225 whp Engine Build

[overlordsshadow]

Hey all,

Well its only been about 1.5 years with the turbo 2.2 but its been through some rough stuff. Its only got the stock mitsu, had a piston crack in it, bagged to all hell, and it is feeling the pain, not to mention I still cannot find out why oil is gettin in the antifreeze.

So here it is:

I want to get to at least 225 whp on the next build. I'll let you know what I know I am going to get, then I would much appreciate any info you guys could empart on me. If anyone has composite lists of parts for their last rebuild, and what hp they are running, that would be great to.

I am going to get/make:
-Bored 40 over forged pistons for whichever block you guys think is best
-Going to go with whichever head is suggested, 3 angle valve job, minor port and polish
-Just got the intercooler on so thats all good to go
-Modifying the intake to take a 52mm throttle body and make use of it, mild porting and polishing
-What turbo should i get? Hybrid for top end boost and fast spool?
-Have 255 walbro, which injectors will I need?
-Have A/F and boost gauges from autometer
-Stock cam is good from what you guys say
-Stock crank and oilpump?
-Want to get alch injection system
-What about raising compession a tab and is there a Hgasket that is better than others for high horse?

Forgot to mention that I wouldn't mind if my waterpump and alt from my 88 motor bolted onto the new block. Also, as per usual cheapest parts with best quality is what I'm looking for.

[Speedeuphoria]

missed a couple things

what kind of car?(guessing shadow)(heavy car G head, light car swirl head)
auto or manual?(guessing auto)
which block(you say new so assume common block)
why 40 over(have you checked it?, only go minimum needed)
what size exhaust?
what kind of intercooler?

I'm deff not a 8v guy but I do believe that I've read that the mopar 005 gasket is the one to get for all applications, contrary to popular belief

I would say a hybrid turbo is too big for 225whp
I'm assuming 1 peice intake also.

whatever you do spend some time porting the exhaust manifold

[turbovanman²]

If your starting from scratch-

89 and up turbo long block-these are called "common blocks" and are the strongest. Also get the waterpump and the pump adapter, pulleys, you can reuse your power steering and motor mounts.

Bore it out to the smallest size you can get away with-the machine shop will let you know.

Have the block decked, cleaned etc. I prefer ARP head studs as there reusable and offer better clamping force. Use the Mopar performance gasket-P4452005
I would also get the bottom end balanced, makes for a smoother engine.

Port the oil pump hole in the block, its a big wall for oil flow. Take off the oil pump and you'll see what I mean.

Get some forged Wiseco's and rings-you can run cast if you want but if your redoing it, forged adds some mistake protection.

Have the rods resized and new ARP rod bolts installed

Have the head cleaned up, new valve guides, maybe clean up the ports a bit, 3 or 5 angle valve grind, use the stock roller cam.

Just port match the intake for the 52mm t/b, I picked up 5 whp at 29 psi so your results may vary.

Get a TII turbo or S60 turbo, both bolt on with no mods, get the braided lines from our vendors. 2.5 inch SV and minimum 2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust.

Use the stock cal to get her running then either use a cut-out raiser and an MBC to control boost or get a custom cal.

THIS IS NOT NEGOTEABLE, you need an air/fuel guage, and if you can, an EGT guage. I like the Dawes unit.

With the above setup, you'll easily have 225 whp and more if you turn up the boost with enough fuel.

[Frank]

And to think people were bucking the formula for builds we have planned. That is an excellent plan these guys have stated and will capable for alot more.

[BadAssPerformance]

225 whp? Sounds like a good job for a stock long block with more fuel and boost :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

225 whp? Sounds like a good job for a stock long block with more fuel and boost :thumb:

Except he has a mitsu, :mecry:

[BadAssPerformance]

Good point. Garret turbo will help ;)

[Frank]

Plus the clean up and few minor mods while may be more then enough for the 225whp, it will be the nice clean power and condusive for good MPG.

[Tony Hanna]

225 whp? Sounds like a good job for a stock long block with more fuel and boost :thumb:

+1

Here's my formula for 225 whp. Junkyard turbo engine, lowest milage you can find. Toss in a new set of bearings for safety sake along with a new head gasket and timing belt.
Check compression and if all cylinders are within 10% leave the pistons and rings alone.
Add a TII Garrett turbo, 2.5" exhaust, intercooler, and ecu/fuel system mods necessary to support 225 hp. Crank up boost and enjoy.:thumb:

That's my method. Definately not as good as a total rebuild and all new parts, but it has worked for me in the past.

[overlordsshadow]

Okay, this all sounds great. Few more bits of info:
-Car has the A520
-Dodge shadow
-1 piece 88 intake

Questions:
-what is a ghead or swirl and how will I know?
-can I get a decent rebuilt TII turbo from the vendors for decent price? I've never seen one where I live in my 3 years of modding.
-what should be used for porting? I have a dremel with the snake adapter and a bigger rotary tool with snake adapter and how big are we talking?
-I've got TII or commonblock rods in the car right now(the strong rods w/e they are) and they are in a 2.2 88 motor. Will those fit on a common crank?
-will the tranny need any beefing up and should it get synthetic oil?
-have catless, 2.25 inch non mandrel on right now, couldn't get any bigger over the back axle, not much for mandrel bend shops here either
-intercooler is roughly 3 feet wide with end caps, 2.75 inch deep, 6-8 tall with 2.5 in/outs
-what about injectors and fuel pressure regulators?

Once I've got all the info I think I need I'll make another post, a comprehensive list of what you guys have said and what the engine will have in it. This way it can be checked over.

P.S. Anyone know why the oil is in the antifreeze?

[turbovanman²]

Okay, this all sounds great. Few more bits of info:
-Car has the A520
-Dodge shadow
-1 piece 88 intake

Questions:
-what is a ghead or swirl and how will I know?
-can I get a decent rebuilt TII turbo from the vendors for decent price? I've never seen one where I live in my 3 years of modding.
-what should be used for porting? I have a dremel with the snake adapter and a bigger rotary tool with snake adapter and how big are we talking?
-I've got TII or commonblock rods in the car right now(the strong rods w/e they are) and they are in a 2.2 88 motor. Will those fit on a common crank?
-will the tranny need any beefing up and should it get synthetic oil?
-have catless, 2.25 inch non mandrel on right now, couldn't get any bigger over the back axle, not much for mandrel bend shops here either
-intercooler is roughly 3 feet wide with end caps, 2.75 inch deep, 6-8 tall with 2.5 in/outs
-what about injectors and fuel pressure regulators?

Once I've got all the info I think I need I'll make another post, a comprehensive list of what you guys have said and what the engine will have in it. This way it can be checked over.

P.S. Anyone know why the oil is in the antifreeze?

Use the one piece intake unless you get a really good deal on a complete 2 piece.

Your TII engine should have the good rods but if you buy a 89 and up turbo motor, it will have the good rods also. Yes, the TII rods are the same as 89 and up turbo rods/

There is a casting number by the thermostat housing, if it ends in a 782, then its a swirl, use that head.

Yes, www.turbosunleashed.com or www.fwdperformance.com will have the turbo you need.


If you haven't done porting before, then read alot otherwise don't bother. Just use aluminium bits for grinding.

You can get 2.5 inch mandrel bent exhaust from the vendors that fits over the back axle.

You need a moly plate for your trans and I like synthetic engine oil or Synchromesh oil for the trans.

Use your stock injectors and if getting a cal, then an adjustable reg should be bought also.


Oil in the antifreeze is usually signs of a cracked head or block.

[cordes]

Won't the stock injectors be pushed pretty hard at 225WHP on a setup such as this?

[Tony Hanna]

Okay, this all sounds great. Few more bits of info:
-Car has the A520
-Dodge shadow
-1 piece 88 intake

Questions:
-what is a ghead or swirl and how will I know?
-can I get a decent rebuilt TII turbo from the vendors for decent price? I've never seen one where I live in my 3 years of modding.
-what should be used for porting? I have a dremel with the snake adapter and a bigger rotary tool with snake adapter and how big are we talking?
-I've got TII or commonblock rods in the car right now(the strong rods w/e they are) and they are in a 2.2 88 motor. Will those fit on a common crank?
-will the tranny need any beefing up and should it get synthetic oil?
-have catless, 2.25 inch non mandrel on right now, couldn't get any bigger over the back axle, not much for mandrel bend shops here either
-intercooler is roughly 3 feet wide with end caps, 2.75 inch deep, 6-8 tall with 2.5 in/outs
-what about injectors and fuel pressure regulators?

Once I've got all the info I think I need I'll make another post, a comprehensive list of what you guys have said and what the engine will have in it. This way it can be checked over.

P.S. Anyone know why the oil is in the antifreeze?

-The swirl head is what should be on the engine that came in the car.

-Yes you can. Check TU and FWDP's websites to get an idea of pricing on turbos. Also, it would be a good idea to find a used one to send as a core or you'll end up paying quite a bit more money. Try the parts wanted section on here for that.

-Unless you have some prior experience at porting, I'd leave that to someone who knows what they're doing. You could probably get away with doing some minor cleanup work yourself with the dremel. I won't go into a how-to now because it'll get really long. Start a thread when you get ready to do it and ask about anything you're not sure on.

-Yep. The rods are interchangable. I had rods out of a commonblock 2.5 in my Daytona which had the early ('88) block.

-It might be a good idea to install the chromemoly bearing support plate available from FWDP for about $130. Not sure if you really need it at 250 whp though. As for the synthetic, I think there are mixed feelings about it. Personally I think the recomended oil does just fine for the trans.

- prebent exhaust systems are available in either 2.5" or 3" or you can buy some manderal bends and straight pieces of pipe and have a go at building one yourself.

-Intercooler sounds like it'll be up to the task. Just depends on how well it flows though.

-Injectors and fuel pressure regulator are available from the vendors. You may also want to look into a custom calibration for the ecu so you can run a 3 bar map sensor and let the computer handle everything. There are other ways to do it but the custom cal is by far the easiest and most reliable.
HTH,

[ShelGame]

Except he has a mitsu, :mecry:

It can be done...

:)

[ShelGame]

Won't the stock injectors be pushed pretty hard at 225WHP on a setup such as this?

Yes, +20's are needed for 225...

[cordes]

Yes, +20's are needed for 225...

That is what I thought. Of course you almost never know with some of the crazy things people on here have gotten away with.

[BadAssPerformance]

Won't the stock injectors be pushed pretty hard at 225WHP on a setup such as this?

Well, could possibly do it with fuel enrichment, race gas, extra injector (yuck), etc...

+20's and 100 octane all day long baby! :thumb:

[Tony Hanna]

It can be done...

:)

Anybody ever determined the power celing for a mitsu?
I've always hear upgrade to TII or t3/t4 for performance, but I don't think I've heard anybody actually say at what point the little mitsu completely runs out of breath.:confused:

[ssheen]

As everyone mentioned 2.5 exhaust will support your goal. Personally, I like 3" SV and exhaust myself. Then you can get to your goal easier. The vendors have them.

[BadAssPerformance]

Stock 2.25" sv, Stock 2.25" DP and 3" pipe and muffler after that should get you there too ;)

[turbovanman²]

It can be done...

:)


But why? ;)

[shadow88]

So we all agree it can be done in a few different ways. It seems to come down to how much you want to spend. Look in the FAQ section titled "t-m needs your engine set up" (or something like that) for further ideas. If you want to go the "add fuel and boost" method, it'll be way cheaper, If you want to spend the money on high dollar items, that's cool too.

What I think it'll really depend on is this : How long will 225 whp be good enough?

[ShelGame]

Anybody ever determined the power celing for a mitsu?
I've always hear upgrade to TII or t3/t4 for performance, but I don't think I've heard anybody actually say at what point the little mitsu completely runs out of breath.:confused:

Using the turbo map, and some generic numbers for BSFC, the Mitsu should be able to make ~250hp, max. The Mitsu is choked for airflow above that. It won't be anythign near efficient at 250hp, either. Although, it should be able to do it at ~20psi (IIRC, just going by memory).

[ShelGame]

But why? ;)


Because, the rules maker man says so...

[turbovanman²]

Because, the rules maker man says so...

Fine................

[GLHSKEN]

missed a couple things

what kind of car?(guessing shadow)(heavy car G head, light car swirl head)
auto or manual?(guessing auto)
which block(you say new so assume common block)
why 40 over(have you checked it?, only go minimum needed)
what size exhaust?
what kind of intercooler?

I'm deff not a 8v guy but I do believe that I've read that the mopar 005 gasket is the one to get for all applications, contrary to popular belief

I would say a hybrid turbo is too big for 225whp
I'm assuming 1 peice intake also.

whatever you do spend some time porting the exhaust manifold

Yep 005 gasket. Stock TII turbo (Garret) +20 injectors ported exhaust manifold and a 3" exhaust. That will meak an easy 225whp at 16 psi (I made 260 at 18)

[Tony Hanna]

Using the turbo map, and some generic numbers for BSFC, the Mitsu should be able to make ~250hp, max. The Mitsu is choked for airflow above that. It won't be anythign near efficient at 250hp, either. Although, it should be able to do it at ~20psi (IIRC, just going by memory).

And a mitsu is capable of 20+ psi depending on how restrictive the intercooler is. I saw 23 psi through a Talon cooler on my first Daytona, but could only manage around 18 with a stocker. For somebody that's just looking for a fun street car and cares more about how the car feels than how fast it actually is, you can't beat a 2.5/mitsu for the money.:)

[turbovanman²]

And a mitsu is capable of 20+ psi depending on how restrictive the intercooler is. I saw 23 psi through a Talon cooler on my first Daytona, but could only manage around 18 with a stocker. For somebody that's just looking for a fun street car and cares more about how the car feels than how fast it actually is, you can't beat a 2.5/mitsu for the money.:)

Well you know how that goes, you start at well, I only want 225 whp, :eyebrows:

[Tony Hanna]

Well you know how that goes, you start at well, I only want 225 whp, :eyebrows:

That's true. I don't think I've ever owned anything I've been satisfied with for very long as far as power is concerned. It's really nice at first, then you get used to it and start wanting more. When I get to the point where my daily driver is fast enough to scare the crap out of me every time I climb in it, I'll probably call that good.:)

[GLHSKEN]

I get to the point where my daily driver is fast enough to scare the crap out of me every time I climb in it, I'll probably call that good.:)

Been there done that wanted more ;)

[overlordsshadow]

I have the same feeling. That is why I want to build a motor with more hp. Want it as street car but also want to take it to the drag in street car class. I'm sure with the parts we've brainstormed I could safely squeeze more hp out of it. Like I said in the end I want at least 225 whp, most likely before alch/water inject and at a modest 15 or so boost. Then i'll use my new fuel cutout eliminator and fuel pump to go to 18-20? hehehehe ricers move over!

[ShelGame]

And a mitsu is capable of 20+ psi depending on how restrictive the intercooler is. I saw 23 psi through a Talon cooler on my first Daytona, but could only manage around 18 with a stocker. For somebody that's just looking for a fun street car and cares more about how the car feels than how fast it actually is, you can't beat a 2.5/mitsu for the money.:)

Yeah, but if you look at the turbo map, the Mitsu at 23psi doesn't give you any more air mass flow than 20psi. Just more heat.

[overlordsshadow]

So it looks to me like this exhuast problem is going to be the hardest thing. How can I get a large exhuast over the rear axle?

[turbovanman²]

So it looks to me like this exhuast problem is going to be the hardest thing. How can I get a large exhuast over the rear axle?

Buy the 2.5 or 3 inch system from our Vendors.


I always want more, hence 16 valve, muahahahaha, :nod: :partywoot:

[Tony Hanna]

Buy the 2.5 or 3 inch system from our Vendors.


I always want more, hence 16 valve, muahahahaha, :nod: :partywoot:

+1 on the exhaust. Or you can build your own. I ran a 3" side exit for awhile. That's really simple to build with just 1 90* bend and some straight tubing. Got sick of the noise though and ended up going with a 2.5" muffler shop bent system out the back. I'll probably order a 3" manderal bent system from one of our vendors when I get to the point that I need it.

[Tony Hanna]

Been there done that wanted more ;)

What do you do at that point?:confused: :)
I'd always hoped to one day own a car I was satisfied with. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

[turbovanman²]

What do you do at that point?:confused: :)
I'd always hoped to one day own a car I was satisfied with. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I think it all depends on what type of person you are. I thought I'd be happy at "x" level, hit that and wanted "y", now I want alot more, :evil:

[Mopar_Nutz]

So it looks to me like this exhuast problem is going to be the hardest thing. How can I get a large exhuast over the rear axle?

I can think of 4 ways to get more flow out of the exhaust.
1st, as mentioned. Get a system from a vendor. Bolt it up and go.
2nd, if you want it done locally, get a 90* bend and go side exit. Then exhaust shops won't get all anal about the rear axle (which if they had any skills, wouldn't be a problem)
Yet another way would be to get a cutout, and install it in the downpipe or before the cat or something. Electric, manual, or cable operated is up to you. But you have open pipes when you want, and closed when you don't want the noise or are just cruising.
4th way, ghetto chic! Open downpipe baby :D

Your budget or personal preferance can decide what one is best for you. I've done all but side exit and settled on option #3. I like my cars quiet on the streets, but a beast at the push of a button.

[overlordsshadow]

I've thought about that cutout and they sound like a good option since I just put a full exhaust system on last year. This way I could do like a 2.75 or 3 swing and dp and then with the cutout could scare ricers and use on track. I'm assuming you have electrical. How does that work, how hard to install, and whats the scoop on heat under the car and on the elec parts?

What do you guys think of cutting the top off the intake and cutting off the elbow. This would allow for easier porting and a 2.5 or larger 90 bend on the intake elbow and the bigger tb.

[turbovanman²]

What do you guys think of cutting the top off the intake and cutting off the elbow. This would allow for easier porting and a 2.5 or larger 90 bend on the intake elbow and the bigger tb.

Its been done, search thru the induction or fabrication section, a few guys in the last couple months have done it and put up pics, :p

[overlordsshadow]

Take out the balance shafts? And how/where do I get and exhaust cutout/bypass sys?

