Intercooler pipe sizing.

[turbovanman²]

I know this has been brought up before but figured, new site, more info.

I am running 2 1/4 on my van for IC piping and will be upgrading my IC soon, soooooooooooo, will I benefit from stepping up to 2 1/2 inch or what. I am running a 52mm TB and might try a 58mm for sh*ts and giggles later. The neck size on the TB's is roughly 2 1/4. I will be going 16valve later on in the year if plans go as planned. My current combo should be around 320-350ish based on others, when I get my issues sorted. So, thoughts?

[cordes]

If you are going to go 16V later, I would go with 2.5in. I did some calculations based on the formulas in corky bell's book, and those came up with 2 1/4in. being ideal (for the 8V). That being said, I know that there are a lot of really fast guys running 2.5in.

I run 2.5in. in my cars just because it is the most readily available around here.

[turbovanman²]

There both readily available but 2 1/4 is easy to route, :thumb:

[cordes]

There both readily available but 2 1/4 is easy to route, :thumb:

sounds like the way to go then.

[8valves]

2.5 inch all the way, no questions asked in my opinion. Screw the math formulas, the from pluto scientific theories... all that jazz. 2.5" without a doubt if you're upgrading. Realistically I'd like to go to 3" this season, but 2.5 might have to be suffice for now.

Look at Stephane- everyone called him nuts for wanting 4" IC piping, he dropped 2* intake temps from that. Small things end adding up overall.

Aaron Miller

[slasky]

I went from 1 3/4 pipes to 2.5 inch and I dropped my 1/4 mile ET by 2 full seconds. However, I also put in a spearco intercooler, 2.5 common block, ported exhaust mainfold, slicks, and new head at the same time - so that might have helped a little too.:)

[Mario]

I went from 1 3/4 pipes to 2.5 inch and I dropped my 1/4 mile ET by 2 full seconds. However, I also put in a spearco intercooler, 2.5 common block, ported exhaust mainfold, slicks, and new head at the same time - so that might have helped a little too.:)

Reading the first sentence in your post made my jaw drop, but then I saw the rest of what you did and realized why.

[altered7151]

I think the formulas are good baselines, except that they're based on ideal conditions. So once you take into account imperfections in the pipe, how many bends you have in it, the formulas will give you a size too small. Remember that your internal flow resistance will be based on the finish of the pipe, and you also lose alot of flow with every bend you put in, and the tighter bend the more loss. So if you're running something like mandrel bent aluminum with a nice finish an smooth bends, you'll have alot less resistance then running say, all seamed exhaust tubing with mig welded mandrel bent elbows. Then if you're using stuff like radiator hose for elbows you're losing a bunch of flow at all those connections. Personally I think I'm gonna step up to 2.5" on my setup.

[85glht]

There both readily available but 2 1/4 is easy to route, :thumb:

You just answered your own question.




Now hurry up and get some new cams made:D

[turbovanman²]

You just answered your own question.




Now hurry up and get some new cams made:D


Maybe but I can also make 2 1/2 inch work. Want to do it once only, well once again when I get the TIII head but thats a different story.

Need to get the van figured out before I can make any cams, :nod:

[85glht]

Maybe but I can also make 2 1/2 inch work. Want to do it once only, well once again when I get the TIII head but thats a different story.

Need to get the van figured out before I can make any cams, :nod:

IMHO if you are going to change to a tIII later, do what will be easier now. If it is just going to be a test bed, do the 2.25 now. I don't think that you will be able to use the pipes after the conversion.......no??

[turbovanman²]

IMHO if you are going to change to a tIII later, do what will be easier now. If it is just going to be a test bed, do the 2.25 now. I don't think that you will be able to use the pipes after the conversion.......no??


I will be able to use some of them, hmmmmmm, well, you never know, winter could turn into 07 and so on, so I might as well do it right.

[boost geek]

2 1/2" going on mine.

[Pat]

I run 2.5" on the Shadow, but when the motor was in the R/T, I ran 2.25" all the way under the rad support to the IC and back to the TB. At about the 370-380 whp level (trapping 118 mph in a full weight Spirit RT) at 24-25 psi, it showed less than 1 psi pressure drop from the beginning of the IC piping, through the IC and back to the intake manifold at 6500 rpm.

2.5" is better, but 2.25" will definitely do the job.

[cordes]

I will be able to use some of them, hmmmmmm, well, you never know, winter could turn into 07 and so on, so I might as well do it right.

IMHO, if you are thinking of upgrading anyway, I would run 2.5.

In regard to the bigger is better theory of IC piping, I am sure that there are cars that will benifit from big piping. Although I do think that comparing Stephane's car to most of ours is a bit of a reach.

I recall a FMIC kit that was offered by Precision IIRC, and they used 3" polished aluminum piping for it. However they did state on the site, that they used 3" piping for asthetic reasons, even though it sacrificed a few lbs of torque.

In the end, I am willing to bet that each setup will like a different size pipe depending on the mods. This will most certianly prove itself true when looking at the difference between a 8V and 16V setup IMO.

[BadAssPerformance]

A 52mm TB is close to 2-3/8" at the mouth... I use 2.5" I/C pipe cuz the I/C is 2.5" in and out and it seems to flow ok.

[John B]

I went from 1 3/4 pipes to 2.5 inch and I dropped my 1/4 mile ET by 2 full seconds. However, I also put in a spearco intercooler, 2.5 common block, ported exhaust mainfold, slicks, and new head at the same time - so that might have helped a little too.:) It was the new spark plugs...

[SMPerformance]

I know this has been brought up before but figured, new site, more info.



Simon I would go 2.5 from turbo to intercooler and 3" from IC to 58mm throttle body;)

remember it's all about efficiency :nod:


I would go with 2.5in. I did some calculations based on the formulas in corky bell's book,

with no disrespect to mister Bell but if I beleive is book My car should not even run ;)

[Frank]

I think a good, "general" rull of thumb is... go with what your thottle body is. SMP's thoughts are pretty interesting too about 2.5 and then 3".


Frank

[8valves]

I think a good, "general" rull of thumb is... go with what your thottle body is. SMP's thoughts are pretty interesting too about 2.5 and then 3".


Frank

I've pondered this before with the idea that it would keep velocity before it hits your main restricition, the core, then just mass volume after that point w/ the 3".

The thing that had me stumped then was why they use a 2" compressor outlet on the 30R and not a 2.5... I would've thought they would go a bit larger on that.

Aaron Miller

[cordes]

Simon I would go 2.5 from turbo to intercooler and 3" from IC to 58mm throttle body;)

remember it's all about efficiency :nod:



with no disrespect to mister Bell but if I beleive is book My car should not even run ;)


Could you elaborate on the reasoning behind the transition from 2.5 to 3" after the IC. I have not heard too many people suggest that. I am all ears.:nod:

[Frank]

Well the 2" compressor outlet is actually a function of the compressor housing journal and wheel efficency. It defines the compressor map to an extent and is tied to the wheel size. Once you get far enough away from the wheel, it doesnt matter as much.


Frank

[Aries_Turbo]

2.25 will work ok as larry J made 500whp with just 2.25" piping on his r/t but I bet he would have freed up a few ponies going to 2.5" or 3"

Brian

[turbovanman²]

I've pondered this before with the idea that it would keep velocity before it hits your main restricition, the core, then just mass volume after that point w/ the 3".

The thing that had me stumped then was why they use a 2" compressor outlet on the 30R and not a 2.5... I would've thought they would go a bit larger on that.

Aaron Miller

Hahahaha, we think alike Aaron. I was thinking last night that with the comp outlet on my compressor being roughly 2 inches, what does size matter after that point?





Simon I would go 2.5 from turbo to intercooler and 3" from IC to 58mm throttle body

remember it's all about efficiency

Thanks, If I can somehow route it, I will surely try, :thumb:

How would this effect the streetabitlity of it, and do this for 8V and 16V or just the 16V setup?

You guys are great, just when I think we've brought up all options, along comes Stephane, :D

Now, just have to find a 58mm throttlebody, time to start scrounging the pickaparts.

[Frank]

Well in order to use the 58mm, you have to redo the elbow of the intake with larger piping.


Frank

[glhs875]

One thing I learned from setting up air compressors is make sure and design all the plumbing to be able to more than run what you are using it for the best efficiency. In other words have the plumbing from the turbo all the way to the TB able to flow well more than the engine, so that the flow from the turbo can stay well ahead. And large plumbing doesn't hurt streetabilty at all, at least on my combo, I run 3" on mine.And I have WAY too much bottom end torque and throttle response for launching even in second gear (MVB). And that's with a 2.78 final drive with a Taft S3 cam.

[John B]

I use 2" ID from the compressor until it squeezes past the head then up to 2.25" the rest of the way. On advantage of increasing the size after the compressor is the cooling from gas expansion. If I had a 3" compressor outlet and a 3" TB throat I'd be using correspondingly bigger stuff. I don't know what (if anything) is lost from not using larger tubing, but Stephane's rig sure is an eye opener! Maybe it's just eye candy for maximum bling. After all, he has sponsors that want his car to be noticed!

[Putter]

Why run 3" inlet pipe, the exhaust pipe is only 3", there is a significant more volume leaving than going in...

[cordes]

Why run 3" inlet pipe, the exhaust pipe is only 3", there is a significant more volume leaving than going in...

Exhaust wise, I think it would have to do with trying to achieve a greater pressure difference between the manifold and exh. to help evacuate the exh. gas?

I would immagine that the large intake area would be to draw in the large ammount of air needed when the turbo is really trying to flow all it can.

Just my speculation of course.

[turbovanman²]

Good point Frank on the 58mm T/B.

But no one has answered this, if the outlet of the comp housing is only 2 inches, why does the size matter after that point?

[SMPerformance]

Good point Frank on the 58mm T/B.

But no one has answered this, if the outlet of the comp housing is only 2 inches, why does the size matter after that point?



