Over 22psi on pump 93?

[Sethyboy85]

So my R/T is pretty well built
8v 2.2l 88 Bottom end with Carb rods (T2ish)
Steve M. S2 G-head
F3 cam "high rpm lifters"
Ported exhaust manifold by Mike Holler
Ported intake by Mike again
T3/T4 turbo 50trim, .63ar
NPR (large) IC
+40's
3 bar cal by Rob Loyd


Anyway I would love to run more than 20psi without starring at my gauges tooo much and was thinking of running a Water/Meth system that kicked in at 15psi and would hopefully allow me to run maybe up to 24psi if all holds together...

Am I crazy or would this work to supress detonation, With the G-head my compression is lower but I don't wanna blow this baby up and would rather have something there, just in case that last tank wasn't "up to par"

What should I be looking at if I go foward with this as in nozzles and what system would you recomend over another?

btw if nothing makes sense I have a 101F fever right now so I will re-read tomorrow and correct anything that is off the wall.

Thanks
Seth

[cordes]

8valves laid down just shy of 400HP at 27PSI IIRC. That was with no alky and on pump gas.

Your biggest problem running high boost with your combo is going to be the injectors, as they can only supply so much fuel at higher RPM. switching to some 72pph injectors, or alky as you would suggest will be needed.

I hope to construct my own alky setup this summer for the omni, and I will use the sureflow pump, a pressure switch and probably a nitrus fan spray nozzle just before the TB. Pretty much everything else I can dial in with the cal.

[Tony Hanna]

It'll work if you set it up right. I ran the Daytona around for a summer @ 28 psi on pump gas with a stock cal/stock fuel system and straight methanol injection. Had absolutely no problems out of it. Well, except for the busted trans.:)
I started out using the misting nozzles available from Mcmaster Carr, but eventually switched to a NOS fogger nozzle to make the system easier to tune.
Can't help you with choosing a kit as I cobbled mine together out of parts from ebay, the local speed shop, walmart, and auto parts stores. If you decide to build your own system, let me know and I'll offer any help I can.

[1985ShlbyChrger]

I have run up to 27 psi on 92/93 octane mix with no meth/water injection with a blueberry calibration set up for +20's. No knock, and my A/F gauge read pig rich. I was pretty happpy with it. This is on a 782 swirl head. I only run about 17 regularly, but I plan on running up to that 27 psi on the track. Hopefully my trans can hold it.

[Sethyboy85]

My head flows mucho air!

[cordes]

My head flows mucho air!

yeah, you would never be able to getaway with a high amount of boost on those injectors without supplemental fuel.

[Tony Hanna]

yeah, you would never be able to getaway with a high amount of boost on those injectors without supplemental fuel.

That's why I liked the way I had mine set up. The methanol was the supplemental fuel. When you're spraying enough of it to make up the difference in fueling between 14 and 28 psi (stock cal with a zener), you know you're getting enough to cool the charge temps and reduce detonation.:thumb:

[Sethyboy85]

perhaps 72lbs are in my future, I only drive the car to have fun anyway.

[Rattlesnake]

Try the Snowperformance, that's the one I have. I did testing for them for a while. If you want to run high boost with pump gas water/meth is the way to go. You are also buying insurance with a WI kit, if something goes wrong and the mixture goes lean you'll be protected.Been there done that.

Reinaldo Moloon

[Sethyboy85]

Lovin the feedback!

[Tony Hanna]

...if something goes wrong and the mixture goes lean you'll be protected.Been there done that.

Reinaldo Moloon

Care to elaborate? I've always been curious about what would happen if you had a major fuel system failure (lost the fuel pump for example) while spraying methanol.

[Rattlesnake]

There is no advantage in methanol by itself. Methanol is always cooler than ambient temperature and also a fuel, add to that the heat absorbing properties of water and you got the magic potion. I've run 40psi repetitive test with no knock,yes, on pump gas. I kept upping the boost and after a run the car was idling funny. I let it cool down and pulled the plugs and all of the ceramic insulators of the electrodes where gone! There was so much cylinder pressure that all insulators broke. That cost me a damage valve when a piece of the insulator fell off from the spark plug and went through a exhaust valve. And there was no knock registered either.

Reinaldo Moloon

[1985ShlbyChrger]

that's true Seth, your head does flow mucho air. My head only has backcut valves, so I'm sure you would defiitely need more fuel than I would. I have also wanted to experiment with the meth injection, but it's more expense and complexity than I want to deal with right now. I will possibly use it when I build up my 2.4 and put that in my wagon.

[Tony Hanna]

I've run 40psi repetitive test with no knock,yes, on pump gas.


I can believe it. I'd be willing to bet a person could get close to 30 psi with no intercooler and methanol alone. I'd be willing to bet the Sundance's engine on that except the little mitsu turbo won't get there.:o
I need to do something about that...

[8valves]

8valves laid down just shy of 400HP at 27PSI IIRC. That was with no alky and on pump gas.