Gettin a pretty comprehensive parts list going, going to start aquiring some and might even go get the donar engine this weekend or next week. Any more suggestions let me know

[turbovanman²]

Balance shafts is a matter of opinion. If its a 2.5L then you should get the engine balanced otherwise it vibrates more. 2.2L, not really needed.

Exhaust cutout from Jeg's, Summit etc. Personally, not really needed for a DD and the weekend warrior, they tend to leak alittle bit and are expensive. A good 2.5 inch or 3 inch mandrel system will do the trick.

[overlordsshadow]

Well with the 2.5 or 3inch I'm really worried about constant banging on the axle. I've got lowering springs on the back and there truly isn't much room but if someone has a shadow with one of the kits sold from the vendors, please let me know how much room there is left. Also, i've got the 255 walbro and want to install it pre engine install. Whats the general procedure for that and what are potential complications.

[Subliminal]

Call me crazy, but I don't believe the 88 engines had balance shafts...so no need to worry about that.

However, you do have an 88 T1, which is known for having crappy rods.

But, there's more than one person on this board running an 88 T1 with extra boost.

Mine, for example, is hitting 18 PSI through a Garrett T2 with a 3 inch exhaust and +20s

[overlordsshadow]

The block I have right now is 88 your right. The thing is I put stronger rods in there. The point is I'm not touching even the fuel rail on the current engine. I am making a whole new engine.

[turbovanman²]

Well with the 2.5 or 3inch I'm really worried about constant banging on the axle. I've got lowering springs on the back and there truly isn't much room but if someone has a shadow with one of the kits sold from the vendors, please let me know how much room there is left. Also, i've got the 255 walbro and want to install it pre engine install. Whats the general procedure for that and what are potential complications.

Its tight but very doable, I have put a 2.5 inch kit on a Shadow and it was fine. TU has come out with a new system so I am led to believe it fits very nicely.

Drop the back of the tank aprox 2-3inches, remove the old fuel pump, swap in the Walbro, put it back together. Its that simple. Replace the hoses at the tank with HI PRESSURE line, you have to ask for it and use fuel injection clamps. If the store doesn't know what your talking about, go somewhere else, this is not something to skimp on. You should also get an adjustable fuel pressure reg just to fine tune your setup.

[overlordsshadow]

How much hose is needed? Just enough to get to the fuel filter?

[turbovanman²]

Well you need about 4-6 inches of 5/16 and the same in 1/4 then you should also do the engine side so I would buy a couple feet of each, so you have spare.

[overlordsshadow]

Going to go get the block today. I'll keep you informed. I'm so glad its not -30 out today. only about -8, bit of snow and clouds.

[GLHSKEN]

Overlord, Lots of advice thrown around in this thread. Bottom line. 225 whp is a fairly easily accomplished goal. Very few parts needed. fuel is the biggest issue. Just make sure you have enough and stock parts will get you there.

[overlordsshadow]

That I am glad to hear. But not since we've figured out that 225whp is easy to gain and that I am going to get beefier parts and have some of the fuel supply underway, we are moving that bar 25-50 whp.

[GLHSKEN]

Stock TII turbo and I/c hit a bottleneck about the 260-270whp area

[Clay]

my 87 GLHS w/ Stage II LM made 200 whp on the dyno down in Cinci, with no other mods. :) So add a bit more boost/fuel and you should be very close.

[overlordsshadow]

Clay I love your avatars!

[overlordsshadow]

Yahoo. Got the block today and it was just below zero and minimal snowing. Took about 3 hours to get it out. I am hoping its a commonblock. It has round tooth timing belt so I hope thats one of the signs. The car is an 89 but it was manufactured in late 88, August to be exact. I'ts a 2.5, has the Mitsu with very little endplay but thats not going into the new monster. I know my 88 2.2 motor had a passage at the front fo either water or oil that was blocked of with just a metal plate. I did not see the same thing on this engine and was under the assumption that this was fixed in the recast to common block model.

[GLHSKEN]

That was a fuel pump block off plate

[overlordsshadow]

I see, so is it safe to say that it is a common block 2.5 if it came out of an 89 manufactured in august 88?

[cordes]

I see, so is it safe to say that it is a common block 2.5 if it came out of an 89 manufactured in august 88?

I would say so.

[overlordsshadow]

Any tips on how to take off all the rusted, corroded bolts? Torch and or wd40 is what i've used before. Any better ideas?

[cordes]

Any tips on how to take off all the rusted, corroded bolts? Torch and or wd40 is what i've used before. Any better ideas?

I like PB blaster a little better than WD40. It seems a little more aggressive. The map gas torch is invaluable too.

[BadAssPerformance]

+1 to that ^^^ ! :thumb:

[GLHSKEN]

I see, so is it safe to say that it is a common block 2.5 if it came out of an 89 manufactured in august 88?

If it doesn't hav ethe block off plate and is round tooth, it is MORE than safe to say. It's a sure thing. Remember, 89's were on the lots in September '88

[Directconnection]

Okay, this all sounds great. Few more bits of info:
-Car has the A520
-Dodge shadow
-1 piece 88 intake

Questions:
-what is a ghead or swirl and how will I know?
-can I get a decent rebuilt TII turbo from the vendors for decent price? I've never seen one where I live in my 3 years of modding.
-what should be used for porting? I have a dremel with the snake adapter and a bigger rotary tool with snake adapter and how big are we talking?
-I've got TII or commonblock rods in the car right now(the strong rods w/e they are) and they are in a 2.2 88 motor. Will those fit on a common crank?
-will the tranny need any beefing up and should it get synthetic oil?
-have catless, 2.25 inch non mandrel on right now, couldn't get any bigger over the back axle, not much for mandrel bend shops here either
-intercooler is roughly 3 feet wide with end caps, 2.75 inch deep, 6-8 tall with 2.5 in/outs
-what about injectors and fuel pressure regulators?

Once I've got all the info I think I need I'll make another post, a comprehensive list of what you guys have said and what the engine will have in it. This way it can be checked over.

P.S. Anyone know why the oil is in the antifreeze?


I am not reading through all these posts, but will tell you that 225whp is VERY easy to do.