Tell me Simon wath produces more Heat air traveling 100mph in a 2" pipe

or air traveling 80mph in a 3"pipe

and the reason I go with 3" piping is lower air temps and the bigger piping acts as an air reserve kinda like a bigger plenum

[SMPerformance]

I don't know what (if anything) is lost from not using larger tubing, but Stephane's rig sure is an eye opener! Maybe it's just eye candy for maximum bling. After all, he has sponsors that want his car to be noticed!

If it Was "BLING ONLY" I woudnt be making 1000hp at 33psi ;)

[turbovanman²]

Tell me Simon wath produces more Heat air traveling 100mph in a 2" pipe

or air traveling 80mph in a 3"pipe

and the reason I go with 3" piping is lower air temps and the bigger piping acts as an air reserve kinda like a bigger plenum


Thanks for the explanation. I will definatley go 2.5 inch now but doubt I have the room for 3 inch from the IC to the TB but we shall see, :nod:

[John B]

If it Was "BLING ONLY" I woudnt be making 1000hp at 33psi ;) If you tell me that the larger tubing made a difference I'll have no reason to disbelieve you. It does strike me, however, that many high visibility race machines have ic plumbing that seems larger than needed to produce any amount of power. Just an observation; I haven't accomplished what you have and don't intend to demean your efforts. To take an example of a different philosophy of another very talented man, Gus was "anti-bling" and delighted in out-running fashionably fitted racers with his homemade JB weld creations. I haven't accomplished what he did either. I had the greatest respect for his ability, and I am in awe of your achievements. If you tell me that 4" ic tubing is going to make an appreciable difference in my car's performance I'll sure give it a try!

[glhs875]

Why run 3" inlet pipe, the exhaust pipe is only 3", there is a significant more volume leaving than going in...

I have 4" exhaust myself.

[John B]

Thanks for the explanation. I will definatley go 2.5 inch now but doubt I have the room for 3 inch from the IC to the TB but we shall see, :nod: Sawzall! Won't help me though 'cause the barbs on my IC are only 2.25". I guess I'll just have to suffer tubing envy for a while.

[cordes]

Thanks for the explanation. I will definatley go 2.5 inch now but doubt I have the room for 3 inch from the IC to the TB but we shall see, :nod:


What kind of IC are you running, I would be able to do 3" from IC to TB in my omni for sure. :thumb:

[turbovanman²]

What kind of IC are you running, I would be able to do 3" from IC to TB in my omni for sure. :thumb:


Its a Bell unit, flows 725 and will sit where my a/c condensor did. It has 2 3/4 or 3 inch outlets, :nod: :thumb:

[Garret]

3 inch is the way to go, I switched from 2 1/4 to 2.5 and noticed way more off boost response and slightly better spool up, maybe a 100 rpm difference but it was significant and worth mentioning. I have 3inch setup for my 16v engine, so that's what I'm going to use. Hell I'd use 4 inch if I could but then my I/C piping would be the same size as my Plenum LOL

[johnl]

I've pondered this before with
The thing that had me stumped then was why they use a 2" compressor outlet on the 30R and not a 2.5... I would've thought they would go a bit larger on that.

Aaron Miller

Two things made me think: (1) When Aaron says ". . . the idea that it would keep velocity before it hits your main restriction, the core, then just mass volume after that point w/ the 3" and (2) SMP recommends that Simon use larger diameter after the IC. They got me thinking about the affect on temperature when a gas is compressed or expanded.

Maybe it is tiny but it seems to me that when the air hits the IC it may get compressed - that is, heated - and then when it exits the IC it may get de-compressed - that is, cooled. Presumably, (maybe I'm wrong) there is a pressure differential between before and after - that is, a refrigerator on top of a heat exchanger!

So, in addition to SMP's explanation of less friction = less heat, we may have a slight cooling effect from the pressure loss after the IC, as compared to what I assume is a greater pressure before the IC.

Enhance the effect by INCREASING the diameter of the system AFTER the IC. SMP:)

[turbovanman²]

Two things made me think: (1) When Aaron says ". . . the idea that it would keep velocity before it hits your main restriction, the core, then just mass volume after that point w/ the 3" and (2) SMP recommends that Simon use larger diameter after the IC. They got me thinking about the affect on temperature when a gas is compressed or expanded.

Maybe it is tiny but it seems to me that when the air hits the IC it may get compressed - that is, heated - and then when it exits the IC it may get de-compressed - that is, cooled. Presumably, (maybe I'm wrong) there is a pressure differential between before and after - that is, a refrigerator on top of a heat exchanger!

So, in addition to SMP's explanation of less friction = less heat, we may have a slight cooling effect from the pressure loss after the IC, as compared to what I assume is a greater pressure before the IC.

Enhance the effect by INCREASING the diameter of the system AFTER the IC. SMP:)

Sure, sounds good, works for me, :nod:

[t3rse]

damn you all, now I have to redo my ic plumbling...

[Pat]

If you have 2.25 already, why would you change to 2.5"? If I was getting 1 psi pressure drop at 24 psi, at 6500 rpm with a 16v set up at the 370ish whp level, with long IC tubing with lots of bends to go under the rad support, how much less pressure drop do you think you'd get if switched to 2.5"? I highly doubt it would amount to even .5 psi. The difference in heat generated by the additional .5 psi is miniscule at best.