24 psi, and 407 WHP.

Boost is just a reference to innefficiency though. 24 psi on my car isn't going to be equal to 24 psi on a Honda, or 24 psi on a Viper. Every engine takes XXX amount of CFM to produce XX amount of boost, so it's kind of hard to use it as a reference.

Alky would be the smart way probably.

[Rattlesnake]

24 psi, and 407 WHP.

Boost is just a reference to innefficiency though. 24 psi on my car isn't going to be equal to 24 psi on a Honda, or 24 psi on a Viper. Every engine takes XXX amount of CFM to produce XX amount of boost, so it's kind of hard to use it as a reference.

Alky would be the smart way probably.
That is why if you want power out of an 8valve it better be bulletproof because the boost has to be high in order to compensate for the innefficiency. Water/meth wont give you power, taking advantage of its heat management capabilities is the secret to unlock some power. You don't have to run a richer mixture to cool down the combustion charbers. Set your boost at a point that you feel comfortable and start increasing timming. This later one is very important, timming=power and if timming is not increased, very little power will be accomplished. Back in the 80's when the F1 cars where turbo, the engine displacement was 1.5L turbo and the power trims where 850hp@10,000rpm on race trim and 1200hp@10,000rpm on qualifying. And the majority where 4 cylinders. Their secret? water/meth+more timming+more boost (60psi)

Reinaldo Moloon

[glhs875]

That is why if you want power out of an 8valve it better be bulletproof because the boost has to be high in order to compensate for the innefficiency. Water/meth wont give you power, taking advantage of its heat management capabilities is the secret to unlock some power. You don't have to run a richer mixture to cool down the combustion charbers. Set your boost at a point that you feel comfortable and start increasing timming. This later one is very important, timming=power and if timming is not increased, very little power will be accomplished. Back in the 80's when the F1 cars where turbo, the engine displacement was 1.5L turbo and the power trims where 850hp@10,000rpm on race trim and 1200hp@10,000rpm on qualifying. And the majority where 4 cylinders. Their secret? water/meth+more timming+more boost (60psi)

Reinaldo Moloon


That's the priniciple I've been using with alky. (That is) getting more agressive with the tune. And it does make a difference!!! I was running somewhere around 27deg total timing @ 30psi. At that boost pressure the head lifted and the head gasket let go. There was no signs of detonation. I'm going to a Cometic head gasket (stronger than MP) along with head studs to help with clamping force. I'm also upping the compression ratio from 7.9 to 1 to around 8.3 or so to take further advantage from the alky. The power I was making @ 28 to 30psi using 93 octane and alky was blowing my mind!!!. But after many blasts at that level, a weak spot (head gasket) was uncovered. Time to upgrade. The alky definitely controls detonation, but then can uncover other weak spots from the increased cylinder pressure. But that's normal in the quest for more HP!!! It looks like my basic combo will satisfy me a long time on power prodution since I starting using and taking advantage of alky. I still have alot of tuning left to do though.

[turbovanman²]

It can be done with the right amount of alky but the rods you list worry me, if they truly are carb rods, they won't take the abuse your going to give it.

I like my devilsown alky kit, :thumb:

Aaron makes good power but he had the advantage of having Paul tune his cal on the spot using a dyno, something 99.9% of us will never have.

[Tony Hanna]

It can be done with the right amount of alky but the rods you list worry me, if they truly are carb rods, they won't take the abuse your going to give it.


Why's that? :confused:
Carb rods are supposed to be the same as TII rods just without floating pins.
I think maybe you're thinking of the early TI (lightweight) rods.

[mo' parts]

yeah, the 81-85 tbi/carb rods are basically the same as t2 rods, just no floating pin.

[Sethyboy85]

I should be fine, just depends how much boost it takes to humiliate people....

I really should drop this motor in a omni and scare the poop out of everyone including myself!

[turbovanman²]

yeah, the 81-85 tbi/carb rods are basically the same as t2 rods, just no floating pin.


Phew, wasn't sure, lol! Well then, he's fine, :nod:

[puppet]

I pretty sure that the true T2 rods have a little more meat in the cap section vs the earlier carb/pre '86T1 rods. It's not a lot but it's there.

[Tony Hanna]

I've not compared them myself to be honest. I was just going on what Gary had listed on his site. "Basically the same rod except no bushing for a floating pin."

[8valves]

Aaron makes good power but he had the advantage of having Paul tune his cal on the spot using a dyno, something 99.9% of us will never have.


The car only had 3 pulls on it, the first baseline being the 407/395 pull. The next two power went down and on the third it blew out the HG in an amazing fashion. You can only go so high in cylinder pressure on a given octane gas in a certain engine before the octane just isn't enough to suppress detonation, regardless of AFR's.

Meth probably would've let it live, but so would less timing/power/boost too. I like the pump gas stuff but it's getting to a point that it's a hinderenace to power and dangerous to boot.

[Ground Rat]

Great discussion guys. :thumb: