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kwiksilver
01-17-2007, 09:16 AM
Recently picked up a 89 lebaron convertible with a 2.5L turbo and auto trans. the motor leaks and smokes badly and the auto trans slips.
I have decided to swap in a 2.2L turbo and manual trans from a wrecked 88 lebaron. the 2.2L and manual have already been dropped from the wrecked car, I have the computer, clutch pedal assembly as well as the shifter and cables.

Now, on to the questions; what sort of problems might I run into? I am not entirely sure the 5 spd shifter will swap into the console on the automatic car.
Also, what are some cheap and/or easy mods I can do? (ie more boost, turbo upgrade, exhaust upgrade, maybe an intercooler with used parts, throttle body upgrade, etc). I plan on replacing the timing belt and clutch, on the 2.2L, while the motor is out.

mcsvt
01-17-2007, 09:49 AM
The 5spd shifter should bolt up no problem in your console. May have to drill holes for the cables, but there should be dimples already in the places you need to drill.

As for upgrades, I would go over the 2.2 first and make sure it is in top condition then start adding on to it. i.e. bigger exhaust, mbc, intercooler...

88_pacifica
01-17-2007, 09:49 AM
First, tell us what your goals are(stock or slightly more?) and your automotive experience/abilities. Is this your first major engine swap, etc? The reason we ask is it will let us know how detailed we need to get and what we have to "lay out" for you...

remember though before you get to far along, the SMEC's are different among many other things. Is this a pre '88 2.2?

kwiksilver
01-17-2007, 11:11 AM
I consider myself an advanced shadetree mechanic, having done numerous engine swaps, automatic trans overhauls and some car racing.

however I have limited experience with FWD or Chryslers and Zero experience with working on turbo cars.

as I mentioned in my first post, the 2.2L motor is from a wrecked 88 lebaron. as far as I can tell its a Turbo I motor.
the car had 145K on it when it was T-boned 6 yrs ago and has been sitting since, so I am not sure what the condition of the motor or trans is yet. I do plan on putting a new timing belt and clutch before the motor gets dropped in.

the 89 lebaron the motor is going in will be a daily driver for the wife to commute to work, so I wasnt planning on going too wild with the mods.
I was curious about some simple stuff that could be done while the motor was out and the stuff was accessible.

SMEC? I assume you mean the engine computer?
I pulled one module from the Drivers side inner fender, I assumed that was the engine computer. are there other modules I will need?

what other "things" might I need to swap?

88_pacifica
01-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Perfect, good background fill in for us. First because you are going from a 2.5 to a 2.2 the logic module(SMEC) is going to need to be changed to account for the different timing curves, fuel supply demand, etc. If it was pre 88 then it would have had 2 logic modules as well as a different wiring schematic. Since it's post 87 it has only one logic module(the one on the fender). If it is indeed a T1 then it has the smaller injectors, as well as a "slightly" less durable block. The stock rods are typically undesirable for anything other than stock hp levels.Then there's the different configurations going from a common block to a non common block(pre '89 for T1's). If you take the entire accessory assembly out of the old 88 lebaron with the motor then you should be ok. Otherwise the cooling(water pump) is reversed much like GM did in the 90's. I would recommend leaving it all stock except for using your 2.5 injectors and adding an intercooler. Much more than this will make it become less than reliable, especially if it isn't maintained regularly and so on. Remember this is a 20 year old drivetrain that's been sitting... Others will chime in now and I will have more to come in a bit... :D

t3rse
01-17-2007, 12:27 PM
yes, the smec is the computer...

look at www.thedodgegarage.com for a ton of info...

a t1 motor has a log intake that's really small versus the the standard 1 or 2 piece that has a blocky plenum up top and the throttle body on the 1 or 2 piece faces the front of the car, usually black...

you can extract a bit of power easily from it, but you won't be able to go too wild without a good intercooler and proper gauges, especially air/fuel and boost...this will tell you your mixture conditions in the combustion chambers and show you how much more boost you can extract...you must check out the above mentioned site for easy mods and read carefully, as to go above 14.7 psi you will need some hacks....but especially BE VERY CAREFUL OF YOUR FUEL MIXTURE!!! if you go lean, you can punch holes in pistons, beat your crank out of round, blow head gaskets and other very bad stuff...

it's hard to get dangerous with exhaust gas temperatures under 18#, but an EGT gauge is a good one if you plan on getting ballsy...

also check out http://www.gusmahon.org/index_main.htm

other good references are www.turbododge.com and www.boostedmopar.com ....the latter has a lot of good how-to's on basic work...

