around on 7psi trying to break the motor in. Like I said I want to be running over twice this much boost. I really think I can hit about 19psi before my fuel pump reaches it's limit.

Aries_Turbo
05-17-2008, 01:22 AM
hobbs pressure switch at a set boost point to pull the timing back. kind of a hack but it would work.

Brian

SebringLX
05-17-2008, 11:54 AM
hobbs pressure switch at a set boost point to pull the timing back. kind of a hack but it would work.

Brian

True, but I'm kinda just trying to get the most out of what I have while waiting for my SCT tuning. Trying to avoid going out and buying extra stuff that I'll only use for a short time.

Aries_Turbo
05-17-2008, 01:50 PM
hobbs switches are always nice to have for various things. :)

allied electronics had the best price ive found for them.

Speedeuphoria
05-18-2008, 01:25 AM
hey I've read someone that ran there fuel pressure at 10psi w/o drive ability issues on 550cc injectors, I hear that the RC injectors dont like below 40psi so you may want to experiment a little to see how low you can go w/o issues till you get a better tuning solution

SebringLX
05-18-2008, 12:59 PM
hey I've read someone that ran there fuel pressure at 10psi w/o drive ability issues on 550cc injectors, I hear that the RC injectors dont like below 40psi so you may want to experiment a little to see how low you can go w/o issues till you get a better tuning solution

Well I am running Deatschwerks injectors, they have been running fine right around 30psi... I suppose I could contact Deatschwerks and see what they say the minimum pressure their injectors can run at is. These 750's at 10psi would be 360's.

*EDIT* Found this over on SRTForums in Deatschwerks section...
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f287/750cc-fuel-pressure-397857/

No response from Deatschwerks, just someone saying they wouldn't go less than 40 for fear of drip. No way for me to really tell if/when I get drip, but like I said I've been running just fine at 30.

I suppose I could just start the car up and adjust the fuel pressure until it sounds like it doesn't want to run?

Aries_Turbo
05-18-2008, 01:47 PM
yeah just try it and see what happens. if it runs great and the afr's are good and you can tune it better then you are good to go.

lots of us used to run +40% MP injectors at ~20psi with no issue.

Brian

Aries_Turbo
05-18-2008, 02:10 PM
one thing to keep in mind.... when you go to the PT/SRT ecu (if you can) make sure you run the SRT knock sensor in the same location as the SRT. you might have to tap the hole in the block to match the threads if they dont already match. i know the older sensors are a different thread. you may already have the same sensor as you have a 04. check the part number though.

have you thought about trying one of these to make sure you dont have knock till you get the other ecu? simple though dorky looking but they work. http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1555006

Brian

SebringLX
05-18-2008, 04:45 PM
one thing to keep in mind.... when you go to the PT/SRT ecu (if you can) make sure you run the SRT knock sensor in the same location as the SRT. you might have to tap the hole in the block to match the threads if they dont already match. i know the older sensors are a different thread. you may already have the same sensor as you have a 04. check the part number though.

have you thought about trying one of these to make sure you dont have knock till you get the other ecu? simple though dorky looking but they work. http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1555006

Brian

Well I was trying to get my Digimoto crap that I got years ago to read the knock sensor, but it only reads generic ODB2 pids... It will tell me "Timing Advance in Cylinder #1" though.

I've been playing around with it in the driveway... interesting results...

If I lower the fuel pressure to 10psi, it runs OK, but it will sputter and lean out a little about ever 5 mins and you see the STFT add fuel to compensate, then it will run OK for another 5 mins etc. By run I mean idle, I didn't take it out for a drive, I just sat in the driving messing with the fuel, slowly increasing the RPMs to 3000 while in park and watching the fuel trims. LTFT like this is -22. STFT bounces between +5 and -2.

If I set the fuel trim 15psi, the occasional sputter seems to go away. LTFT is at -32 and STFT bounces between about 0 and -4.

Here's the real kicker though... I 0'd out the e-Manage so it's not pulling any fuel and the LTFT did not change. Only when I adjusted the fuel pressure on the RRFPR did the LTFT change at all. I set the e-Manage back to pulling 38% at idle, the wideband showed 16:1 for a few seconds, the STFT jumped up to +15 for a second, then the AFR settled back to the 14.7:1 area... LTFT would not change, even after letting it idle for about 10 mins. STFT bounced around between almost +10 to almost -10. Set the e-Manage back to 0, and STFT kept a much timer 0 to -4 range, but again, LTFT stayed the same.

Why would pulling fuel with the e-Manage not affect the LTFT? At this low fuel pressure, the only thing pulling fuel with the e-Manage seems to do is make the PCM want to ADD more fuel short term.

Speedeuphoria
05-18-2008, 06:57 PM
I'm not real sure, but if you have something that looks good, try and reset the pcm by unhooking the battery for awhile then come back and see how it looks