There are some things you wish to do that are uneccessary... and some that are not. For example... if you are unsure of what types of tools to use for porting your head, then I advise you it would be better left alone at this point in time. I have seen people do more harm than good... and seen one REAL horrible one once (the guy used stones!)

The intercoler you have picked sounds like one of those pretty front mount setups seen on ebay, yet flow real bad. Having a few long tubes = big flow losses. Many short tubes = minimal flow losses. For only 225whp, the STOCK T-II cooler will do fine. Since you can buy these in the Parts FS section for $50 or so, that will net you more money left over to spend in the areas where you need to.

Oil pump... use a stock one...mellings or mopar. I advise against a high pressure or high volume pump.

G-head or swirl? Stay with the swirl head since you allready have it.

Exhaust... you don't need a 3" system, but I would at least get a 2-1/2" mandrel setup from Turbosunleashed, or the catback 2-1/2" setup from FWD as well.

Turbo... you could make 225whp with the mitsu, but it would be alot easier on the turbo if it were at least a stock T-II garrett.

Rods... not sure if I understand you or not. In '88 the T-I cars came with the lightweight weaker rods. If you had these, you could still make the 225whp without alot of fear, but if you have the T-II rods (especially re-sized with ARP bolts) you will not have to worry at all. Are you going to build a common block engine? I ask because you mentioned using a common block crank. The common block crank needs to be used in a common block's block. They will not interchange w/out alot work. If you are using the older style 2.2 block, no need to upgrade to a CB for the power you are looking to achieve anyways.

Boost and fuel managment.... I see Ken replied so I will say take his advice as he's gone a long with on stock hardware. You could save alot of $ and simply run a T-II turbo with a T-II intercooler and get a T-II computer SMEC (I have one for sale btw...) with a 5th injector setup running around 18 psi of boost and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that you could make out of a stock unit to save even more $. Also, stay with the stock TB... 52mm not proven to do anything but waste throttle response and fuel on a mild performance engine.

Rundown of the cost effective 225whp setup:

* Your stock '88 T-I engine, swirl head, intake and exhaust manifolds. No portwork needed. (assuming the engine isn't tired and in need of a rebuild) I would have the head re-surfaced for flatness and a good valve job performed.
Stock oil pump and stock cam used.

* Stock TB, rail, injectors

* K+N cone mounted up front someplace and find a used 1st gen Talon BOV

* Stock T-II intercooler and radiator setup

* Stock T-II SMEC

* Turbo... sock garrett T-II with 2-1/2" swingvalve if possible. If not, the earlier 2-1/4 will be ok. (mitsu SW will not work with the garretts) use new oil/coolant turbo lines (TU sells a larger ID SS braided line kit for somewheres around $100)

* Use the extra injector and hobbs pressure switch routine to add fuel above the 14.7 psi cutout point, so you can run 18psi. I *think* your '88 2.2 T-I injectors are the 27pph ones, and not of the T-II variety, so you will need to upgrade those as well (they are cheap.. no worries) especially if you run a
T-II SMEC and also for wanting to run more boost. Need a cutout preventer... and an adjustable FPR.

* Stock coil and wires. Nothing fancy needed here either. Matter of fact, stock coil and wires are good to around the 340 whp mark from what i have seen.

* tranny... stay stock. Clutch may hold up as long as you are not powershifting and doing alot of burnouts. The moly support plate will help, but at 225 whp, you should be finme unless liek I said... you are beating the snot out of it.

As for most of these parts, you can find them for sale on here all the time, and pretty cheap. So don't let the parts tally adding up scare you. I have most of the stuff you need for sale if you wish to contact me. T-II injectors, T-II rad/cooler, 1st gen Talon BOV, T-II SMEC etc... The thing that will cost you $ is the turbo. If you have the $ to do so, going the extra mile for a couple hundred more gets you a true S60 turbo which gives you the potential to make 300whp, but with better head and manifold work (along with fuel)

[Directconnection]

If it doesn't hav ethe block off plate and is round tooth, it is MORE than safe to say. It's a sure thing. Remember, 89's were on the lots in September '88

Ah! If he has an '89 common block, then he has a 2.5 with the good rods from the factory allready in it...along with a beefier block and mains.

Also... he then has the T-II injectors as well.

Anyone have an idea of the boost needed on an essentially stock 2.5 intercooled with mitsu? We kno Gus got into the 13's on a mitsu and that equates to more than 225whp with a van to boot. Maybe if he can't afford a turbo, he can met his goal with just the mitsu turbo?

[ssheen]

Well written up Steve. :)

[Directconnection]

Thanks man! I am sure I left out a few things, though.;)

[Mopar_Nutz]

Exhaust cutout from Jeg's, Summit etc. Personally, not really needed for a DD and the weekend warrior, they tend to leak alittle bit and are expensive. A good 2.5 inch or 3 inch mandrel system will do the trick.
I sold my 2.5" mandral bent exhaust for $150, then spent $91 on the power plate and $26 on the Y-pipe from Summit. Pocketted $25 and had selectable nosie and power level. I don't see where the myth of them being expensive comes from. It's cheaper than buying a new exhaust.
Mine leaked very slightly. Not enough to hear but you could feel it a little if you put your hand near it. Not that I cared since half the time it was open anyways. Even with a slight leak, it was alot quieter than any well muffled 2.5" or 3" system.
I know I tend to push them a little bit, but I really do believe they're the best of both worlds. Cheaper or the same price as a full kit, but you can have them open or closed. Purr like a kitten or roar like a lion. Not to mention, if they're set up right, they'll outflow any full system of equal size....

[overlordsshadow]

Have the T3 turbo now, manual Mr. Gasket exhaust cutout, block is bored 20 over with rods and crank resized to .25mm over, got a ported exhaust manifold, ordering my performance parts including forged pistons, AFPR, and clutch from TURBOSUNLEASHED!

Should be a matter of weeks now that the parts will be here and engine assembly starts. Will make a subsection on my website devoted to this build from JY to Mustang Slaying.

[BadAssPerformance]

Sounds like a plan! :thumb:

[MiniMoparKing]

225 whp? Sounds like a good job for a stock long block with more fuel and boost :thumb:

A good chunk of that can be had by simply bolting a 3" exhaust w/ hi-flow cat & muffler onto it.

[mo' parts]

Have the T3 turbo now, manual Mr. Gasket exhaust cutout, block is bored 20 over with rods and crank resized to .25mm over, got a ported exhaust manifold, ordering my performance parts including forged pistons, AFPR, and clutch from TURBOSUNLEASHED!

Should be a matter of weeks now that the parts will be here and engine assembly starts. Will make a subsection on my website devoted to this build from JY to Mustang Slaying.

i really hope you didnt already have the block bored... you need the forged pistons on hand so the machinist can set the proper piston to bore clearance, forged pistons expand a bit more than cast.
if they set it up for stock clearances, then you may be o.k. they will just have to re-hone it out to the wiseco specs.

anyway, this thread has alot of good info in it. after being laid off and such, i had to go the cheap route on mine. looking to try and get 250 or so hp and hopefully see some low 13's or maybe a high 12's?? set-up is pretty much stock, other than a zener, 5th injector (yuck! as jt would say, lol) 1g bov.(rest in sig)
i think traction is my biggest obstacle.... the omni will lite the tires up in 3rd and sometimes 4th.:D
right now its tuned in at about 18psi, she spikes to 20 and then settles.
im afraid this tune will change once it finally gets above 40 deg. outside.:confused:

[overlordsshadow]

Uh oh, Would have thought .020 over was .020 over no matter what the piston. Just got the block, crank, rods, and brand new casted head yesterday. Does the piston have to be heated to check the clearance? I have a feeler gauge set so could i check the clearance myself?

[mcsvt]

No not heated. Forged just requires a little more clearance for expansion. The piston manufacturer should have a recommended amount for your application. Find out what is recommended then measure your bores.

[mo' parts]

like mentioned it does not have to be heated, that is what the extra clearance is for. due to the different types of material used in forged pistons, each one expands differently. you must go by the man. specs. since you mentioned TU, i would asume your either getting the venoila(mostly race use) or wiseco(my favorite). the venoila require larger clearances, like .007 i believe. the wiseco are much tighter, around .0035. i have used both and each have their advantages and both are excellent pistons.
assuming you are just .020 over, that would equate out to a 3.465 bore measurement. with the wiseco, you would be looking at 3.4685, and 3.472 bore measurement w/the venolias. sounds like you may just have to have them final hone it to your pistons once you recieve them, wether or not you use a tourqe plate is up to you. some engines i have, and some i have'nt. no probs, w/either.

[overlordsshadow]

Getting the Wisecos from TU

[turbovanman²]

I would let the machinist check the bore to piston clearance. If the machinist has already bored your block out before you got your pistons, find another one. He has to wait until they have pistons to do the job properly.

[mo' parts]

If the machinist has already bored your block out before you got your pistons, find another one.

is that really necessary?
of course there alot of unknown's, but if it was bored/fitted for stock size couldnt they just put a torque plate on it and final hone it?
i am in no way a machinist, just curious:D

[turbovanman²]

is that really necessary?
of course there alot of unknown's, but if it was bored/fitted for stock size couldnt they just put a torque plate on it and final hone it?
i am in no way a machinist, just curious:D

I have been around awhile and no machinist will start boring until they have the pistons in hand. What if theres some piston tolerances that are off, etc? What if the customer told him he had .030 pistons and he really had .020 pistons, now the block is junk or he now needs to find .030 pistons. Catch my drift, :eyebrows:

[mcsvt]

Sorry can't agree on this one Simon. If I am rebuilding a motor and only having the machine shop do the boring. Then I would think the machine shop knows what I am doing and would request the correct tolerances. Piston need not be in hand.

He didn't know the forged pistons required a larger tolerance, it was a mistake, but should be easy to deal with.

[turbovanman²]

Sorry can't agree on this one Simon. If I am rebuilding a motor and only having the machine shop do the boring. Then I would think the machine shop knows what I am doing and would request the correct tolerances. Piston need not be in hand.

He didn't know the forged pistons required a larger tolerance, it was a mistake, but should be easy to deal with.

Ok, to clarify, just talked to my machinist, he said common V8's IE small block chevy he would but a turbo motor, he said NO WAY, pistons in hand only.

[overlordsshadow]

Well if I get it measured and its the right clearance for my pistons should all be good? I've got a caliper but im not sure if it goes to 10000's of an inch. If I asked my machinist what he bored it to in exact measurement would it be safe to install crank?

[turbovanman²]

Well if I get it measured and its the right clearance for my pistons should all be good? I've got a caliper but im not sure if it goes to 10000's of an inch. If I asked my machinist what he bored it to in exact measurement would it be safe to install crank?


I wouldn't be doing anything to the block until you get the pistons spec'd. If you put it together then find its got to come apart, alot of wasted time.

[overlordsshadow]

mo' parts said that the measurement should be 3.4685 if i get the block checked that it is bored to that would i be good to go is what i'm saying

[turbovanman²]

I will say this one more time, WAIT until you get the pistons, then measure. If you want to put it together then be my guest but if the measurement is wrong, your wasting alot of time. Do it right the FIRST time.

[mo' parts]

its a waiting game now, as mentioned by me and simon, you have to wait till the pistons arrive. and then MAYBE the cylinders can be checked for measurements and honed to spec.
what exactly did you ask your machinist to do to your block? most will not even touch the block till they have the pistons, at least thats the case with good reputable shops. sounds like you need to have a nice long talk with your machinist and figure these thing out, or you'll be doing it again.

[overlordsshadow]

Told the machinist to bore it .020 over stock spec. Told him i was getting forged wiseco pistons from my supplier in arizona. He was leary about doing it without the pistons but decided to do it without coercion from myself.

[Tony Hanna]

The neighbor had something similar happen when I was younger. He had his block bored .030 and then bought the pistons. When he got it together and started it, you could hear piston slap in one cylinder. He pulled it back apart and sure enough, one piston was slightly under spec. That's how I ended up with an almost brand new set of sbc KB 10.5:1 pistons for $50.:) When it came time for me to use them, I sent them to the machine shop with my block and warned them about the undersize piston. Never had a problem.:thumb:

[overlordsshadow]

Well it seems that the 005 gasket I got does not look like a crossdrilled application gasket. Should I have gotten the 006?

[mo' parts]

Well it seems that the 005 gasket I got does not look like a crossdrilled application gasket. Should I have gotten the 006?

the 005 will work for both.

[mcsvt]

^^Agreed

[turbovanman²]

Well it seems that the 005 gasket I got does not look like a crossdrilled application gasket. Should I have gotten the 006?

The way the gasket is made, the CD's work. The 005 is a better gasket, it flows more coolant.

[overlordsshadow]

Great thanks guys. Anyone ever tried welding a turbo straight to tha manifold? How do I rotate jus the compressor housing? Do I just get that big ring out of there, rotate it and then put it back.

[turbovanman²]

Great thanks guys. Anyone ever tried welding a turbo straight to tha manifold? How do I rotate jus the compressor housing? Do I just get that big ring out of there, rotate it and then put it back.

I wouldn't weld it to the manifold, and why would you?

You loosen the bolts that hold the comp housing, the tap it with a deadblow hammer then rotate to position of choice and tighten back up.

[overlordsshadow]

Ya, after talking with my engineering friend we decided not to weld it but im not sure if I have enough room to make an adapter. The chrysler to T03(rectangular) turbo setup is a pain. Thinking of a short short piece of steel pipe with one end having the chrysler style flang and the other having the T03 type flange.

[overlordsshadow]

Simon, can you send me more pics of ure modified manifold? You used half inch place and bolted it to the top stock bolts. Did you just tap into that plate for the new bolts or did u go down into the manifold? Thanks for info.

[turbovanman²]

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11901&highlight=TIII+manifold

I driled thru and tapped 3 bolts into the housing and drilled right thru for the other one, if memory serves.

[overlordsshadow]

Well did the double bolt pattern manifold that tonyz has. Thats the first approach anyway, have a spare mani if it breaks, gonna give it a bit of a stress test. Should be mounting the turbo to it tonight and have the top end bolted up by saturday. Need to modify the compressor housing outlet to kind of angle to the drivers side like the stocker.

[Tony Hanna]

Well did the double bolt pattern manifold that tonyz has. Thats the first approach anyway, have a spare mani if it breaks, gonna give it a bit of a stress test. Should be mounting the turbo to it tonight and have the top end bolted up by saturday. Need to modify the compressor housing outlet to kind of angle to the drivers side like the stocker.

That should work fine if it gives you the clearance you need to work out a downpipe.
Something else you might want to consider is fabricating some sort of support bracket to go from the block to the turbo. I've read that the weight of the turbo can cause the manifold to crack if it's not supported from the bottom. I can't confirm this from experience, but there is a support bracket there from the factory which leads me to believe it's true.

[overlordsshadow]

Yep, for sure putting a support bracket on. Most likely going to come off the exhaust housing part and connect to the bolt holes for the equal length pass driveshaft. Not sure how strong im going to make it though. The exhuast pipe will also help to hold it up. Gettin new motor mounts in there since this thing is going to be bucking like a bronco.

[turbovanman²]

I did the plate thing for some reason way back when and until a customer of mine did the redrill only, I found out my plate idea was a good one, my stock DP fit almost perfectly whereas my friends had to be cut and welded at funny angles to clear. I just lengthed a stock turbo brace. :nod:

[Tony Hanna]

I just lengthed a stock turbo brace. :nod:

I'm going to get into some really goofy crap with that when I get ready to hang the Holset on the Sundance. There's no provision at all on the turbine housing for a support bracket. Guess I'll have to preheat the turbine housing and weld a tab on there with some Ni rod to bolt it to. Definately need one though. It's freakin' heavy.:nod:

[overlordsshadow]

Well i've got the turbo mounted to the manifold. Looking good. Will post pics later today hopefully, in garage right now and don't want to do the resizing and uploading. so to rotate just the compressor housing I undo the huge oring, tap it whichever way it needs to go and then reset the ring?

[overlordsshadow]

Here are the pics and I'm hoping someone might be able to supply an ingeneous idea for the exhaust. This is the my first time doing heavy modding to engine type parts.

http://www.overlordslegacy.com/josh/newturboback.jpg
http://www.overlordslegacy.com/josh/oldturboback.jpg
http://www.overlordslegacy.com/josh/newturboside.jpg
http://www.overlordslegacy.com/josh/oldturboside.jpg

[Tony Hanna]

Here are the pics and I'm hoping someone might be able to supply an ingeneous idea for the exhaust. This is the my first time doing heavy modding to engine type parts.


If I had it to do, I think I'd cut the section of downpipe off at the flange where it attaches to the turbo and replace it with a short radius weld el. If you put the weld el on at the same angle as the stock flange, you should be able to tie into the stock downpipe fairly easily with a stainless braided flex coupler. You might have to get an extra bend or 2 put in the downpipe to make everything line up but that'll be easy to figure out once it's in the car.:thumb:

[overlordsshadow]

So then I'd cut the top off the dp and just couple the two pieces together? Like coupling two charges pipes together with a silicon hose except here we use a ss coupler and exhaust u's?

[Tony Hanna]

So then I'd cut the top off the dp and just couple the two pieces together? Like coupling two charges pipes together with a silicon hose except here we use a ss coupler and exhaust u's?

I guess you could use exhaust pipe with a 90* bend if you could find one with a short enough radius.

I was thinking more along the lines of a short radius 90* schedule 40 weld el on the turbo. That would keep the outlet tucked in close to the turbine housing and should come pretty close to lining up with the stock downpipe.
If you use an exhaust pipe 90 with a long radius, you'll have to do an "S" bend off the end of it to get it to line up.

Aside from that, I think you've got the idea. Just cut the top off of the stock downpipe and run the flex coupler between it and the weld el on the turbo. You need some give between the turbo and exhaust pipe. The spring bolts and flange/donut provide this on the stock setup. A stainless braided coupler will do a fine job in a custom application.:thumb:

[overlordsshadow]

I want to push the boost between 19 and 22 on this build and I'm just wondering what the streetability story is with that high of a psi. Those of you that have your max boost in the 20 range and use them as a daily driver, are you mainly using half throttle? Just wondering about longevity if the car is bagged at 20psi vs 10.....