If you're starting from scratch, go larger than 2.5". If you are working with what you already have, unless you're going for every last ounce of hp out of the motor like Stephane, I can't see too much of a difference. At the 300-400 whp level, switching from 2.25 to 2.5 is just an added expense.

[turbovanman²]

If you have 2.25 already, why would you change to 2.5"? If I was getting 1 psi pressure drop at 24 psi, at 6500 rpm with a 16v set up at the 370ish whp level, with long IC tubing with lots of bends to go under the rad support, how much less pressure drop do you think you'd get if switched to 2.5"? I highly doubt it would amount to even .5 psi. The difference in heat generated by the additional .5 psi is miniscule at best.

If you're starting from scratch, go larger than 2.5". If you are working with what you already have, unless you're going for every last ounce of hp out of the motor like Stephane, I can't see too much of a difference. At the 300-400 whp level, switching from 2.25 to 2.5 is just an added expense.


If your talking to me, I have to redo it some might as well go larger if theres a point, which there seems to be, :thumb:

[8valves]

If you have 2.25 already, why would you change to 2.5"? If I was getting 1 psi pressure drop at 24 psi, at 6500 rpm with a 16v set up at the 370ish whp level, with long IC tubing with lots of bends to go under the rad support, how much less pressure drop do you think you'd get if switched to 2.5"? I highly doubt it would amount to even .5 psi. The difference in heat generated by the additional .5 psi is miniscule at best.

If you're starting from scratch, go larger than 2.5". If you are working with what you already have, unless you're going for every last ounce of hp out of the motor like Stephane, I can't see too much of a difference. At the 300-400 whp level, switching from 2.25 to 2.5 is just an added expense.


I disagree to a certain extent, with all due respect of course. The pressure drop isn't the only thing we're looking at here. On the Integra we work on we switched from 2.25" tubing compressor to TB to 2.5". This car is a 350-400 whp at 12-15 psi type car. The difference was night and day. Spoolup sacrificed about 100 rpm by the AEM logs, but top end the car needed more fuel because the previous "good enough" tune was running lean now. The car responded amazingly on the top end from just the piping size change.

Now, it's not a very scientific measurement by any accoutns outside of the logs showing it needing more fuel now, but it was an eye opener.

I think if that statement is changed to at the 200-300 whp level that it would be acceptable, but the airflow demands of a 100 whp difference is extreme as I'm sure you know. I think this kind of goes hand in hand with the old school thinking that a 46mm TB or 52mm TB is good enough for 10's so it's good enough for everyone else's car thinking.

Aaron Miller

[Pat]

I disagree to a certain extent, with all due respect of course. The pressure drop isn't the only thing we're looking at here. On the Integra we work on we switched from 2.25" tubing compressor to TB to 2.5". This car is a 350-400 whp at 12-15 psi type car. The difference was night and day. Spoolup sacrificed about 100 rpm by the AEM logs, but top end the car needed more fuel because the previous "good enough" tune was running lean now. The car responded amazingly on the top end from just the piping size change.

Now, it's not a very scientific measurement by any accoutns outside of the logs showing it needing more fuel now, but it was an eye opener.

I think if that statement is changed to at the 200-300 whp level that it would be acceptable, but the airflow demands of a 100 whp difference is extreme as I'm sure you know. I think this kind of goes hand in hand with the old school thinking that a 46mm TB or 52mm TB is good enough for 10's so it's good enough for everyone else's car thinking.

Aaron Miller

I don't disagree that it could help, I just don't think it's necessarily worth the expense/effort if you already have a 2.25" set up.

Here's how I see it...pressure drop will show what restriction there is in the run from the turbo to the intake manifold. A low pressure drop to me shows that there is low restriction in that path at the level of flow demand of the motor. If the Integra you were working on needed more fuel up top after switching to larger diameter piping, if it wasn't due to flow demands (same ballpark hp, so the flow level would be roughly in the same ballpark, so I don't think flow was the issue), maybe the intake plenum volume of the Integra manifold was not enough for the volume of air being consumed at that rpm/hp level. I think Stephane mentioned earlier the larger piping can help supplement manifold volume, which makes a lot sense.

My point is that for most moderatly modified TD's out there, I don't think that you'll see any real performance gains by changing from 2.25 to 2.5". That being said, I still think if you're starting from scratch, go straight to 2.5" though!

[John B]

So, rule of thumb, at what psi or hp level should we move up to 2.5-4" ic plumbing?

[John B]

I still think if you're starting from scratch, go straight to 2.5" though! Even if you have a 2" turbo outlet and a 2.25" TB mouth?

[Pat]

Even if you have a 2" turbo outlet and a 2.25" TB mouth?

If you have a 2" outlet you're probably running a turbo with a stock T3 compressor cover, right? I highly doubt 2.25 would be an issue if you're running a T3 series compressor wheel.

I don't see a problem with the larger IC tubing with the 2" outlet and stock TB. I think that if you're starting from scratch, you might as well use 2.5". Costs the same, it can't hurt and if you decide later to go big turbo, big IC, etc you'll never have to wonder if your IC plumbing is an issue.

[John B]

Yeah, Super 60 and 46mm TB.

[cordes]

If you have a 2" outlet you're probably running a turbo with a stock T3 compressor cover, right? I highly doubt 2.25 would be an issue if you're running a T3 series compressor wheel.

I don't see a problem with the larger IC tubing with the 2" outlet and stock TB. I think that if you're starting from scratch, you might as well use 2.5". Costs the same, it can't hurt and if you decide later to go big turbo, big IC, etc you'll never have to wonder if your IC plumbing is an issue.


I know that the To4E covers are 2", and I believe that 8valves stated that his GT30R cover is 2" also.

[8valves]

I know that the To4E covers are 2", and I believe that 8valves stated that his GT30R cover is 2" also.

Yeah, 2 or 2.25, I can't remember right now. Yes, I agree with Pat on this now, if you're still limited by the stock TB and a T3 compressor side I don't think you have much to worry about in this area if you're already at a 2.25 inch piping. Good discussion though everyone.

Aaron Miller

[Pat]

Yeah, 2 or 2.25, I can't remember right now. Yes, I agree with Pat on this now, if you're still limited by the stock TB and a T3 compressor side I don't think you have much to worry about in this area if you're already at a 2.25 inch piping. Good discussion though everyone.

Aaron Miller

I'm almost positive that the outlet on my T04E is 2.25".

Agreed...great discussion!

[turbovanman²]

I bought a Diesel mag a month ago, the reason it had an article on using vegatable oil so figured it could come in handy. Anyhow, Gale Banks is doing a bunch of hop up articles and also has a myth/fact column. He brings up the black smoke is wasted fuel, and then explains why the stock IC's are bad, IE the Powerstroke IC then goes on about IC piping and saying larger and not kinked is king due to volume, gases condensing and flow. I will reread it again tonight.

[cordes]

I'm almost positive that the outlet on my T04E is 2.25".

Agreed...great discussion!

I have two, and they both have measured 2".

[Putter]

A friend of mine with a 5valve 1.8T audi is making well over the 300hp range with an exhaust manifold that makes ours look like a million bucks, stock intercooler and and inlet hose/pip in the 45-50 mm range. I think pipe sizing is important, but generally overfocused on. Is there more power to free up from his combination? Absolulty, but the boost pressures he's making this power on still runs pump gas, so that moves us to our next step. 8VALVE HEADS SUCK!

The chevy guy in me (if there is any) says this should all boil down to $/hp. Intercooler piping and silicone is very expensive for marginal gains. There has to be cheaper power elsewhere.

[cordes]

The chevy guy in me (if there is any) says this should all boil down to $/hp. Intercooler piping and silicone is very expensive for marginal gains. There has to be cheaper power elsewhere.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that one should run out an change their IC piping, but that they should strive for what is ideal for their setup when starting from scratch.

[whywoody]

While building end tanks for my IC,I planned for 3'' inlet/outlet using the theory that at WOT the larger diam. pipes would effectively form a larger plenumb.I figured that they would work like a hydraulic accumulator does,to help stabilize pressure and smooth pressure spikes as the flow suddenly increases and decreases through throttle movement.I think this might help with any possible compressor surge problems too.
I am using a stock long runner stratus intake on my hybrid engine,which will help with any street driven throttle response issues.
SMP spoke of this earlier in the thread,unless I read into his post wrong....

[8valves]

8VALVE HEADS SUCK!


As much as you're right, ANY possible options to increase overall VE is fine by me. The easier it is for that crap head to move air the more power you'll make on that crap head. It's a super non-scientific idea, but it has gotten me pretty far.

This even opens up another can of worms... even with our "crap" heads... how much power is enough for a street car? You have the issue of traction to deal with. At 370 whp I have lost races from 3rd gear rolls because the tires go up as soon as boost hits... without provisions to hook harder what's the point on having 500 or more!? A dumb argument really, as I continue to try to make more power even now and deal with traction later, but it is something to consider for everyone.

My point is that the 8V cars seem more than capable to reach the limits of a street TD chassis setup, so far at least. I guess this is off topic, disregard or maybe I'll make a new post about it sometime soon.

Aaron Miller

[WOP'R]

with the power that most of us are putting out i dont think any of us would notice ANY difference from 2 1/4 to 2 1/2. run whatever is cheaper. one thing you should try is go talk to aluminium fab companies (ones that do railings and what not) they are able to get their pipes for cheap and some places have a mandrel bender in house.

In the end i went with 2 3/8 and it fits and looks (who cares) great! oh and it was free:eyebrows:

[Tony Hanna]

Here's a stupid question.
For those of us that are adding our extra fuel via extra injectors or alky injection, how would bigger intercooler plumbing affect fuel atomization and distribution?

[turbovanman²]

I would say it wouldn't matter as your spraying fuel just before the throttle body.

[Tony Hanna]

Good point! I guess the increase in velocity as the air passed through the TB and intake would make it a non-issue right?

[SpoolinGLH]

With all this said, Aluminum piping would be the best to use because i would think that it disperses heat faster???

[John B]

oh and it was free:eyebrows:

Ouch! You've got a wicked mean streak there. I spent way too much on custom tubing only to learn here that it's too small. I guess we need to expand to large tubing as quickly as possible after leaving the turbo outlet and neck it back down right before the TB.

[cordes]

With all this said, Aluminum piping would be the best to use because i would think that it disperses heat faster???

I like it for the heat disapation factor, and also the fact that when it corrodes, it does not flake of like rust off of steel.

[GLHS377]

big pipes are a decent solution.
better is the staggered size offered by SMP, it crudely approximates the king.
the king is smoothly tapered plumbing. you can't beat just one piece smoothly contoured and tapered composite pipes. there's ~10% hp gains from this. about half of that if you're moving from a decent setup that has minimal # of bends, transitional sizes, joints and couplings. just lining up all the plumbing is worth the first 5% of that. seen it and sorted it on many blown installations.
same principles apply to intercoolers. a good example of the 90% solution is SMP's race car. simple, easy to make and very effective linear taper. spending many times what they did for that in time and cash would net them what, 50 hp? they've got bigger fish to fry, as most of us do, like traction.
the composite plumbing for a small car woull cost 700+ bux.

on a streetcar, if you have <1psi compressor to TB pressure drop, you're golden! conversely, if you have such a lousy setup that your compressor is pushed into an inneficient region, you need to sort that out, or get a more effecient compressor! whatever's more cost effective. though you could do both, and be ahead of the game.

[Frank]

Very well said! So many people just yell out, turn up the boost to get your more power dont realize how many times they end up pushing themselves into really trashy/dirty power and the claim they are out of turbo.


Frank

[super60dodge]

I would go 2.5 from turbo to intercooler and 3" from IC to 58mm throttle body;)

remember it's all about efficiency :nod:


I talked to my father-in-law this evening abought going this route with my CSX-T's FMIC. We are going to try our hardest to make it work. We'll be using SS tubing and tig welding all but a few connections to allow for engine flex. I think I'll put the BOV on the 2.5" I/C tubing that way I know I will not have clearance issues with the hood or inlet pipe/filter to the turbo.

Thanks SMP:thumb:

Joe

[turbovanman²]

I am going to try it also, if I can. The IC is getting the brackets welded on this week and just waiting for T-Nation's connectors and clamps.

[Dave]

I just ordered a bunch of 2.5" aluminum intercooler piping for the van. Now the intercooler's inlets are 3" on each side, will this transition matter either way? Also I'm using a 52mm throttle body, so I'm HOPING 2.5" pipe will fit nicely on the TB with the silicone couplers.

[Frank]

I just ordered a bunch of 2.5" aluminum intercooler piping for the van. Now the intercooler's inlets are 3" on each side, will this transition matter either way? Also I'm using a 52mm throttle body, so I'm HOPING 2.5" pipe will fit nicely on the TB with the silicone couplers.

You will be fine. I am going to convert to 3" when I go larger then a 52mm TB. since you are using a 52mm, you will be just fine.


Frank

[Dave]

You will be fine. I am going to convert to 3" when I go larger then a 52mm TB. since you are using a 52mm, you will be just fine.


Frank

Sweet, thanks Frank. You're helping me out quite a bit on this project. :nod:

[Whorse]

This is a lot like the testing we do at work on our Nutrient Injection Systems.

Using Venturi's, we can change pressure drop and flow to create a vaccuum and suck another liquid into the system, in our case nutrients and acid (for greenhouse fertilization).

This effectively causes the water to 'boil' at that point due to the expansion of the fluid, limiting the pressure below the venturi. With our current setup, we get a 40psi pressure drop which will draw up to 5 litres per minute.

That said, reverse the effect, as we don't want pressure drop and limited flow. Since the same volume of air will be under more pressure in a more confined space, it would seem that having larger piping would cost you boost, and spool up time as there is more volume to fill as the pressure increases. However, with less restriction, flow is improved, which is often overlooked in forced induction applications.

Think of blowing your lungs full of air through a McDonalds straw, and then blowing the same lung capacity through no straw with your mouth wide open. The air will leave your lungs much faster. If you could continually supply your lungs with air (like a turbocharger on a vehicle), you would be flowing greatly more volume than if you kept the pressure up by blowing through that straw.

The end result, is more air is available to your engine, which is the purpose of turbocharging in the first place.

[Dave]

So it's kind of like how you want the exhaust manifold not to loose any heat because the increased temperature increases pressure, which makes it flow faster to the turbine.

Basically if we have more pressure in a 2.25" I/C pipe versus less pressure in a 2.5" pipe, the 2.25" will not require the turbo to work as hard and we will have quicker boost response, right? But! If the pressure is higher that means the molecules are more condensed and rubbing together creating friction and heating up... so if the pipe is more confined wont the intake charge be higher?

[Whorse]

So it's kind of like how you want the exhaust manifold not to loose any heat because the increased temperature increases pressure, which makes it flow faster to the turbine.