88_pacifica
01-17-2007, 12:40 PM
also, as a side note. If you are using this as a DD I'd recommend getting another auto trans to eliminate the pains of converting it to a manual. Unless of course, she/you wants a stick shift for whatever reason or balls-out performance. A replacement turbo trans is relatively cheap and lots of people "chuck" them trying to get stick shift for performance... Shifting tends to get old quick on a 4 cyl in traffic... just my .02 cents...

kwiksilver
01-18-2007, 02:46 PM
both the wife and I want a manaul trans.

besides, no self respecting turbo car should have an automatic.... :D

Mopar_Nutz
01-18-2007, 03:21 PM
Not to mention that im my history, a 5 speed is FAR more reliable than any stock auto trans in these cars. Spirited driving on a stock trans ends up burning them up within months. 5 speed all the way! haha

boostboy
01-18-2007, 03:36 PM
Not to mention that im my history, a 5 speed is FAR more reliable than any stock auto trans in these cars. Spirited driving on a stock trans ends up burning them up within months. 5 speed all the way! haha


The only reason that is true Ian is the way we Drive!

Mopar_Nutz
01-18-2007, 03:48 PM
The only reason that is true Ian is the way we Drive!

Thats why I said spirited ;) Drive like a granny and it'll last 10 yrs or so. Drive it harder (not rag on it) and you'll get a couple months. Stock trans and stock power. They just don't seem to like those full boost shifts. I know they can be built up. But my last one was a fresh rebuilt chrysler trans with about 10,000 kms on it and it crapped out in a month on 14 psi...

88_pacifica
01-18-2007, 04:08 PM
both the wife and I want a manaul trans.

besides, no self respecting turbo car should have an automatic.... :D

Here we go again... :confused: Maybe so... unless you have a GN! :D :thumb:

kwiksilver
01-18-2007, 05:47 PM
sorry guys... didn't mean to start a holy war!

back to my engine swap, I have more questions;
swing valve...what exactly is a swing valve and will I have swap the swing valve from the 89 motor to the 88 motor? while we are on that subject, I read that 89 up cars already have 2.5" down pipes, is this correct?

Axles... I assume the manual axles are different from the automatic axles.
the car the manual trans came out of was T-boned very hard, the drivers side axle is in good shape, but the passenger side literally broke in half.

Directconnection
01-18-2007, 07:32 PM
smec compueters were an '88 and '89 thing. But an '88 T-I engine was a 2.2 An '89 T-I engine was a 2.5. The '89 and new engines used different accessories and such along with the early style block. So... if using the '88 2.2 T-I, use all supporting hardware and accessories and make sure you use the '88 injectors as well. The computer is calibrated for the lower flowing '88 2.2 T-I injectors, as where the '89 T-I injectors flow more and are the same as the intercooled 2.2 T-II engine's injectors which is good, but they need to be tuned with the engine at hand if using them.

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 09:35 AM
Uh oh... make sure the trans is ok! if it was a side impact it may hace "pushed" the intermediate shaft into the trans quite a bit before it snapped and that'd be really bad. :(

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 09:49 AM
smec compueters were an '88 and '89 thing. But an '88 T-I engine was a 2.2 An '89 T-I engine was a 2.5. The '89 and new engines used different accessories and such along with the early style block. So... if using the '88 2.2 T-I, use all supporting hardware and accessories and make sure you use the '88 injectors as well. The computer is calibrated for the lower flowing '88 2.2 T-I injectors, as where the '89 T-I injectors flow more and are the same as the intercooled 2.2 T-II engine's injectors which is good, but they need to be tuned with the engine at hand if using them.


thanks for the tip Steve. Like I said in my first post, I pulled the SMEC from the 88 parts car when I dropped the engine/trans and K member.
the entire 88 2.2 motor is getting dropped in as a unit, so the injectors will remain on the intake.

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 09:51 AM
Uh oh... make sure the trans is ok! if it was a side impact it may hace "pushed" the intermediate shaft into the trans quite a bit before it snapped and that'd be really bad. :(

Good point... I will be checking the trans out today and probably putting in a clutch.

so how about my additional questions? are the axles different between manual and auto cars?

what about the swing valve? I havent crawled under the 89 car yet, so I have no clue what size pipe it actually has.

mcsvt
01-19-2007, 10:00 AM
Axles will be the same between cars. You shouldn't have a problem using your old axles.

Swing valve is bolted to the turbine housing. It is what the downpipe connects to, also where the WG arm attaches. 89 T-II cars had 2.5" swingvalves from my understanding. If your car was T-I originally it probably wasn't 2.5". You should just leave the swingvalves alone. Usually when you go to take them off you WILL break a bolt or 5... Ask me how I know :)

Good luck :thumb:

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 10:04 AM
Not sure on the CV's since both the one's I've had were auto's. I know there are like 4 different styles though... As for the swingvalve, this seems to be a TD term. Your '89 has a 2.5" SV and your '88 has a 2.25" SV. Keep the '89 for sure, but just see which turbo has the least amount of play obviously and use it. Or, if you want you can rebuild them pretty easily if they both have a significant amount of play. They're easy to rebuild if you pay damn close attention and have a fair amount of mechanical aptitude. Also the stock DP on your '89 should be 2.5", but it has the "crushed" bends(not mandrel bent) which hurts flow pretty badly. For a stock scenarion though, I wouldn't worry about it too much though... especially since we're on a budget here. :D

edit: whoops... a little late here! :D

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 10:05 AM
Axles will be the same between cars. You shouldn't have a problem using your old axles.

Swing valve is bolted to the turbine housing. It is what the downpipe connects to, also where the WG arm attaches. 89 T-II cars had 2.5" swingvalves from my understanding. If your car was T-I originally it probably wasn't 2.5". You should just leave the swingvalves alone. Usually when you go to take them off you WILL break a bolt or 5... Ask me how I know :)

Good luck :thumb:

thats good news on the axles, I think the 89 car had new (reman) axles in it when we got it.

ahh, so it was T-II cars with the 2.5" swing valve and exhaust pipe. will I get any noticable improvement upgrading to these parts ?

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 10:10 AM
Also, you can remove the SV bolts, but soak them in kerosene and follow behind that with PB Blaster. Let it sit over night and then if you have a regular acetylene torch heat them up and go behind it again with PB... If the bolt heads are in decent shape, they'll spin right out. Kerosene is an old trick the they uses at lots ot turbo rebuild shops. Gets out almost all rusty bolts because it "eats" at the rust... These are both T1 cars so they both have the Mitsu turbo's correct? The SV setup isn't the same like it is with the Garrett's... Are you planning on a Garrett?

mcsvt
01-19-2007, 10:12 AM
Yes exhaust upgrades are worth it. Just be prepared for the swingvalve bolts to break. Thing is T-I cars have the mits turbo. I am not so familiar with what swingvalves work on them. TM member Garret made a custom 3" for his and was very pleased with the results. I just put a custom 3" SV on my T-II and am very happy.

A little more on axles. Axles in the earlyer cars were a different spline then the later cars. Keeping the axles you had in the car before will not be an issue. There are different setups available though. Equal length and Unequal length. But again, I would just continue to use your axles.

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 10:23 AM
at this point, I had planned on upgrading the turbo eventually, but not any time in the near future. I have a buddy that works for Borg Warner turbo systems in Asheville NC, so turbo parts and expertise are cheap and plentiful.

now that you mentioned it, I dont think I have seen a 2.5" swing valve to the mitsu turbo, only the garrett.

on the axles, the 88 manual trans has the long/short set up. no idea on what set up the 89 auto car has.

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 10:26 AM
ok.. then the setup should swap right over easily. There's no int shaft to deal with. As for the SV they are 2 diff sizes, but you can tell by looking at the inside diameter. Even though people say 2.25 and 2.5 the ID is usually slightly less than that. you should be able to tell pretty easily visually though..

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 11:21 AM
this talk of swing valves and turbos, raises a quesiton.

would a 2.5" swing valve from a garrett turbo bolt onto the smaller mitsubishi turbo?