[Tony Hanna]

I was running the old Daytona at around 28 psi on the street with premium pump gas and methanol injection. The engine didn't seem to mind it at all, but it destroyed the stock auto trans pretty quickly. I'd say you could do 20 psi on premium pump gas alone with no problem if it's tuned right. Just make sure the rest of the driveline is up to the task.

[cordes]

I ran 22PSI all summer long one year in the shadow, but the cal had too much timing and it would pull timing regularly. I was much more inexperienced then, but everything held together just fine.

[overlordsshadow]

Trying to mock up the exhaust setup and the compressor discharge pipes are driving me crazy. Almost set up the later to run straight into the starter. Whats the easiest way to get those damn compressor housings to turn?

[overlordsshadow]

Almost there guys, just waiting on my damned pistons from Turbos Unleashed. Love them and hate them, mainly love though. Good stuff at good prices, sometimes it seems like stuff will never get here though.

[Tony Hanna]

Waitning on parts is a b1tch ain't it?:nod:

[t3rse]

often the story...you still can't clock it? loosen bolts, get a dead blow hammer (plastic with sand in it) and wack on it till it comes free, turn , and tighten bolts...as far as 20+ psi on the street, you'll be fine except for the fact that you'll have 0 traction under 30mph and sketchy traction to 50ish. get good tires!

[overlordsshadow]

Going to get 15 crabs with the best tires I can buy in town.

[overlordsshadow]

Well the turbo I have already has the lines for the oil but not the coolant. I have a Mazda 626 oil cooler attached to my stock turbo right now because it doesn't have coolant lines. Is this going to be okay for the new setup?

[turbovanman²]

I guess the oil cooler wouldn't hurt, but its usually the shut down the kills turbo's. Just make sure to let it idle for a few minutes so it cools down and run synthetic oil after its broken in.

[overlordsshadow]

Always do, and always use synthetic. Whats the breakdown on the breakin? Hoping to do the engine this weekend if the #$%#$%#$% pistons get here........

[turbovanman²]

Always do, and always use synthetic. Whats the breakdown on the breakin? Hoping to do the engine this weekend if the #$%#$%#$% pistons get here........

Use regular dino oil for 3000 miles, then you can switch to synthetic.

[overlordsshadow]

Got the compressor side of the turbo figured out and welded up. tight but very elegant. Have only a silicon hose + wormgear clamps width between teh cylinder had and the charge pipe lol. Had to weld and elbow to the turbo because if I had used a rubber hose it would have been within 1/8-1/4 inch from the exhaust mani. Hoping this engine works out great. The shadow in its current state is not even able to beat a 240sx. Really sad I know but with only 10psi and some cyilinders under 110 compression, its feeling the hurt.

[Tony Hanna]

Did you get your exhaust outlet/downpipe sorted out?

[overlordsshadow]

The exhaust will be sorted out while I'm putting it in I think. Looks like a stainless coupler job though. Once car is in shop and jacked up I can get a better idea of what needs to be done with the exhaust. More updates and pictures to come this weekend if all goes accordingly. The pistons left los angles at 4:40 am on sunday. Hoping they've landed safely in Canada and are coming my way.

[overlordsshadow]

Well now that I'm going to be two weeks behind I think I might put in the fuel pump and fix up the new rims this weekend. Again a parts hangup from TU puts me in a foul mood and behind schedule.

[overlordsshadow]

Hey all. Upgrading the power to this mother of a shadow. Thinking about the brakes now after the scary incident of being run off the road in the srt last week. If I do the back disc conversion do I need to upgrade the fronts? Want to just get crossdilled and slotted stocks for the front and better pads. What parts do I need for the back disc conversion on my 92 non es shadow?

[overlordsshadow]

Pistons finally here. Taking them to get the rings fitted and do a final hone in a couple hours. Should have the engine built up by the weekend if all goes well. Garage started on fire last night because a fan we had cooling the compressor shorted out. Damage limited to the compressor room ceiling. Alls well that ends well I guess.

[overlordsshadow]

Got the parts to the shop. Man those forged pistons are light and damn am I happy with the purchase. Now onto my next dilema. Oil return for the turbo. Should I clock it so that it points straight down?

[Tony Hanna]

I would. You want the return to be as straight of a shot to the pan as possible. Too shallow of an angle can cause problems.
HTH,
Tony

[overlordsshadow]

Got lucky and the mitsu oil return tube bolts right up to my new turbo. Can't wait for this engine to be in in the next few weeks. Turbo is quite a bit bigger than the mitsu and I'm going to be running mega boost. Thinking a new FMIC will be in order.

[overlordsshadow]

Got the rings on my wiseco pistons. Weird thing is the bigger heavier ring is the second compression ring, not the top. It did not fit at the top. Doesn't the bigger heavier ring go on top?

[overlordsshadow]

Motor is built up and almost ready for install. Using this sites knowledge center for my chromoly install tommorow morning. Hoping to be rtving in the morn and filling up the trans with oil later in the day. Think rtv needs 24 hours to cure though....? Hoping to mabye even start up the new engine tommorow. Got the old engine out today. Doing a shade tree mechanic job because we have a whole kitchens worth of cabinets in the garage, two harleys, toolboxes gallor and the comfy chairs. I'll let you guys know how it all goes. First drag track day out here is May 4.

[cordes]

You should really use anerobic sealer rather than rtv.

[overlordsshadow]

Well The tutorial said to use rtv and I didn't see this post till aftet the fact. Used rtv and lettin it cure. Not a hard mod to do but you really have to watch that 5th gear assembly.

The downpipe on the new turbo JUST fits. Got a 2.5" ID flex coupler for it and installing that and the cutout tommorow. Engine is in ust need to put trans in tommorow morning. Finishing the battery to trunk mod and then taking her for a break in. Going to get a devils own kit in the summer. Within the next month will put in the new fuel pump, and back connecting bar in the trunk.

[mcsvt]

I used RTV on my moly install. No problems and it's been months. The little "basket" (for lack of correct wordage) came apart on me when putting it back together. That was fun :)