Basically if we have more pressure in a 2.25" I/C pipe versus less pressure in a 2.5" pipe, the 2.25" will not require the turbo to work as hard and we will have quicker boost response, right? But! If the pressure is higher that means the molecules are more condensed and rubbing together creating friction and heating up... so if the pipe is more confined wont the intake charge be higher?


Sort of. The end goal is getting the most air in your cylinder. Our combined factors include what you mentioned, namely intake temperature, line pressure, and flow rate. For example, I believe that a S60 VNT is as efficient at about 12psi as my VNT25 is at 18psi, because it's larger and flows that much more.

When you increase or decrease the size of the pipe, the flow isn't greatly affected, but the pressure is. The source (in our case the turbo compressor) will put out a constant flow provided it is supplied with constant energy (not hitting the gas to spool it up more). If the pipe coming out of the turbo is a 2" diameter, and then it suddenly jumps to a 3" diameter, there won't be any more or less air flowing in the line, but the air will be at a higher pressure in the smaller pipe, as there is less space to fit the same amount.

Of course, being that we're discussing an intake system on a vehicle, there are more factors than just the intercooler pipes. The throttle body can be a bottleneck, as can the shape and size of the intake manifold, as well as the design, and of course, the ports in the head, which in our vehicles is the ultimate bottleneck. Porting the head opens up the biggest restriction to the flow of air, which increases our overall flow, which means more air getting into your cylinders.

Without factoring in expansion, heat dissipation, and air resistance, it makes sense that the more air we get into the cylinder before the valves close, the more powerful the combustion will be when the cylinder compresses, as we have effectively put more air into the same space, which is why we love our turbos in the first place.

[turbovanman²]

Would wrapping with exhaust heat wrap or using pipe insulation on the hose from the IC to TB help any?

[cordes]

Would wrapping with exhaust heat wrap or using pipe insulation on the hose from the IC to TB help any?

I have though about that, also what about the aluminum fins that you can find in some computers and electronics. Those would really dissipate some heat.

Does anyone know where one could pick up some carbon fiber tubing for a reasonable price? That would be a great option I would think.

[Whorse]

I think more important than wrapping it, you'd want to simply shield it from the engine, but supply it with ambient outside air (the outside of the pipe). Maybe some large ducting connected to a shroud that draws air through the rad and IC, and then to the intake side of your engine bay would help. Sounds like a Gus Special.

[turbovanman²]

Well, this is what I see, you want the supply pipe left alone as the outside air would help cool the hot air, you would want to insulate the outlet pipe as now the IC has done its job and you don't want the engine, fans etc rewarming it back up, especially if your sitting in traffic, staging lanes etc.

[Whorse]

I don't think that the intake pipe would be that substantial, as we're intercooling here anyways, but ideally, the entire intake system would be isolated from engine heat.

[turbovanman²]

I don't think that the intake pipe would be that substantial, as we're intercooling here anyways, but ideally, the entire intake system would be isolated from engine heat.

I don't know about that, ever felt the upper pipe after sitting in traffic, it gets pretty warm.

[Whorse]

The top pipe does get warm, but not like the bottom one before the intercooler (at least in my car it's that way). Generally, the air intake is going to be further from the heat than the intercooler plumbing anyways, so it wouldn't really be much of an issue.

If you really wanted to get creative, get larger pipes, and fin the entire length of the pipe and throw a giant rad fan in there and see how cold you can get it.

[WOP'R]

anyone thought of a water jacket system for the IC-TB pipe? ie. welding a larger pipe to the IC pipe and having a flow of water going through it (like a watercooled intercooler) or maybe some kind of really cold liquid or substance like dry ice.

im thinking about doing this to my brothers shadow, but im not too sure what kind of liquid or system we should try

after looking at my distiller and getting smashed of the hooch i thought why not!

[Mario]

If you have a hot upper pipe, you either have an inefficient intercooler or a heat soaked one.

Thermal wraping the intercooler outlet pipe I'm sure can add a bit of efficiency to one's set-up.

[Whorse]

Keep in mind that the intercooler will be working a lot better at speed, and when under boost, so when the car is idling the pipe will warm up from the engine temperature, and cool down when in use from the cold air flow.

[turbovanman²]

Keep in mind that the intercooler will be working a lot better at speed, and when under boost, so when the car is idling the pipe will warm up from the engine temperature, and cool down when in use from the cold air flow.


Thats what I am talking about, so if you wrap it or insulate it, it should work better-discuss!

[Whorse]

I agree that wrapping it will help somewhat, but I think that at speed it won't make much of a difference because it's going to be cooled anyways. Perhaps someone who knows more than I do about thermodynamics would be able to give some better insight on the effect engine temperature has on air inside intercooler piping. I also wonder if metal exhaust pipes would be better or worse for this than the stock silicone and rubber hoses.

[turbovanman²]

Everybody seems to like Aluminium IC pipe, I guess it either sheds heat better or retains the cold better??? Either way, I need to figure this out as I am ordering stainless tubing and if I am wrapping it, there is no need to buy it.

[GLHSKEN]

I'll be going stainless as well.. Gotta like the "bling" factor and when you are "rolling" I do not see air in the "tube" for .5 seconds making a substantial difference.