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 12:02 PM
No...

kwiksilver
01-19-2007, 12:24 PM
Damn... you sure?

I got a welder and some tools... :D

88_pacifica
01-19-2007, 01:00 PM
Damn... you sure?

I got a welder and some tools... :D

yep, pretty damn sure... plus the whole setup is different altogether. If I could make them work right, I'd be $$. :D

mcsvt
01-19-2007, 01:25 PM
Make your own swing valve then :) Cut up a stock one and make it as big as you want. Check out my gallery for pics of my 3"

Directconnection
01-19-2007, 01:46 PM
'87 and '88 swingvalves are 2.25" The only T-II to get the 2.5" and the only car to get the 2.5" sw was in '89 on the shelby daytona and lebaron gtc bot t-II cars.

Orangetona
01-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Your 89 2.5L engine should have the 2.5" swingvalve. The 89 2.5L engine is the only engine (other than the 2.2TII) to get the 2.5" SV and 2.5" matching downpipe.

So what im trying to say is your 89 mistu turbo has the 2.5" swingvalve and 2.5" matching downpipe.

kwiksilver
01-21-2007, 04:20 PM
Interesting information. Its gonna be a few days before I can get the 89 car under cover to start working on it.

Yesterday(saturday) I got the timing belt changed on the 2.2, replace the valve cover gasket and managed to break the valve cover while tightening the bolts down. also changed the engine oil, seperated the engine and trans to replace the clutch. while the trans was apart, I drained the nasty ATF out and filled it with some fresh 5W30.

I did get the swing valve off the 2.2L with no trouble.

TopDollar69
01-21-2007, 11:14 PM
Also, to clear up some previous bad info, the factory 2.5 inch down pipe does not have crimp style bends, its all mandrel bent. An 88 2.2L TI engine does not have a log intake, its a one piece blow through just like your 89 2.5L. Both engines will have mitsu turbos like orangetona said. The 89 mitsu does have a mitsu specific 2.5 inch swing valve. Hope this helps.

kwiksilver
01-22-2007, 11:23 AM
exactly what I wanted to hear.

Orangetona
01-23-2007, 07:22 PM
Also, to clear up some previous bad info, the factory 2.5 inch down pipe does not have crimp style bends, its all mandrel bent. An 88 2.2L TI engine does not have a log intake, its a one piece blow through just like your 89 2.5L. Both engines will have mitsu turbos like orangetona said. The 89 mitsu does have a mitsu specific 2.5 inch swing valve. Hope this helps.

100% correct. I forgot to mention the downpipe being mandrel bent.

If you decided to run a Garret turbo, you would need a Garret specific swingvalve. Or you could make your own as large as you wanted. :D

Also, you mentioned breaking the valvecover tightening the bolts? They dont need to be tightened much. I dont know the specs but it must be somewhere in the 12 - 20flbs range. Someone here can tell you exactly what it is. For the most part it doesnt matter too much, but overtightening it will believe it or not, make it leak.

kwiksilver
01-24-2007, 11:12 AM
you mentioned breaking the valvecover tightening the bolts? They dont need to be tightened much. I dont know the specs but it must be somewhere in the 12 - 20flbs range. Someone here can tell you exactly what it is. For the most part it doesnt matter too much, but overtightening it will believe it or not, make it leak.

Torque wrench was registering about 7-8 ftlbs when the cover cracked.
The gasket was seating correctly and there was still a gap, in the corners, around the cam towers. I was merely snugging the bolts to get the gap to close. Its very possible the gasket twisted on me, I had a difficult time getting it in place with out it falling out of the groove.

kwiksilver
01-29-2007, 02:59 PM
Ok... the engine swap is under way. the 2.2L turbo got a new timing belt and valve cover gasket. the 5spd trans got a new clutch and some fresh 5w30 oil.

Got the 89 in the garage over the weekend and pulled 2.5L turbo/auto out.
so far, the only major issue I have discovered is the O2 sensor between the two.
the 88 uses a 3 wire sensor, the 89 uses a 4 wire sensor and the 4 wire 02 connector harness on the 89 is melted.

this makes me wonder, since I am using the 88 SMEC, what the difference is?
Is it important the 4th wire is there? and what does it do? I assume its something related to the sensor heater.