[Mario]

Problem with most stainless is the weight...if your concious of it. Very thin wall polished aluminum is my choice.

[GLHSKEN]

weight is over the front wheels...

[Garret]

I don't think the air is the I/C pipes long enough to make a difference, as well the top pipe on my car after one WOT blast is cold to the touch

[cordes]

I guess it either sheds heat better or retains the cold better??? Either way, I need to figure this out as I am ordering stainless tubing and if I am wrapping it, there is no need to buy it.

There is no such thing as cold energy, and therefore it can not be retained. Cold is merely a term that we use to describe a lack of heat energy.

Yes, al does both absorb and shed heat energy more quickly than steel.

It will come up to engine compartment temp much sooner than steel, but when it releases the heat in to the charge air, it will do it much more quickly and be cooler faster than steel.

I run al on my cars when I am not getting it for free.

[Whorse]

If you want to go all out get some titanium, as it's strength allows it to be used in much thinner applications. Lots of money though, but if you want the 'ballin' look that's the way to go.

[Alberta_Daytona]

ya no kidding...1 guy around here was selling SUPER cheap titanium bends in 3"-4" sizes...I mean super cheap.

U bends in 3" pipe for 20$ Canadian.
My friend bought them all before I could get him the cash..

[WOP'R]

insulating the pipe could do more harm than good.

by insulating it, it traps the heat that is with in the pipe. But thats what i think.

BUT one thing is for sure Simon, i would go with thin wall aluminium, reason being is because it doesnt stay as hot as long as steel does. and its cheaper!:nod:

[Whorse]

Yeah I'd say shielding or a shroud like you have for your air filter, just larger to block off that side of the engine bay, and a shroud to direct flow from your rad fan to that side. Should keep it nice and cool.

[Ground Rat]

OK guys, I'm a rookie and need some advice. I am planning on installing this IC on my T1 minivan soon:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/groundrat2/Minivan/IMG_1581.jpg

The inlet and outlet only measure 1.75" and I would like to run 2.5" piping after reading this thread. Should I find a shop to weld on a 2.5" inlet and outlet?

I was in Home Depot today and saw these transition fittings:

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402785_4.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402775-wc_4.jpg

If I can find them in 2.5" do you think one would work better than the other?

[8valves]

If those are Fernco couplers like I think they are, I've never had them last for anything more than 10 psi anyways, but some people might have had better luck. Just got get some diesel truck radiator hose and exhaust piping and call it a day!

Aaron Miller

[turbovanman²]

OK guys, I'm a rookie and need some advice. I am planning on installing this IC on my T1 minivan soon:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/groundrat2/Minivan/IMG_1581.jpg

The inlet and outlet only measure 1.75" and I would like to run 2.5" piping after reading this thread. Should I find a shop to weld on a 2.5" inlet and outlet?

I was in Home Depot today and saw these transition fittings:

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402785_4.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402775-wc_4.jpg

If I can find them in 2.5" do you think one would work better than the other?

You'll get up the block and they blow, been there, done that. To get bigger pipes welded on, will probably cost you a few bucks and if your basically a stock engine, that will be fine.

Just get some silicone adapters or just have a exhaust shop make you some adapters, I took some 2 inch pipe and expanded it to 2 1/4 to make adapters, and yesterday, expanded my 2.5 inch DP to fit inside 3 inch pipe, :thumb:



Oh, I am going with Stainless, Adam does't have 3 inch aluminium pipe so if the price is right, Stainless it is, :thumb:

[Alberta_Daytona]

If those are Fernco couplers like I think they are, I've never had them last for anything more than 10 psi anyways, but some people might have had better luck. Just got get some diesel truck radiator hose and exhaust piping and call it a day!

Aaron Miller

ya...at 14 psi mine were all ripped to ---- within a week.

[Aries_Turbo]

OK guys, I'm a rookie and need some advice. I am planning on installing this IC on my T1 minivan soon:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/groundrat2/Minivan/IMG_1581.jpg

The inlet and outlet only measure 1.75" and I would like to run 2.5" piping after reading this thread. Should I find a shop to weld on a 2.5" inlet and outlet?

I was in Home Depot today and saw these transition fittings:

http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402785_4.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/402775-wc_4.jpg

If I can find them in 2.5" do you think one would work better than the other?

Thats a probe intercooler right? I wouldnt bother modding that intercooler in the first place. id just use some 1 7/8" radiator hose to plumb it in to get you started with intercooling and then find an intercooler thats a little better to use. the reason is that the probe cooler doesnt have any internal finning to help cool the air that well.

id get an SRT4 cooler or two and try to squeeze that in there. then go for some bigger pipes.

Good luck,

Brian

[slasky]

It is a probe intercooler. I ran one on my charger when I first got it. It is very restrictiv and does not cool well. It is better than nothing but I would not go through the trouble, and expense, of modifying it to run bigger pipes.

[Ground Rat]

OK, thanks for the tip guys. It was free and my mini isn't intercooled yet, so I wanted to throw something on there for cheap. I will start looking for some better ICs. Thanks again.